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Arik Hesseldahl, a writer for Forbes and Business Week, blasts the latest Microsoft commercials, writing, "Rather than running ads that seem clever at first but really aren't, the Windows guys ought to take the hint and just build better computers." An Apple spokesperson adds, "A PC is no bargain when it doesn't do what you want."  (Source: YouSendIt)

Mr. Hesseldahl's dream machine is the Apple 17" MacBook Pro, which comes at a wallet-breaking price of $2,899.  (Source: Apple)
An Apple spokesperson fires back over Microsoft's latest commercials

Microsoft has been on a roll, taking its fight to Apple with a trio of Laptop Hunter commercials. The commercials were designed by Crispin Porter+Bogusky that show average Joes (or Janes) looking for laptops and choosing PCs over Macs, while casting aspersions on the Macs in a purportedly unbiased independent study.  The first ad, with Laptop Hunter Lauren, still has yet to be surpassed in popularity, but all the commercials resonate on some level with customers who are less willing to pay the luxury prices associated with Apple-brand models.

However, Apple and its supporters won't go down quietly.  Business Week's Arik Hesseldahl, along with an Apple spokesperson have called out the Windows supporters in the tech community arguing that they don't understand quality and economics, and that they are picking inferior machines.  He writes, "Yes, $699 beats the $2,800 you'd pay for a Mac with a 17-in. screen. But when it comes to PCs, there's still a great deal more to buy."

He says that antivirus software needed to protect PCs against "nasty viruses, worms, and other malware lurking on the Internet" is another $50/year in expenses.  He says that Lauren will end up paying $150 over 3 years for such protection.  He writes, "No need for antivirus on the Mac."

Of course, Apple recently recommended its users purchase an antivirus program and the platform is becoming increasingly vulnerable to application level exploits, so this isn't entirely accurate, but that doesn't stop Mr. Hesseldahl as he tacks on more charges.  He equates an out-of-warranty service with Best Buy's Geek Squad ($129) with a free diagnosis at the Genius Bar in Apple's retail stores.

He tacks on more fees for the iLife software suite.  He says that Lauren's machine comes with Muvee Reveal ($80) and CyberLink DVD suite ($104), but that there's lots missing.  He says a PC equivalent of iLife would also require a copy of Adobe Photoshop Elements with Photoshop.com Plus membership ($140), Sonic Solutions' Roxio Creator 2009 ($100) and the Garage Band-equivalent Cubase Sequel ($100).

He adds up these extras ($619), with the cost of the computer ($699), and writes, "Add it all up and it's not hard to imagine Lauren's $699 computer costing something closer to $1,500."

While the math is a bit curious he does offer some technically accurate points, arguing that features like battery life (8 hrs. versus 2.5 hrs. for the HP, by his estimates) and superior screen make the 17-inch MacBook Pro (his model of choice) more than worth the $1,000+ difference between it and the Windows notebook with his extras tacked on.

He concludes, "Even if Lauren doesn't care about pixels and multimedia software, her machine still doesn't measure up when it comes to overall consumer satisfaction. No less an authority than Consumer Reports rated Lauren's computer fourth in a class of six with 17- to 18-in. displays. The MacBook Pro was tops, despite its higher price."

And to top it off, he gets word from Apple itself blasting the new commercials.  An Apple spokesperson, Bill Evans, comments, "A PC is no bargain when it doesn't do what you want.  The one thing that both Apple and Microsoft can agree on is that everyone thinks the Mac is cool. With its great designs and advanced software, nothing matches it at any price."

Microsoft declined to respond to Apple's statement.

Mr. Hesseldahl concludes with more select comments, stating, "Microsoft and its hardware partners wouldn't have to make this case had they focused less in the past decade on driving prices down and more on quality....  PC makers in the Windows camp have done everything possible to make their products progressively worse by cutting corners to save pennies per unit and boost sales volume. There's good reason Apple is seeing healthy profits while grabbing market share. It refuses to budge on quality and so charges a higher price. Rather than running ads that seem clever at first but really aren't, the Windows guys ought to take the hint and just build better computers."



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By Brandon Hill (blog) on 4/17/2009 10:50:27 AM , Rating: 5
I mean seriously, why pay for anivirus? I use AVG Free. There sure are others like AntiVir and Avast as well. Total cost $0.

As for paying for Photoshop Elements? Try Paint.net or GIMP. Total cost $0.




By Zshazz on 4/17/2009 10:58:28 AM , Rating: 5
Yeah, and you're forgetting the extra costs associated with being a Mac user. Namely, having to get colon surgery to get the Apple out of your ass after you've been ****ed with it.


By matt0401 on 4/17/2009 1:55:59 PM , Rating: 3
The argument is more PC vs. Mac. Ubuntu fits into the PC camp here. This is one of the main advantages, you can use whatever OS you want to. Ubuntu, Windows, anything x86 (and now x64).


By FingerMeElmo87 on 4/17/2009 2:37:40 PM , Rating: 5
you're not a very well informed person are you? Vista Premium 32/64 bit $99.99. OSX Leopard $129.99. wheres the arm and the leg???


By Akrovah on 4/17/2009 6:36:12 PM , Rating: 5
He's not really lying. While OS X is available from your linked site for 89 bucks, the site you linked states very clearly that this is a sale price. When we actually go to Apple.com we still get $129.00

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?fnode=M...

Newegg however does have Leapard priced at only 115, and it looks like a permanent non-sale price.


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 6:57:44 PM , Rating: 5
You really are relentless, aren't you?

All of that undue searching and cherry picking, arguing the most meaningless points to the bone.

The only liar here is you. Lying to yourself that you made the right choice in purchasing a Mac.

You're convincing no one.


By JoshuaBuss on 4/19/2009 9:38:49 PM , Rating: 2
then why do you keep defending them like a part of you dies every time someone points out something they don't like about them?

this comparison is ridiculous. I don't know anyone who uses AV software with Vista, and I don't know very many people who don't either:

A) Know how to get the apps they want / need for significantly less than retail
B) Know how to get alternatives to common apps that are free
C) Don't need said apps anyway.

The worse part is comparing the PC's service plan without even mentioning the cost of the apple care plan.


By Akrovah on 4/17/2009 7:03:20 PM , Rating: 2
Perhaps not lying so much as... misinformed.


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 7:04:35 PM , Rating: 1
Good point. But it's impossible to inform someone who always thinks they're right, hence being a liar.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 7:44:01 PM , Rating: 1
Well, Pirks thinks he is doing the right thing by informing us all by pronouncing his opinions as facts, and then proceeding to ridicule those who do not agree with his opinions.

Other than that, Pirks is a great guy.........


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 6:20:36 AM , Rating: 2
So you don't deny being an Apple zealot? Then again, how could you?

Furthermore, has it ever occurred to you that perhaps that's not a lie, and it is in fact $129 as advertised on the Apple site?

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?fnode=M...

Everything seems to be a lie to you. You even think people are lying when they have in fact not even formed an opinion on the particular subject, let alone tried to make out something they have said is fact.

Whilst we're on the topic of being subjective, hows this for an opinion, on behalf of everyone who posts here...

You're an ass!


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 10:39:55 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
he always posts bullsh1t here

Sounds familiar, don't you think?

quote:
Apple zealot? Who, you are?

What this says to me is that you have nothing more to say.

You just don't get it, do you?

quote:
Like Waaa, a hidden one who loves his MacBook and caresses it secretly but pretends to be objective here.


As he has said in many previous posts, he bashes zealots, not Apple. You, on the other hand, as an Apple lover, take everything as a personal attack towards your beloved Apple and twist it because you have to make your point. Similar to how Mac users feel the need to constantly jusify themselves for spending an exorbitant amount of money on something that in many peoples opinions is not worth it.


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 1:47:13 PM , Rating: 2
Show me where I have not been objective.

I have always been neutral on the stance of mac vs pc.

I have not been neutral on the stance of opinionated morons posting to hear themselves talk or argue for the sake of argument.

I think you will find that I am quite objective. And you will not find one point of hypocrisy unlike the majority of your posts. We have been down this road, you know I am correct :)


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 2:40:30 PM , Rating: 1
I can sum up your "cold hard facts" into these simple categories:

1. Apple MBP cooling & Trackpad
2. Computers are like cars
3. Crysis is the last of its kind PC exclusive
4. Anything you cherry pick to have something to show that you know a fact, incase we call you out on your multiple biased opinions.

You post these things over... and over.... and over.... and over. We get it already.


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 3:48:30 PM , Rating: 1
I find this post amusing since none of it is true, like most of your posts.

You're such a cute little forum monkey, Pirks. You amuse us all so well.


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 3:50:59 PM , Rating: 2
Show me where I have said any of that, and I will give you a cookie.


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 3:56:49 PM , Rating: 2
Also, I like how you bring an entire discussion down to a pissing match. Usually you being laughed at by everyone on here, and you being ignorant and pretending that people care about what you have to say.

Oh snaps.. look it's sunny outside, I think I will head out and leave you to replying to every one of my comments as you spend the rest of your day jerking off to yourself and your lack of money/talent/knowledge and women.

:)


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 10:44:46 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I will say that many of your posts seem to have been downrated for no reason, but I would also like to say that Chicko was lying. Apple advertises it for $129. That's a fucking fact
Chicko was using MSRP for OS X and some e-tailer discounted price for a stripped down version of Vista. If he was using MSRP for non-stripped down version of Vista ($399) I wouldn't complain. But he didn't, he purposefully deceited and lied about the OS prices.
quote:
If it can't autodetect it I don't know of any other way to get it to work. I'm sure there probably is, but I'm also sure it's probably not very simple to do either.
Same sh1t with Vista, TOTALLY same sh1t. If you try to share your media library and you got public network(s) in addition to private network(s) on your PC - you're SCREWED, man. Try to figure out how to do THAT, huh? :P Saying that Vista is somehow more user friendly or simple than OS X is a lie, I know 'cause I use both.


By Alexstarfire on 4/19/2009 2:06:38 AM , Rating: 2
I never said I was talking about Vista first off. I don't like Vista either. I find XP easier to use if something should go wrong, but I think that might be because I have used it more. As far as being able to network with public and private networks.... I have no idea. I don't have that to deal with and never have, so I can't say anything one way or the other. I've never had trouble connecting to any network that I'm aware of though. And at LAN parties, I'm talking 20+ computers, you have a variety of different computers to deal with.

Secondly, I didn't know what version of Vista he was talking about. I was talking just about the price he quoted for OS X, nothing more. While I don't think his comparison is fair, neither is yours. You can't compare Vista Ultimate Premium, or whatever the hell it's really called, to OS X. Now I wouldn't go compare OS X to the lowest version of Vista, which I think is OEM only BTW, as it is very crippled and not much of an OS if you ask me. But comparing it to Vista Home Basic is completely fair. It can do EVERYTHING that home users will want to do, unless you happen to want to author DVDs. You'll need a different program to do that.

And BTW, the MSRP for Vista Home Basic is $199.95 in which case OS X is cheaper. Granted I have no idea how old that page is on the Microsoft site. Newegg lists the Retail version of Vista Ultimate at $189.95 which is oddly cheaper than the Retail version of Vista Home Basic. Ohhh, and the MSRP for Vista Ultimate is $319.95, not this $399 you speak of. This comes straight off of the Microsoft website. So please, stop making up random sh!t.


By Alexstarfire on 4/19/2009 3:26:09 PM , Rating: 2
Well, this is straight from Microsoft so I doubt they have it wrong since they MADE the OS.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-vista/com...

And as I said before, you can find the retail version far cheaper.


By themaster08 on 4/19/2009 5:57:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Windows Vista Ultimate Retail $399

2 years ago.

If you care to look at the very bottom, you will find the following:

November 8, 2006
Updated February 14, 2007; March 21, 2007


By themaster08 on 4/19/2009 8:13:40 PM , Rating: 3
No. I just thought i'd correct you after you're constantly going around correcting other peoples' so-called "lies".

If you want my advice....if you don't like it done to you, then I suggest you stop doing it to other people.


By themaster08 on 4/20/2009 5:59:13 AM , Rating: 2
That's fair enough, but you really should give the Chicko thing a rest now, it's getting kinda tedious.


By themaster08 on 4/19/2009 7:55:59 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Saying that Vista is somehow more user friendly or simple than OS X is a lie, I know 'cause I use both.

You see, that word again. You know what your problem is? You can't tell the difference between an opinion and fact

If someone said to me that Vista is a more user friendly OS, then that is their opinion, so how on earth can it be a lie?

Fair enough if you use both, but that is your opinion that OSX is a more user friendly OS.
In some respects I agree with you, due to using OSX for about 6 months. The problem is though, coming from a user who already enjoys using Windows, it's not that I have anything against it, but I just can't adapt to it in the same way I did when I first used Windows. I just felt like it was a childs toy, it made me, as what I would class as a more advanced user feel somewhat condescended and patronised. I can see the appeal though, particularly to those less computer illiterate. That's my opinion though, don't bash me for it!

It's just a matter of taste. No one is lying, so please.....


By SavagePotato on 4/19/2009 1:22:30 PM , Rating: 2
The only time the words cold and hard come into play describing you, is in reference to the cold hard rocks in your head, or the cold hard brick wall of stupidity that you represent.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 2:57:47 PM , Rating: 2
Hehe, potato idiot, as late to the game as ever :)) Probably been too busy loving his nasty little bro Chicko :P


By HinderedHindsight on 4/18/2009 4:19:00 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
and dont bring Ubuntu up, its not even the same level.


You're right, it's much further ahead than both Windows and Mac- it's free, comes with a full office suite that has strong compatibility with office, cd burning suite, and has equal, if not better effects than both. It is fully extensible and customizable. It is compact (much smaller hard disk footprint) and has far less resource utilization than Windows OS's.

Upon install, it recognized and was able to use all the hardware on my laptop without the need to download drivers. I can't say that about any Windows OS. Even my USB-serial cable that I use to configure networking devices is automatically recognized, while Windows still requires drivers. About my favorite part of Ubuntu is live disc.

Further, full revisions, point releases, and updates are free.

Many of the changes to core functionality in Vista came straight from the Unix/Linux world.

Personally, I use Ubuntu as a host OS with Windows (both XP and Vista) as guest OS'. And I will regularly forgo even booting Windows in favor of using built in apps; about the only thing I use my Windows OS is for active directory/exchange/MSSQL management tools, Outlook and testing software installs, and syncing my mobile device. Mobile devices are the one area that I will say Vista got almost totally right that Ubuntu just can't match (or if it can, I haven't found it yet).

My only other real complaint about Ubuntu has to do with the inconsistent behavior of ALSA and Pulse Audio drivers.

But from a technical and feature level perspective, Ubuntu is more than comparable to Windows and Mac OSX, even from a ground 0 installation point of view. There's a reason why many vendors are validating it as an OS on machines that traditionally had Windows (particularly on Netbooks).


By borismkv on 4/18/2009 11:08:36 PM , Rating: 3
I can get a 1 terabyte hard drive for close to 150 bucks. I'm sorry, but you're living in the 90s if OS footprint is a major problem in your book.


By Alexstarfire on 4/19/2009 2:12:13 AM , Rating: 3
I don't believe he was just referring to HDD space, but RAM, CPU, and GPU as well. Just a thought.


By JoshuaBuss on 4/19/2009 5:47:33 PM , Rating: 2
tell that to owners of 4G asus EEE PCs.

there's always gonna be a place for a small footprint system.. and trying to make the argument that it's OK for software to be bloated simply because we have a lot of hard drive space is like saying it's OK to have a gas guzzler as long as gas is cheap :]


By Akrovah on 4/17/2009 7:00:44 PM , Rating: 1
You forget that when you buy a windows computer, you already have a "GENUINE" copy of Windows. So that is not really an extra expense.


By Zshazz on 4/18/2009 12:49:49 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
For my money, I'm going with Ubuntu.

And don't give me this, "Mac sux because its expensive" and then turn around and say that "Ubuntu sux because it doesn't do what I want it to do."


You know, it's interesting you mention that. I dual-boot Ubuntu and Vista. I like both, so I use both. :) This is the essence of PC: choice.

Apple is all about "you have to get an official Mac with amazingly high marked up prices" ... if someone tries to make a clone, they get sued into oblivion. They don't want you to make any choice if they don't profit heavily from it.

Yeah yeah, they'll sit there and make claims that they use "higher quality parts", but the majority of them are no different than a standard PC part. Occasionally there's a nice part, such as EFI, or the nice batteries in their laptops (a 5+ hour battery in a 17-inch laptop is something I'd be interested in), but the general parts they use ... is the SAME. They aren't sprinkled with magic pixie dust... it's the SAME.

If you compare top-of-the-line PC parts with Mac parts, you'll see the PC is actually superior in quality ... yet, still cheaper than a Mac. But, the disadvantage is that you'd have to build it yourself. Oh well, you can't win it all!


By matt0401 on 4/17/2009 2:42:42 PM , Rating: 4
I hardly think this issue isn't worth looking into. There is a massive burden that may be thrust upon the American taxpayer to provide the money necessary for these colon reparations! You people need to take this more seriously...


By Jrouss on 4/17/2009 4:45:49 PM , Rating: 1
I can't stop laughing at this!!!


By MonkeyPaw on 4/17/2009 11:00:20 AM , Rating: 4
Yeah, it sounds like he's grasping at straws, and the only one he found was in his Apple Kool-aid.


By sprockkets on 4/17/2009 8:26:40 PM , Rating: 2
I remember back in the day when I was in elementary school. Having a $120 pair of shoes meant you are "cool", like those Reebok Pump shoes.

I guess he is right, in order to be "cool" you have to pay for overpriced hardware.


By JasonMick (blog) on 4/17/2009 11:00:46 AM , Rating: 5
First off, even his analysis fails at basic math skills:
Real World:
$699+$619=$1318
Distortion Field:
$699+$619=$1500

Best Buy Geek Squad? There only useful function is to send your computer out for warranty repair, something you could do yourself! Unless you are totally uninformed about computers/security you probably know close to as much as a lot of them. If you are that uninformed, ask your buddy who knows about computers to catch you up to speed.

And like you said Brandon -- Paint.net (free), AVG (free), Firefox NoScript (free), CrapCleaner (Free).

I think he does make some decent points about battery life and the screen (he leaves off the aluminum body, probably another perk), but I personally feel that doesn't justify the +$2,000 price increase.

He could make a solid case that the Apple Book Pro is a worthwhile luxury item. But instead he tries to compare it to a PC with distortion field math and rants. In the end, it comes off unfortunately as hopelessly biased.

I hope nobody actually uses that article as a basis of their next buying decision... O_o


By StevoLincolnite on 4/17/2009 11:06:54 AM , Rating: 5
There is a "Free" version for almost all software available around on the 'net, AVG, GIMP, DVD video software etc.

quote:
A PC is no bargain when it doesn't do what you want.


That made me laugh, considering most programs I use don't have an MACOS version, and most games don't support the Apple platforms either.

About the Screens, I would personally grab a Dell notebook with the RGB LED screens, they are simply awesome, cant fault apple on battery life however.


By icanhascpu on 4/17/2009 11:59:57 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
That made me laugh, considering most programs I use don't have an MACOS version


Like what?


By someguy123 on 4/18/2009 12:55:16 AM , Rating: 3
well, he does say games. you can consider every game a separate program.


By StevoLincolnite on 4/19/2009 2:35:05 AM , Rating: 2
Like my Compilers, Certain API's, Games, Network monitoring software, Wrappers etc'.


By chmilz on 4/17/2009 11:09:21 AM , Rating: 5
How about: I don't give a crap about any of the software he mentioned, like iLife. That's the beauty of PC, I get and pay for only what I want. Like a machine that games.

Oh the denial, Apple zealots.


By etherreal on 4/18/2009 4:49:27 PM , Rating: 4
Exactly, flexibility is the key. Buy what you want and you only have to pay for what you want. Avoid the Apple Lock-In.


By DM0407 on 4/17/2009 11:12:50 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
I think he does make some decent points about battery life and the screen (he leaves off the aluminum body, probably another perk), but I personally feel that doesn't justify the +$2,000 price increase.


AND you can run Office 2007 on a Mac.

Way to assume your consumers are technically retarded, mac.


By TomZ on 4/17/2009 12:43:49 PM , Rating: 3
The mac version would be Office 2008, not 2007.


By oab on 4/17/2009 1:25:06 PM , Rating: 5
Office 2008 > Office 2007, after all, the number is bigger, therefore it must be a better product!


By ice456789 on 4/17/2009 1:32:13 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Plus, yes, Apple does not assume that it's customers are technically proficient.
Of course not. If they were technically proficient most of them wouldn't be Apple customers so Apple is correct to assume they are not.


By just4U on 4/17/2009 11:27:28 AM , Rating: 3
I was thinking about that you know. Why didn't he try to make a case of it being a luxury item. People might have bought into that a little bit more then trying to justify the overall costs.

Ah well target practice anyone? Since he was kind enough to put that big ole bullseye around his neck.


By FingerMeElmo87 on 4/17/2009 12:40:42 PM , Rating: 4
His Distortion Field is in full effect here. the point on the commercials is simply this, not everyone has $2000-2800 to get a Mac (a descent one any way). why won't they come to terms with this? there shit is exspensive. also, with the truck loads of free A/V multimedia software out there, free antivirus and malware protection, and the fear of losing ones job, it makes it really difficult to justify buying an over priced pc.

sure it looks nice but you can find the exact same hardware in a much more practical and cheaper machine. and if you're looking for a pc in the same price range, you'll find a much more powerful, well round computer. case in point
http://www.gateway.com/systems/product/529668248.p...

and just a personal request to Crispin Porter+Bogusky, please drive the nail even further into Apple by comparing Desktops. iMacs are even bigger rips than there Macbooks.


By ShammGod126 on 4/17/2009 12:47:36 PM , Rating: 5
This is why we're in this financial mess. Guys at Forbes and other financial publications who can't add and erroneously report on something they have absolutely no knowledge of. Really just goes to show you how knowledgeable the real "experts" are...


By Digimonkey on 4/17/2009 1:22:13 PM , Rating: 5
Assuming the tax rate is 7 percent. Tax would still make it around $1400 not $1500, the Mac is taxed as well. So instead of $2800 it'd be more like $3000. You still have a huge gap there so your point is moot.

Vista is good OS, but I'm not going to argue that with you. Last I heard XP is still a free downgrade, so you messed up, but downgrading to XP is just a choice anyways and in no way is a necessity.

AVG is a fine anti-virus program. I haven't heard of any gripes with it. You can even google reviews of it, and see it always get's a rating around 4/5 stars/points or whatever.


By Alexstarfire on 4/17/2009 1:46:13 PM , Rating: 3
That's ok, I wouldn't be caught dead owning a brand spanking new Mac over my 2 year old PC. My dad being one of the biggest Apple zealots of all time I have seen this comparison before. I'm trying to remember if this was right before or right after their transition to Intel chips though. I think it was before... so it could be slightly different now. Only a 1 year old PC could beat the brand spanking new Mac. Considering all the things we can do with GPUs these days a Mac is probably far worse off. Costs an arm, a leg, and your left nut just so you can get the best 1 year old video card to put in your Mac since the newest ones aren't available. Though that's really only for desktops, not laptops. Laptops have shit GPUs in both worlds.

Anyway, if you've done even a little homework on anti-virus products you'd know that the free ones are not shit by any means. Many of them beat Norton and McAffee, not that they are very good anyway. My point is really that just because you pay for it doesn't mean it's good quality, just like something being free doesn't make it shit.

Of course if you're buying your computer in a store then you're not a very wise consumer anyway. Granted I believe the Apple Store and Apple website are the same price so it's rather moot for them. And you can get most of the program that he mentioned for a lot less. Buy them all from the same place online and you only pay for shipping once too.

Also, you don't like Vista.... get Linux. It's free. Vista ain't that bad anyway. I sure don't like it, but it does what I need it to do. Even if it takes me a while to figure it out. My sub $400 laptop does EVERYTHING, and then some, I need it to do. Not the most responsive though since it's got like 1GB of RAM with Vista, but it's not so bad.


By aebiv on 4/17/2009 2:01:13 PM , Rating: 2
My fiancee has had absolutely 0 issues with her sub $700 HP notebook. Even though the battery life isn't that great on the AMD system, it is dead reliable and has great build quality.

I've actually had more problems with my Studio XPS 13...

HP isn't the HP of old, they've gotten back into the game with full force. The union/buyout of Voodoo has done them well.


By Truxy on 4/17/2009 2:16:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
1318, and tax? and shipping if you order cds? and who is installing all this?

If you need to pay someone to install software from a CD you shouldn't own a PC or a Mac, you should stick to an etch-a-sketch or something similar.

You bought a PC with Vista. You knew it would have Vista on it before hand. XP preloaded is an option still, so a simple mistake on your part if you wanted XP instead.

Free Antivirus programs are generally fine, lots of good options out there. The only time I recommend paid license AV is for businesses who need reports and online management features. I've gone for 3-4 years with AVG Free and haven't had a virus (just scanned with about every tool recently).

The main reason PCs get slow over time is because people download and install software. Some of the software they download runs in memory as soon as Windows starts, and continues to run, sometimes randomly accessing files. When you have several programs doing this it slows the PC down for doing normal task. This is a user instigated issue, and has nothing to do with it being a PC. In some instances hard drives can get slower after extended use especially if they have bad sectors, but Macs have that problem as well. There's no magic behind PCs getting slower as they get older.

Macs are good PC's. They used to be the best option for graphics design, but IMO they slacked in developing better screens and everyone else caught up. They have a premium on them compared similarly specced Windows PCs.


By RjBass on 4/17/2009 4:38:27 PM , Rating: 2
Wow. You are really lost man. I purchased a $600 Compaq last December and guess how much I have paid since for that same PC...........not a dime. It does everything I need it to do, and if I need some software that I don't have, I go and get the free version, as there are free versions of just about anything you could possibly need for a PC.

I make my movies, burn my DVD's, check my email, and make Power Point presentations just like everybody else. I even make music, edit photos, and write love poems to my semi cool and totally hip girlfriend while drinking lattes in my turtle neck at my local coffee rip off shop on the corner.

I do all that and then look over at the stupid Apple chump who just paid $1500+ for a laptop that does the exact same thing, and I laugh at him.


By murphyslabrat on 4/18/2009 1:02:11 AM , Rating: 5
Maybe you haven't spent anything more on your computer, but I have. I've spent close to $400 on software that didn't come with my computer: stuff like Call of Duty 4, Left 4 Dead, etc. Microsoft should really get around to packaging those things with PC's.

And, actually, I could have saved that money if I had bought a mac, as those games don't run on one.


By RjBass on 4/19/2009 10:44:45 PM , Rating: 1
Wrong.

Surprisingly enough, more big title games are now appearing on Macs. My cousin from Brasil was just here to visit and he just so happened to be shopping for a laptop for school.

For kicks we brought him into the Apple store. Not only did he look disgusted with Apples prices, but my son and I were very surprised when we saw some of the software that was available for a Mac. COD4 was our biggest surprise.

Now here is the kicker. Most Macs don't come pre-installed with COD4, Photoshop, or any of that other high end software just like most of their PC counterparts. Mac's simply come with the cheap freeware type of software that allows you to do all those nice things when you purchase your new Mac. Apple in this regard did a very nice job of coming up with a fantastic package to pre-install with their computers, unlike most PC's where the user has to actually go out on the web and search for the programs they want to accomplish specific tasks.

Does all that freeware type software equal the much larger price tag? I think not.

I know Mac users are proud, I know they all feel like they belong to some special group that is somehow giving the finger to big bad Microsoft, but in the end, who is really ripping of it's customers more? Hmmmmmmmm


By RjBass on 4/19/2009 10:56:01 PM , Rating: 1
Just to help you out with that, here is the list of 1st Person Shooter games available for the Mac on Newegg. Granted it's only 6 games, but they are 6 really good games including Medal of Honor and Cod4. http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Sub...


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 9:05:51 AM , Rating: 2
There are multiple free AV softwares out there that rank the same and sometimes better than those you need to pay for.

Also why take your PC to geek squad, when you get a year warranty on them and you can purchase 3-5 years more coverage. No different than Apple Care. Also guess what? Apple users also go to geek squad after their warranty is up, as Apple stores aren't exactly as common as a BestBuy or well...any other PC repair shop.

My hometown alone has like 30 different PC repair shops. Nothing within 100 miles for an Apple Store or any Apple certified repair location.

If all I wanted to do on my machine is surf the web and do some chatting, I'd rather have a cheap HP, Dell, or Gateway over an expensive Apple. Hell even the Mac Minis have increased in cost since it's release.

Also if your getting quality from Apple, explain breaking Macbooks and exploding iPods? You don't get extra quality from Apple. You just get a prettier shell. My Dell Inspiron 5000e from 2001 still works for what I bought it for. Surfing the web and watching videos.


By Doormat on 4/17/2009 2:02:49 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Best Buy Geek Squad? There only useful function is to send your computer out for warranty repair, something you could do yourself! Unless you are totally uninformed about computers/security you probably know close to as much as a lot of them. If you are that uninformed, ask your buddy who knows about computers to catch you up to speed.


The Geek Squad comparison is entirely valid. GS might not know much compared to us tech guys but they still know far more than my parents and the average computer user.

Also, not everyone has tech savvy friends, and even if they do, the last thing I want to spend my free time doing is fixing all of my friends (and their friends) computers. At this point its family only and thats it. Even back when I did fix other people's computers, I still charged them for my time. If anything, you can probably increase that GS diagnostic fee, as the folks I know take their computers to GS usually have to take it back more than once because those guys aren't that good at fixing stuff.

If you're in warranty you can call Dell/HP for free, or take it in somewhere local (GS) for $129. Apple offers the best of both worlds - local free support. Even if its out of warranty Apple is still free to at least look at it, Dell is $49 for a phone call for out of warranty support.

The only downside is that Genius Bar access will become more limited as mac marketshare increases. Personally I haven't had too many problems with getting an appointment - the last time I had a problem with my MacBook (the HD failed) they had it back to me in under 24 hours with the OS and iLife reinstalled. Try that with having to mail in your laptop to Dell or HP.

But that doesn't change that Apple has to build more stores and hire more staff as more people buy Macs. Its just part of the price.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 6:22:53 PM , Rating: 2
Or it could be that nothing you are saying is worth reading.... just maybe...


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 1:55:34 PM , Rating: 2
Silly forum monkey, Pirks. Always dancing around in his little bow tie and doing flips for us with his cute little antics. Hes so adorable.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 3:26:05 PM , Rating: 2
Whaaa louder for me please :)


By spookynutz on 4/17/2009 6:44:20 PM , Rating: 1
I think you're living in la-la-land. Apple support is horrific. Most people who buy an Apple will be going to GS anyway, as there are no Genius Bar's available to the majority of the population. If you live in nowhere Iowa, you better book a flight to Des Moines, because that's the only Apple store in your state. The support you get at the Genius Bar isn't always stellar, either.

Conversely, if one of the Dell laptops I administer has a problem, I call Dell. Two days later there's a contracted technician at the site, parts in hand, ready to fix it. I have that level of support for five years with Dell and HP, and the cost per PC is still cheaper than the premium they'd pay buying a Mac.


By Pneumothorax on 4/17/2009 8:10:48 PM , Rating: 4
How about this: My unibody MBP, which I use at work, LCD controller burned out, it took me over a week to find a appointment slot at my nearest Apple Store. When I got there, the "genius" just reinstalled my OSX partition and appeared to "fix it". Got laptop home that night and again the screen started to flicker and then went completely dark. AGAIN I had to wait a week to find a damn time slot to see the "Genius"

BTW when my Dell XPS M1330's screen went out, a dell on-site repairman was at my office in 24 hours with new screen on hand. I paid $1300 for Dell laptop with 3 year on-site warranty and damage protection. My $2600 MBP has a crummy 1 year warranty only lolz. This is my last apple product other than a hackintosh!


By Alexstarfire on 4/17/2009 9:35:17 PM , Rating: 4
I'm glad you only talk about the US and not the other 5+ billion inhabitants on this planet. Didn't know only the US purchased computers.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 9:16:26 AM , Rating: 2
Going in twice to get a replacement AC adapters. That right there is what I'd consider a bad experience with a computer. Doesn't matter what your experience is with the Genius Bar, I shouldn't have to go see them about an AC adapter. Let alone go see them twice about it.


By segerstein on 4/17/2009 6:10:48 PM , Rating: 3
For the same price, HP EliteBook offers much better specs.

Regardless of high price you pay, you with MacBook Pro you don't get:
* HDMI 5.1 or even basic VGA out
* card reader
* dock station
* 8-bit matrix
* 2 disks (eg. SSD+HDD, could be in RAID 0/1)
* FireGL or Quadro graphics
* extra battery
* eSata
* 8GB RAM (even if you could stuff it in, OS 10 doesn't support it)

Yes, you get curved plastics and a fruit label. But is it worth overpaying?

Commercials did compare what one can get for a certain amount of money at Apple and other PC vendors. Non-Apple PC won every time.

It isn't fair comparing $700 PC machine to $2000 machine. Compare rather a $2000 non-Apple PC and $2000 Apple PC.

The stupidest thing of all is calling Apple's PC a "Mac", especially in a phrase "Mac vs PC". If a computer can run off-the-shelf Windows, then it's a PC, isn't it?

It's like "EliteBook vs PC" ...


By atlmann10 on 4/20/2009 2:47:00 PM , Rating: 2
You know the funny thing about all these apple debates is this. My brother is a MAC Faithful, and uses of course a Mac Book Pro. AT the same time he bought his MAC book Pro or shortly thereafter I bought a Gateway FX 7811. We both use them as mobile/sedentary desktop replacement units. I have actually had less problems and better performance. He also paid at least twice the amount I did, and has had memory and other issues. For a PC I don't see the reasoning and would be able to realize the mentality sensically only as say a 500-1000 dollar purse. I could build you a mac for half the price at home; all it really is, is an operating system as the hardware is basically exactly the same.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 11:20:12 AM , Rating: 4
I have come to the conclusion that the writer of the Business Week story is none other than Pirks...

Flame: On


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 1:49:49 PM , Rating: 4
Welcome to the conversation, Pirks.

I knew you would take the bait LOL!


By Zap08 on 4/17/2009 2:30:07 PM , Rating: 4
Every time I see an article or a comment on DT where mac fanboys are trying to justify why Macs are overpriced makes me wonder, how could someone be so stubborn. Even though the facts are laid out right in front of them, they still don't get it.

I just wish there was something I could present to explain what I'm talking about....Oh wait, there is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZHsHdPYJ8Q


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 11:36:32 PM , Rating: 2
HAHAHHA OMG That is totally Pirks....great find!


By SavagePotato on 4/19/2009 11:54:02 PM , Rating: 2
That is what I am going to picture from now on every time pirks posts.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 3:32:00 PM , Rating: 2
Well see, that's where you come in.

Let's turn this into another 500 post Apple vs. Mac commentary!

LULZ

BTW - Im not an Apple basher, never have been. I'm an Apple Zealot basher :)


By rudolphna on 4/17/2009 11:58:56 PM , Rating: 2
That was absolutely the most pointless, useless, and most unfunny post I have EVER read on DT. and that is saying something. Congratulations.


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 12:03:44 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
That was absolutely the most pointless, useless, and most unfunny post I have EVER read on DT. and that is saying something. Congratulations.


Welcome to Pirks.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 12:49:20 AM , Rating: 2
Learn what the irony is :)


By gucio69 on 4/17/2009 3:30:08 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Instead of focusing on direct competition with Apple (I mean you, Zune!) they somehow decided to reply to Apple commercials that were targeting Dell, HP and all the other OEMs.


Are you referring to the Apple commercials that say that Vista is a poor OS with a myriad of problems???? I might be an ignorant PC user but those seemed to be aimed squarely at Microsoft. I don't remember any characters named Dell or HP in those commercials. Reality distortion field indeed.


By Cheesew1z69 on 4/17/2009 3:37:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Are you referring to the Apple commercials that say that Vista is a poor OS with a myriad of problems???? I might be an ignorant PC user but those seemed to be aimed squarely at Microsoft. I don't remember any characters named Dell or HP in those commercials. Reality distortion field indeed.
No, it's not you who is the ignorant one.


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 7:12:59 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Did they just admit that Apple was right bashing them or what?

No. They just looked at their sales figues and laughed it up.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 10:40:17 AM , Rating: 2
Then they looked at their profits and ASP and cried :)))


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 10:54:49 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe, but I don't think any of them feel remotely threatened by Apple, more so by the recession, so don't feel the need to spend millions on advertising strategies to get back at something as futile as Apples PC bashing.

Has Apples marketing strategy paid off? Do you even know of anyone who saw their adverts and thought "Oh, I think I'll buy one of those" Because I sure as hell don't!


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 2:22:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't think any of them feel remotely threatened by Apple
Yeah, right, like the company with thin margin is never afraid of a company with four times bigger margin (Dell vs Apple). Sure, maybe in your dreams.
quote:
Because I sure as hell don't
You don't, I do, he does, she doesn't, so what? Use financial numbers, not your personal stories about your friends and stuff.


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 5:03:09 PM , Rating: 2
You've obviously got something to say in Apples defence for ABSOLUTELY everything.
Now do you see why you are known as an Apple zealot?
No, of course not. After all, i'm wrong and you're right.

The thing is though, at least if it did come to a stage where you were actually right, I would accept it, but you are unable to return the favour. You'd find some FUD to spout to counteract what has been said, even when the facts are laid right before you.
Typical Apple lover. Of course, you can't see it from other peoples' perspective and think you're being downrated due to people being afraid of the truth. If this is the case, then why is it only you that ever agrees with anything you spout? Does it not ring any bells?
No, of course not. After all, the whole world is wrong and you're right.

quote:
You don't, I do, he does, she doesn't, so what? Use financial numbers, not your personal stories about your friends and stuff.

Well you seem to be the expert on Apple figures, so I asked you personally.


By atlmann10 on 4/20/2009 3:04:30 PM , Rating: 2
You know; the funny thing about all this market talk, if it is less than ten percent effect, or positive market wise in a commodity rationing it does not exist. So the Apple faithful as a market are disregarded in general. Just as I compared buying a MAC BOOK to buying a thousand dollar purse, the market or it's section has absolutely no Impact,and therefore not much worth.


By ultimatebob on 4/17/2009 11:22:53 AM , Rating: 3
I don't think that paint.net or GIMP are easy enough for a newbie to edit and print their photos, but Picasa is. Total cost $0, and you can even use it on a Mac if you want to.

And, yeah... any non-business user who pays for anti-virus and anti-spyware software at this point isn't very bright.


By Alexstarfire on 4/17/2009 3:35:02 PM , Rating: 4
Not like Photoshop is any easier.


By Radnor on 4/17/2009 11:29:52 AM , Rating: 3
You can even lower it with Ubuntu.

Mac is modded linux Distro also.

Mac is for enthusiasts low on enthusiasm and high on cash.
Or they would be hardcore core DIY.

As for the software package, it is silly for Apple with its bowlfish of applications, match Microsoft with open-source or paid apps.

It's is just dumb. As for hardware, when Apple went x86 it became a normal PC by the inside. So this IS A NON-ARGUMENT.

I think this is idiotic. As Malware doesn't plow trough safari aswell....yeah right.


By Thorburn on 4/17/2009 12:07:38 PM , Rating: 4
UNIX != Linux

Mac OS X isn't Linux derived, its more closely related to FreeBSD and NetBSD and is a decendant of NeXT's Nextstep/OPENSTEP OS.


By Cheesew1z69 on 4/17/2009 4:23:31 PM , Rating: 2
- The Mac OS Classic family, which was based on Apple's own code - The Mac OS X operating system, derived from UNIX.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS


By Cheesew1z69 on 4/17/2009 4:27:04 PM , Rating: 2
And to follow up with that...

quote:
In 1988, Apple released its first UNIX-based OS, A/UX, which was a UNIX operating system with the Mac OS look and feel. It was not very competitive for its time, due in part to the crowded Unix market. A/UX had most of its success in sales to the U.S. government, where UNIX was a requirement that Mac OS could not meet. Mac OS X later incorporporated code from the UNIX-based NeXTStep after Steve Jobs rejoined Apple in 1996.


By takercena on 4/17/2009 11:41:24 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
...He says that Lauren's machine comes with Muvee Reveal ($80) and CyberLink DVD suite ($104)


Nothing can beat MPC-HC included inside K-lite Codec!!!!! + CoreAVC


By DEVGRU on 4/17/2009 11:49:38 AM , Rating: 5
LOL.

I haven't used any form of AV software in over a decade, and all of my PC's remain virus, ad, and spyware-free despite my PC's being connected 24/7 and used for everything from general surfing, pr0n, and most of all, on-line gaming.

Common sense + clue FTW.


By JasonMick (blog) on 4/17/2009 11:59:53 AM , Rating: 3
I have a feeling you are either practicing very careful browsing via script blocking/cookie blocking/removal and a various cautious email filtering policy, or you're in for an unpleasant surprise.

Kudos to you if its the former. ;)


By icrf on 4/17/2009 2:09:22 PM , Rating: 4
I'm in the exact same boat, too. It's really quite simple. Keep patched. Don't run programs from websites you don't trust. Don't open attachments from people you don't trust. The last virus I got was from a friend's floppy disk back in high school over a decade ago.

It's really not all that hard to do if you know what you're doing. The general populous doesn't fall into that category, but most of the readers of this site are certainly capable.


By borismkv on 4/18/2009 11:03:31 PM , Rating: 2
It is *insanely* easy to stay virus free on a PC. You just have to pay attention. I've been virus free (aside from purposeful virus downloads for testing, which you can get any time you want), for about 8 years. About once every 6 months I'll load up AVG and run a full scan. Never finds a thing. Granted, I usually format at that point as well, just because :D


By knowyourenemy on 4/19/2009 2:26:56 PM , Rating: 2
Sounds like my paranoid butt. A lot of my personal practices compound both the methods you describe and a personal tendency to never go to a site I don't trust.

Works fine so far, and I have experienced little to no problems with malware.

Just to reaffirm my statement, however, I must highlight the word -paranoid-. This is what I am. :)


By clovell on 4/17/2009 12:10:58 PM , Rating: 2
Seriously - and Consumer Reports doesn't factor cost into ratings - not beyond classifications, which is 17-18" screen here. They frequently slap a 'CR-Best Buy' on lower ranking items all the time. I've let my membership lapse in the last few years, but I seriously doubt a MacBook gets one of those.


By FingerMeElmo87 on 4/17/2009 12:44:49 PM , Rating: 5
Didn't Safari get hacked in 10 seconds last month? hmm, that should help the mac community sleep better at night


By omnicronx on 4/17/2009 1:49:37 PM , Rating: 2
Hes talking about usage on a Mac, there is no OSX version of Chrome.


By Cheesew1z69 on 4/17/2009 4:17:49 PM , Rating: 2
Found this, it's not official, but meh, for the Mac users.

http://www.labnol.org/software/download-google-chr...


By SavagePotato on 4/19/2009 1:42:14 PM , Rating: 2
Mac users do, The pwn2own competition which was referred to here was very enlightening.

More enlightening was the interview with the hacker that actually performed the hack afterward. He basically outlined how the mac has no security whatsoever and is a complete and utter joke. He took full control of the system in seconds.

He goes on to say that the hardest combination to hack would be google chrome on Windows, he also adds that Firefox on the Mac is FAR less secure than Firefox on Windows because of the inherent lack of security in OSX.

Yes the extra security of the Mac is a complete fallacy, it is in fact way way less secure and only making it through security through obscurity. There is a very harsh awakening coming if the malware authors decide to start targeting the Mac as heavily as they do Windows.

Not ONLY because the Mac is a horrendously insecure platform, but because of the user base being trained to think they can click on, or open anything they want because they have the miracle computer that stops malware.

A user base with a god complex and extremely poor usage habits + a hideously insecure falsely advertised platform is going to explode into pure hilarity one day.


By Reclaimer77 on 4/17/2009 4:33:45 PM , Rating: 2
Who's "dream machine" is a 17" notebook in the first place ? A Mac user yuppie, that's who.

Give me 2 grand and I'll show you a REAL dream machine. I'll build a PC that will own his face.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 6:20:02 PM , Rating: 1
Well see, the problem with your comment (as with most of your opinionated comments) is that there are people that have a need for a gaming platform or a workstation that some laptops cannot do. I don't get your '3rd world' reference, more talking out of your ass per usual pirks style :)

Granted, there are laptops that CAN do these things, but they cost around $8000 and with such poor battery life, they wouldn't be very practical.

Mobile platforms have their advantages, but will not replace the workstation/gaming rig. So all this guy is saying, is that for the amount of money you drop on a MBP laptop, you could very well go and build a more powerful desktop with alot more options.

Also, don't defend Apple so vigorously, it makes you look like a Kool-Aid drinking Jobs zombie :)


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 6:43:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's a niche market.


And so is Apple, so I guess we don't need them as well.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 7:06:27 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, that's right, expensive gaming PCs seem to be no better than Macs marketshare wise. Sounds very plausible. No reserach has been done on that though, so take it as my feeling, nothing more.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 7:21:20 PM , Rating: 2
http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases/details/gaming...

quote:
TIBURON, CA-November 18, 2008-Jon Peddie Research (JPR), the industry's research and consulting firm for graphics and multimedia, today announced estimated worldwide PC gaming hardware shipments and regional; market share out to 2012 – the growth is an amazing:

* The Enthusiast segment has a worldwide CAGR of 9%

* The Performance segment will have a CAGR of 19%

* The mainstream segment’s CAGR is 21%


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 11:46:47 PM , Rating: 2
"The total, hardware only, market value in 2008 was just over $20 billion, and that will grow to over $34 billion by 2012" - 20 billion compared to Apple's 34 billion for 2008?

Jeez, gaming PC's are actually smaller niche than I thought. Thanks for opening my eyes Whaaa :)


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 11:55:25 PM , Rating: 2
I am glad you managed to ignore market share.

But then again, that is your main strategy is to cherry-pick small arguments and turn them into big ones and repeating them over and over until people just don't give a sh!t.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 12:59:55 AM , Rating: 2
I'm glad you managed to ignore the fact that Apple alone makes way more money than all your "enthusiast" PC sellers altogether :P


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 2:25:04 AM , Rating: 2
What does that have to do with anything?

We were talking about percentages of people playing games on a PC.

quote:
"enthusiast" PC sellers


That doesn't take into account the DIY customer base either. I work for Newegg and I know just how much people spend on PC gaming and related hardware. If you want to talk total money for total amounts of hardware...Apple definitely doesn't win on that account.

Seriously, why does every conversation involve you having to be right about your own opinions. I can definitely tell you are a youngster.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 2:31:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
We were talking about percentages of people playing games on a PC
You don't know what the percentage of the console gamers is, do you?
quote:
I work for Newegg and I know just how much people spend on PC gaming and related hardware. If you want to talk total money for total amounts of hardware Apple definitely doesn't win on that account.
Are you seriously comparing meager 2 billions made by Newegg by 32 billions made by Apple? You must be kidding, right?


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 2:36:58 PM , Rating: 2
Newegg isn't the only hardware vendor in the world.

We were talking about PC gaming, not consoles.

I posted facts, you didn't. I backed up my points, you didn't.

Silly forum monkey... always jumping through hoops for me :)


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 3:49:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I posted facts
I posted facts about Apple beating enthusiast PC stuff sellers revenue wise, you failed to disprove that. We were talking about declining PC gaming vs increasing console gaming, so less and less people waste money on gaming PCs these days. So go singjump some more for me, clown :))


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 9:59:08 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure how you can even compare the two markets. You'd have to look at the enthusiast PC sales for every OEM, every vendor that sells enthusiast parts, and so on. Then there's the problem of getting that data of the enthusiast parts that are sold.

Might as well throw in companies like Swiftech, DangerDen, VapoChill, and so forth as they provide watercooling/extreme cooling for enthusiasts.

You provided a skewed posting, much like how Apple does.


By Alexstarfire on 4/18/2009 3:28:18 AM , Rating: 2
Which only really further proves what every smart person already knows.... that Apple overcharges for it's products. How else do you explain a smaller market share making more money than a larger market share?


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 2:35:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Apple overcharges for it's products. How else do you explain a smaller market share making more money than a larger market share?
Does Lexus brand overcharge too? 'Cause they also have small market share but make more profit than cheapo Chevy-like brands.


By Alexstarfire on 4/18/2009 7:18:17 PM , Rating: 2
Any facts to back that up, or are you just making up crap again?


By Alexstarfire on 4/18/2009 7:20:00 PM , Rating: 2
And BTW, yes they do overcharge.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 10:53:48 PM , Rating: 2
Well, so you don't like the concept of premium goods in general. I wonder why.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 11:33:50 PM , Rating: 2
No, it's just the law of economics. Premium goods always occupy smaller market segment but are more profitable compared to mainstream/budget segments.


By Alexstarfire on 4/19/2009 2:19:48 AM , Rating: 2
While that is true it does not make them better than regular/mainstream products. If you've ever noticed, premium goods mostly just look better. Shoes, rims, clothes, furniture, and 98% of all products out there. It does not apply to everything though.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 11:25:22 AM , Rating: 2
You know that things like Macs and Lexuses don't just "look better", don't you?


By Alexstarfire on 4/19/2009 3:31:09 PM , Rating: 2
Any proof? Or more unsubstantiated crap from your mouth? BTW, perceived betterness, yes I know that's not a word, doesn't make it better.

And as I said before, some things can't really be compared like that. Cars for one. More expensive ones usually are better, but not always. As such, it's not something it should be compared to.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 4:42:44 PM , Rating: 2
Any proof? Like the size/weight/thickness/touchpad/battery life/screen/cooling/etc of the MacBooks don't give you any proof? Well, if you know nothing about technical advantages of MacBooks it doesn't mean these advantages are not there.


By themaster08 on 4/19/2009 5:01:28 PM , Rating: 2
I, for once, agree with you.

The MacBook does have it's Pirks (excuse the pun), but for most people, what it comes down to is getting the job done.

The things you mentioned are nice nice to have better quality, but are not necessities per se, they are more luxuries, and most people aren't willing to go out on a limb to pay for luxuries they cannot afford, or justify paying so much more for when they could purchase another notebook for half the price which will still do as the end user pleases, albeit not as luxurious.

All it's ever mounted down to is taste.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 9:53:36 AM , Rating: 2
Probably because building a gaming machine cost half the price of a Mac. $2500+ is the much higher tier gamers, which are like Mac zealots. They buy the best just to buy the best, even though a 50% markup only provides like a 10% performance increase (made up numbers, but you get the point).


By Pirks on 4/20/2009 12:31:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
only provides like a 10% performance increase
People buy Macs not only for performance. There are other reasons besides performance. I wrote about them here many many times. Battery life, cooling, size, weight and so on and so forth. Not that you zealots will ever understand all these simple things. You have to stop being "performance is the only thing that matters" zealots first, but this is impossible for you guys.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 2:21:57 PM , Rating: 2
I was talking about gamers buying the best of the best hardware for a 50% markup for only a 10% increase in performance.

As for buying a Mac, you can't be part of the Church of Apple, without buying a Mac every 2-3 years or at least when a new upgraded model that provides a minor increase in performance comes out.

Mac users buy the laptops for the cool looking factor more than anything else. Hell, go up to a majority of them an ask about the battery life and cooling. You'll find that they have no idea on it's battery life and it'll spend most of it's time plugged in, which puts it's weight as a non-factor.

Cooling. You're the only moron posting about that and it's a moot point anyways and you aren't tell me anything. No vents on the bottom (only on some Macbooks) doesn't make your cooling better. It just means the vents are not on the bottom. If the Mac has lower temps, then you can say it's better. As of right now, vent locations doesn't mean much. Considering other laptops also have zero vents on the bottom or simply have zero vents at all.


By Pirks on 4/21/2009 1:19:26 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
No vents on the bottom doesn't make your cooling better. It just means the vents are not on the bottom
When you put your cheapo WinPC notebook on a soft surface and it blocks the incoming airflow through the stupid bottom holes - you'll sing totally different song.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 6:45:54 PM , Rating: 2
You're such a flip-flopper Pirks. That is why nobody takes you seriously here. I like chatting it up with you because it's entertaining.

First, you are defending Apple products because you are paying for 'better quality' or 'better performance', etc. Then you are bashing me for saying "People have a need for a gaming platform" by arguing against the cost of a higher end gaming platform. I don't get it...

And please, enough of your retarded Cars are Computers rhetoric, it's lame.

PC Gaming isn't a 'niche' market. Niche market would be Apple notebooks according to marketshare numbers.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 7:11:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
PC Gaming isn't a 'niche' market
PC Gaming != expensive gaming PCs. The gaming is not a niche, the expensive $2000+ gaming towers are.
quote:
I don't get it
I'm just saying that bashing niche markets and their buyers is stupid. Minority buys their stuff 'cause they like it. We are no judges here.

I don't bash expensive gaming PCs, I just say that only a few people need them. Same is true for Macs of course.


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 7:21:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm just saying that bashing niche markets and their buyers is stupid


Oh really? Is that why a few posts back you said this:

quote:
who needs expensive gaming PCs these days? It's a niche market.


Regardless to whether gaming PC's are a niche, I still know more people who own them than people I know who own Macs.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 11:53:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I still know more people who own them than people I know who own Macs
It's because you're a gamer too. Similar minded people stick together, you know.


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 6:32:46 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's because you're a gamer too.


Is that so? Well....that's news to me!

quote:
Similar minded people stick together, you know.


So I guess in that case that must mean you have 0 friends.

Regardless to your ridiculous comment, I still know of no one who has a Mac, let alone befriend them, but after speaking to you, I think i'd rather stick to my so-called similar minded friends as you say, as you are the absolute epitomy of a Mac user.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 2:49:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I still know of no one who has a Mac
You must be a loner :)) Or you live on farm in a rural area or something... I heard rural areas have very low Mac user population indeed.


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 5:33:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You must be a loner :))


Rich coming from the only person in Apples defence.


By BailoutBenny on 4/18/2009 1:29:16 PM , Rating: 2
Pirks,
So here $2000+ for a desktop pc, which can handily whoop any Mac's ass in performance, is expensive but a MBP for almost $3k is what? Cheap? Especially when you can get a notebook for $1k or less that is comporable to the highest priced MBP in performance (using XP or a Linux distro, $1500 for a notebook running Vista)? You are a souless hypocrit and what is worse you debate like a politician. People like you are the reason I do NOT buy Apple products, besides the fact that they charge more for less.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 3:00:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
$2000+ for a desktop pc, which can handily whoop any Mac's ass in performance, is expensive but a MBP for almost $3k is what? Cheap?
No, it's not cheap at all. It's expensive, very expensive.
quote:
notebook for $1k or less that is comporable to the highest priced MBP in performance
Performance is not the only metric people use when choosing a notebook.


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 3:28:42 PM , Rating: 2
Why do you keep vehemently defending a product you do not have yourself, nor can afford?

Don't give me the "I have the best job lol" routine. It's already been proven you are a child and still living with your parents. It must be pretty lonely being a loner. I bet all the other kids in your neighborhood won't play with you.

Poor guy.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 3:56:05 PM , Rating: 2
Louder, louder, whaa, and don't forget to jump higher too ;) I like the funny way you jump around :)))


By SavagePotato on 4/19/2009 2:02:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
TextPerformance is not the only metric people use when choosing a notebook.


Style is not a metric that the vast majority of the computer using populace use when choosing a notebook. Price is and has always been the bottom line for the majority. What was that? netbook revolution? people buying slow as mud netbooks for 300 dollars in droves? yeah.

Some day maybe (but probably not) it will sink into your head that a computer is a tool not something that defines who you are. It does a job, that is it's purpose. Many people feel the same way about your favorite comparison cars as well. In fact the majority do.

People that let their possessions determine their identity are known as tools as well, to the people that let their actions determine their identity. Tools like you Pirks.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 3:08:35 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Price is and has always been the bottom line for the majority
Yeah, people buy not the best goods but the goods they can afford. Who would have thought! Thanks for enlightening me, Captain Obvious :)
quote:
People that let their possessions determine their identity are known as tools as well, to the people that let their actions determine their identity. Tools like you Pirks.
Shit, now you attacked your older brother Whaaaclown, 'cause he possesses a Mac, not me :)) Poor idiot Whaaa, get hammered like that by his sibling, must be hurting, huh? I guess this is why that fucking Whaaaclown has shut up recentlty, heheee :))


By Whaaambulance on 4/19/2009 3:14:23 PM , Rating: 2
Such a cute little forum monkey resorting to his silly pre-school antics to get attention. How does my Banana taste, my little forum monkey?

I will remind you of when I laid down my banana and you came to taste it....

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=14889...

Awww how cute... I love my little forum monkey. Hes such an entertaining little guy.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 4:48:16 PM , Rating: 2
What a nice jump Whaaa :) Good job clown, now work some more.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 10:24:17 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Performance is not the only metric people use when choosing a notebook.


You're right. The main metric is price. Hence Apple's small marketshare.


By Pirks on 4/20/2009 2:00:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The main metric is price
No, the main metric is comfort. If you were not a "cheapo performance is everything" zealot you'd see that performance is not the same as comfort.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 2:27:08 PM , Rating: 2
Guess that means Mac have the worst comfort levels, since no one buys them.

Also wtf kind of metric is that?

price
usability
performance
portability
battery life

comfort? I'm not buying a car. Laptop keyboards/touchpads aren't comfortable and they're all the same. Flat. The only difference between them is layout. Comfort, that'd be the dumbest metric for a computer.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 10:21:57 AM , Rating: 2
PC Gaming = a PC capable of gaming. It doesn't have to be expensive. You can easily build a $1000 computer that is capable of playing every PC game out there. There's a reason PC games are to run on low end to high end hardware. That's cause a gaming PC can be low end and move up to high end.

Niche markets are niche markets, cause majority of us either can't afford them or know they're stupid. I can afford a dual quad core machine with dual graphics cards, but I know it won't increase experience in a game.

Bashing isn't meaningless. It's a learning tool. Eventually the tool, will learn from the bashing and no longer be a tool.


By SavagePotato on 4/19/2009 1:53:11 PM , Rating: 2
This here outlines just how dumb you are pirks.

Did you ever stop a second to consider people need 18 wheelers you f-ing putz? Excuse me while I go try to hook up a set of b-trains to your ferarri and see how well that gets the job done. Ohhhhh you mean that there are different computers for different jobs? can you f-ing believe it pirks? Incredible.

You defeated your own argument with your own stupidity.

A computer with mobility is not what everyone needs, shocker. Furthermore if he did, he could build a 2000 dollar desktop rig that smashes any apple product including the mac pro, AND buy a windows notebook having both mobility and a killer desktop at home for less than one mac product combined.

So I guess he got the 18 wheeler and a chevy corvette that still outperforms your ferarri for less, since all you seem to be able to understand is cars in your messed up fetal alcohol syndrome brain.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 3:13:29 PM , Rating: 2
This shows how little brain you have potato. So this guy can buy two P.O.S. cars instead of one exotic luxury car. Great, good for him. Now what? :))


By SavagePotato on 4/19/2009 11:07:57 PM , Rating: 2
Oh my god you are f-ing dumb. There aren't even words to describe what an unbelievable cretin you are. Every time you open your mouth I consider joining a religion, so I could pray for you to never ever ever reproduce under any circumstance.

Listen you insufferable and useless waste of space...

A highway tractor and a f-ing Ferrari do not do the same thing. A corvette however does do the same thing if not better and for a third the price, also most of those trucks cost 150k dollars plus and have a build quality your pea sized brain can't even comprehend. You blew by the analogy by so far that you are in Pakistan having a conversation with a goat or something(right on your level).

Using analogies on you is like playing chess with someone with down syndrome...

Please for the love of god (if there were a god) STOP inflicting your unbelievable stupidity on everyone on this site.

Please, every time you open your mouth you say something stupider than the last time, you are an embarrassment to the human race and an affront to concept of natural selection. End your life while there is still time to save future generations from yourself and any possible offspring that are as large a cretin as yourself.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 11:59:11 PM , Rating: 1
Go fuck yourself stupid potato idiot and stop polluting this forum with your meaningless Pakistani goat garbage.


By Whaaambulance on 4/20/2009 2:12:02 PM , Rating: 2
Poor little monkey is so angry. He is so frustrated he is using curse words.

You better give him a banana before he really goes crazy.


By cpeter38 on 4/17/2009 5:01:14 PM , Rating: 3
1 year ago I picked up a Sony Dual Core machine. 2 hour of work (downloads and deleting Sony Crudware) + 2 GB of memory later, I have a great machine that cost me <$300 TOTAL. Granted, it only has a 15 in. screen, but it is equal in speed to the Macbook Pro and I have all the goodies on it (Open Office, Gimp, etc.).

HMMMMM:

$300 or $3000 .....

Such a hard decision!!


By leexgx on 4/19/2009 7:47:20 AM , Rating: 2
at its only £20 most of my customers i service i am trying to get them all back onto norton antivirus or NIS 2009 £20/£25), the new norton protects far better then avg and updates very offen and only does tasks that slow the pc down when the pc is idle for 10 mins (default) and stops tasks if you come back, as well it also uses small amount of ram as well as there older ones was starting to use aloit of mem (Norton 360 is still useing Bloted code from 2008 ver so that one is slow)

the older avg 7.5 was good the new 8-8.5 tend to slow the pc down

i do it more now as it fits in wiht my year service i do with alot of my customers


By Whaaambulance on 4/20/2009 2:15:17 PM , Rating: 2
ATTENTION: I have figured out why Pirks exists on these forums!

I have it all figured out. You see, Dailytech gets paid for traffic, page views and click-throughs. So it only makes sense for them to post these silly Mac vs PC threads. They get the most hits! So why wouldn't they hire some completely retarded forum monkey to argue every single users post? Pirks is here to bring in traffic for DT! Maybe? Hmmmm...


By iFX on 4/17/2009 12:21:00 PM , Rating: 3
Coincidently I decided this week to build myself a new desktop. Here is a rundown of the build using parts from Newegg.

Hardware:
Antec Three Hundred: $59.95
SeaSonic SS-500ES: $64.99
EVGA 113-M2 AM2+: $79.99
G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB): $37.99
AMD Phenom II 940 3.0 GHZ: $214.99
WD Caviar SE 80GB: $33.99
WD Caviar GP 500GB: $59.99
LG 20X DVD+R x 2: $43.98
ALTEC LANSING VS2420 2.0: $27.99
MS USB Wireless Optical Desktop: $25.99
Hans-G 22" 5ms LCD: $149.99

Software:
MS Vista Home Basic (64-bit): $89.99
OpenOffice 3.0: Free
PDFCreator 0.9.8: Free
Foxit PDF Reader: Free
Irfanview 4.23: Free
Winamp 5.5: Free
AVG Anti-Virus: Free
Mozilla Thunderbird email client: Free
CCCP: Free

And lastly:

Product updates from Microsoft: Free

So that's around $890 + $30 or so for shipping. Uhhhh and why would I want an Apple again?




By PrazVT on 4/17/2009 12:58:51 PM , Rating: 3
I think software can be debated forever b/t MS and Apple. If there are a finite number of basic / mainstream tasks that you need to do, then a Mac is fine. I had OS X installed on a few of my machines for a while, but ultimately when I needed to do video / audio encoding or play games (which is less important in this discussion), I ended up rebooting into Windows. We have a pilot program here at Cisco where employees can get mac book pros when it's time for their computer refreshes. My co-worker decided to go w/ the mac, but thus far he's been running windows via vmware fusion, just because things don't work exactly the same. But for the work he needs to do (MS Office-related stuff mostly), he'll get used to it.

The thing that irks me most about Mac books is that you're getting lower spec hardware and paying more for it. PERIOD.
My new thinkpad W500 (C2D 2.53ghz, 4gb, 160gb hdd, webcam, wireless n, FireGL V5700(hd3650)/IntelGM4500 graphics, dvd-rw, 1680x1050 screen, 9 cell battery, was about $300 cheaper than said coworker's mac (4gb, 2.4ghz C2D, dvd-rw, nvidia 9400/9600, 250gb, wireless n).

I get the same or better battery life, + a dock for less $$.

So as long as Apple admits it's putting inferior hardware in their machines and they're jacking up the prices b/c of "advanced" software, then OK. Fair enough.

Because that is the only remotely plausible reason for the high prices.


By iFX on 4/17/2009 2:21:58 PM , Rating: 2
Put the crack pipe down.

I used to get ten hours of battery life with my old HP NC6000 with the travel battery (replaced DVD drive).


By TomZ on 4/17/2009 4:08:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Put the crack pipe down.
I think the OP is right, that the OS has a significant role in battery life. For example, there were a lot of user complaints that their battery life decreased when going from XP to Vista. And I can also tell you from personal experience that my battery life increased when I went from Vista to Windows 7.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 4:16:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Put the crack pipe down
How about asking Anandtech to put their crack pipe down too?

Eat this: http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.aspx?i=354...

MacBooks piss and poopoo on your Windows cheaposh1t hardware when we start comparing battery life on the batteries with the same capacity.

Pay attention to graphs in this article, like this one: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/dellstudioxps16...


By iFX on 4/17/2009 4:36:28 PM , Rating: 2
It sure sounds like they need to.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 5:18:48 PM , Rating: 1
No, it's YOU who needs to put the pipe down and stop comparing your notebook with TWO batteries with other notebooks that have ONE battery.


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 5:41:26 PM , Rating: 2
From almost EVERY reply you've posted on this article thus far, I think by now all of us get the picture that battery life is better on the Macbooks.

Got anything else to add for a change?.....


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 5:56:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Got anything else to add for a change?
Of course I do :) MacBook cooling system is better too :P No stupid incoming airflow holes at the bottom of the notebook.


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 6:05:38 PM , Rating: 2
And where are your precious graphs to prove this?...


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 6:23:42 PM , Rating: 2
You mean photos of macbooks without ventilation holes at the bottom? Like this one? -> http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/38170.jpg


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 6:32:57 PM , Rating: 2
Well that's not particularly what I had in mind, but kudos for your relentless unwarrented and unwavering support for Apple products.

But, just between me and you, I don't think it's doing you much justice. You're.....how does the expression go.....fighting a losing battle. You should quit while you're ahead (namely after talking about battery life), and find yourself another hobby.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 7:26:39 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Well that's not particularly what I had in mind
I'm deeply sorry then. May I ask what did you have in mind?
quote:
kudos for your relentless unwarrented and unwavering support for Apple products
Kudos for your relentless unwarranted and unwavering lies about Apple products.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 7:28:40 PM , Rating: 2
I don't see where he was lying about an Apple product.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 11:59:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't see where he was lying about an Apple product
I don't see where I was relentlessly unwarrantedly and unwaveringly defending an Apple product either.


By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 12:02:31 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't see where I was relentlessly unwarrantedly and unwaveringly defending an Apple product either


Do I really need to copy & paste about 90% of your posts in this forum?


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 1:08:45 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Do I really need to copy & paste about 90% of your posts in this forum?
You mean those where I fix some dumb lies that a few idiots try to spread? Sure, go ahead :)


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 7:31:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Kudos for your relentless unwarranted and unwavering lies about Apple products.


I'm sorry, you seem to have misinformed me.

Please step me into the direction as to where I have even formed an opinion about Apple products, let alone lied about them?


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 12:05:07 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
where I have even formed an opinion about Apple products, let alone lied about them?
Where have I relentlessly unwarrantedly and unwaveringly defended an Apple product?


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 6:48:47 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Where have I relentlessly unwarrantedly and unwaveringly defended an Apple product?


Umm...Perhaps by posting the same thing about 50 times to get your meaningless point across.

Well, let's just say hypothetically you're right, and I have lied.
Well, that wouldn't be a lie about Apple products, would it? It would in fact be a lie about you. Besides, what I said was opinion, albeit the opinion of most people who post on this site, so how can my subjective evaluation be a lie? That's just like me saying you love Apple is a lie.

You really should the iDefend off for a change. It's evidently causing you so much undue stress.


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 7:09:38 AM , Rating: 2
You really should turn the iDefend off for a change is what I meant to say.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 3:07:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
.Perhaps by posting the same thing about 50 times
Ask liars like Chicko why they post their lies 50 times so I have to debunk them all the time.


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 5:19:02 PM , Rating: 2
You see, even when the cold facts are laid right in front of you, you still find some FUD to counteract with, because you cannot admit to defeat. You're always right. You're the laughing stock of this site, you know?

It's there, $129, on your beloved Apple site. Oh, so it's cheaper elsewhere, so what? It's still $129 on the Apple site and as much as you try to avoid it the fact remains.

You've debunked nothing, all you have done is cherry picked a few prices which you have found cheaper. This doesn't prove Chicko is a liar, it only proves your relentlessness and unwillingness to admit defeat.

Here it is, 50 times, so you get the point, after all, thats how much it takes for you to get your point across...

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC094Z/A?mco=MzE...

Truth hurts, doesn't it?


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 6:12:43 PM , Rating: 2
I forgot to add...

Furthermore, how is it you can find a shop that sells an Apple product, that Apple sell themselves for $40 more?
Apple has ridiculously overpriced it's own product. There's no justification.

Lastly I would have thought such a quality product would get a 5 star rating, but it only gets a 4 on the Apple site.

I know you'll find some FUD to counteract this, even though it's there, right in front of you.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 10:31:19 AM , Rating: 2
PCs come in different builds. You can get a notebook with no vents on the bottom, no vents on the back, or just no vents at all.

Does that mean a Panasonic Toughbook is infinitely better than a Macbook, as it has zero vents?

How about the fact that the Macbook runs so freaking hot, that having it sitting on your laptop is a poor decision.


By Pirks on 4/20/2009 2:17:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You can get a notebook with no vents on the bottom, no vents on the back, or just no vents at all.
Can you get inexpensive Dell or HP notebook, say between 15 and 17 inch, without bottom holes? Go figure. Your beautiful theory has not much common with reality. I'm not interested in niche Sony machines like Vaio P that are as slow as a piece of sticky goo running down the wall.


By Whaaambulance on 4/20/2009 2:21:22 PM , Rating: 2
Pirks are you still here defending products you don't own and cannot afford?

Silly monkey.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 2:48:13 PM , Rating: 2
My $600 laptop has no bottom vents, only side vents. It's an Everex. In one side out the other. I never said all laptops didn't have vents on the bottom, but some don't. Usually the cheaper laptops don't.

Besides Macbooks have vents on the bottom anyways. Depends on your model. Not that it matters, as the intake is usually located at the hinge and partially blocked by it.

Not that vent locations matter to much. It doesn't make cooling any better or worse, unless you constantly place your laptop on shag carpeting or a thick blanet. At which point, usually all your vents are covered.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 6:21:45 PM , Rating: 2
Are you really drumming this nonsense up again, Pirks?

LOL


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 6:37:30 PM , Rating: 2
It's astounding, isn't it? Although I find he holds similar characteristics to the company he so dearly supports......

The main one being he always thinks he's right.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 8:06:09 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Are you really drumming this nonsense up again, Pirks?
Are you really afraid of the truth again, Whaaa?


By themaster08 on 4/17/2009 8:11:34 PM , Rating: 2
And the truth being....


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 12:28:38 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
And the truth being...
...being MacBook cooling beating the drap out of WinPC notebook cooling due to the absence of bottom incoming airflow holes on MacBooks.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 10:52:19 AM , Rating: 2
Huh? How exactly does that beat anything? Do the Macbooks run cooler than a comparable WinPC? Locations of vents doesn't mean cooling is better. It simply just means the location of them is different. My laptop only has vents on the sides. Does that mean it's better?

Hell, there's plenty of articles, forum posts, etc about overheating Macbooks.


By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 9:24:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Are you really afraid of the truth again?


If by truth you mean your biased opinions, then I guess so yeah... I guess all of us on this forum are afraid...


By spookynutz on 4/17/2009 7:02:51 PM , Rating: 2
Given the article is focusing on the cost of entry, if his notebook plus auxillary battery is still cheaper than the Mac laptop (and it probably is), the comparison is a valid one.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 12:24:55 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
the comparison is a valid one
Unfortunately this doesn't make battery efficiency graphs on anandtech.com look any different :P


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 7:03:58 AM , Rating: 2
Unfortunately you've been unable to pull your head out of your ass and realise that no one gives a sh!t!


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 3:11:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
no one gives a sh!t
Noone gives a sh!t about how good and ergonomic the notebook's cooling system is? Yeah, you'd think up ANY lie to cover up your @ss, anything will do. People don't look at cooling, at screens, at trackpads, at size and weight, they look only at price and CPU speed. Keep lying, whatever...


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 3:45:38 PM , Rating: 2
Oops, forgot to add battery life to cooling system, which is the primary factor here (I mean, battery life) :) Ah, whatever, you got my point anyway.


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 5:25:18 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, I get your point. The thing is though, I haven't once doubted that you're right about the battery life, as well as the cooling being better, so i'm not covering anyones @ss. This is you twisting things yet again.

My point was that nobody gives a sh!t when you tell us for the 50th time.


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 6:49:35 PM , Rating: 2
Does anyone give a sh!t when Chicko lies for the 50th time?


By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 6:53:09 PM , Rating: 2
You do, quite clearly.

Except he didn't lie...


By Pirks on 4/18/2009 11:41:54 PM , Rating: 2
He lied because he compared OS X MSRP price with an e-tailer discounted price for a stripped down version of Vista. These are very different prices and can't be compared. If he had compared OS X MSRP price with MSRP price of full version of Vista ($399) then I wouldn't have complained.


By themaster08 on 4/19/2009 8:15:23 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
a stripped down version of Vista

No, you see, that's where people get the choice to buy whatever suits them, unlike OSX which includes an abundance of applications that many people will not find a single use for, but you have no choice, you have to have these apps.
I suppose it some respects you could say it's "stripped down" but I prefer to use the phrase "modified for choice"
Besides, no matter how you look at it, it's still Vista, so I'd render that point moot.

With that said, I agree that sale prices and MSRP shouldn't have been compared, but your argument for the past 2 days was on the basis of that he lied about OSX price solely.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 11:32:51 AM , Rating: 2
If it gives you any relief... he lies constantly here, not about the price etc, he lies about everything. You don't know this guy, hence you think I'm wrong. Wahtever. When you watch this forum long enough you quickly learn who the most nasty trolls are and you start ignoring or ridiculing them. Just like I do ;-)


By themaster08 on 4/19/2009 5:08:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
When you watch this forum long enough you quickly learn who the most nasty trolls are and you start ignoring or ridiculing them. Just like I do ;-)


I just figured you ridiculed everyone.....


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 8:15:37 PM , Rating: 2
Nah, just three primary clowns here - potato, whaaa and chicko. Reclaimer tried to lie a little bit about Mac Pro's price but went silent after I fixed his lies quickly, so he doesn't count. See, just a few particularly moronic posters I took care of. Maybe 1 or 2 percent of the posters here. Not EVERYONE as you claim :P


By Alexstarfire on 4/17/2009 5:29:48 PM , Rating: 2
Ok, so you have to add an extra battery to get above the Mac laptop. Yea, that's a fair comparison. I guess the gazillion battery life graphs showing the Mac laptops WAY WAY above PC ones are all lies right? Give me a break, I hate Macs and even I know they have far superior battery life. These are facts plain and simple, not opinions.

And 10 hours of idle time doesn't really count.


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 10:55:22 AM , Rating: 2
The problem is that the graph only focuses on Windows and not a PC in general. Where's the Linux? Where's the Windows on the Mac?


By AmunRa on 4/17/2009 6:21:15 PM , Rating: 2
Ok, so I've got a W500 at work and a 15" MBP at home, so I thought I'd comment on this.

First up - let's configure a W500 to be as close as possible to the 15" MBP. Here's my go:
ThinkPad W500 - 1 Yr Depot Warranty $1,512.00 (note this is the sale price, original price was $1,818.00)
Apple MacBookPro 15" (base model) $1,999.00

(both prices include shipping, exclude tax).

I've got both these, and I'd happily pay the $500 more just for OS X and accompanying applications (iLife, XCode etc) - This is subjective; and so it's virtually impossible to convert anyone on this; but I find I'm significantly more productive, spend less time managing the computer instead of getting work done on OS X compared to either Windows or Linux.

In addition, the MBP has a significantly better screen on the MBP -probably about 2x brighter and a much better display angle. When I got my W500 a kept trying to turn the brightness up even when it was maxed as it was a mile away from the MPB one.

Finally there's a few other nicities you don't get with the W500 - backlit keyboard, firewire, magsafe power (which has saved me a fair few times when I've snagged the power cord), expresscard slot, multitouch trackpad (which again the apple trackpad is much nicer to use than theW500).

Personally I find while the W500 may be cheaper, the MBP is better value for money. My time isn't free, and I'd rather spend it doing useful work than fighting against my OS and computer.

Just to add - I didn't used to be a Mac user; I used Windows exclusively up until University, when I switched to Linux. However for desktop use I saw the light about 5 years ago and wouldn't go back now by choice.


By Alexstarfire on 4/17/2009 9:24:34 PM , Rating: 2
Well, that all may be, but can you at least discount the touchpad. Thanks to Apple no one can put multitouch on laptops or any mobile device.


By AmunRa on 4/19/2009 6:36:07 AM , Rating: 1
Do you realistically think that if HP/Dell et al had invented multitouch first they wouldn't have patented it themselves?


By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 10:58:46 AM , Rating: 2
They would, but they wouldn't sue everyone else so they couldn't use it. There are certain things you know others will do, you simply patent it so someone else doesn't come along and sue you for it.

Apple is the type to patent it, so they can stifle competition.


By Griffinhart on 4/17/2009 3:07:58 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Software:
MS Vista Home Basic (64-bit): $89.99
OpenOffice 3.0: Free
PDFCreator 0.9.8: Free
Foxit PDF Reader: Free
Irfanview 4.23: Free
Winamp 5.5: Free
AVG Anti-Virus: Free
Mozilla Thunderbird email client: Free
CCCP: Free

Splurge! Get Office 2007 Home/Student (OneNote, Excel, Word, Powerpoint) for $90 and install it on as many as 3 machines. OR if you have a student in the family, 2007 Ultimate for $50.
Then you can get the Free Office add-in that allows you to Save files as PDF.


By RTartaglia on 4/17/2009 3:26:03 PM , Rating: 2
I would like to add to this...
I don't do major upgrades very often, it's actually been about 4 years since my last major one, actually. Anyways, I just bought some new components for my pc, cost me around $320. I upgraded my system with a new processor, motherboard and ram. I'm upgrading from a s939 and DDR ram system to Phenom II (could have also gone Intel if I had wanted to, but this is besides the point) and DDR 2. I'm recycling my other components (ie. Case, PSU, Sound Card, NIC, Hard drives, GFX card and OS). If I had a Mac PRO with a Power PC processor and associated motherboard and ram, etc., could I have upgraded just some of the internal components when they moved to Intel PC internal components?


Build better computers?
By Cheesew1z69 on 4/17/2009 10:55:10 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Arik Hesseldahl, a writer for Forbes and Business Week, blasts the latest Microsoft commercials, writing, "Rather than running ads that seem clever at first but really aren't, the Windows guys ought to take the hint and just build better computers." An Apple spokesperson adds, "A PC is no bargain when it doesn't do what you want."
Um, what an idiot, MS doesn't BUILD computers <rolls eyes>




RE: Build better computers?
By waffle911 on 4/17/09, Rating: 0
RE: Build better computers?
By fatedtodie on 4/17/2009 1:12:25 PM , Rating: 2
Actually if you read the comment he quoted the Apple rep exactly. While he may have MEANT OEMs he SAID Microsoft.

Please read the article before dissing someone commenting on it.


RE: Build better computers?
By Digimonkey on 4/17/2009 1:41:32 PM , Rating: 2
When looking at the original article it's pretty clear he wasn't talking about Microsoft.

quote:
PC makers in the Windows camp have done everything possible to make their products progressively worse by cutting corners to save pennies per unit and boost sales volume. There's good reason Apple is seeing healthy profits while grabbing market share. It refuses to budge on quality and so charges a higher price. Rather than running ads that seem clever at first but really aren't, the Windows guys ought to take the hint and just build better computers.


RE: Build better computers?
By Cheesew1z69 on 4/17/2009 3:34:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It refuses to budge on quality and so charges a higher price.
That's where I fail to understand what is so special about Apple computers, especially after switching to Intel, is what "quality" parts? Minus the case and OS, it's the same parts as any OTHER PC out there, and OODLES cheaper.


RE: Build better computers?
By Reclaimer77 on 4/17/2009 4:38:22 PM , Rating: 2
What quality ?

Apples use last generation PC parts, crap video cards, and one button mice. Unless the only 'quality' he's talking about is the case, he's just being a fanboi spewing fud. Not even newsworthy in my opinion.


RE: Build better computers?
By Pirks on 4/17/2009 5:50:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
use last generation PC parts, crap video cards, and one button mice
Everything here is a lie. Mac Pro uses newest Nehalems, and ATI 4870 and nVidia 8800 cards you can find in Macs are no crap either, and the mouse now has multiple buttons. You just look like a Winzealot, Reclaimer, with such obvious lies.


RE: Build better computers?
By Reclaimer77 on 4/17/2009 6:07:10 PM , Rating: 2
lol Nice of you to cheery pick the ONE example that uses mid/high end parts. All for a shade under, what is it now, 5 grand ?


RE: Build better computers?
By Pirks on 4/17/2009 8:38:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
5 grand?
$2700 actually, liar :P


RE: Build better computers?
By Penti on 4/19/2009 12:07:57 AM , Rating: 2
The notebooks actually has zero buttons, but works as a two button trackpad none the less. The Mighty Mouse has had two buttons or right-click for a long time now, you don't need to buy a Mac Pro to get one...

The DELLs that are cheap usually uses several generations old hardware, Apple doesn't do that hence the higher price. If they had sold the MB from two-three generations ago I'm sure it wouldn't cost more then 600-700 bucks.

I'm sure a plastic MB with an CCFL 13.3" LCD panel with 2GB of ram and wireless N with a Pentium Dual-core and X3100/X4500 chipset, including a 50Wh battery wouldn't cost more then $700. As they use the same ODMs/manufacturers as everyone else. That is not what people would buy though. Lack of Intel VT would also hurt it.

It's not like the iMac has outdated hardware either or that they aren't comparable to others all-in-one computers just like the MB is comparable to 13" Sony Vaio's. MBP gets run over by mobile workstations and business laptops though, but only if your running Windows. Which the users shouldn't be working in if they buy a MBP. 24" IPS screen and HD4850 is not too bad for 2000. At least not for a all-in-one unit. They aren't any more costy then any other premium consumer product. They just don't want to offer any cheap desktops as they aren't competitive in that environment anyway.


RE: Build better computers?
By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 11:19:38 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The DELLs that are cheap usually uses several generations old hardware, Apple doesn't do that hence the higher price. If they had sold the MB from two-three generations ago I'm sure it wouldn't cost more then 600-700 bucks.


Huh? The Mac Mini finally got a refresh after it was sitting on the hardware it was launched with years ago.

All Macs are like that. They sit on some of the latest hardware for years, which slowly starts putting them into the outdated category. Take for example their new Mac Pros. They'll probably sit on that exact same hardware specs for 2-3 years, while still maintaining a higher price. Just like they did with the last set of hardware. Apple is the worst at staying up to date, hardware wise.

The only changes would be whenever ATI/Nvidia decide to put out a video card for Apple, which will be available in their drop down menus, but not be part of the standard config.


RE: Build better computers?
By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 6:59:32 PM , Rating: 2
nVidia 8800? Do you realize how OLD that card is? Just thought I would remind you of that.

And if you are talking about laptop video cards, there are no ATI options for the MBP and the nVidia 9400 and 9600 cards are also VERY outdated.

You look like an Apple Zealot always jumping on the first person to say something negative about an Apple product.


RE: Build better computers?
By Pirks on 4/17/2009 8:30:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
nVidia 8800? Do you realize how OLD that card is?
Reclaimer just lied that this card is crap. I fixed his lies, that's all.
quote:
9600 cards are also VERY outdated
nVidia 9600M GT is VERY outdated? What is not outdated then?

You look like a Windows zealot always jumping on the first person to say something negative about another Apple related lie posted here.


RE: Build better computers?
By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 9:21:27 PM , Rating: 2
It's ok kid, you don't need to be so mad at the world.

Everyone here knows you are wet behind the ears, so they don't take you seriously.

All you are to me is entertainment value, and very slight value at that.

But if it makes you feel better, by all means, continue.


RE: Build better computers?
By Pirks on 4/18/2009 12:20:02 AM , Rating: 2
Back to your clown routine, Whaaa? Alright, I don't mind :o) Jump around and fall flat for me if you like it so much.


RE: Build better computers?
By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 2:19:51 AM , Rating: 2
Clown routine? It's you who is entertaining this forum with your idiocies. I should give you a tip or something for all the laughs you have provided me my little forum monkey :)


RE: Build better computers?
By Pirks on 4/18/2009 3:15:54 PM , Rating: 2
Whaaa higher, whaaa louder. Work it, work it real hard, my personal clown :)


RE: Build better computers?
By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 3:22:36 PM , Rating: 2
Well see, the difference between you and I is that nobody pays attention or laughs at your jokes.

So keep dancing my little monkey... don't forget your cute little hat!


RE: Build better computers?
By Pirks on 4/18/2009 4:00:18 PM , Rating: 2
Nobody laughs at your stupid jokes 'cause they know you're MY personal clown so only I can laugh ;)


RE: Build better computers?
By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 5:28:17 PM , Rating: 2
Just as you're this sites personal clown, so only everyone can laugh ;)


RE: Build better computers?
By Pirks on 4/18/2009 7:02:39 PM , Rating: 2
You can't be as good clown as Whaaa is. Your jumps are not high enough. Fail.


RE: Build better computers?
By themaster08 on 4/18/2009 7:14:56 PM , Rating: 2
I think you need to re-read my post, as it has absolutely nothing to do with me being a clown.

I guess that's just in your nature though. You must have some sort of selective reading disability which only allows you to read what is beneficial to you.

All of this frivolous twisting of subjects only leads me to believe you have nothing more to say on the matter, at least nothing constructive anyway.


RE: Build better computers?
By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 7:47:03 PM , Rating: 2
Isn't our little forum monkey, Pirks cute? You will notice at the start of this thread how I set my banana out and low and behold here comes our little monkey to get my banana.

Pirks loves my banana.


RE: Build better computers?
By Pirks on 4/19/2009 12:23:15 AM , Rating: 1
Yeah, and Whaaa had absolutely nothing constructive to say from the very beginning so bash him too :P


RE: Build better computers?
By themaster08 on 4/19/2009 8:31:44 AM , Rating: 2
I think you need to re-read my post. I bashed you for, and a reprise, for your frivolous twisting of subjects.

I can deal with non-contructive posts, in fact, many of them are humorous, but I find twisting them somewhat distasteful :P


RE: Build better computers?
By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 11:30:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Reclaimer just lied that this card is crap. I fixed his lies, that's all.


What lies? Considering the price they charge and what is available (for PCs anyways), it is a crap card. It's just a couple generations behind.

quote:
nVidia 9600M GT is VERY outdated? What is not outdated then?


GT 130M for one. I personally wouldn't say it's very outdated, but it is outdated.


RE: Build better computers?
By AmunRa on 4/17/2009 6:47:22 PM , Rating: 2
Have you actually sat down and specced an Apple product with the *equivalent* HP / Lenovo etc components? And by that I don't mean (for example) just the same screen size; but the same type of display etc?

For example I recently got a Lenovo W500 given to me at work. While the 'on paper specs' are the same (or better) as my personal 15" MBP, the Apple components / OS intregration are significantly better - for example:

Display: While higher resolution (1400x900 v.s. 1680x1050) the W500 display is much lower brightness and lower contrast (we're talking about half as bright as the MBP); and the viewing angle is much worse. I'd rather use the MBP display any day.

Suspend/Resume: My MBP hibernates in <10s; and awakes in about 1. The W500 fails to go to sleep about 15% of the time (and I have to power-cycle it), and when it does it takes much longer.

Keyboard: I find the MBP keyboard much more solid and enjoyable to type with; plus the backlight works very well (e.g. great typing on a plane). The travel on the W500 k/b isn't as nice to type on, and the pitiful 'light' which shines down onto the keyboard is a waste of space.

Trackpad: The two-finger scrolling/ panning etc on the MBP trackpad is great. The version on the W500 (where you have to swipe 1 finger along a narrow strip on the right or top side is unreliable and prone to jumping).

General build quality: The MBP case feels solid - you can pick it up in one hand at the corner and nothing flexes; the same cannot be said for the W500 where it makes horrible creaking noises if you try the same thing. I've been lucky not to drop my MBP, but I've seen a couple of co-workers laptops after some serious drops (e.g. dropped from waist height onto a concrete kerb; gone through customs and come out visibly bent to a curve) and they still work perfectly well - a solid metal casing serves well to absorb the impact. I've seen older IBM laptops where the plastic has just shattered in a similar situation.

I don't have one so I can't comment from experience, but the MacPro build quality is said to be very good; and they have very well designed cases which make adding and removing items extremely easy.


RE: Build better computers?
By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 6:53:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Display: While higher resolution (1400x900 v.s. 1680x1050) the W500 display is much lower brightness and lower contrast (we're talking about half as bright as the MBP); and the viewing angle is much worse. I'd rather use the MBP display any day


http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/31/appl...


RE: Build better computers?
By AmunRa on 4/18/2009 6:31:30 PM , Rating: 2
If I recall correctly the issue with the Apple class-action was that they claimed the display could reproduce more than the number of colours a 6-bit display can (which is the display they use). Apple are not alone in using 6-bit displays; virtually all non 'professional' TFTs are - see http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/6bit_8bit.htm and http://compreviews.about.com/od/multimedia/a/LCDCo...

I can't find any definitive info; but I it sounds like the W500 also has a 6-bit display. I'll try out the test pattern when I get back to work.

P.S. Even if the W500 screen is 8-bit, I still stand by my comments - the MBP display is much nicer to work on. (Note: I'm not a computer artist or similar, so I'm not really bothered if the display is 6-bit or 8-bit, I doubt I could tell the difference.


RE: Build better computers?
By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 7:48:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
virtually all non 'professional' TFTs are


What do you see wrong with this comment if we are talking about a Macbook Pro ?


RE: Build better computers?
By AmunRa on 4/19/2009 6:41:30 AM , Rating: 2
My point is that most laptop displays are 6-bit; i.e. you have to go to standalone high-end TFT monitors to get 8-bit displays, Apple are no better or worse than the rest. I haven't the slightest bit of interest in who got sued for claiming their screen could do more than 6-bit; my point is simply that personally I find MBP screen much better to work on than the one on the W500.

Bit-depth and resolution arn't the only data points to consider when evaluating a laptop screen; they are just two of the more easily quantifiable. I'd argue that brightness, contrast, viewing angle and backlight quality are just as important.


RE: Build better computers?
By Reclaimer77 on 4/17/2009 4:35:45 PM , Rating: 2
lol omg you beat me to it. This idiots argument would be like someone saying "Firestone should build better cars".


RE: Build better computers?
By Scott66 on 4/19/2009 10:33:09 AM , Rating: 1
Then why is Microsoft criticizing Apple computers in the ads. Microsoft does not make computers.

If Dell and Sony complain about Apple computers, I might consider their viewpoint credible.


Biggoted?
By Moohbear on 4/17/2009 4:10:59 PM , Rating: 2
I don't really understand the hatred for Apple pouring from the comments. It's just a computer company trying to make money. They have their niche and it's working for them. They don't cater to all demographics. I'm pretty sure the standard DT reader is not their target, nor is the average joe looking for a cheap notebook. Maybe they have holes in their line-up, but I'm pretty sure they're smart enough to know about it, and decided not to do anything about it.
As for their marketing, it's aimed at people likely to buy their products. You may not like them, but they're around. Sure, it's blatantly biased, overhyped and demeans competitors. But I don't recall marketing being sensible or a source of unbiased and reliable info (remember the Pentium 4 that speeds up the Internet?). There are some Apple fanbois like the Hesseldahl guy cited in the article and there are anti-Apple douches right here vomiting their hatred. In both cases, they should remember what all this fuss is about: a niche computer company...

Disclaimer: I have a Mac... and a PC and I'm satisfied by both. Different computers, different uses.




RE: Biggoted?
By TomZ on 4/17/2009 4:33:33 PM , Rating: 5
A lot of techie-types hate Apple because of their arrogant marketing and their use of FUD marketing to convince people to overpay and support their vertical monopolies. Clear?


RE: Biggoted?
By Moohbear on 4/17/2009 4:48:27 PM , Rating: 2
What company doesn't try to convice people to buy their stuff with biased, one-sided arguments or FUD? I would think that's what PR and marketing department are about. MS is doing the same thing with their last serie of adds as it stands: comparing bargain-basement PCs to Macs. Why didn't they use computers from Sony instead of cheapo HPs? Or even high end machines from HP? Isn't that deceptive as well? If a company is truly lying in their adds, sue them and get rich! And I like Apple "vertical monopoly" as you put it. Actually, that's one of the reasons I buy Macs, because of the hardware/software integration.


RE: Biggoted?
By TomZ on 4/17/2009 5:10:25 PM , Rating: 2
On the other hand, I'm able to effortlessly "integrate" nearly any software I wish on my Windows machines, without having to suffer from the lack of choice or premium prices of Apple.

Vertical monopolies mostly suck for the customer.


RE: Biggoted?
By Moohbear on 4/17/2009 5:26:16 PM , Rating: 2
I'm satisfied with the all-in-one solution for my laptop. And I prefer the customized option for my desktop. As I said, different computers, different uses.


RE: Biggoted?
By Alexstarfire on 4/17/2009 5:32:05 PM , Rating: 2
Pardon me, but what laptop isn't an "all-in-one" solution?


RE: Biggoted?
By Moohbear on 4/17/2009 6:00:20 PM , Rating: 2
I have "used" (ie serviced for others) non-Mac laptops and they always come bloated with proprietary control software, poorly integrated drivers, etc, because the manufacturer adds it on top of Windows. Sure, I can wipe it clean, re-install Win, look for the drivers and most of the time, it works. But I've never had this problem with my Macs. Everything comes nicely integrated within the OS. No fuss, no mess. If I cannot build my own lappy, so why bother then?


RE: Biggoted?
By TomZ on 4/17/2009 6:32:46 PM , Rating: 2
That line of reasoning only makes sense if your needs just happen to be the same as what the OEM (Apple or whomever) decided to supply in terms of hardware and software.

In reality, different people use their machines for different purposes, and so some loading of software and plugging in of devices is going to be necessary. And I don't see how either (a) Apple has it more covered than Microsoft, or (b) how such customization is any easier in the Apple world. If anything, it's harder in the Apple world because you have far fewer choices, which is what I said earlier.

On a side note, last night I bought a like-new used Dell laptop from someone for pretty cheap. It took me less than two hours start to finish to load Windows 7 and install all the apps that my wife uses. The machine works perfectly now for her, and I just can't see how Apple can even begin come close to that kind of experience.


RE: Biggoted?
By Boze on 4/17/2009 7:16:20 PM , Rating: 2
They can come very close...

...all you need is double to triple what you paid for that laptop.

I see people defending Apple to the death, probably because as a rule, humans hate thinking they didn't get the best deal they possibly could have. Its hard for someone to swallow that they paid entirely too much for something. Sort of like how my uncle got a Toro LX500 lawn tractor from The Home Depot for awhile back for $1899.99. Its not a bad lawn mower, it has a 24 HP engine, a 50" cutting deck... except that its Toro in name only. Toro outsourced that model to MTD, to be built exclusively for The Home Depot. He basically paid for the name... sort of like... Apple computers? :)


RE: Biggoted?
By Suntan on 4/20/2009 2:25:10 PM , Rating: 2
With that LX tractor, you are getting an MTD true. But it has been built to Toro specs and tested to Toro requirements (appropriate for the price point.) Also, if there are failures, you are getting warranty/service through Toro as opposed to dealing with MTDs service (or lack there of.)

That said, the LX line is still a far cry from a Wheel Horse model.

As to the topic at hand, if either computer does what you want them to (type papers, play DVDs, etc.) does it really matter that the more expensive one is made of “Better Components?” In the end, you’re still paying more to get the same letter typed or DVD played.

-Suntan


RE: Biggoted?
By Moohbear on 4/17/2009 11:41:01 PM , Rating: 2
You're not going to add much hardware on a laptop, so yeah, you're going to have to deal with what the OEM provides in general. I just find the whole package better integrated with the Mac than with a WinPC. The PC always comes with additional crap:touch pad control panel, bluetooth/wan drivers/utilities, graphic drivers, etc. They're not integrated to Windows, work more or less and are always messy to use. Most of it can be removed and replaced by "generic" stuff, but some cannot. You just don't get that with OSX, because the same guy makes the computer and the OS. You may not like it, but it has its advantages. Now, one, it's an opinion and two, I wouldn't trade my home-made desktop for an off-the-shelf computer, Apple or Windows.


RE: Biggoted?
By Whaaambulance on 4/18/2009 12:04:52 AM , Rating: 2
Wall of text dude. Try using punctuation.


RE: Biggoted?
By Alexstarfire on 4/18/2009 3:41:04 AM , Rating: 2
I'm glad you very conveniently didn't answer my question. If you mean all-in-one in terms of software it comes preinstalled with.... that's good for you. I for one would rather start with the bare minimum. Sadly that means if you buy a PC laptop that you're probably going to have to reinstall yourself. And I won't lie, finding drivers for many of these things is damn hard... but that's widely due to the vast number of different configurations and hardware that can be used.

The way I've always seen these Mac vs PC threads is more like a console vs computer argument. You can't directly compare the two although with Mac vs PC you can get very close to a direct comparison. It's hard to compare set hardware, or practically set hardware in this case, to compete customization. You can optimize things very heavily if you have set specs, which is the only reason why consoles don't fall behind so damn fast. Sadly the way it is with Mac vs PC is rather like having a multiplatform game. Sure, every console can run it, but none very well. On the other hand if you have exclusive games they run very well on the console they were designed to run on. Kinda the same with Mac vs PC. Since many try to be cross platform they can't optimize for either one. Although PCs can't really optimize since it can have a trillion and one hardware configurations. Macs probably have a little more optimization with the lack of customization options... but probably still not as much.


RE: Biggoted?
By Moohbear on 4/20/2009 1:35:53 PM , Rating: 2
Ok, by all-in-one, I mean one company doing the design of the computer and the OS. It used to be the rule in computing (Atari, Commodore, SInclair, Apple, etc).
Now, you have one guy making the computer (HP, Dell, Acer, etc) and one guy building the OS (MS). It's good in the sense it gives you more choice for the computer. However, integration suffers. I haven't seen HP or Dell go very deep into customizing Windows to their machines. They source a lot of software for their peripheral form third party vendors/manufacturers.
That's weird as Windows would otherwise work fine with just plain drivers. But they seem compelled to add "value" with another layer of (dreadful) utilities to "help" configure the network or bluetooth or the display. If Dell offers to give a plain jane Windows on their laptops, I was not aware ot it. I know my wife's HP came loaded...

I agree that Apple offers a very limited choice of machines, they don't have cheap entry-level suff, they don't have a clear mid-range tower, they don't have a netbook, etc. You can buy a laptop PC for a lot less money than a Macbook or Macbook pro, all the while getting better specs. But you don't get OSX and the fit and finish is certainly different.
That comes with a price, just look at the Voodoo Envy or the Dell Adamo. When PC manufacturers build machines similar to Macs, not just similarly specced, they come with a similar price tag. Maybe it has no value to you (which is fine), but it has some appeal to me. You can call that stupid, pompous, or plain arrogant if that's what you feel, but it's just having different priorities. You can buy "high-end" or "luxury" stuff, or you can buy cheap and improve it yourself for a lot less money, provided you have the time and the will. Both are fine in my book.


RE: Biggoted?
By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 11:41:02 AM , Rating: 2
As mentioned before, not everything that comes pre-installed is what a user will want. Apple is no more correct than any other OEM.

I for example buy a laptop for watching videos on the go. If I bought a Mac, majority of the software that comes pre-installed would be taken off.

Dell use to give me the benefit of buying a laptop with nothing more than Windows installed. No other software at all.


Security will be their downfall
By fsardis on 4/17/2009 2:50:48 PM , Rating: 2
It will be the ultimate irony when it happens but if you look at the signs, you will soon conclude that Apple will take a rough ride down the security hill.
Yea it is based on UNIX so bloody what? The application are getting hacked left, right and centre. You got the first signs of viruses showing up and also a brand spanking now botnet (welcome to the club). Plus, with their users being so ignorant and Apple not promoting security, the chances are that a large number of their users will be infected and have no clue about it. Oh what a lovely thought it must be to be infected and have no security software to warn you.
Their bloody systems got hacked 1st for 2 years in a row in every security conference I have seen with Win and Linux falling second and only after user interraction was allowed. So while for a PC the user is the weak link, for a Mac the system itself has gaping holes.
The worst thing is that Apple pretends those things do not exist and hardly ever talk about security or advise their users on best practices. It would be understandable if they maintained this attitude towards the press to hide the problem but at the same time they seem to be really slow to updates. Their arrogance or perhaps plain ignorance on security will burn them soon. Just the fact that they pretend their systems need no security software or updates and that it is a negative thing for PCs have security measures, shows their ignorance and also demonstrates how ignorant their customers must be for falling for this misinformation.

We will definitely see more security holes exposed on Apple soon unless they fall in the same slumber they have been for the last 20 years and malware authors stop bothering with them.




RE: Security will be their downfall
By SameOld on 4/20/2009 3:42:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Their arrogance or perhaps plain ignorance on security will burn them soon. Just the fact that they pretend their systems need no security software or updates and that it is a negative thing for PCs have security measures, shows their ignorance and also demonstrates how ignorant their customers must be for falling for this misinformation. We will definitely see more security holes exposed on Apple soon


I've owned PCs and Macs for along time. I can remember years ago when Apple would sell about a million Macs per year. They are now doing over 2 million per quarter (and yes, that is since the recession has began). So where are the viruses? I have to click on my AVG free - why isn't microsoft providing free anti-virus software - application on my PC every couple of days and down load another what ever it downloads.

So when will Macs get these viruses? When Apple get 7%, 10%, 20%,... of the market share? I've been hearing this same argument for years now and my new 2009 Mac Mini just keeps ticking. And if Apple is so arrogant and Mac users so smug, wouldn't hackers, I mean PC Hackers just love to rub it into Mac users faces?

Or maybe it is because Unix was originally developed by DARPA during the early precursor of the internet days to be inherently secure from enemies.


RE: Security will be their downfall
By Whaaambulance on 4/20/2009 3:53:24 PM , Rating: 2
RE: Security will be their downfall
By SameOld on 4/20/2009 4:02:02 PM , Rating: 2
OK you win! Your argument is so powerful that I've completely capitulated.

I've yanked my Mac off the internet and I'm shaking and quivering in my shoes in a flop sweat. I'll only use my PC from now on.


RE: Security will be their downfall
By Whaaambulance on 4/20/2009 4:03:22 PM , Rating: 2
My my my... testy aren't we? You are so defensive. I simply posted a link and you go nuts. You must be Pirks' brother.


RE: Security will be their downfall
By Scott66 on 4/20/2009 10:49:06 PM , Rating: 2
It's called sarcasm and skillfully done.


RE: Security will be their downfall
By Pirks on 4/21/2009 1:42:22 AM , Rating: 2
Don't ask sick Whaaaimbecile to understand what the sarcasm is, he'll never get this ;)


RE: Security will be their downfall
By Whaaambulance on 4/20/2009 3:56:33 PM , Rating: 2
RE: Security will be their downfall
By SameOld on 4/20/2009 4:06:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Malware hunters at Symantec have discovered a direct link between a malicious file embedded in pirated copies of Apple’s iWork 09 software and what appears to be the first Mac OS X botnet launching denial-of-service attacks.


Let's see...."pirated copies"...Ok..."first"....

That's two examples. How many more till we get to 5% of all known issues with Windows?


RE: Security will be their downfall
By Whaaambulance on 4/20/2009 4:10:10 PM , Rating: 2
Market share.

How many computers run Windows vs. OS X? How many hardware configurations does Windows have to work with vs. OS X?

The point here is, before you go off yelling and getting all crazy again (Go take your meds or something), as Apples market share increases, so does the risk of viruses and other security issues.

Security through obscurity is what Apple is preaching.


RE: Security will be their downfall
By Scott66 on 4/20/2009 10:56:46 PM , Rating: 2
How many configuration of Windows do the hardware makers have to make their components work with.

Also hardware has nothing to do with viruses. Drivers, Bios and hardware monitoring software provides many entry points for virus makers. Advantage -- Apple


By themaster08 on 4/21/2009 7:27:11 AM , Rating: 2
You totally missed the point.

Increased popularity = Increased vulnerability. Is that simple enough?


"No need for antivirus on the Mac."
By therealnickdanger on 4/17/2009 10:57:36 AM , Rating: 3
LOL




RE: "No need for antivirus on the Mac."
By xti on 4/17/2009 11:14:40 AM , Rating: 5
malware designers...even they are efficient. Write something for the huge number of pc users, or all 43 mac users.

I wish MS's next commercial just said that. 'You would have more viruses on macs if virus creators thought you were worth their time/risk/a damn'.


RE: "No need for antivirus on the Mac."
By VashHT on 4/17/2009 11:58:37 AM , Rating: 4
My roommate just had his mac wiped and the OS reinstalled for the 2nd time since he got it. He bought it to look at porn cause he heard they're immune to viruses, I got a good laugh out of it. He still swears its a nice machine that's worth every penny though, it's like it emits waves to modify people's thoughts...or maybe people just don't want to admit they overspent on a laptop.

As for what this guy is saying about software, sure you might have to buy a few extra programs for a PC but you have a hell of a lot more choice than just being saddled with iLife and not using any of it (which most people do). I've never met anyone who has a mac and used garageband, who would want to record music on a laptop anyway, the inputs are probably pretty bad on it. When it comes down to it guys like this act like having software forced upon you is somehow better than being able to choose what you want to use, it baffles me.


By Akrovah on 4/17/2009 7:28:33 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah, you know, now that I think about it, didn't Microsoft get sued for something like that?


By amandahugnkiss on 4/17/2009 1:59:43 PM , Rating: 4
Seems like a good place for this:

"...what appears to be the first Mac OS X botnet launching denial-of-service attacks."

http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=3157


In Summary...
By nayy on 4/17/2009 11:37:06 AM , Rating: 4
Mac are more expensive because they force you to pay for software that you may or may not need, when you could very get other versions online free or other wise.

I just don't know how the EU lets them get away with these monopolic practices.




RE: In Summary...
By pequin06 on 4/17/2009 11:59:50 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Mac are more expensive because they force you to pay for software that you may or may not need,


Honestly, Macs are more expensive because someone will pay for it.

It's capitalism. If people didn't pay, the prices would drop but why drop the price when people pay?

My issue is the smug and snarky Apple users which is now the sterotype of Apple users.


RE: In Summary...
By nayy on 4/17/2009 2:53:15 PM , Rating: 2
I totally agree with you, Apple gets away with selling overpriced computers because there are people (mostly smug driven) that are willing to pay for them.

I was just summarizing their own argument as to why they are overpriced, "Software" which I find absurde, we know that what they are selling is Brand & Desing, but they don't want people to know how much they are charging for them, so they say its the software.

Microsoft could add every one of those features to windows without a significat increase in price thanks to their sales volume, but they would get sued even more than they are now.


RE: In Summary...
By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 11:53:46 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's capitalism. If people didn't pay, the prices would drop but why drop the price when people pay?


It's not about the price they pay, it's the amount of ppl who pay. By lowering your price, you can get more ppl to purchase. You benefit by selling more software/hardware/support for the product.

Like how Linux companies give out the OS, but make millions off tech support.


RE: In Summary...
By VashHT on 4/17/2009 12:04:55 PM , Rating: 5
Seriously how does MS get sued for including something like IE and Apple can get away with forcing frivolous programs like a recording program on customers...


RE: In Summary...
By Penti on 4/19/2009 6:06:19 PM , Rating: 2
Apple is an OEM, Microsoft isn't. Apple can decide what's goes on the computer just as every other OEM. If the roles where reversed MS could do as they pleased too.


By Targon on 4/17/2009 3:47:13 PM , Rating: 2
If the people at Apple really feel that the computers are so much better, why do they fear opening up MacOS to run on ANY PC as long as the components are certified for MacOS? At that point, if Apple REALLY had a case for their computers being better, people would continue to buy Apple brand computers. Instead, Apple locks MacOS to Apple computers because they know there is an insane mark-up in terms of their computers.

MacOS vs. Windows is more of a religious debate, but Apple tries to cloud the issues by locking their OS to their computers and then trying to say that their computers are better.

Since this locking of MacOS to Apple computers has been hacked, I am surprised we do not see more comparisons where someone takes a $400 basic Windows machine, throw MacOS on there, and then compare it to a $1000 Mac in terms of performance. Then go on by doing a comparison of $600 computers and seeing how well they compare. If people could prove that a non-Apple machine could run MacOS and MacOS software as well as the Apple branded machines but for less money, that really would put a nail in the argument that Apple keeps trying to push about their machines being better at the prices they are selling them for.




By TomZ on 4/17/2009 4:17:03 PM , Rating: 2
Good point, one reason that Apple locks OSX onto their hardware is because it forces people to buy their overpriced hardware if they want the "Mac" experience. It protects their business model, which is a vertical monopoly.

But in addition, they lock to their own hardware because they are not even close to being able to support "all known PC" hardware in the marketplace. Only Windows, and to a lesser extent Linux, can do that. Apple cannot.


By Pirks on 4/17/2009 6:10:37 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
If the people at Apple really feel that the computers are so much better, why do they fear opening up MacOS to run on ANY PC as long as the components are certified for MacOS?
Because Apple prefers to spend their engineering efforts on developing and polishing useful features instead of wasting their time and money supporting gazillions of all possible hardware configurations. It's much easier to develop new OS for a small set of hardware, since it allows Apple to focus on what's the most important these days - smooth/elegant/simple user interface, aesthetics and all the other polishing in general (battery life, cooling, thinness, weight etc etc).


By Akrovah on 4/17/2009 7:38:13 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, a solid point for Apple's level of integration, in fact its best point. However supporting "gazillions of all possible hardware configurations" is what truly gives a user freedom to do what they want with their computer.


By Targon on 4/18/2009 6:37:05 AM , Rating: 2
I never said that they had to support EVERY hardware configuration. They could easily say that you MUST use AMD/ATI Radeon graphics for example, even only supporting a select number of those products. The same goes for motherboard chipsets, they could put hard limits on what they will support.

The basic idea here is that if they choose not to support MacOS on EVERY possible combination of hardware, they could still make it open as long as what is supported is clearly defined. It still lets them focus on the software side, without saying you need to have a specific brand and model of motherboard, CPU, memory, etc.

There is something called standards for this very reason, so a company can make a product that WILL support 3rd party add-ons, or for software, to allow for different manufacturers to make compatible components. How do you think we have hard drives, IDE controllers, etc that all work together with different systems?

You see the difficulties with the integrated RAID controllers on motherboards due to there not being any standard for how the controller talks to the system. The result is that we need drivers for this RAID controller, or that RAID controller in order to talk to the array. Microsoft could push for a new standard, so that no matter how the array works internally, it will be seen as a new standard type of equipment, and you could use a single driver to talk to it. Apple could also say, "If you want your machines to have the "MacOS certified" label, you must do this, and this, and this, even to the point of including a $1 chip to go onto each product to get that label.

Going back to my point, if people are able to crack MacOS X to run on $650 laptops and $400 Windows based computer towers, and they run decently, that would again show that Apple is just trying to lock people in, and that their so-called "better hardware" does not justify the high price tag.


By Penti on 4/19/2009 6:23:40 PM , Rating: 2
Allowing a third party build a computer with the exact same parts in the same plant is pretty pointless though. Apple choosed to go with Intels EFI, which means they would have to supply EFI firmware to all those third parties and ATI/Nvidia partners need to sell mac only cards in more channels.

The only way to get a cheaper computer would be using cheaper lcd-panels, batteries and older hardware. As I'm sure they wouldn't be giving away the OS for free. I'm sure the ODMs wouldn't charge them less either. The other problem is getting the hardware companies to write OS X drivers. If allowing any none apple hardware to be used. They could also revert to support common AMI/Award BIOSes, but you still need drivers for all parts..

Besides Apple tried clones and the company nearly disappeared because of it. Steve Jobs NeXT company tried licensing the NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP OS and technologies but that model failed. So I understand why they don't want to become or would hesitate to become a software company. They don't see anything to be gained by it.


By Pirks on 4/19/2009 11:07:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
They don't see anything to be gained by it.
Too bad Apple is too blind to see that profits that MS makes off its software are WAY __WAAAY__ bigger than Apple's profits based on hardware sales model.


By Penti on 4/20/2009 1:05:36 AM , Rating: 2
NEXT was a software company and didn't make lots of money so it's understandable and they are not blind. MS has never bin any other kind of company. NEXT tried both complete systems and as a licensed OS. What created OS X was the marriage of NEXT/OPENSTEP with consumer and multimedia oriented Apple. It was just one influential but among many other Unix-variants before that. Apple is still a 30 000 employee company it's not starving to death because it's an OEM. I wish it would be open too but if it where it would be something totally different to what is today. MS is just a 90 000 employee company and it got lot more products then a OS and video editing tools. It doesn't make much sense trying to turn it into something it's not, most computers are used for business any way. The only way it would have a chance to grow more is to be able to be sold with lousy computers from other OEMs. But that's what Apple tried in the 90's.


By Pirks on 4/20/2009 2:04:03 AM , Rating: 1
NeXT sold those crazy expensive UNIX workstations for $10,000 each and never tried to sell anything like Windows or OS/2 or any other consumer level desktop/server OS. The only company who made an attempt to become software powerhouse was IBM but they lost it to BG team, and OS/2 died. Apple or NeXT never even come close to this, never even remotely attempted. Crazy expensive UNIX workstations and some weird UNIX licensed to noone knows who (academia?) do not count as a real attempt.


By Penti on 4/21/2009 10:28:17 AM , Rating: 2
An IBM PS/2 did cost $10,000 dollars so your just unfair now. Unix workstations where vastly popular in the 90's.

It's not like a Sun SPARCstation 4/5 was expensive. NeXTSTEP did cost $799 though. But it was a real attempt. It did just cost as much as a Apple power mac.


Let's Try a Real Comparison
By GeorgeH on 4/17/2009 6:13:37 PM , Rating: 1
17” Apple MacBook Pro:

2.66GHz C2D (T9550?)
4GB 1066MHz DDR3 – 2x2GB
9600M GT 512MB // 9400M 256MB (switchable graphics)
DVD writer
Wireless-N + Bluetooth
Webcam
320GB 5400RPM HD
1920x1200 LED
Backlit Keyboard
1yr Warranty
6.6lbs; 0.98x15.47x10.51”, 160in^3
8Hrs Battery Life (claimed)

$2799.00

17” Lenovo W700 (Vista Ultimate 64):

2.53GHz C2D (T9400)
4GB 1066MHz DDR3 – 2x2GB
Quadro FX 2700M 512MB
DVD writer
Wireless-N + Bluetooth (Intel 5300)
Webcam
320GB 5400RPM HD
1920x1200 400NIT TFT (72% Adobe RGB)
Thinklight (versus backlit keyboard)
1yr warranty
8.6 lbs; 1.5x16.1x12.3”, 300in^3
3Hrs Battery Life (optimistic extrapolation)

$2474.00

Differences:
CPU – Advantage Mac (2.66 vs 2.53 GHz)
GPU – Advatage PC (~9700M GTS vs 9600M GT, ~7700 vs ~5200 3DMark06)
LCD – Advatage Mac (according to subjective reviews)
Weight – Advatage Mac (6.6 vs 8.6 lbs, 2lbs or ~25% lighter)
Dimensions – Advantage Mac (160 vs 300 in^3, ~50% smaller)
Battery – Advatage Mac (8 vs 3 Hrs, ~2.5x longer lasting)
Price – Advantage PC – ($2474 vs $2799, $325 difference or ~13% more expensive)

Looking at the differences, the Macbook actually seems like a pretty good deal. When you factor in an extra ~$180 for another 9-cell battery for the Lenovo (which obviously also adds more weight and bulk) and still only end up with 6 vs 8 Hrs of battery life, things look even better for Apple.

Maybe if professional reviewers stopped being fan boys and actually did a REVIEW of two comparable laptops, we could get a more accurate picture. Until then, little old me is stuck using Google trying to compare a Mac to a PC, only to get down rated to -1 (clairvoyant assumption, given DT’s readership ;) ) for my trouble.




RE: Let's Try a Real Comparison
By LumbergTech on 4/17/2009 6:34:56 PM , Rating: 2
talk about hypocrisy...you can get a notebook with those specs for much cheaper


RE: Let's Try a Real Comparison
By GeorgeH on 4/17/09, Rating: 0
RE: Let's Try a Real Comparison
By LumbergTech on 4/18/2009 12:02:31 AM , Rating: 2
there are dells for less than 2100 first of all with comparable specs

i searched google for 2.66 ghz core 2 duo 17 inch screen laptop and i find a dell that is 2.66ghz c2d 17inch 1920x1200 display ati 3650 graphics card 4gb ram for 2100 shipped immediately..

you said the apple was 2799

the one im talking about is 2100 ..thats a savings of thats right..699


RE: Let's Try a Real Comparison
By GeorgeH on 4/18/2009 2:26:30 PM , Rating: 1
If you relax the specs a bit, you can actually get into the <$1700 range by going with DDR2, 3650 or slower graphics, and a slightly lesser hard drive. If you decide you don't need a 1920x200 screen you can do even better, and a ~P8400 would be a much better choice from a price/performance standpoint.

So actually it's worse. You can get a laptop with ~80-90% of a MBP's performance for 50% of the cost. That's not a "Macs=Overpriced" issue, though, it's a diminishing returns of expensive hardware issue.


RE: Let's Try a Real Comparison
By Pirks on 4/18/2009 4:27:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
it's a diminishing returns of expensive hardware issue
That's true only if you look at performance and nothing else.


RE: Let's Try a Real Comparison
By Targon on 4/18/2009 8:06:04 AM , Rating: 2
When it comes to there being overpriced machines, there are certain brands on the Windows side where there is a huge markup in price as well. That is NOT in doubt or questioned. The question is if you can find a more affordable option that gives you what you are looking for.

Now, while there are always advantages to having a faster computer, the vast majority of people out there do NOT need the fastest machines, they want something that works. From that perspective, even an Athlon 64 X2 dual core running at 2.1GHz per core is enough for the general public if all they want is basic word processing, web browsing, etc. From that perspective, Apple just could never be competitive in the low-cost arena.

So, Apple loses in the budget area, and can't compete because they refuse to even sell in that range. Looking in the mid range, not the highest range, you get into a bit of a grey area based on features.

Looking at Cyberpowerpc.com, you can get a laptop with a 1680x1050 screen for $1299, same processor and Geforce Go 9600 graphics, 4GB of memory, 320 gig hard drive. Sure the graphics are not as good, and you may not get the backlit keyboard, but they certainly will do the job for most people. So, you pay an extra $1500 for a better screen and a fancy keyboard plus better battery life(which doesn't mean much for people who can plug their computers in from time to time, or bring extra batteries with them). And yes, you get a Webcam in the laptop from Cyberpower as well.
The Cyberpower machine lets you move to a 7200RPM drive for only $15 more as well(same 320GB drive), how much would it cost for the 7200RPM drive from Apple?

There are many reasons to push for higher resolutions on larger screens, but for a 17 inch laptop, the difference between 1050 lines of resolution and 1200 lines of resolution won't mean nearly as much. So, there is your real comparison, you pay a LOT more for the Apple name and a few features that really will be minor for the majority of people. Laptops all slow down when you run them on battery(to conserve that precious battery life you seem to be concerned with), so if you are really working, you will want to be plugged in anyway.


RE: Let's Try a Real Comparison
By GeorgeH on 4/18/2009 3:04:40 PM , Rating: 2
I would have to soundly agree with you that Apple only serves the high end, and as such are wildly overpriced and overspecced for the needs of most people (which is one reason why I don't own one.)

You can find 10+ PC laptops at every price/performance point under the sun, and in that flexibility you are FAR more likely to find something adequate for your needs for much less money than the MBP - that's not in question. What I was objecting to is the notion that the MBP is hugely overpriced relative to identical PC laptops. If I'm wrong in that objection, great; however I just haven't seen any real proof that I am. I'd much rather see proof in the form of a professional comparison review (amazing concept, no?) that the MBP is overpriced relative to identical PCs than a bunch of tenuous "OMG antivirus!", "AVG FTW!", "I <3 Linux", etc. 'arguments'.

Aside: My last laptop upgrade was from a 15.4" Compal HEL80 1680x1050 to a 15.4" HP 8530W 1920x1200, and I can tell you that the extra resolution is a big, big plus. It takes a little getting used to, but now when I look at the more common 1280x800 resolutions I realize that I would absolutely pay a large premium for a high resolution screen. I may not be "typical", but we already new that. After all, I'm a PC guy (that doesn't own a single Apple product) and I'm arguing the Mac case. :0


RE: Let's Try a Real Comparison
By Digimonkey on 4/19/2009 3:26:00 PM , Rating: 2
The biggest problem with that comparison is the video card. The Quadro FX is a CAD card and comes with a hefty premium. I found an Asus laptop on Newegg that fits similar specs to the MBP.

2.66Ghz T9550
4GB
9650M GT 1GB
DVD burner
Wireless N
Bluetooth
320GB hard drive
1920x1200 screen resolution
2 Year Warranty

Final Price: $1450


RE: Let's Try a Real Comparison
By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 12:06:40 PM , Rating: 2
Pirks can verify that I've already shown multiple laptops with similiar specs. Each time the PC had a lower cost and sometimes higher spec'd. The only advantage the Mac had was longer battery life and weight/size. Pretty much exactly what you're showing.

Now for some ppl battery life, weight, and size don't mean jack. As the laptop ends up being nothing more than a desktop replacement. Hell, I bet everyone who owns a laptop have it plugged in and sitting on a desk more than having it mobile.

If they weren't, I'd highly doubt anything other than a rugged laptop would work best for them.


Pretty pathetic attempt
By Insomniator on 4/17/2009 3:01:42 PM , Rating: 2
I have no problems with Apple responding to the ad's just as MS did, but this statement just further proves MS's ads'.

His actual response is that software for PC's costs a lot and... PC's aren't as cool as macs.

Those are pretty pathetic arguments considering 'coolness' is completely subjective and software costs for everyone vary wildly regardless of the platform.

He should have not said anything because really Microsoft has the correct point from the beginning. Is he really trying to convince people to drop an extra 500 bucks based on coolness and ilife software that 95% of people will never use?




RE: Pretty pathetic attempt
By espress0 on 4/17/2009 5:22:28 PM , Rating: 2
Well as an audio engineer I can tell you that I have a mac for that and a pc for gaming. As for prices... If you config the 17" macbook pro and the Dell 6400 workstation with the same specs. The mac is cheaper, not by much but still cheaper. Besides that recording audio in xp or vista can be a nightmare as well as...osx doesnt need an anti-virus at all, who cares if avg is free, I like thte fact i dont need to install extra crap on my machine anyways. As for you gamers you spend way too much money on video cards anyway sli is stupid and a waste of power, 4 cards so you can get 40 fps in crisis. lol. Hardware in general is behind software but show me a laptop with an 8 hour battery?


RE: Pretty pathetic attempt
By Vivi22 on 4/17/2009 8:36:44 PM , Rating: 2
Funny that I've never had issues recording on three different computers using a total of four different operating systems (XP and Vista 32 and 64 bit). I had no trouble setting up my audio hardware and programs on any except the not so supported XP 64-bit, and even then I managed to get it working fine after some struggle. Macs do have some good audio software and hardware available, but the idea that recording on a Windows system is inherently a nightmare is a joke. I've probably known as many people who've had issues recording on a Mac as on a PC. Just because your experience has been smooth in the past by no means indicates that Apple's "Mac's just work" line is true for everyone, just like the fact that I've never had a major issue with any of my computers doesn't necessarily mean every PC user will find using their computer to be smooth sailing.

And on the topic of prices, I could easily get a similar laptop (or even better desktop) with a decent audio interface, and full featured recording software (Reaper) for the same price as the Macbook Pro alone, if not for less money. Definitely a better choice for musicians on a budget who also want quality.

Also, way to go on saying us gamers are all idiots who buy multiple video cards. I don't know anyone with two let alone four. There's a fairly small market for SLI and Crossfire. Most of us are quite happy getting a good single card as one card is all we'd really need to play all but the most poorly optimized games with decent graphics and a playable frame rate. Sites like Anand may review multiple card setups, but I'm willing to bet most gamers don't bother, especially not for a game as average in gameplay as Crysis. But you know, for those who do go for multiple graphics cards, I'm willing to bet that they still spent as much or less than they would for a Mac, and get a hell of a lot more gaming performance for that money. Certainly beats spending as much or more on outdated hardware.


RE: Pretty pathetic attempt
By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 12:32:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you config the 17" macbook pro and the Dell 6400 workstation with the same specs. The mac is cheaper, not by much but still cheaper.


Probably cause the M6400 workstation laptop is built as a workstation. Hence why it comes with a Quadro FX 2700. You know, a vidcard that's hundreds of dollars more than the crap pile in the Macbook Pro.

quote:
osx doesnt need an anti-virus at all, who cares if avg is free, I like thte fact i dont need to install extra crap on my machine anyways.


So why does Apple using anti-virus software, which is also available in their store? There are virus/malware for Macs, but they'd never know as most everyone has no way of detecting it.

quote:
As for you gamers you spend way too much money on video cards anyway sli is stupid and a waste of power, 4 cards so you can get 40 fps in crisis. lol.


Congrats on posting about a game no one likes. Single card dual GPU cards use about 50 watts more than their single card single gpu brothers, while providing a larger boost in performance.

I personally would never use a dual gpu single card or SLI, but at least we have that option.

quote:
Hardware in general is behind software but show me a laptop with an 8 hour battery?


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...

9.5 hours of battery. But a netbook is also a laptop.


RE: Pretty pathetic attempt
By Pirks on 4/21/2009 1:50:05 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
9.5 hours of battery. But a netbook is also a laptop.
From your newegg link: "Battery life - not the rated 9.5 hours, but more than others at a realistic 6+ hours (with the brightness way down, bluetooth off, web cam off, and wifi on)"

That's like a total freakin' miss, krotch. WAAAAY far from 9.5 hour you tried to pitch here :))) Try to do better next time :P hehee


2 Lies Reported in the Ariticle
By hiscross on 4/17/2009 1:40:23 PM , Rating: 2
Lie #1: Mr. Hesseldahl is Not a spokesperson from Apple. He may write about Apple or anything else for that matter, but he doesn't work for Apple so he can't speak officially for them. Lie #2 Wallet breaking cost of Apple's MacBookPro 17". A writer has no right to determine how other peoples money is spent or how they should spend their money. The cost of anything is determined by the market. A company can set any price any price they want, but the market will determine if that price will move that product. I'll leave this with the owner of this site, just report the facts and leave your opinion at your behind.




RE: 2 Lies Reported in the Ariticle
By Alexstarfire on 4/17/2009 3:29:22 PM , Rating: 1
Lie #1 from you: No one said he was from Apple. In fact, it says he writes for Forbes and Business Week. Lie #2: Not everything is determined by the market. Off hand I can think of water, natural gas, electricity, and any other utilities. I'm sure there are others that aren't determined solely by market value. And if you count subsidies as not market value then that includes gasoline, solar panels, and just about any other source of energy.

But hey, we can't all do research.


RE: 2 Lies Reported in the Ariticle
By hiscross on 4/17/2009 10:37:14 PM , Rating: 2
You are wrong on both counts. The article states he is a Apple spoke person. He is not since he doesn't work for Apple. Yes, he does work for Forbes, but Forbes employees are not Apple spoke people. Two energy prices are determined by market location along with taxes and transportation cost. Why do I know all this because I worked for Apple and the energy business. I do know my facts.


By Alexstarfire on 4/18/2009 3:50:00 AM , Rating: 2
Well then please quote what part of the article you are talking about, because EVERYWHERE his name is mentioned is says "Business Week's Arik Hesseldahl, along with an Apple spokesperson" Meaning that he is writing it and someone else is the spokesperson. Perhaps you should take an English class?

And it doesn't really matter if you work(ed) in the energy business, the facts are simple. Since there is no chance for competition in utilities there is no way in hell the market decides, AKA the people/supply and demand. Sure, they might take their best guess on what it would be, but since they are likely to be the only choice available you can't say jack crap.

But hey, if you have direct proof for either of these they please show me.


By Cheesew1z69 on 4/20/2009 10:14:34 AM , Rating: 2
It does not state he is an Apple spokesaman....


Wah wah wah!
By tlampen on 4/17/2009 11:06:14 AM , Rating: 5
I have mixed feelings on both MS and Apple. There are things that I love about MS and things I love about apple and it goes the other way too. I guess what I find funny though is how much of a baby Apple is! They have been ripping on MS for years in their commercials and MS has taken it. However, now that MS has come out with some witty commercials against Apple, Apple gets all defensive. Grow up Apple! This is what annoys me about Apple. They feel that they have NO flaws and that any “perceived” flaw is justified somehow. I like Apple products but I am sorry if I only have $1000 dollars to spend on a laptop, spending it on just the screen of an Apple Mac book isn’t “Worth it.” Stop trying to justify a Cadillac as an economical purchase.




RE: Wah wah wah!
By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 6:10:46 PM , Rating: 2
You called? What can I do for you?


Comparison
By rdeegvainl on 4/17/2009 11:37:17 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
He writes, "Yes, $699 beats the $2,800 you'd pay for a Mac with a 17-in. screen. But when it comes to PCs, there's still a great deal more to buy."

quote:
"Add it all up and it's not hard to imagine Lauren's $699 computer costing something closer to $1,500."

Still cheaper but lets take a look at the individual items he mentioned.
As quoted Actual
AntiVirus 150$ 3 years 0$ Avast
Warranty 129$ 150$ I'll give this one
Photoshop 140$ 0$ Gimp/krita/paint.net
Roxio 100$ 0$ Deepburner/ExpressBurn
Garage Band 100$ 100$ I'll give this one

In the end, 250$ more if you need garage band software. Except for the high end pro's, im sure that there is free software to meet the tinker's needs.
699$ + 250$= 949$
Subract that from the 2800$ mac and you have 1851$ left. You could get about 3 machines with software for the price of the mac. 2 machine decked out with way better hardware, or 1 great machine and a giant Television!!!
And this guy claims its not a deal




RE: Comparison
By dgingeri on 4/17/2009 1:44:53 PM , Rating: 3
Let's compare the Apple to HP's business class laptop that falls in the same class as Apple. It costs around $500 more than the one they are using as the example above, but that is still well below the Apple price.

In addition, HP has a base 3 year warranty, compared to Apple's 1 year base. Also, if you want the Apple repaired, you have to drive to their store and drop it off. With HP, they send a box with a return label, and you just call FedEx to come and pick it up.

HP offers a 3 year on site for $199, which costs $299 for Apple. HP, when you call them for on site service, show up in 1-2 days, usually 1. Apple, if you are lucky, will show up in 2 weeks. (This is from my direct experience with Apple. Sure, you can take it to their store, but who wants to have to drive halfway, or in some cities all the way, across town in order to get your computer fixed?)

All this for $1300 more than the HP. Great, isn't it?!


RE: Comparison
By erple2 on 4/17/2009 5:25:59 PM , Rating: 2
I was looking into buying some of the Elitebooks for that reason - While the MBP is thinner, and claims a longer running time, the hp's offer hardware that's important to me that's either not available on the MBP (WUXGA on a 15" screen, a semi-serious GFX card in a laptop (Quadro 7700M on select 8730w's), quad core processors, blu-ray player), or costs significantly more (going with a 8730w vs MBP 17).

Factor in corporate discounts (which I suppose I can get), and that difference is closer to 1000 dollars.

The MBP does have some nice features, however. I like the thin and relatively lightness of it's 17" MBP compared to equivalent offerings, and the aluminum is shiny. I've seen their commercials to claim 8 hours of battery life, which would also be nice to have. However, I rarely, if ever, am more than 3 hours from a plug of any kind. I also can't see opening a 17" screen on an airplane anyway, so that point is more moot - go with the 15" one and it's more of an issue. How good is the battery life on a 15" MBP doing compiling?


MacPro FTW
By rudder on 4/19/2009 11:32:34 PM , Rating: 2
I just got my macpro configured with the Nvidia GTX285 and it flies!

No not really all they offer are the ATI 4850 or some older nvidia cards.




RE: MacPro FTW
By SavagePotato on 4/19/2009 11:51:16 PM , Rating: 2
For apple to sell you a GTX285 they would have to charge like a $2000 upgrade fee or something based on their price modeling.


RE: MacPro FTW
By Pirks on 4/20/2009 12:08:39 AM , Rating: 1
Hey look guys, this potato FUD tank can TALK, HOLY SHIT!!! :)))))


RE: MacPro FTW
By Pirks on 4/20/2009 12:03:20 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
all they offer are the ATI 4850
4870 you lamer :)


LMAOnade
By tastyratz on 4/17/2009 11:14:13 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
"No need for antivirus on the Mac."


What planet is he from? That's an ostrich approach if I have ever seen one.

Where is Pirks for this article? I noticed a lot of comments but I have yet to see the sea of red ones by everyone's favorite misinformed sheep.




RE: LMAOnade
By Whaaambulance on 4/17/2009 11:39:59 AM , Rating: 2
I was just thinking that :P

But you should check this video out http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1907543

It's pretty accurate on most forums lol


RE: LMAOnade
By Proxes on 4/17/2009 1:31:03 PM , Rating: 2
Shows that they are brainwashed by their own marketing.


Apple vs Mac
By fhaddad922 on 4/17/2009 2:03:05 PM , Rating: 1
Having used a PC all my life and having used a Mac for the last 3 years. I know you are paying a lot more for Apple products, but I think you are getting what you pay for. OS X is far superior to any Windows EVER and I think the form and function of Apple products are far superior to anything from the PC world. I realize that my statement is completely my opinion. But I like others will gladly pay more for Apple.




RE: Apple vs Mac
By ClownPuncher on 4/17/2009 3:01:47 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, an OS should cost you $1,800 because you didn't have the motivation to learn how to use a computer. All these Mac's have are a neat case design and good battery life. The hardware inside (processors, motherboards, video cards, hard drives) are all the same, you can get those for your PC too. Well actually, you can buy better insides for cheaper on a "PC".

So what does $2,800 get you on a PC? Far, far superior internal hardware. Seriously, why would you buy a crippled computer for more when you can get a beefy one for less? Because you like the OS? Pathetic.


RE: Apple vs Mac
By teng029 on 4/18/2009 12:25:24 PM , Rating: 1
who are you to tell someone how they should or shouldn't spend their money? last i checked, people have been paying a premium for certain items and services for years. why they do it is no one else's business.

that being said, the writer's knowledge of hardware and software clearly leaves a lot to be desired. the fact that he states that macs don't need an antivirus program is just plain ignorant. i use a mac and i sure as hell use an antivirus for it. oh, and it's free.

here's an article i came across recently which i think is far more informative than the one posted on DT.

http://www.macworld.com/article/140038/2009/04/win...

i find it amusing to see each side arguing their points. i liken this to talking about religion or politics; everyone thinks they're right and everyone else is wrong.

i like and use macs and the same goes for PCs. frankly, after a decade of using windows exclusively, i find OS X to be a refreshing change of pace. anyone who finds that appalling can go eat shit for all i care.


RE: Apple vs Mac
By Gingivitis on 4/22/2009 5:59:44 PM , Rating: 2
Im a firm believer of letting people have a thing called "personal" choice. If you want a mac go get a mac, if you like PC because it fits what you need it for or whatever reason then get a PC its not hard. Just because joe blow got a mac doesn't mean its what YOU should buy. For example a mac would be cool and flashy to have but I prefer to play PC games. To do that I need a decent desktop so I built my own desktop and installed windows vista. To get the same quality of gaming I do now out of a mac laptop Id be looking at 3000$+ so a mac isn't for me. and I don't use laptops for anything more then browsing the internet so a cheap 400$ netbook will do nicely.


mac at it again yay
By rocky1234 on 4/17/2009 3:57:08 PM , Rating: 2
Just a short point here this guy talks about iLife software that mac includes. I have to ask why is ther eo no one in that market crying foul play because mac includes whatever they want in the OS & does not care who's feet they step on to do it. Now when microsoft tries to include any new software or even software that has been included in the OS for years everyone cries bloody murder & sues them. Ummm I dont see how what is good for one company is not good for the other. The way I see it either Microsoft need to be allowed to put in whatever software like mac does or mac is gonna have to start not including all this extra crap they like to include its as simple as that.

I know not everyone uses all the included software that microsoft is allowed to include but there are a lot of people that do pretty much everyone will use something that is included because it was free.

I hate to burst macs bubble but their PC's are built the same on the inside as a everyday PC for the most part so they can stick that comment they made up their ass & smoke it.




RE: mac at it again yay
By TomZ on 4/17/2009 4:41:54 PM , Rating: 2
Apple can get away with bundling whatever they want with their OS because they don't have a monopoly in that market. Microsoft, on the other hand, does or did have a monopoly, and so they are subject to anti-trust regulations that prohibit such bundling.


RE: mac at it again yay
By Scott66 on 4/19/2009 11:33:44 AM , Rating: 2
Microsoft got into trouble because they "optimized" the OS so IE and Office would work better than competing programs. Then MS would forget to advise their "Partners" of the changes.


It's funny...
By MScrip on 4/17/2009 4:16:23 PM , Rating: 2
It's funny... the people in the commercials actually want a Mac, but they are too expensive. Hear that? They all go to the Apple store or the Apple section of Best Buy and desire a Mac. But they can't afford it.

Why do they want a Mac in the first place... if they are so underpowered and don't run any software?

Maybe Macs aren't too bad after all.




RE: It's funny...
By TomZ on 4/17/2009 4:30:45 PM , Rating: 2
In the commercials, the people "look" at Macs; they don't necessarily "want" Macs.


RE: It's funny...
By rudolphna on 4/18/2009 12:03:17 AM , Rating: 2
exactly. When I go look at cars, I look at Toyta, Lexus, Hyundai, Audi too. Not that I would every buy one. One, most of those I wouldnt shell out that kind of money for, and two, they arent american cars, so its a moot point. But I still look just to compare.


Stopped right there
By rdeegvainl on 4/17/2009 10:57:09 AM , Rating: 5
He says that antivirus software needed to protect PCs against "nasty viruses, worms, and other malware lurking on the Internet" is another $50/year in expenses. He says that Lauren will end up paying $150 over 3 years for such protection. He writes, "No need for antivirus on the Mac."

Considering Avast is free, AVG is free, and the advocation of not protecting your mac... I don't have to listen to another thing this person says.




Better Computer?
By ICBM on 4/17/2009 11:15:14 AM , Rating: 3
I give apple credit for usually having decent quality machines, at least back a few years ago. As far as build quality goes, I don't think you can get a better built machine than a Thinkpad, which I would take any day over an apple.




RE: Better Computer?
By sbtech on 4/17/2009 2:36:20 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed. I use Thinkpad X300. If you use a Notebook for its original purpose - mobility, nothing, I repeat, nothing beats it. The shit is built like a tank. No squeaking. It has internal rollcage design for protection, and is mat black, extremely elegant. Not some shiny white girly stuff.

Macbook Air is a joke. Lemme see. I use a Logitech Nano (the ones with extremely thin usb dongle) mouse, and the dongle is forever plugged into the back USB port. On a Air, I will have to actually take out the mouse dongle to plug in an USB stick.

And no optical drive, and no Ethernet. In all big companies I have worked in, even today, Ethernet is the network, not WiFi.

If I dont use the DVD, I can put in a battery in the optical drive bay. Plus I can swap the main battery with a spare pre-charged one.

Apple is a joke. Strange how it can take some people for a ride.


By Barfo on 4/17/2009 11:26:54 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Rather than running ads that seem clever at first but really aren't...


I guess Microsoft should emulate Apple's truthful and informative commercials huh?

*rolls eyes*




By dgingeri on 4/17/2009 12:00:37 PM , Rating: 5
I'm sorry. I've looked at Macbooks. I need to learn Mac OSX for my job, since we got taken over by a Mac hungry European company, so I've been looking. I just can't justify, even with my job in a slight danger if I'm unable to support it, getting one of those overpriced, "cool" laptops.

I'm sorry, but "cool" just doesn't cover for being unable to do most of my apps, or spending 3 times as long to configure the network, or being unable to access the deep recesses of the OS in order to correct certain things, or having to enter a password 5-8 times when trying to troubleshoot a stupid printer problem, or having to call their supprt 8 times in 2 weeks to get a repair tech to show up. Functionality trumps cool every time in my book.




By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 12:41:31 PM , Rating: 1
Bet the ppl at www.macfixit.com don't have complaints either.

User experiences vary. There is no such thing as 100% flaw free, even if Apple attempts to sell themselves as such.


By CheechedMonkey on 4/17/2009 12:00:45 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Mr. Hesseldahl concludes with more select comments, stating, "Microsoft and its hardware partners wouldn't have to make this case had they focused less in the past decade on driving prices down and more on quality.... PC makers in the Windows camp have done everything possible to make their products progressively worse by cutting corners to save pennies per unit and boost sales volume. There's good reason Apple is seeing healthy profits while grabbing market share. It refuses to budge on quality and so charges a higher price. Rather than running ads that seem clever at first but really aren't, the Windows guys ought to take the hint and just build better computers."


In any business where you limit the catalog of your product offering the way apple does compared to HP, Dell, and Acer/Gateway you automatically save money in several different areas. Since you are buying larger numbers of the same components from manufacturers you have more leverage to get a better price. Apple also has an easier time with tech support since the pool of components is limited meaning stocking replacement parts and troubleshooting issues is less of a headache. Their retailers also have an easier time since they don't have to carry a larger total of inventory versus PCs.

I'm not implying that the guys at apple are idiots. In fact I think they are brilliant for fooling more people every year in to believing they are innovators when in fact they are typically using proven technology/components. They use "PC guys" to pay for the massive leaps in R&D while they reap huge profits. So the real question here is if they are saving so much money why are they charging so much more (stupid question I know)?




By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 12:51:17 PM , Rating: 2
So long as they continue raping their customers, their customers believe they are getting a luxury item. Why things like Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Gucci, Prada, etc are still in business.

You don't need to make a better product to make money. You just need to make it seem like you do and then overprice it. That way you'll maintain the image.


Do what I want!
By Nightskyre on 4/17/2009 1:55:45 PM , Rating: 2
"A PC is no bargain when it doesn't do what you want."

You mean like the way my wife's Mac with iTunes won't support VBR compression on MP3 files? Or how it took 2+ years to get basic functionality (cut and paste) on its mobile devices?




RE: Do what I want!
By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 12:59:27 PM , Rating: 2
Mac doesn't do what I want. That is gaming. A bargain bin PC could, but do it extremely poorly and not all games.


By sapiens74 on 4/17/2009 9:26:39 PM , Rating: 2
Of the Disconnect between the average End User and those in the tech community/Enthusiasts.

Assuming everyone has the time, knowledge and patience to be confident enough to find, download and install all the apps they will need with that Windows PC is naive at best.

I love my Windows machines, I make a lot of money fixing them and making them play nice together, but the average User just wants to plug in the computer and it works, worry free.

Why assume someone is an idiot for wanting to buy a computer which costs more so they can plug it in and do the things they want to do without the need to do the above?




By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 1:06:20 PM , Rating: 2
PCs would be like that too, if it weren't for douche bag Europeans sueing Microsoft for bundling software with their OS, to make a better user experience.


It's obvious
By espress0 on 4/18/2009 12:00:46 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah there is a slight mark up on apple... I like my all aluminum sexy computer with an 8 hour battery. U are just all mad u don't have it. P.S. logic studio is the bomb!




RE: It's obvious
By afkrotch on 4/20/2009 1:08:16 PM , Rating: 2
I like my 10" netbook with 9.5 hours of battery life and fits in my cargo pockets, so that it's truely mobile. Not like the 6.6 pound behemoth you consider a laptop.


Not for me...
By Landiepete on 4/20/2009 3:50:38 AM , Rating: 2
I LIKE OSX. I really do. I would love to be able to run it legally on my PC.

I have considered buying a mac several times. I've checked them out in their webstore. In fact, I was in one of their brick-and-mortar stores two days ago.

But I can't get past their sticker price. 1000USD (here) for a mini. 140$ for the memory upgrade. 200$ for the processor upgrade. To a 2.26.
Alternatively...an iMac. With anemic graphics. Andd a 1200$ memory upgrade. Or another 300$ for better graphics.

No thanks. I pass. Seriously.

Peter R.




RE: Not for me...
By SameOld on 4/20/2009 3:53:56 PM , Rating: 2
I feel your pain. The only good thing about Apple's higher margin strategy is that they are at least in a position to lower prices.

Maybe when Jobs dies of cancer later this year Apple will rethink their marketing and go for greater volume and lower prices.


Buying what you need
By mcnabney on 4/17/2009 11:30:41 AM , Rating: 3
Many people in my extended family have Apple notebooks. They paid many thousands of dollars for them and are very happy with their purchases -

however

All everybody that I know ever uses their Mac for is email, web browsing, and looking at pictures. That is it! They could have gotten an F'ing NETBOOK for all the computer power they needed, but they wanted the Mac for the image/status.

So Microsoft is really dead-on. Apple sells an image and style - not a piece of hardware. If you are the kind of person that doesn't consider Prada and Gucci to be necessities, the Mac probably isn't for you either.




HA!!!!!
By Furryappleseed on 4/17/2009 11:47:12 AM , Rating: 3
Amazing how people will twist reality. Even if I did for some reason want to spend 2800 bucks on a computer, I could get a quad core gaming powerhouse laptop for that kills anything apple has....and still save a few hundred bucks.




Eh...
By RallyMaster on 4/17/2009 12:16:55 PM , Rating: 3
Personally, I think Lenovo Thinkpads look cooler.




is this guy a moron?
By omnicronx on 4/17/2009 1:41:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Arik Hesseldahl, a writer for Forbes and Business Week, blasts the latest Microsoft commercials, writing, "Rather than running ads that seem clever at first but really aren't, the Windows guys ought to take the hint and just build better computers.
So let me get this straight, a writer for Forbes and Business week is telling a software giant to make better computers?




RE: is this guy a moron?
By DrRockzo on 4/23/2009 10:59:26 AM , Rating: 1
Yes indeed the guy is a MORON, and he is just trying to get the people on both sides of the issue riled up over bullshit. Fact is, if Mac's were the better deal/value and were so superior to PC's there wouldn't be an issue, people would do whatever it took to obtain the better product. BUT Macs are NOT the better product, period.
Pirks, I have seen some sorry assed internet losers before, but you Sir take the fkn cake! Get a LIFE get out of the house and leave the goddamned laptop home! So what if the populace disagrees with you.
Lies, lies lies about PC's and Macs, I use/have used both types of 'puters' I own more than one of both, Macs have NO advantages over PC's in performance, ease of use, or scalability. If your Mac uses Parallels or Boot Camp youre a straight IDIOT for not using AntiVirus on your Mac, so theres the AV argument blown out of the water. I have compared a G5 Mac to a Athlon 3000+ single core in Photoshop about 2 years ago, the PC slaughtered the Mac in rendering time, PC's are wayyyyy faster now and also wayyy faster than Macs. Sorry assholes but Macs are status symbols not Computers!


By syntheticmonkey on 4/17/2009 2:51:23 PM , Rating: 3
Most people here seem to truly know what they're talking about. And I happen to agree. Some do not have a clue...

A few points made:
1. The hardware platform is the same. Yes, absolutely. Slapping Unix with a MacOS GUI on a PC doesn't make the PC better.

2. The cost of a Mac completely outweighs the cost of a PC. There couldn't be a truer statement. A Mac will set you back something awful and you're pretty much stuck with it, whereas a PC for a third of the price can easily be replaced. Not just that, but you can also sell the old PC for a little money, add some more and get yourself another PC.

3. Macs bundle most everything softwarewise. True... but since the hardware platform is the same couldn't one just buy a 1000 dollar HP laptop, which will be vastly superior to anything Apple has to offer, and install MacOS in it? Yea, it's doable.

4. People like paying more for quality. Well... people also elected Bush for 2 terms, they believe in the invisible man in the sky, they don't believe in evolution, they get all choked up seeing a cow being killed yet savor every single bite of their sirloin steak. Bottom line, people really don't know what they're talking about. The PC market is COMPETITIVE, and as such the prices are driven down. The Apple market is a closed system. Yea it's doing great now but how long will it last? Your guess is just as good as mine.

On a separate note, I've used Macs since they were actual Macs, you know, when they had the Motorola processors, when Apple put together their own OS without having to borrow from someone else, when Macs cost more because they were indeed a superior product and easier to use. Now they're nothing more than a PC in a fancy case with a 4 digit price tag.
And don't even get me started on the iPhone... On that I just want to say that I have a Windows Mobile phone that can take literally ANYTHING i throw at it. Not to mention the connectivity options, the expandable memory, the variety of applications, the versatility of usage and well, last I checked I actually own it, not Microsoft. I can unlock it, swap carriers, with some tweaking put Linux on it, COPY/PASTE (iPhone fanboys how long did you wait for that one?) and host of other things that the iPhone users cannot even think of doing. I don't want iTunes to be the only point of contact for my phone and I don't want my phone to call the mothership.

Remember the "I'm rich" iPhone app? it cost 1000 dollars and all it did was display a huge red ball on the screen. Yea...
For frak's sake, I bought a 50 inch plasma for 900 dollars. I cannot, ever, in my right mind allow myself to drop 2-3 thousand dollars on a PC encased in brushed aluminum. But as long as there are gullible people out there Apple will continue to have a business.




The magazine guy is very ignorant
By lecanard on 4/17/2009 7:40:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
the Windows guys ought to take the hint and just build better computers


The "windows guys" make an OS, not computers. And no, more stylish does not mean better. I doubt this guy has a clue what the difference in components is.

And I use avast antivirus for free. I haven't bought any of the extra software he thinks I need for my PC.

Anyway, one would certainly hope that the Mac would come with a lot of software because that's about all they will get; the PC software section at most stores is at least 10 times larger than the Mac software section.




By PascalT on 4/17/2009 9:24:08 PM , Rating: 1
Apples are the biggest marketing sham in the history of computers. There's nothing that justifies their over-inflated prices. Nothing. Sure the OS is nice but I wouldn't pay 2x or 3x the price of a PC for it.

Same components inside (and harder to upgrade) but a shiny plastic exterior. Wow! Let me give you all my money, Steve!

I mean, there's nothing wrong in charging $200 for a 1gb memory upgrade when it costs a shitload less for a PC, right?

and this comes from a graphic designer, the supposedly niche market of Macs. (Also a scam by the way, nothing Apple does helps designers in any way, it actually makes it worse since most people use PCs.)


Umm...Okay
By Dark Legion on 4/17/2009 1:02:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Rather than running ads that seem clever at first but really aren't, the Windows guys ought to take the hint and just build better computers."


So now Microsoft also makes computers? Didn't think so. Both Apple and MS make the OS's for computers, but Apple also sells computers, and not only that, they build them with the same components that Windows computers use!! Yet Apple blasts MS plus their partners for building 'inferior' computers? The differences are in the OS and the software, which is up to personal preference, and how much you have to spend.

The man even admits that you can get a PC for $700 with similar performance to a $2800 mac. And then he somehow tries to justify the other $2000 with software that doesn't need to be paid for, battery life (spend an extra $200 or so and you have better battery life, with just a small inconvenience), and the overall quality of macs vs. PC's.




Illogical response
By bubba551 on 4/17/2009 1:19:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
"Microsoft and its hardware partners wouldn't have to make this case had they focused less in the past decade on driving prices down and more on quality"


This statement seems illogical, considering Apple's switch to Microsoft's main hardware partner (Intel).




By Lastfreethinker on 4/17/2009 2:43:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Muvee Reveal ($80) and CyberLink DVD suite ($104), but that there's lots missing. He says a PC equivalent of iLife would also require a copy of Adobe Photoshop Elements with Photoshop.com Plus membership ($140), Sonic Solutions' Roxio Creator 2009 ($100) and the Garage Band-equivalent Cubase Sequel ($100).


Um...no. You do not need any of that. Heck you don't even need an Anti-Virus program if you are an intelligent computer user. So since I don't need any of that if I got a mac I would instead be paying for things I do not need. Hmm...




hmmmm
By Bonesdad on 4/17/2009 5:37:57 PM , Rating: 2
Amazing that so many people will waste so much time on so little news. Wait...doh!! what am I doing?




only difference I can see...
By KITH on 4/17/2009 5:41:21 PM , Rating: 2
between mac and pc/windows is where the ctrl/command key is. In windows it is at the bottom corner of the keyboard and on a mac it is next to the spacebar.

Mind you, it is a lot more convenient right next to the spacebar.

oh, and by the way, I get crap battery time on my macbook. If I am lucky I get two hours.




Wow! I need a MAC!
By Belard on 4/17/2009 7:21:23 PM , Rating: 2
NOT!

I've voiced my opinions about the ADs. They are JUST ADs. The Apple "I'm a Mac" ADs are funny and parody. They aren't real. Why is WinFolk threaten by a 3% market share company? Also considering the fact that most of US don't make a dime either way. Vista is still not popular, Macs are still more expensive than they should be... where is simply a "Mac" Computer than't isn't a $600 book, a $1200 All in One (non upgradable) or $2500 PRO? A $1000 mini tower would be useful.

Anyways... the math the guy comes up with to turn a $700 17" notebook into $1500 is STILL not a $3000 computer. Of course AVG is free, firewalls are free. There are free image viewers and editors out there. Whe "extras" aren't really there. Okay, $100 (avg) for Home edition Office2007. Or perhaps $0 for Open office.

I paid $600 for my 1 year old ThinkPAD (bottom end Dual Core Pentium) which is not my main computer, but does what I need.

But he is right, HP makes generally crappy or okay notebooks. They look good, but they don't tend to last. And they can end up in the city dump... not good.

A quality PC like ThinkPads can be cheap $600 to $2500 top end models. The SL500 is a sleek modern ThinkPAD with HDMI and good battery life. Easily tougher than typical $1000 notebooks and anything HP has. Even Thinkpads 17" W-Series with a 2nd monitor costs less than $3000.

Also, going to the APPLE store to build your MacBook Pro, the Video, photo and audio software add-ons are $200 each.

Lets compare a mid-range (for ThinkPad) 17" model to a 17" MacBookPro.

Mac Book: $2,977.00
Thinkpad: $2,394.00 (Free shipping)

I have configured both notebooks to be the same as much as possible. 17" non-glare screen (apple charges extra), VGA and DVI output costs $130 extra on the Mac.

Differences:
Display Thinkpad has Nvidia FX 2700M w/512mb RAM. Mac has 9600M GT or 9400M.

ThinkPad is 2.8ghz vs 2.66 for the Mac (both with 4GB RAM / 320GB HD and DVD burners)

Thinkpad has VGA, DVI and Displayport output.
Both do 1920x1200 res on thier 17" displays.

Weight:
Thinkpad = 8.3lbs
MacBook = 6.6lbs Not quite 2lbs lighter.

ThinkPad has more communication options, RAID option with two drives (SSDs are optional like Apple). 7-in-1 card reader and a finger print reader.

Optional for about $500 is a version of the 17" Thinkpad with a Wacom drawing pad & Pin built in. Quad-core CPUs up to 3.0Ghz and of course dual screens.

Its good we have choices of what we may want to buy. :)




BTW....
By espress0 on 4/18/2009 12:05:31 AM , Rating: 2
I am not here to knock pc's at all. I am pro-apple but i am all about customizing too. If i didn't need to be mobile I would definitely have built an i7 hackintosh. But my mbp is amazing.




By Chaotic42 on 4/18/2009 2:00:17 AM , Rating: 2
It's late, but I'm ripping CDs, so I figured I post a controversial message in a crazy story. Anyway, I think we all get what Arik is saying here, but come on.

He's comparing the $699 HP to a $2800 Mac. All joking about Macs aside, the Mac had damned well better beat the HP. Let's take it piece by piece:

quote:
No need for antivirus on the Mac


First of all, this is dangerous. Security through obscurity is a bad idea. Yes, it's probably less likely to get infected, but it can happen. With smart computer usage, it's possible to avoid these kinds of things on any system. Let's agree with him and say that she has to have the software. That's $150 for three years as he claims.

Score: HP-$850 MBP-$2800

[quote] Geek Squad will charge you $129 just for a diagnosis. A diagnosis from the Genius Bar in Apple's retail stores? Free[/quote]

Best Buy's two year protection plan (not counting the one year warranty from HP) is $150 for two years. Apple Care for three years is $349.

Score: HP-$950 MBP-$3149

quote:
But if she wants Adobe's (ADBE) Photoshop Elements, including a membership in Photoshop.com Plus, she'll need to shell out about $140


Assuming she needs something as powerful as PSE7, it's well worth the price. I'm on the Apple page right now, and my MacBook Pro configuration doesn't mention iLife. I'm going to assume that it comes with the Mac. I also don't know why Arik wants a Photoshop.com Plus membership, but let's let him have it. Windows Vista comes with a movie editor and DVD burning capabilities, and I honestly don't know why anyone would want GarageBand or iWeb, but whatever.

So she has to buy PSE7 for $140 and Cubase Sequel for $100. Let's hope she doesn't need to use 64-bit Photoshop on that Mac though.

Score: HP-$1190 MBP-$3149

So here we are with a $1200 computer vs a $3150 computer. There's just no way to compare these two. I can't imagine what would happen if Microsoft created MSLife and gave it to manufacturers to bundle with their Windows systems. Cries of monopoly would ring out. The EU government would have an orgasm.

I haven't used Mac OSX enough to be able to give it a fair comparison against Vista. I know there are a lot of problems with Vista (I haven't had any), but I would imagine that there are more people using Vista than Mac OSX, and that they might be more likely to complain. Maybe I"m wrong. The build quality of an MBP is supposed to be in a completely different world than the HP, so there's no doubt that it wins there. Apple has had its quality issues lately, but who hasn't.

So the build quality of the MBP, the supposed superiority of Mac OSX (again, I've only had about 30 minutes with it, so it may be considerably better) over Vista, and a higher screen resolution comes at the price of an extra $1950 and the lack of a huge amount of off-the-shelf software including most games. As I mentioned earlier, 64-bit Photoshop is also out of the question for the MBP (for now).

I just fail to see how there's any comparison. I can't imagine those three advantages for the MBP being anywhere near worth it. Am I completely off base here? Even if her HP falls apart and no one will fix it, she could still buy another to replace it, and then pay for half of a second replacement should the first replacement also be abducted by aliens for the cost of one MBP. Even if the HP were $1500 like he claims, I don't see the advantage.

I see what Arik was trying to do, but I think he really just shot himself in the foot here.




Windows Live Suite
By n00bxqb on 4/18/2009 3:47:05 AM , Rating: 2
The software in the Windows Live suite is a free download (even available through Microsoft Update now) and basically does everything iLife does (except Garageband, but seriously, Garageband is nothing more than a time-waster for most people).

Seems to me like Apple and their supporters are grasping at straws.

I fully agree that the 17" Macbook Pro is a superior machine in almost every single way (OS X sucks for media playback, in my experience. Codec packs aren't up to par, output quality to HDTVs isn't as good as Windows, and, if you have a laptop, you can't just hook it up to your HDTV and close the laptop without 3rd party, unsupported software like you can with Windows. Oh, did I mention you need a $25 adapter ? Only major flaw I've found with my Macbook compared to my Windows-based computers.), but you're also talking a computer that's like $2000 more, too, so I would hope so.




umm...
By swizeus on 4/18/2009 5:25:04 AM , Rating: 2
at least you don't need to break your bank for a $2899 17" Macbook just to do some writing, doing office works and basic gaming, oh, and listening to songs. That's pretty much effective and efficient way. To heavily cut your expenses, download openoffice.org, winamp and just play those mini games on facebook (actually you won't have much time for this if you are working in office environment) and get Avast!Home for your system security. The point is, apple spokesperson IS exaggerating, while the only plus for apple is its exclusiveness (that logo and their OS) and the build of their machine (in which not so exclusive anymore since they're using Intel). So why choose Mac ? I'm A PC... Since 10 years ago, now and perhaps for the future to come




Cool?
By rvw83 on 4/18/2009 5:43:01 AM , Rating: 2
Having a cool mac does not equate getting job / work done.




By corduroygt on 4/20/2009 9:53:12 AM , Rating: 2
I got the cheapest aluminum macbook for $1170 after, ironically -Microsoft Live Search cashback-. That was in december. I got a 320GB 7200 RPM drive and 4GB memory for a total of $150, so that makes $1320.

A comparable laptop would be the dell studio xps 13. Using today's prices, I'd just add the LED screen and bluetooth to make it comparable with the mac, since it already comes with 4GB memory and 320GB hdd, for a grand total of $1244. I could probably get $200 off that with coupons if I looked, so let's say it comes to around $1020. It does have a faster processor but much worse battery life than my macbook so I think they even out.

The Apple premium is about $300 in my case, I was happy to spend it to get Mac OS X, since my experience with Vista over the last 2 years were much worse than my experience with XP. I still have an old dell mini desktop with XP and I'm happy with it, more happy than any Vista computer I've owned. I also thing the multitouch trackpad, aluminum construction, and OS X is worth the premium.




By DrRockzo on 4/23/2009 11:08:46 AM , Rating: 1
Ok, how in the HELL did you get your job? Are you that stupid that you called for a SOFTWARE maker to build better computers?!?! Whats next Adobe Systems Quad-Core PDF reader? MacroMedia's new Extreme Edition Shockwave Player? Dude you ought to be strung up for your IGNORANCE! And you have absolutely NO business writing articles about subjects with which you have NO knowledge! It's easy to write about shit you have read, but you MUST understand it first, bozo!
IDIOT, IDIOT, IDIOT...Dumbass




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