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Arik Hesseldahl, a writer for Forbes and Business Week, blasts the latest Microsoft commercials, writing, "Rather than running ads that seem clever at first but really aren't, the Windows guys ought to take the hint and just build better computers." An Apple spokesperson adds, "A PC is no bargain when it doesn't do what you want."  (Source: YouSendIt)

Mr. Hesseldahl's dream machine is the Apple 17" MacBook Pro, which comes at a wallet-breaking price of $2,899.  (Source: Apple)
An Apple spokesperson fires back over Microsoft's latest commercials

Microsoft has been on a roll, taking its fight to Apple with a trio of Laptop Hunter commercials. The commercials were designed by Crispin Porter+Bogusky that show average Joes (or Janes) looking for laptops and choosing PCs over Macs, while casting aspersions on the Macs in a purportedly unbiased independent study.  The first ad, with Laptop Hunter Lauren, still has yet to be surpassed in popularity, but all the commercials resonate on some level with customers who are less willing to pay the luxury prices associated with Apple-brand models.

However, Apple and its supporters won't go down quietly.  Business Week's Arik Hesseldahl, along with an Apple spokesperson have called out the Windows supporters in the tech community arguing that they don't understand quality and economics, and that they are picking inferior machines.  He writes, "Yes, $699 beats the $2,800 you'd pay for a Mac with a 17-in. screen. But when it comes to PCs, there's still a great deal more to buy."

He says that antivirus software needed to protect PCs against "nasty viruses, worms, and other malware lurking on the Internet" is another $50/year in expenses.  He says that Lauren will end up paying $150 over 3 years for such protection.  He writes, "No need for antivirus on the Mac."

Of course, Apple recently recommended its users purchase an antivirus program and the platform is becoming increasingly vulnerable to application level exploits, so this isn't entirely accurate, but that doesn't stop Mr. Hesseldahl as he tacks on more charges.  He equates an out-of-warranty service with Best Buy's Geek Squad ($129) with a free diagnosis at the Genius Bar in Apple's retail stores.

He tacks on more fees for the iLife software suite.  He says that Lauren's machine comes with Muvee Reveal ($80) and CyberLink DVD suite ($104), but that there's lots missing.  He says a PC equivalent of iLife would also require a copy of Adobe Photoshop Elements with Photoshop.com Plus membership ($140), Sonic Solutions' Roxio Creator 2009 ($100) and the Garage Band-equivalent Cubase Sequel ($100).

He adds up these extras ($619), with the cost of the computer ($699), and writes, "Add it all up and it's not hard to imagine Lauren's $699 computer costing something closer to $1,500."

While the math is a bit curious he does offer some technically accurate points, arguing that features like battery life (8 hrs. versus 2.5 hrs. for the HP, by his estimates) and superior screen make the 17-inch MacBook Pro (his model of choice) more than worth the $1,000+ difference between it and the Windows notebook with his extras tacked on.

He concludes, "Even if Lauren doesn't care about pixels and multimedia software, her machine still doesn't measure up when it comes to overall consumer satisfaction. No less an authority than Consumer Reports rated Lauren's computer fourth in a class of six with 17- to 18-in. displays. The MacBook Pro was tops, despite its higher price."

And to top it off, he gets word from Apple itself blasting the new commercials.  An Apple spokesperson, Bill Evans, comments, "A PC is no bargain when it doesn't do what you want.  The one thing that both Apple and Microsoft can agree on is that everyone thinks the Mac is cool. With its great designs and advanced software, nothing matches it at any price."

Microsoft declined to respond to Apple's statement.

Mr. Hesseldahl concludes with more select comments, stating, "Microsoft and its hardware partners wouldn't have to make this case had they focused less in the past decade on driving prices down and more on quality....  PC makers in the Windows camp have done everything possible to make their products progressively worse by cutting corners to save pennies per unit and boost sales volume. There's good reason Apple is seeing healthy profits while grabbing market share. It refuses to budge on quality and so charges a higher price. Rather than running ads that seem clever at first but really aren't, the Windows guys ought to take the hint and just build better computers."



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By Brandon Hill (blog) on 4/17/2009 10:50:27 AM , Rating: 5
I mean seriously, why pay for anivirus? I use AVG Free. There sure are others like AntiVir and Avast as well. Total cost $0.

As for paying for Photoshop Elements? Try Paint.net or GIMP. Total cost $0.




By Zshazz on 4/17/2009 10:58:28 AM , Rating: 5
Yeah, and you're forgetting the extra costs associated with being a Mac user. Namely, having to get colon surgery to get the Apple out of your ass after you've been ****ed with it.


By matt0401 on 4/17/2009 1:55:59 PM , Rating: 3
The argument is more PC vs. Mac. Ubuntu fits into the PC camp here. This is one of the main advantages, you can use whatever OS you want to. Ubuntu, Windows, anything x86 (and now x64).


By FingerMeElmo87 on 4/17/2009 2:37:40 PM , Rating: 5
you're not a very well informed person are you? Vista Premium 32/64 bit $99.99. OSX Leopard $129.99. wheres the arm and the leg???


By Akrovah on 4/17/2009 6:36:12 PM , Rating: 5
He's not really lying. While OS X is available from your linked site for 89 bucks, the site you linked states very clearly that this is a sale price. When we actually go to Apple.com we still get $129.00

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?fnode=M...

Newegg however does have Leapard priced at only 115, and it looks like a permanent non-sale price.


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 6:57:44 PM , Rating: 5
You really are relentless, aren't you?

All of that undue searching and cherry picking, arguing the most meaningless points to the bone.

The only liar here is you. Lying to yourself that you made the right choice in purchasing a Mac.

You're convincing no one.


By JoshuaBuss on 4/19/2009 9:38:49 PM , Rating: 2
then why do you keep defending them like a part of you dies every time someone points out something they don't like about them?

this comparison is ridiculous. I don't know anyone who uses AV software with Vista, and I don't know very many people who don't either:

A) Know how to get the apps they want / need for significantly less than retail
B) Know how to get alternatives to common apps that are free
C) Don't need said apps anyway.

The worse part is comparing the PC's service plan without even mentioning the cost of the apple care plan.


By Akrovah on 4/17/2009 7:03:20 PM , Rating: 2
Perhaps not lying so much as... misinformed.


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 7:04:35 PM , Rating: 1
Good point. But it's impossible to inform someone who always thinks they're right, hence being a liar.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 7:44:01 PM , Rating: 1
Well, Pirks thinks he is doing the right thing by informing us all by pronouncing his opinions as facts, and then proceeding to ridicule those who do not agree with his opinions.

Other than that, Pirks is a great guy.........


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 6:20:36 AM , Rating: 2
So you don't deny being an Apple zealot? Then again, how could you?

Furthermore, has it ever occurred to you that perhaps that's not a lie, and it is in fact $129 as advertised on the Apple site?

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?fnode=M...

Everything seems to be a lie to you. You even think people are lying when they have in fact not even formed an opinion on the particular subject, let alone tried to make out something they have said is fact.

Whilst we're on the topic of being subjective, hows this for an opinion, on behalf of everyone who posts here...

You're an ass!


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 10:39:55 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
he always posts bullsh1t here

Sounds familiar, don't you think?

quote:
Apple zealot? Who, you are?

What this says to me is that you have nothing more to say.

You just don't get it, do you?

quote:
Like Waaa, a hidden one who loves his MacBook and caresses it secretly but pretends to be objective here.


As he has said in many previous posts, he bashes zealots, not Apple. You, on the other hand, as an Apple lover, take everything as a personal attack towards your beloved Apple and twist it because you have to make your point. Similar to how Mac users feel the need to constantly jusify themselves for spending an exorbitant amount of money on something that in many peoples opinions is not worth it.


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 1:47:13 PM , Rating: 2
Show me where I have not been objective.

I have always been neutral on the stance of mac vs pc.

I have not been neutral on the stance of opinionated morons posting to hear themselves talk or argue for the sake of argument.

I think you will find that I am quite objective. And you will not find one point of hypocrisy unlike the majority of your posts. We have been down this road, you know I am correct :)


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 2:40:30 PM , Rating: 1
I can sum up your "cold hard facts" into these simple categories:

1. Apple MBP cooling & Trackpad
2. Computers are like cars
3. Crysis is the last of its kind PC exclusive
4. Anything you cherry pick to have something to show that you know a fact, incase we call you out on your multiple biased opinions.

You post these things over... and over.... and over.... and over. We get it already.


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 3:48:30 PM , Rating: 1
I find this post amusing since none of it is true, like most of your posts.

You're such a cute little forum monkey, Pirks. You amuse us all so well.


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 3:50:59 PM , Rating: 2
Show me where I have said any of that, and I will give you a cookie.


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 3:56:49 PM , Rating: 2
Also, I like how you bring an entire discussion down to a pissing match. Usually you being laughed at by everyone on here, and you being ignorant and pretending that people care about what you have to say.

Oh snaps.. look it's sunny outside, I think I will head out and leave you to replying to every one of my comments as you spend the rest of your day jerking off to yourself and your lack of money/talent/knowledge and women.

:)


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 10:44:46 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I will say that many of your posts seem to have been downrated for no reason, but I would also like to say that Chicko was lying. Apple advertises it for $129. That's a fucking fact
Chicko was using MSRP for OS X and some e-tailer discounted price for a stripped down version of Vista. If he was using MSRP for non-stripped down version of Vista ($399) I wouldn't complain. But he didn't, he purposefully deceited and lied about the OS prices.
quote:
If it can't autodetect it I don't know of any other way to get it to work. I'm sure there probably is, but I'm also sure it's probably not very simple to do either.
Same sh1t with Vista, TOTALLY same sh1t. If you try to share your media library and you got public network(s) in addition to private network(s) on your PC - you're SCREWED, man. Try to figure out how to do THAT, huh? :P Saying that Vista is somehow more user friendly or simple than OS X is a lie, I know 'cause I use both.


By Alexstarfire on 4/19/2009 2:06:38 AM , Rating: 2
I never said I was talking about Vista first off. I don't like Vista either. I find XP easier to use if something should go wrong, but I think that might be because I have used it more. As far as being able to network with public and private networks.... I have no idea. I don't have that to deal with and never have, so I can't say anything one way or the other. I've never had trouble connecting to any network that I'm aware of though. And at LAN parties, I'm talking 20+ computers, you have a variety of different computers to deal with.

Secondly, I didn't know what version of Vista he was talking about. I was talking just about the price he quoted for OS X, nothing more. While I don't think his comparison is fair, neither is yours. You can't compare Vista Ultimate Premium, or whatever the hell it's really called, to OS X. Now I wouldn't go compare OS X to the lowest version of Vista, which I think is OEM only BTW, as it is very crippled and not much of an OS if you ask me. But comparing it to Vista Home Basic is completely fair. It can do EVERYTHING that home users will want to do, unless you happen to want to author DVDs. You'll need a different program to do that.

And BTW, the MSRP for Vista Home Basic is $199.95 in which case OS X is cheaper. Granted I have no idea how old that page is on the Microsoft site. Newegg lists the Retail version of Vista Ultimate at $189.95 which is oddly cheaper than the Retail version of Vista Home Basic. Ohhh, and the MSRP for Vista Ultimate is $319.95, not this $399 you speak of. This comes straight off of the Microsoft website. So please, stop making up random sh!t.


By Alexstarfire on 4/19/2009 3:26:09 PM , Rating: 2
Well, this is straight from Microsoft so I doubt they have it wrong since they MADE the OS.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-vista/com...

And as I said before, you can find the retail version far cheaper.


By themaster08 on 4/19/2009 5:57:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Windows Vista Ultimate Retail $399

2 years ago.

If you care to look at the very bottom, you will find the following:

November 8, 2006
Updated February 14, 2007; March 21, 2007


By themaster08 on 4/19/2009 8:13:40 PM , Rating: 3
No. I just thought i'd correct you after you're constantly going around correcting other peoples' so-called "lies".

If you want my advice....if you don't like it done to you, then I suggest you stop doing it to other people.


By themaster08 on 4/20/2009 5:59:13 AM , Rating: 2
That's fair enough, but you really should give the Chicko thing a rest now, it's getting kinda tedious.


By themaster08 on 4/19/2009 7:55:59 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Saying that Vista is somehow more user friendly or simple than OS X is a lie, I know 'cause I use both.

You see, that word again. You know what your problem is? You can't tell the difference between an opinion and fact

If someone said to me that Vista is a more user friendly OS, then that is their opinion, so how on earth can it be a lie?

Fair enough if you use both, but that is your opinion that OSX is a more user friendly OS.
In some respects I agree with you, due to using OSX for about 6 months. The problem is though, coming from a user who already enjoys using Windows, it's not that I have anything against it, but I just can't adapt to it in the same way I did when I first used Windows. I just felt like it was a childs toy, it made me, as what I would class as a more advanced user feel somewhat condescended and patronised. I can see the appeal though, particularly to those less computer illiterate. That's my opinion though, don't bash me for it!

It's just a matter of taste. No one is lying, so please.....


By SavagePotato on 4/19/2009 1:22:30 PM , Rating: 2
The only time the words cold and hard come into play describing you, is in reference to the cold hard rocks in your head, or the cold hard brick wall of stupidity that you represent.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 2:57:47 PM , Rating: 2
Hehe, potato idiot, as late to the game as ever :)) Probably been too busy loving his nasty little bro Chicko :P


By HinderedHindsight on 4/18/2009 4:19:00 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
and dont bring Ubuntu up, its not even the same level.


You're right, it's much further ahead than both Windows and Mac- it's free, comes with a full office suite that has strong compatibility with office, cd burning suite, and has equal, if not better effects than both. It is fully extensible and customizable. It is compact (much smaller hard disk footprint) and has far less resource utilization than Windows OS's.

Upon install, it recognized and was able to use all the hardware on my laptop without the need to download drivers. I can't say that about any Windows OS. Even my USB-serial cable that I use to configure networking devices is automatically recognized, while Windows still requires drivers. About my favorite part of Ubuntu is live disc.

Further, full revisions, point releases, and updates are free.

Many of the changes to core functionality in Vista came straight from the Unix/Linux world.

Personally, I use Ubuntu as a host OS with Windows (both XP and Vista) as guest OS'. And I will regularly forgo even booting Windows in favor of using built in apps; about the only thing I use my Windows OS is for active directory/exchange/MSSQL management tools, Outlook and testing software installs, and syncing my mobile device. Mobile devices are the one area that I will say Vista got almost totally right that Ubuntu just can't match (or if it can, I haven't found it yet).

My only other real complaint about Ubuntu has to do with the inconsistent behavior of ALSA and Pulse Audio drivers.

But from a technical and feature level perspective, Ubuntu is more than comparable to Windows and Mac OSX, even from a ground 0 installation point of view. There's a reason why many vendors are validating it as an OS on machines that traditionally had Windows (particularly on Netbooks).


By borismkv on 4/18/2009 11:08:36 PM , Rating: 3
I can get a 1 terabyte hard drive for close to 150 bucks. I'm sorry, but you're living in the 90s if OS footprint is a major problem in your book.


By Alexstarfire on 4/19/2009 2:12:13 AM , Rating: 3
I don't believe he was just referring to HDD space, but RAM, CPU, and GPU as well. Just a thought.


By JoshuaBuss on 4/19/2009 5:47:33 PM , Rating: 2
tell that to owners of 4G asus EEE PCs.

there's always gonna be a place for a small footprint system.. and trying to make the argument that it's OK for software to be bloated simply because we have a lot of hard drive space is like saying it's OK to have a gas guzzler as long as gas is cheap :]


By Akrovah on 4/17/2009 7:00:44 PM , Rating: 1
You forget that when you buy a windows computer, you already have a "GENUINE" copy of Windows. So that is not really an extra expense.


By Zshazz on 4/18/2009 12:49:49 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
For my money, I'm going with Ubuntu.

And don't give me this, "Mac sux because its expensive" and then turn around and say that "Ubuntu sux because it doesn't do what I want it to do."


You know, it's interesting you mention that. I dual-boot Ubuntu and Vista. I like both, so I use both. :) This is the essence of PC: choice.

Apple is all about "you have to get an official Mac with amazingly high marked up prices" ... if someone tries to make a clone, they get sued into oblivion. They don't want you to make any choice if they don't profit heavily from it.

Yeah yeah, they'll sit there and make claims that they use "higher quality parts", but the majority of them are no different than a standard PC part. Occasionally there's a nice part, such as EFI, or the nice batteries in their laptops (a 5+ hour battery in a 17-inch laptop is something I'd be interested in), but the general parts they use ... is the SAME. They aren't sprinkled with magic pixie dust... it's the SAME.

If you compare top-of-the-line PC parts with Mac parts, you'll see the PC is actually superior in quality ... yet, still cheaper than a Mac. But, the disadvantage is that you'd have to build it yourself. Oh well, you can't win it all!


By matt0401 on 4/17/2009 2:42:42 PM , Rating: 4
I hardly think this issue isn't worth looking into. There is a massive burden that may be thrust upon the American taxpayer to provide the money necessary for these colon reparations! You people need to take this more seriously...


By Jrouss on 4/17/2009 4:45:49 PM , Rating: 1
I can't stop laughing at this!!!


By MonkeyPaw on 4/17/2009 11:00:20 AM , Rating: 4
Yeah, it sounds like he's grasping at straws, and the only one he found was in his Apple Kool-aid.


By sprockkets on 4/17/2009 8:26:40 PM , Rating: 2
I remember back in the day when I was in elementary school. Having a $120 pair of shoes meant you are "cool", like those Reebok Pump shoes.

I guess he is right, in order to be "cool" you have to pay for overpriced hardware.


By JasonMick (blog) on 4/17/2009 11:00:46 AM , Rating: 5
First off, even his analysis fails at basic math skills:
Real World:
$699+$619=$1318
Distortion Field:
$699+$619=$1500

Best Buy Geek Squad? There only useful function is to send your computer out for warranty repair, something you could do yourself! Unless you are totally uninformed about computers/security you probably know close to as much as a lot of them. If you are that uninformed, ask your buddy who knows about computers to catch you up to speed.

And like you said Brandon -- Paint.net (free), AVG (free), Firefox NoScript (free), CrapCleaner (Free).

I think he does make some decent points about battery life and the screen (he leaves off the aluminum body, probably another perk), but I personally feel that doesn't justify the +$2,000 price increase.

He could make a solid case that the Apple Book Pro is a worthwhile luxury item. But instead he tries to compare it to a PC with distortion field math and rants. In the end, it comes off unfortunately as hopelessly biased.

I hope nobody actually uses that article as a basis of their next buying decision... O_o


By StevoLincolnite on 4/17/2009 11:06:54 AM , Rating: 5
There is a "Free" version for almost all software available around on the 'net, AVG, GIMP, DVD video software etc.

quote:
A PC is no bargain when it doesn't do what you want.


That made me laugh, considering most programs I use don't have an MACOS version, and most games don't support the Apple platforms either.

About the Screens, I would personally grab a Dell notebook with the RGB LED screens, they are simply awesome, cant fault apple on battery life however.


By icanhascpu on 4/17/2009 11:59:57 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
That made me laugh, considering most programs I use don't have an MACOS version


Like what?


By someguy123 on 4/18/2009 12:55:16 AM , Rating: 3
well, he does say games. you can consider every game a separate program.


By StevoLincolnite on 4/19/2009 2:35:05 AM , Rating: 2
Like my Compilers, Certain API's, Games, Network monitoring software, Wrappers etc'.


By chmilz on 4/17/2009 11:09:21 AM , Rating: 5
How about: I don't give a crap about any of the software he mentioned, like iLife. That's the beauty of PC, I get and pay for only what I want. Like a machine that games.

Oh the denial, Apple zealots.


By etherreal on 4/18/2009 4:49:27 PM , Rating: 4
Exactly, flexibility is the key. Buy what you want and you only have to pay for what you want. Avoid the Apple Lock-In.


By DM0407 on 4/17/2009 11:12:50 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
I think he does make some decent points about battery life and the screen (he leaves off the aluminum body, probably another perk), but I personally feel that doesn't justify the +$2,000 price increase.


AND you can run Office 2007 on a Mac.

Way to assume your consumers are technically retarded, mac.


By TomZ on 4/17/2009 12:43:49 PM , Rating: 3
The mac version would be Office 2008, not 2007.


By oab on 4/17/2009 1:25:06 PM , Rating: 5
Office 2008 > Office 2007, after all, the number is bigger, therefore it must be a better product!


By ice456789 on 4/17/2009 1:32:13 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Plus, yes, Apple does not assume that it's customers are technically proficient.
Of course not. If they were technically proficient most of them wouldn't be Apple customers so Apple is correct to assume they are not.


By just4U on 4/17/2009 11:27:28 AM , Rating: 3
I was thinking about that you know. Why didn't he try to make a case of it being a luxury item. People might have bought into that a little bit more then trying to justify the overall costs.

Ah well target practice anyone? Since he was kind enough to put that big ole bullseye around his neck.


By FingerMeElmo87 on 4/17/2009 12:40:42 PM , Rating: 4
His Distortion Field is in full effect here. the point on the commercials is simply this, not everyone has $2000-2800 to get a Mac (a descent one any way). why won't they come to terms with this? there shit is exspensive. also, with the truck loads of free A/V multimedia software out there, free antivirus and malware protection, and the fear of losing ones job, it makes it really difficult to justify buying an over priced pc.

sure it looks nice but you can find the exact same hardware in a much more practical and cheaper machine. and if you're looking for a pc in the same price range, you'll find a much more powerful, well round computer. case in point
http://www.gateway.com/systems/product/529668248.p...

and just a personal request to Crispin Porter+Bogusky, please drive the nail even further into Apple by comparing Desktops. iMacs are even bigger rips than there Macbooks.


By ShammGod126 on 4/17/2009 12:47:36 PM , Rating: 5
This is why we're in this financial mess. Guys at Forbes and other financial publications who can't add and erroneously report on something they have absolutely no knowledge of. Really just goes to show you how knowledgeable the real "experts" are...


By Digimonkey on 4/17/2009 1:22:13 PM , Rating: 5
Assuming the tax rate is 7 percent. Tax would still make it around $1400 not $1500, the Mac is taxed as well. So instead of $2800 it'd be more like $3000. You still have a huge gap there so your point is moot.

Vista is good OS, but I'm not going to argue that with you. Last I heard XP is still a free downgrade, so you messed up, but downgrading to XP is just a choice anyways and in no way is a necessity.

AVG is a fine anti-virus program. I haven't heard of any gripes with it. You can even google reviews of it, and see it always get's a rating around 4/5 stars/points or whatever.


By Alexstarfire on 4/17/2009 1:46:13 PM , Rating: 3
That's ok, I wouldn't be caught dead owning a brand spanking new Mac over my 2 year old PC. My dad being one of the biggest Apple zealots of all time I have seen this comparison before. I'm trying to remember if this was right before or right after their transition to Intel chips though. I think it was before... so it could be slightly different now. Only a 1 year old PC could beat the brand spanking new Mac. Considering all the things we can do with GPUs these days a Mac is probably far worse off. Costs an arm, a leg, and your left nut just so you can get the best 1 year old video card to put in your Mac since the newest ones aren't available. Though that's really only for desktops, not laptops. Laptops have shit GPUs in both worlds.

Anyway, if you've done even a little homework on anti-virus products you'd know that the free ones are not shit by any means. Many of them beat Norton and McAffee, not that they are very good anyway. My point is really that just because you pay for it doesn't mean it's good quality, just like something being free doesn't make it shit.

Of course if you're buying your computer in a store then you're not a very wise consumer anyway. Granted I believe the Apple Store and Apple website are the same price so it's rather moot for them. And you can get most of the program that he mentioned for a lot less. Buy them all from the same place online and you only pay for shipping once too.

Also, you don't like Vista.... get Linux. It's free. Vista ain't that bad anyway. I sure don't like it, but it does what I need it to do. Even if it takes me a while to figure it out. My sub $400 laptop does EVERYTHING, and then some, I need it to do. Not the most responsive though since it's got like 1GB of RAM with Vista, but it's not so bad.


By aebiv on 4/17/2009 2:01:13 PM , Rating: 2
My fiancee has had absolutely 0 issues with her sub $700 HP notebook. Even though the battery life isn't that great on the AMD system, it is dead reliable and has great build quality.

I've actually had more problems with my Studio XPS 13...

HP isn't the HP of old, they've gotten back into the game with full force. The union/buyout of Voodoo has done them well.


By Truxy on 4/17/2009 2:16:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
1318, and tax? and shipping if you order cds? and who is installing all this?

If you need to pay someone to install software from a CD you shouldn't own a PC or a Mac, you should stick to an etch-a-sketch or something similar.

You bought a PC with Vista. You knew it would have Vista on it before hand. XP preloaded is an option still, so a simple mistake on your part if you wanted XP instead.

Free Antivirus programs are generally fine, lots of good options out there. The only time I recommend paid license AV is for businesses who need reports and online management features. I've gone for 3-4 years with AVG Free and haven't had a virus (just scanned with about every tool recently).

The main reason PCs get slow over time is because people download and install software. Some of the software they download runs in memory as soon as Windows starts, and continues to run, sometimes randomly accessing files. When you have several programs doing this it slows the PC down for doing normal task. This is a user instigated issue, and has nothing to do with it being a PC. In some instances hard drives can get slower after extended use especially if they have bad sectors, but Macs have that problem as well. There's no magic behind PCs getting slower as they get older.

Macs are good PC's. They used to be the best option for graphics design, but IMO they slacked in developing better screens and everyone else caught up. They have a premium on them compared similarly specced Windows PCs.


By RjBass on 4/17/2009 4:38:27 PM , Rating: 2
Wow. You are really lost man. I purchased a $600 Compaq last December and guess how much I have paid since for that same PC...........not a dime. It does everything I need it to do, and if I need some software that I don't have, I go and get the free version, as there are free versions of just about anything you could possibly need for a PC.

I make my movies, burn my DVD's, check my email, and make Power Point presentations just like everybody else. I even make music, edit photos, and write love poems to my semi cool and totally hip girlfriend while drinking lattes in my turtle neck at my local coffee rip off shop on the corner.

I do all that and then look over at the stupid Apple chump who just paid $1500+ for a laptop that does the exact same thing, and I laugh at him.


By murphyslabrat on 4/18/2009 1:02:11 AM , Rating: 5
Maybe you haven't spent anything more on your computer, but I have. I've spent close to $400 on software that didn't come with my computer: stuff like Call of Duty 4, Left 4 Dead, etc. Microsoft should really get around to packaging those things with PC's.

And, actually, I could have saved that money if I had bought a mac, as those games don't run on one.


By RjBass on 4/19/2009 10:44:45 PM , Rating: 1
Wrong.

Surprisingly enough, more big title games are now appearing on Macs. My cousin from Brasil was just here to visit and he just so happened to be shopping for a laptop for school.

For kicks we brought him into the Apple store. Not only did he look disgusted with Apples prices, but my son and I were very surprised when we saw some of the software that was available for a Mac. COD4 was our biggest surprise.

Now here is the kicker. Most Macs don't come pre-installed with COD4, Photoshop, or any of that other high end software just like most of their PC counterparts. Mac's simply come with the cheap freeware type of software that allows you to do all those nice things when you purchase your new Mac. Apple in this regard did a very nice job of coming up with a fantastic package to pre-install with their computers, unlike most PC's where the user has to actually go out on the web and search for the programs they want to accomplish specific tasks.

Does all that freeware type software equal the much larger price tag? I think not.

I know Mac users are proud, I know they all feel like they belong to some special group that is somehow giving the finger to big bad Microsoft, but in the end, who is really ripping of it's customers more? Hmmmmmmmm


By RjBass on 4/19/2009 10:56:01 PM , Rating: 1
Just to help you out with that, here is the list of 1st Person Shooter games available for the Mac on Newegg. Granted it's only 6 games, but they are 6 really good games including Medal of Honor and Cod4. http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Sub...


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 9:05:51 AM , Rating: 2
There are multiple free AV softwares out there that rank the same and sometimes better than those you need to pay for.

Also why take your PC to geek squad, when you get a year warranty on them and you can purchase 3-5 years more coverage. No different than Apple Care. Also guess what? Apple users also go to geek squad after their warranty is up, as Apple stores aren't exactly as common as a BestBuy or well...any other PC repair shop.

My hometown alone has like 30 different PC repair shops. Nothing within 100 miles for an Apple Store or any Apple certified repair location.

If all I wanted to do on my machine is surf the web and do some chatting, I'd rather have a cheap HP, Dell, or Gateway over an expensive Apple. Hell even the Mac Minis have increased in cost since it's release.

Also if your getting quality from Apple, explain breaking Macbooks and exploding iPods? You don't get extra quality from Apple. You just get a prettier shell. My Dell Inspiron 5000e from 2001 still works for what I bought it for. Surfing the web and watching videos.


By Doormat on 4/17/2009 2:02:49 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Best Buy Geek Squad? There only useful function is to send your computer out for warranty repair, something you could do yourself! Unless you are totally uninformed about computers/security you probably know close to as much as a lot of them. If you are that uninformed, ask your buddy who knows about computers to catch you up to speed.


The Geek Squad comparison is entirely valid. GS might not know much compared to us tech guys but they still know far more than my parents and the average computer user.

Also, not everyone has tech savvy friends, and even if they do, the last thing I want to spend my free time doing is fixing all of my friends (and their friends) computers. At this point its family only and thats it. Even back when I did fix other people's computers, I still charged them for my time. If anything, you can probably increase that GS diagnostic fee, as the folks I know take their computers to GS usually have to take it back more than once because those guys aren't that good at fixing stuff.

If you're in warranty you can call Dell/HP for free, or take it in somewhere local (GS) for $129. Apple offers the best of both worlds - local free support. Even if its out of warranty Apple is still free to at least look at it, Dell is $49 for a phone call for out of warranty support.

The only downside is that Genius Bar access will become more limited as mac marketshare increases. Personally I haven't had too many problems with getting an appointment - the last time I had a problem with my MacBook (the HD failed) they had it back to me in under 24 hours with the OS and iLife reinstalled. Try that with having to mail in your laptop to Dell or HP.

But that doesn't change that Apple has to build more stores and hire more staff as more people buy Macs. Its just part of the price.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 6:22:53 PM , Rating: 2
Or it could be that nothing you are saying is worth reading.... just maybe...


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 1:55:34 PM , Rating: 2
Silly forum monkey, Pirks. Always dancing around in his little bow tie and doing flips for us with his cute little antics. Hes so adorable.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 3:26:05 PM , Rating: 2
Whaaa louder for me please :)


By spookynutz on 4/17/2009 6:44:20 PM , Rating: 1
I think you're living in la-la-land. Apple support is horrific. Most people who buy an Apple will be going to GS anyway, as there are no Genius Bar's available to the majority of the population. If you live in nowhere Iowa, you better book a flight to Des Moines, because that's the only Apple store in your state. The support you get at the Genius Bar isn't always stellar, either.

Conversely, if one of the Dell laptops I administer has a problem, I call Dell. Two days later there's a contracted technician at the site, parts in hand, ready to fix it. I have that level of support for five years with Dell and HP, and the cost per PC is still cheaper than the premium they'd pay buying a Mac.


By Pneumothorax on 4/17/2009 8:10:48 PM , Rating: 4
How about this: My unibody MBP, which I use at work, LCD controller burned out, it took me over a week to find a appointment slot at my nearest Apple Store. When I got there, the "genius" just reinstalled my OSX partition and appeared to "fix it". Got laptop home that night and again the screen started to flicker and then went completely dark. AGAIN I had to wait a week to find a damn time slot to see the "Genius"

BTW when my Dell XPS M1330's screen went out, a dell on-site repairman was at my office in 24 hours with new screen on hand. I paid $1300 for Dell laptop with 3 year on-site warranty and damage protection. My $2600 MBP has a crummy 1 year warranty only lolz. This is my last apple product other than a hackintosh!


By Alexstarfire on 4/17/2009 9:35:17 PM , Rating: 4
I'm glad you only talk about the US and not the other 5+ billion inhabitants on this planet. Didn't know only the US purchased computers.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 9:16:26 AM , Rating: 2
Going in twice to get a replacement AC adapters. That right there is what I'd consider a bad experience with a computer. Doesn't matter what your experience is with the Genius Bar, I shouldn't have to go see them about an AC adapter. Let alone go see them twice about it.


By segerstein on 4/17/2009 6:10:48 PM , Rating: 3
For the same price, HP EliteBook offers much better specs.

Regardless of high price you pay, you with MacBook Pro you don't get:
* HDMI 5.1 or even basic VGA out
* card reader
* dock station
* 8-bit matrix
* 2 disks (eg. SSD+HDD, could be in RAID 0/1)
* FireGL or Quadro graphics
* extra battery
* eSata
* 8GB RAM (even if you could stuff it in, OS 10 doesn't support it)

Yes, you get curved plastics and a fruit label. But is it worth overpaying?

Commercials did compare what one can get for a certain amount of money at Apple and other PC vendors. Non-Apple PC won every time.

It isn't fair comparing $700 PC machine to $2000 machine. Compare rather a $2000 non-Apple PC and $2000 Apple PC.

The stupidest thing of all is calling Apple's PC a "Mac", especially in a phrase "Mac vs PC". If a computer can run off-the-shelf Windows, then it's a PC, isn't it?

It's like "EliteBook vs PC" ...


By atlmann10 on 4/20/2009 2:47:00 PM , Rating: 2
You know the funny thing about all these apple debates is this. My brother is a MAC Faithful, and uses of course a Mac Book Pro. AT the same time he bought his MAC book Pro or shortly thereafter I bought a Gateway FX 7811. We both use them as mobile/sedentary desktop replacement units. I have actually had less problems and better performance. He also paid at least twice the amount I did, and has had memory and other issues. For a PC I don't see the reasoning and would be able to realize the mentality sensically only as say a 500-1000 dollar purse. I could build you a mac for half the price at home; all it really is, is an operating system as the hardware is basically exactly the same.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 11:20:12 AM , Rating: 4
I have come to the conclusion that the writer of the Business Week story is none other than Pirks...

Flame: On


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 1:49:49 PM , Rating: 4
Welcome to the conversation, Pirks.

I knew you would take the bait LOL!


By Zap08 on 4/17/2009 2:30:07 PM , Rating: 4
Every time I see an article or a comment on DT where mac fanboys are trying to justify why Macs are overpriced makes me wonder, how could someone be so stubborn. Even though the facts are laid out right in front of them, they still don't get it.

I just wish there was something I could present to explain what I'm talking about....Oh wait, there is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZHsHdPYJ8Q


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 11:36:32 PM , Rating: 2
HAHAHHA OMG That is totally Pirks....great find!


By SavagePotato on 4/19/2009 11:54:02 PM , Rating: 2
That is what I am going to picture from now on every time pirks posts.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 3:32:00 PM , Rating: 2
Well see, that's where you come in.

Let's turn this into another 500 post Apple vs. Mac commentary!

LULZ

BTW - Im not an Apple basher, never have been. I'm an Apple Zealot basher :)


By rudolphna on 4/17/2009 11:58:56 PM , Rating: 2
That was absolutely the most pointless, useless, and most unfunny post I have EVER read on DT. and that is saying something. Congratulations.


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 12:03:44 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
That was absolutely the most pointless, useless, and most unfunny post I have EVER read on DT. and that is saying something. Congratulations.


Welcome to Pirks.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 12:49:20 AM , Rating: 2
Learn what the irony is :)


By gucio69 on 4/17/2009 3:30:08 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Instead of focusing on direct competition with Apple (I mean you, Zune!) they somehow decided to reply to Apple commercials that were targeting Dell, HP and all the other OEMs.


Are you referring to the Apple commercials that say that Vista is a poor OS with a myriad of problems???? I might be an ignorant PC user but those seemed to be aimed squarely at Microsoft. I don't remember any characters named Dell or HP in those commercials. Reality distortion field indeed.


By Cheesew1z69 on 4/17/2009 3:37:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Are you referring to the Apple commercials that say that Vista is a poor OS with a myriad of problems???? I might be an ignorant PC user but those seemed to be aimed squarely at Microsoft. I don't remember any characters named Dell or HP in those commercials. Reality distortion field indeed.
No, it's not you who is the ignorant one.


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 7:12:59 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Did they just admit that Apple was right bashing them or what?

No. They just looked at their sales figues and laughed it up.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 10:40:17 AM , Rating: 2
Then they looked at their profits and ASP and cried :)))


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 10:54:49 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe, but I don't think any of them feel remotely threatened by Apple, more so by the recession, so don't feel the need to spend millions on advertising strategies to get back at something as futile as Apples PC bashing.

Has Apples marketing strategy paid off? Do you even know of anyone who saw their adverts and thought "Oh, I think I'll buy one of those" Because I sure as hell don't!


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 2:22:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't think any of them feel remotely threatened by Apple
Yeah, right, like the company with thin margin is never afraid of a company with four times bigger margin (Dell vs Apple). Sure, maybe in your dreams.
quote:
Because I sure as hell don't
You don't, I do, he does, she doesn't, so what? Use financial numbers, not your personal stories about your friends and stuff.


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 5:03:09 PM , Rating: 2
You've obviously got something to say in Apples defence for ABSOLUTELY everything.
Now do you see why you are known as an Apple zealot?
No, of course not. After all, i'm wrong and you're right.

The thing is though, at least if it did come to a stage where you were actually right, I would accept it, but you are unable to return the favour. You'd find some FUD to spout to counteract what has been said, even when the facts are laid right before you.
Typical Apple lover. Of course, you can't see it from other peoples' perspective and think you're being downrated due to people being afraid of the truth. If this is the case, then why is it only you that ever agrees with anything you spout? Does it not ring any bells?
No, of course not. After all, the whole world is wrong and you're right.

quote:
You don't, I do, he does, she doesn't, so what? Use financial numbers, not your personal stories about your friends and stuff.

Well you seem to be the expert on Apple figures, so I asked you personally.


By atlmann10 on 4/20/2009 3:04:30 PM , Rating: 2
You know; the funny thing about all this market talk, if it is less than ten percent effect, or positive market wise in a commodity rationing it does not exist. So the Apple faithful as a market are disregarded in general. Just as I compared buying a MAC BOOK to buying a thousand dollar purse, the market or it's section has absolutely no Impact,and therefore not much worth.


By ultimatebob on 4/17/2009 11:22:53 AM , Rating: 3
I don't think that paint.net or GIMP are easy enough for a newbie to edit and print their photos, but Picasa is. Total cost $0, and you can even use it on a Mac if you want to.

And, yeah... any non-business user who pays for anti-virus and anti-spyware software at this point isn't very bright.


By Alexstarfire on 4/17/2009 3:35:02 PM , Rating: 4
Not like Photoshop is any easier.


By Radnor on 4/17/2009 11:29:52 AM , Rating: 3
You can even lower it with Ubuntu.

Mac is modded linux Distro also.

Mac is for enthusiasts low on enthusiasm and high on cash.
Or they would be hardcore core DIY.

As for the software package, it is silly for Apple with its bowlfish of applications, match Microsoft with open-source or paid apps.

It's is just dumb. As for hardware, when Apple went x86 it became a normal PC by the inside. So this IS A NON-ARGUMENT.

I think this is idiotic. As Malware doesn't plow trough safari aswell....yeah right.


By Thorburn on 4/17/2009 12:07:38 PM , Rating: 4
UNIX != Linux

Mac OS X isn't Linux derived, its more closely related to FreeBSD and NetBSD and is a decendant of NeXT's Nextstep/OPENSTEP OS.


By Cheesew1z69 on 4/17/2009 4:23:31 PM , Rating: 2
- The Mac OS Classic family, which was based on Apple's own code - The Mac OS X operating system, derived from UNIX.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS


By Cheesew1z69 on 4/17/2009 4:27:04 PM , Rating: 2
And to follow up with that...

quote:
In 1988, Apple released its first UNIX-based OS, A/UX, which was a UNIX operating system with the Mac OS look and feel. It was not very competitive for its time, due in part to the crowded Unix market. A/UX had most of its success in sales to the U.S. government, where UNIX was a requirement that Mac OS could not meet. Mac OS X later incorporporated code from the UNIX-based NeXTStep after Steve Jobs rejoined Apple in 1996.


By takercena on 4/17/2009 11:41:24 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
...He says that Lauren's machine comes with Muvee Reveal ($80) and CyberLink DVD suite ($104)


Nothing can beat MPC-HC included inside K-lite Codec!!!!! + CoreAVC


By DEVGRU on 4/17/2009 11:49:38 AM , Rating: 5
LOL.

I haven't used any form of AV software in over a decade, and all of my PC's remain virus, ad, and spyware-free despite my PC's being connected 24/7 and used for everything from general surfing, pr0n, and most of all, on-line gaming.

Common sense + clue FTW.


By JasonMick (blog) on 4/17/2009 11:59:53 AM , Rating: 3
I have a feeling you are either practicing very careful browsing via script blocking/cookie blocking/removal and a various cautious email filtering policy, or you're in for an unpleasant surprise.

Kudos to you if its the former. ;)


By icrf on 4/17/2009 2:09:22 PM , Rating: 4
I'm in the exact same boat, too. It's really quite simple. Keep patched. Don't run programs from websites you don't trust. Don't open attachments from people you don't trust. The last virus I got was from a friend's floppy disk back in high school over a decade ago.

It's really not all that hard to do if you know what you're doing. The general populous doesn't fall into that category, but most of the readers of this site are certainly capable.


By borismkv on 4/18/2009 11:03:31 PM , Rating: 2
It is *insanely* easy to stay virus free on a PC. You just have to pay attention. I've been virus free (aside from purposeful virus downloads for testing, which you can get any time you want), for about 8 years. About once every 6 months I'll load up AVG and run a full scan. Never finds a thing. Granted, I usually format at that point as well, just because :D


By knowyourenemy on 4/19/2009 2:26:56 PM , Rating: 2
Sounds like my paranoid butt. A lot of my personal practices compound both the methods you describe and a personal tendency to never go to a site I don't trust.

Works fine so far, and I have experienced little to no problems with malware.

Just to reaffirm my statement, however, I must highlight the word -paranoid-. This is what I am. :)


By clovell on 4/17/2009 12:10:58 PM , Rating: 2
Seriously - and Consumer Reports doesn't factor cost into ratings - not beyond classifications, which is 17-18" screen here. They frequently slap a 'CR-Best Buy' on lower ranking items all the time. I've let my membership lapse in the last few years, but I seriously doubt a MacBook gets one of those.


By FingerMeElmo87 on 4/17/2009 12:44:49 PM , Rating: 5
Didn't Safari get hacked in 10 seconds last month? hmm, that should help the mac community sleep better at night


By omnicronx on 4/17/2009 1:49:37 PM , Rating: 2
Hes talking about usage on a Mac, there is no OSX version of Chrome.


By Cheesew1z69 on 4/17/2009 4:17:49 PM , Rating: 2
Found this, it's not official, but meh, for the Mac users.

http://www.labnol.org/software/download-google-chr...


By SavagePotato on 4/19/2009 1:42:14 PM , Rating: 2
Mac users do, The pwn2own competition which was referred to here was very enlightening.

More enlightening was the interview with the hacker that actually performed the hack afterward. He basically outlined how the mac has no security whatsoever and is a complete and utter joke. He took full control of the system in seconds.

He goes on to say that the hardest combination to hack would be google chrome on Windows, he also adds that Firefox on the Mac is FAR less secure than Firefox on Windows because of the inherent lack of security in OSX.

Yes the extra security of the Mac is a complete fallacy, it is in fact way way less secure and only making it through security through obscurity. There is a very harsh awakening coming if the malware authors decide to start targeting the Mac as heavily as they do Windows.

Not ONLY because the Mac is a horrendously insecure platform, but because of the user base being trained to think they can click on, or open anything they want because they have the miracle computer that stops malware.

A user base with a god complex and extremely poor usage habits + a hideously insecure falsely advertised platform is going to explode into pure hilarity one day.


By Reclaimer77 on 4/17/2009 4:33:45 PM , Rating: 2
Who's "dream machine" is a 17" notebook in the first place ? A Mac user yuppie, that's who.

Give me 2 grand and I'll show you a REAL dream machine. I'll build a PC that will own his face.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 6:20:02 PM , Rating: 1
Well see, the problem with your comment (as with most of your opinionated comments) is that there are people that have a need for a gaming platform or a workstation that some laptops cannot do. I don't get your '3rd world' reference, more talking out of your ass per usual pirks style :)

Granted, there are laptops that CAN do these things, but they cost around $8000 and with such poor battery life, they wouldn't be very practical.

Mobile platforms have their advantages, but will not replace the workstation/gaming rig. So all this guy is saying, is that for the amount of money you drop on a MBP laptop, you could very well go and build a more powerful desktop with alot more options.

Also, don't defend Apple so vigorously, it makes you look like a Kool-Aid drinking Jobs zombie :)


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 6:43:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's a niche market.


And so is Apple, so I guess we don't need them as well.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 7:06:27 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, that's right, expensive gaming PCs seem to be no better than Macs marketshare wise. Sounds very plausible. No reserach has been done on that though, so take it as my feeling, nothing more.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 7:21:20 PM , Rating: 2
http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases/details/gaming...

quote:
TIBURON, CA-November 18, 2008-Jon Peddie Research (JPR), the industry's research and consulting firm for graphics and multimedia, today announced estimated worldwide PC gaming hardware shipments and regional; market share out to 2012 – the growth is an amazing:

* The Enthusiast segment has a worldwide CAGR of 9%

* The Performance segment will have a CAGR of 19%

* The mainstream segment’s CAGR is 21%


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 11:46:47 PM , Rating: 2
"The total, hardware only, market value in 2008 was just over $20 billion, and that will grow to over $34 billion by 2012" - 20 billion compared to Apple's 34 billion for 2008?

Jeez, gaming PC's are actually smaller niche than I thought. Thanks for opening my eyes Whaaa :)


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 11:55:25 PM , Rating: 2
I am glad you managed to ignore market share.

But then again, that is your main strategy is to cherry-pick small arguments and turn them into big ones and repeating them over and over until people just don't give a sh!t.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 12:59:55 AM , Rating: 2
I'm glad you managed to ignore the fact that Apple alone makes way more money than all your "enthusiast" PC sellers altogether :P


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 2:25:04 AM , Rating: 2
What does that have to do with anything?

We were talking about percentages of people playing games on a PC.

quote:
"enthusiast" PC sellers


That doesn't take into account the DIY customer base either. I work for Newegg and I know just how much people spend on PC gaming and related hardware. If you want to talk total money for total amounts of hardware...Apple definitely doesn't win on that account.

Seriously, why does every conversation involve you having to be right about your own opinions. I can definitely tell you are a youngster.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 2:31:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
We were talking about percentages of people playing games on a PC
You don't know what the percentage of the console gamers is, do you?
quote:
I work for Newegg and I know just how much people spend on PC gaming and related hardware. If you want to talk total money for total amounts of hardware Apple definitely doesn't win on that account.
Are you seriously comparing meager 2 billions made by Newegg by 32 billions made by Apple? You must be kidding, right?


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 2:36:58 PM , Rating: 2
Newegg isn't the only hardware vendor in the world.

We were talking about PC gaming, not consoles.

I posted facts, you didn't. I backed up my points, you didn't.

Silly forum monkey... always jumping through hoops for me :)


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 3:49:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I posted facts
I posted facts about Apple beating enthusiast PC stuff sellers revenue wise, you failed to disprove that. We were talking about declining PC gaming vs increasing console gaming, so less and less people waste money on gaming PCs these days. So go singjump some more for me, clown :))


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 9:59:08 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure how you can even compare the two markets. You'd have to look at the enthusiast PC sales for every OEM, every vendor that sells enthusiast parts, and so on. Then there's the problem of getting that data of the enthusiast parts that are sold.

Might as well throw in companies like Swiftech, DangerDen, VapoChill, and so forth as they provide watercooling/extreme cooling for enthusiasts.

You provided a skewed posting, much like how Apple does.


By Alexstarfire on 4/18/2009 3:28:18 AM , Rating: 2
Which only really further proves what every smart person already knows.... that Apple overcharges for it's products. How else do you explain a smaller market share making more money than a larger market share?


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 2:35:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Apple overcharges for it's products. How else do you explain a smaller market share making more money than a larger market share?
Does Lexus brand overcharge too? 'Cause they also have small market share but make more profit than cheapo Chevy-like brands.


By Alexstarfire on 4/18/2009 7:18:17 PM , Rating: 2
Any facts to back that up, or are you just making up crap again?


By Alexstarfire on 4/18/2009 7:20:00 PM , Rating: 2
And BTW, yes they do overcharge.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 10:53:48 PM , Rating: 2
Well, so you don't like the concept of premium goods in general. I wonder why.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 11:33:50 PM , Rating: 2
No, it's just the law of economics. Premium goods always occupy smaller market segment but are more profitable compared to mainstream/budget segments.


By Alexstarfire on 4/19/2009 2:19:48 AM , Rating: 2
While that is true it does not make them better than regular/mainstream products. If you've ever noticed, premium goods mostly just look better. Shoes, rims, clothes, furniture, and 98% of all products out there. It does not apply to everything though.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 11:25:22 AM , Rating: 2
You know that things like Macs and Lexuses don't just "look better", don't you?


By Alexstarfire on 4/19/2009 3:31:09 PM , Rating: 2
Any proof? Or more unsubstantiated crap from your mouth? BTW, perceived betterness, yes I know that's not a word, doesn't make it better.

And as I said before, some things can't really be compared like that. Cars for one. More expensive ones usually are better, but not always. As such, it's not something it should be compared to.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 4:42:44 PM , Rating: 2
Any proof? Like the size/weight/thickness/touchpad/battery life/screen/cooling/etc of the MacBooks don't give you any proof? Well, if you know nothing about technical advantages of MacBooks it doesn't mean these advantages are not there.


By themaster08 on 4/19/2009 5:01:28 PM , Rating: 2
I, for once, agree with you.

The MacBook does have it's Pirks (excuse the pun), but for most people, what it comes down to is getting the job done.

The things you mentioned are nice nice to have better quality, but are not necessities per se, they are more luxuries, and most people aren't willing to go out on a limb to pay for luxuries they cannot afford, or justify paying so much more for when they could purchase another notebook for half the price which will still do as the end user pleases, albeit not as luxurious.

All it's ever mounted down to is taste.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 9:53:36 AM , Rating: 2
Probably because building a gaming machine cost half the price of a Mac. $2500+ is the much higher tier gamers, which are like Mac zealots. They buy the best just to buy the best, even though a 50% markup only provides like a 10% performance increase (made up numbers, but you get the point).


By Pirks on 4/20/2009 12:31:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
only provides like a 10% performance increase
People buy Macs not only for performance. There are other reasons besides performance. I wrote about them here many many times. Battery life, cooling, size, weight and so on and so forth. Not that you zealots will ever understand all these simple things. You have to stop being "performance is the only thing that matters" zealots first, but this is impossible for you guys.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 2:21:57 PM , Rating: 2
I was talking about gamers buying the best of the best hardware for a 50% markup for only a 10% increase in performance.

As for buying a Mac, you can't be part of the Church of Apple, without buying a Mac every 2-3 years or at least when a new upgraded model that provides a minor increase in performance comes out.

Mac users buy the laptops for the cool looking factor more than anything else. Hell, go up to a majority of them an ask about the battery life and cooling. You'll find that they have no idea on it's battery life and it'll spend most of it's time plugged in, which puts it's weight as a non-factor.

Cooling. You're the only moron posting about that and it's a moot point anyways and you aren't tell me anything. No vents on the bottom (only on some Macbooks) doesn't make your cooling better. It just means the vents are not on the bottom. If the Mac has lower temps, then you can say it's better. As of right now, vent locations doesn't mean much. Considering other laptops also have zero vents on the bottom or simply have zero vents at all.


By Pirks on 4/21/2009 1:19:26 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
No vents on the bottom doesn't make your cooling better. It just means the vents are not on the bottom
When you put your cheapo WinPC notebook on a soft surface and it blocks the incoming airflow through the stupid bottom holes - you'll sing totally different song.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 6:45:54 PM , Rating: 2
You're such a flip-flopper Pirks. That is why nobody takes you seriously here. I like chatting it up with you because it's entertaining.

First, you are defending Apple products because you are paying for 'better quality' or 'better performance', etc. Then you are bashing me for saying "People have a need for a gaming platform" by arguing against the cost of a higher end gaming platform. I don't get it...

And please, enough of your retarded Cars are Computers rhetoric, it's lame.

PC Gaming isn't a 'niche' market. Niche market would be Apple notebooks according to marketshare numbers.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 7:11:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
PC Gaming isn't a 'niche' market
PC Gaming != expensive gaming PCs. The gaming is not a niche, the expensive $2000+ gaming towers are.
quote:
I don't get it
I'm just saying that bashing niche markets and their buyers is stupid. Minority buys their stuff 'cause they like it. We are no judges here.

I don't bash expensive gaming PCs, I just say that only a few people need them. Same is true for Macs of course.


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 7:21:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm just saying that bashing niche markets and their buyers is stupid


Oh really? Is that why a few posts back you said this:

quote:
who needs expensive gaming PCs these days? It's a niche market.


Regardless to whether gaming PC's are a niche, I still know more people who own them than people I know who own Macs.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 11:53:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I still know more people who own them than people I know who own Macs
It's because you're a gamer too. Similar minded people stick together, you know.


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 6:32:46 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's because you're a gamer too.


Is that so? Well....that's news to me!

quote:
Similar minded people stick together, you know.


So I guess in that case that must mean you have 0 friends.

Regardless to your ridiculous comment, I still know of no one who has a Mac, let alone befriend them, but after speaking to you, I think i'd rather stick to my so-called similar minded friends as you say, as you are the absolute epitomy of a Mac user.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 2:49:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I still know of no one who has a Mac
You must be a loner :)) Or you live on farm in a rural area or something... I heard rural areas have very low Mac user population indeed.


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 5:33:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You must be a loner :))


Rich coming from the only person in Apples defence.


By BailoutBenny on 4/18/2009 1:29:16 PM , Rating: 2
Pirks,
So here $2000+ for a desktop pc, which can handily whoop any Mac's ass in performance, is expensive but a MBP for almost $3k is what? Cheap? Especially when you can get a notebook for $1k or less that is comporable to the highest priced MBP in performance (using XP or a Linux distro, $1500 for a notebook running Vista)? You are a souless hypocrit and what is worse you debate like a politician. People like you are the reason I do NOT buy Apple products, besides the fact that they charge more for less.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 3:00:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
$2000+ for a desktop pc, which can handily whoop any Mac's ass in performance, is expensive but a MBP for almost $3k is what? Cheap?
No, it's not cheap at all. It's expensive, very expensive.
quote:
notebook for $1k or less that is comporable to the highest priced MBP in performance
Performance is not the only metric people use when choosing a notebook.


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 3:28:42 PM , Rating: 2
Why do you keep vehemently defending a product you do not have yourself, nor can afford?

Don't give me the "I have the best job lol" routine. It's already been proven you are a child and still living with your parents. It must be pretty lonely being a loner. I bet all the other kids in your neighborhood won't play with you.

Poor guy.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 3:56:05 PM , Rating: 2
Louder, louder, whaa, and don't forget to jump higher too ;) I like the funny way you jump around :)))


By SavagePotato on 4/19/2009 2:02:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
TextPerformance is not the only metric people use when choosing a notebook.


Style is not a metric that the vast majority of the computer using populace use when choosing a notebook. Price is and has always been the bottom line for the majority. What was that? netbook revolution? people buying slow as mud netbooks for 300 dollars in droves? yeah.

Some day maybe (but probably not) it will sink into your head that a computer is a tool not something that defines who you are. It does a job, that is it's purpose. Many people feel the same way about your favorite comparison cars as well. In fact the majority do.

People that let their possessions determine their identity are known as tools as well, to the people that let their actions determine their identity. Tools like you Pirks.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 3:08:35 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Price is and has always been the bottom line for the majority
Yeah, people buy not the best goods but the goods they can afford. Who would have thought! Thanks for enlightening me, Captain Obvious :)
quote:
People that let their possessions determine their identity are known as tools as well, to the people that let their actions determine their identity. Tools like you Pirks.
Shit, now you attacked your older brother Whaaaclown, 'cause he possesses a Mac, not me :)) Poor idiot Whaaa, get hammered like that by his sibling, must be hurting, huh? I guess this is why that fucking Whaaaclown has shut up recentlty, heheee :))


By Whaaambulance on 4/19/2009 3:14:23 PM , Rating: 2
Such a cute little forum monkey resorting to his silly pre-school antics to get attention. How does my Banana taste, my little forum monkey?

I will remind you of when I laid down my banana and you came to taste it....

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=14889...

Awww how cute... I love my little forum monkey. Hes such an entertaining little guy.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 4:48:16 PM , Rating: 2
What a nice jump Whaaa :) Good job clown, now work some more.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 10:24:17 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Performance is not the only metric people use when choosing a notebook.


You're right. The main metric is price. Hence Apple's small marketshare.


By Pirks on 4/20/2009 2:00:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The main metric is price
No, the main metric is comfort. If you were not a "cheapo performance is everything" zealot you'd see that performance is not the same as comfort.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 2:27:08 PM , Rating: 2
Guess that means Mac have the worst comfort levels, since no one buys them.

Also wtf kind of metric is that?

price
usability
performance
portability
battery life

comfort? I'm not buying a car. Laptop keyboards/touchpads aren't comfortable and they're all the same. Flat. The only difference between them is layout. Comfort, that'd be the dumbest metric for a computer.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 10:21:57 AM , Rating: 2
PC Gaming = a PC capable of gaming. It doesn't have to be expensive. You can easily build a $1000 computer that is capable of playing every PC game out there. There's a reason PC games are to run on low end to high end hardware. That's cause a gaming PC can be low end and move up to high end.

Niche markets are niche markets, cause majority of us either can't afford them or know they're stupid. I can afford a dual quad core machine with dual graphics cards, but I know it won't increase experience in a game.

Bashing isn't meaningless. It's a learning tool. Eventually the tool, will learn from the bashing and no longer be a tool.


By SavagePotato on 4/19/2009 1:53:11 PM , Rating: 2
This here outlines just how dumb you are pirks.

Did you ever stop a second to consider people need 18 wheelers you f-ing putz? Excuse me while I go try to hook up a set of b-trains to your ferarri and see how well that gets the job done. Ohhhhh you mean that there are different computers for different jobs? can you f-ing believe it pirks? Incredible.

You defeated your own argument with your own stupidity.

A computer with mobility is not what everyone needs, shocker. Furthermore if he did, he could build a 2000 dollar desktop rig that smashes any apple product including the mac pro, AND buy a windows notebook having both mobility and a killer desktop at home for less than one mac product combined.

So I guess he got the 18 wheeler and a chevy corvette that still outperforms your ferarri for less, since all you seem to be able to understand is cars in your messed up fetal alcohol syndrome brain.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 3:13:29 PM , Rating: 2
This shows how little brain you have potato. So this guy can buy two P.O.S. cars instead of one exotic luxury car. Great, good for him. Now what? :))


By SavagePotato on 4/19/2009 11:07:57 PM , Rating: 2
Oh my god you are f-ing dumb. There aren't even words to describe what an unbelievable cretin you are. Every time you open your mouth I consider joining a religion, so I could pray for you to never ever ever reproduce under any circumstance.

Listen you insufferable and useless waste of space...

A highway tractor and a f-ing Ferrari do not do the same thing. A corvette however does do the same thing if not better and for a third the price, also most of those trucks cost 150k dollars plus and have a build quality your pea sized brain can't even comprehend. You blew by the analogy by so far that you are in Pakistan having a conversation with a goat or something(right on your level).

Using analogies on you is like playing chess with someone with down syndrome...

Please for the love of god (if there were a god) STOP inflicting your unbelievable stupidity on everyone on this site.

Please, every time you open your mouth you say something stupider than the last time, you are an embarrassment to the human race and an affront to concept of natural selection. End your life while there is still time to save future generations from yourself and any possible offspring that are as large a cretin as yourself.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 11:59:11 PM , Rating: 1
Go fuck yourself stupid potato idiot and stop polluting this forum with your meaningless Pakistani goat garbage.


By Whaaambulance on 4/20/2009 2:12:02 PM , Rating: 2
Poor little monkey is so angry. He is so frustrated he is using curse words.

You better give him a banana before he really goes crazy.


By cpeter38 on 4/17/2009 5:01:14 PM , Rating: 3
1 year ago I picked up a Sony Dual Core machine. 2 hour of work (downloads and deleting Sony Crudware) + 2 GB of memory later, I have a great machine that cost me <$300 TOTAL. Granted, it only has a 15 in. screen, but it is equal in speed to the Macbook Pro and I have all the goodies on it (Open Office, Gimp, etc.).

HMMMMM:

$300 or $3000 .....

Such a hard decision!!


By leexgx on 4/19/2009 7:47:20 AM , Rating: 2
at its only £20 most of my customers i service i am trying to get them all back onto norton antivirus or NIS 2009 £20/£25), the new norton protects far better then avg and updates very offen and only does tasks that slow the pc down when the pc is idle for 10 mins (default) and stops tasks if you come back, as well it also uses small amount of ram as well as there older ones was starting to use aloit of mem (Norton 360 is still useing Bloted code from 2008 ver so that one is slow)

the older avg 7.5 was good the new 8-8.5 tend to slow the pc down

i do it more now as it fits in wiht my year service i do with alot of my customers


By Whaaambulance on 4/20/2009 2:15:17 PM , Rating: 2
ATTENTION: I have figured out why Pirks exists on these forums!

I have it all figured out. You see, Dailytech gets paid for traffic, page views and click-throughs. So it only makes sense for them to post these silly Mac vs PC threads. They get the most hits! So why wouldn't they hire some completely retarded forum monkey to argue every single users post? Pirks is here to bring in traffic for DT! Maybe? Hmmmm...


By iFX on 4/17/2009 12:21:00 PM , Rating: 3
Coincidently I decided this week to build myself a new desktop. Here is a rundown of the build using parts from Newegg.

Hardware:
Antec Three Hundred: $59.95
SeaSonic SS-500ES: $64.99
EVGA 113-M2 AM2+: $79.99
G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB): $37.99
AMD Phenom II 940 3.0 GHZ: $214.99
WD Caviar SE 80GB: $33.99
WD Caviar GP 500GB: $59.99
LG 20X DVD+R x 2: $43.98
ALTEC LANSING VS2420 2.0: $27.99
MS USB Wireless Optical Desktop: $25.99
Hans-G 22" 5ms LCD: $149.99

Software:
MS Vista Home Basic (64-bit): $89.99
OpenOffice 3.0: Free
PDFCreator 0.9.8: Free
Foxit PDF Reader: Free
Irfanview 4.23: Free
Winamp 5.5: Free
AVG Anti-Virus: Free
Mozilla Thunderbird email client: Free
CCCP: Free

And lastly:

Product updates from Microsoft: Free

So that's around $890 + $30 or so for shipping. Uhhhh and why would I want an Apple again?




By PrazVT on 4/17/2009 12:58:51 PM , Rating: 3
I think software can be debated forever b/t MS and Apple. If there are a finite number of basic / mainstream tasks that you need to do, then a Mac is fine. I had OS X installed on a few of my machines for a while, but ultimately when I needed to do video / audio encoding or play games (which is less important in this discussion), I ended up rebooting into Windows. We have a pilot program here at Cisco where employees can get mac book pros when it's time for their computer refreshes. My co-worker decided to go w/ the mac, but thus far he's been running windows via vmware fusion, just because things don't work exactly the same. But for the work he needs to do (MS Office-related stuff mostly), he'll get used to it.

The thing that irks me most about Mac books is that you're getting lower spec hardware and paying more for it. PERIOD.
My new thinkpad W500 (C2D 2.53ghz, 4gb, 160gb hdd, webcam, wireless n, FireGL V5700(hd3650)/IntelGM4500 graphics, dvd-rw, 1680x1050 screen, 9 cell battery, was about $300 cheaper than said coworker's mac (4gb, 2.4ghz C2D, dvd-rw, nvidia 9400/9600, 250gb, wireless n).

I get the same or better battery life, + a dock for less $$.

So as long as Apple admits it's putting inferior hardware in their machines and they're jacking up the prices b/c of "advanced" software, then OK. Fair enough.

Because that is the only remotely plausible reason for the high prices.


By iFX on 4/17/2009 2:21:58 PM , Rating: 2
Put the crack pipe down.

I used to get ten hours of battery life with my old HP NC6000 with the travel battery (replaced DVD drive).


By TomZ on 4/17/2009 4:08:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Put the crack pipe down.
I think the OP is right, that the OS has a significant role in battery life. For example, there were a lot of user complaints that their battery life decreased when going from XP to Vista. And I can also tell you from personal experience that my battery life increased when I went from Vista to Windows 7.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 4:16:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Put the crack pipe down
How about asking Anandtech to put their crack pipe down too?

Eat this: http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.aspx?i=354...

MacBooks piss and poopoo on your Windows cheaposh1t hardware when we start comparing battery life on the batteries with the same capacity.

Pay attention to graphs in this article, like this one: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/dellstudioxps16...


By iFX on 4/17/2009 4:36:28 PM , Rating: 2
It sure sounds like they need to.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 5:18:48 PM , Rating: 1
No, it's YOU who needs to put the pipe down and stop comparing your notebook with TWO batteries with other notebooks that have ONE battery.


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 5:41:26 PM , Rating: 2
From almost EVERY reply you've posted on this article thus far, I think by now all of us get the picture that battery life is better on the Macbooks.

Got anything else to add for a change?.....


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 5:56:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Got anything else to add for a change?
Of course I do :) MacBook cooling system is better too :P No stupid incoming airflow holes at the bottom of the notebook.


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 6:05:38 PM , Rating: 2
And where are your precious graphs to prove this?...


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 6:23:42 PM , Rating: 2
You mean photos of macbooks without ventilation holes at the bottom? Like this one? -> http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/38170.jpg


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 6:32:57 PM , Rating: 2
Well that's not particularly what I had in mind, but kudos for your relentless unwarrented and unwavering support for Apple products.

But, just between me and you, I don't think it's doing you much justice. You're.....how does the expression go.....fighting a losing battle. You should quit while you're ahead (namely after talking about battery life), and find yourself another hobby.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 7:26:39 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Well that's not particularly what I had in mind
I'm deeply sorry then. May I ask what did you have in mind?
quote:
kudos for your relentless unwarrented and unwavering support for Apple products
Kudos for your relentless unwarranted and unwavering lies about Apple products.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 7:28:40 PM , Rating: 2
I don't see where he was lying about an Apple product.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 11:59:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't see where he was lying about an Apple product
I don't see where I was relentlessly unwarrantedly and unwaveringly defending an Apple product either.


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 12:02:31 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't see where I was relentlessly unwarrantedly and unwaveringly defending an Apple product either


Do I really need to copy & paste about 90% of your posts in this forum?


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 1:08:45 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Do I really need to copy & paste about 90% of your posts in this forum?
You mean those where I fix some dumb lies that a few idiots try to spread? Sure, go ahead :)


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 7:31:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Kudos for your relentless unwarranted and unwavering lies about Apple products.


I'm sorry, you seem to have misinformed me.

Please step me into the direction as to where I have even formed an opinion about Apple products, let alone lied about them?


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 12:05:07 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
where I have even formed an opinion about Apple products, let alone lied about them?
Where have I relentlessly unwarrantedly and unwaveringly defended an Apple product?


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 6:48:47 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Where have I relentlessly unwarrantedly and unwaveringly defended an Apple product?


Umm...Perhaps by posting the same thing about 50 times to get your meaningless point across.

Well, let's just say hypothetically you're right, and I have lied.
Well, that wouldn't be a lie about Apple products, would it? It would in fact be a lie about you. Besides, what I said was opinion, albeit the opinion of most people who post on this site, so how can my subjective evaluation be a lie? That's just like me saying you love Apple is a lie.

You really should the iDefend off for a change. It's evidently causing you so much undue stress.


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 7:09:38 AM , Rating: 2
You really should turn the iDefend off for a change is what I meant to say.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 3:07:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
.Perhaps by posting the same thing about 50 times
Ask liars like Chicko why they post their lies 50 times so I have to debunk them all the time.


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 5:19:02 PM , Rating: 2
You see, even when the cold facts are laid right in front of you, you still find some FUD to counteract with, because you cannot admit to defeat. You're always right. You're the laughing stock of this site, you know?

It's there, $129, on your beloved Apple site. Oh, so it's cheaper elsewhere, so what? It's still $129 on the Apple site and as much as you try to avoid it the fact remains.

You've debunked nothing, all you have done is cherry picked a few prices which you have found cheaper. This doesn't prove Chicko is a liar, it only proves your relentlessness and unwillingness to admit defeat.

Here it is, 50 times, so you get the point, after all, thats how much it takes for you to get your point across...

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/prod