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Apple says it is offering the fastest graphics ever in its iMac systems

Most of the product rumors surrounding Apple in 2008 have been related to the expected 3G iPhone this summer. However, some rumors have been circulating over the last few weeks that Apple was updating its line of iMac computers.

Apple confirmed these rumors today when it announced an updated iMac model range. Pricing for the new iMac models starts at the same $1,199 entry level price the new iMac carried when it was introduced in August of 2007. For the same money today, the iMac line gets a batch of new Intel Core 2 Duo processors with even the low-end model getting a 6MB L2 cache and a faster 1066 MHz front side bus.

The first batch of new iMacs had a known issue with their ATI HD series video cards that caused a freeze requiring a reboot acknowledged by Apple in August of 2007. While that bug has been worked out of the iMac, Apple says that it is now offering the fastest graphics card ever available in an iMac -- and it’s not from ATI.

Customers can opt for an NVIDIA 8800 GS graphics card with 512MB of VRAM offering what Apple claims is up to twice the performance on graphics intense applications. NVIDIA graphics are only available on the 24-inch iMac. Other features include AirPort Extreme 802.11n Wi-Fi, Bluetooth 2.1+EDR, Gigabit Ethernet, iSight camera and five USB ports including the pair on the keyboard.

The base level 20-inch iMac has a 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo CPU, 1GB of RAM, ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT graphics and a 250GB HDD. The system retails for $1,199. Another pre-config 20-inch iMac retails for $1,499 and has a 2.66 GHz Core 2 Duo CPU, 320GB HDD, Radeon HD 2600 Pro 256MB graphics and 2GB of RAM.

The pre-config 24-inch iMac retails for $1,799 and features a 2.8GHz Core 2 Duo processor, 2GB of RAM, HD 2600 Pro graphics and a 320GB HDD. To get 4GB of RAM, the 3.06 GHz CPU, or NVIDIA 8800 GS graphics requires a built-to-order system. A 1TB SATA hard drive is also a built-to-order option. All new models and options are available now.

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Have to love the Mac business model
By Reclaimer77 on 4/28/2008 2:47:50 PM , Rating: 5
They make it such a pain to upgrade, with such a short list of expansion cards available, that you end up buying an entire new Mac when you could just change one thing if it were a Pc.

Brilliant.




RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By FITCamaro on 4/28/2008 2:53:04 PM , Rating: 4
Hence why I won't buy one. I want to be able to add or remove any part I choose. I want to be able to have more than one hard drive. My current file server has 5 drives with 2 more 500GB drives sitting on my desk.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By Shadowself on 4/28/2008 3:04:33 PM , Rating: 3
The iMac is not intended as a server. To imply that you want it to be one shows you have no idea what Apple's intended customer base for this model is. A file server like you describe would most efficiently be built as a headless server -- which Apple's iMacs are certainly NOT.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By FITCamaro on 4/28/2008 3:07:17 PM , Rating: 5
Yes but my file server with its current config cost less than an iMac. That's my point. I get less for more with a Mac.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By FITCamaro on 4/28/2008 3:08:24 PM , Rating: 2
And its not like my file server is anything special. It's a base install of MCE2005. My video drives are just shared on the network.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By Shadowself on 4/28/2008 3:24:29 PM , Rating: 3
I didn't mean to imply that your file server is anything special or that it isn't. It is simply that Apple's target market for the iMac is anything but as a file server (not the lack of eSATA -- and 800 Mbps 1394b [Firewire] is anything but a server interconnect).


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By omnicronx on 4/28/2008 4:22:55 PM , Rating: 5
So what you are saying is it is Mac's business plan to piggyback on MS, because they do not make a server OS?

Exactly what kind of hardware is this sold on?
http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/

I don't see Apple marketing a server Mac, and it has to run on something.

I also find it funny that the first review on the Mac store for this product reads as such:
quote:
DO NOT BUY THIS VERSION! 10.5.2 is not stable!

Here is the one under it
quote:
You can't use the new features in a simple standard set-up.

and this..
quote:
10.5.2 is a huge disappointment. For all the efforts to make set up easier, this product makes it more difficult. Bells and whistles don't trump solid foundational reliability.

Makes me just want to run out and start using Macs as a business OS!


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By aliasfox on 4/28/2008 4:46:57 PM , Rating: 2
Apple actually makes a 1U server called the xServe.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By omnicronx on 4/28/2008 4:55:41 PM , Rating: 3
I am sure they do ;) I was just pointing out that there are probably people using non server Macs for their fileserver needs.


By robinthakur on 4/29/2008 12:09:35 PM , Rating: 2
Yer I'm sure lots of people look at an iMac and just think "Server". Come on, its a lifestyle ccomputer system, its painfully obvious looking at it! People buy them because they want a slick computer which looks pretty in one box, if you can't understand that then do us all a favour and register your displeasure silently by not buying one.

At the end of the day, most peopcle don't leave their computers on 24/7 these days, they put them to sleep, and this power profile doesn't exactly lend itself to a server role. To paraphrase Jurassic Park, "Just because you could, you didn't stop to think if you should..." JP ran on Unix, nuff said...


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By DEredita on 4/28/2008 8:01:02 PM , Rating: 4
As a Mac user, I can confirm that 10.5.2 sucks. It's horrible, upgraded my Macbook (2.16 GHz C2D w/ 2GB ram) to Leopard and as soon as 10.5.2 - it was even more trouble than Leopard originally was for me. I was getting Kernel panics at least twice a day, and had to hold the power button down for 7 seconds to get it to shut down so I could restart it. Software became buggy, start up took forever, etc...

My Leopard experience was so BAD, I completely have wrote off getting a new Mac as a desktop. I have since formatted my Macbook, and reinstalled it with Tiger (10.4.11).

Anyways, you can get a much more powerful system significantly cheaper on the Windows side. Considering a HP d4999t w/ the Intel Core 2 Duo Q9550, 4GB ram, nVidia GeForce 8800GT, Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer video card, Vista 64-bit, wireless card, 15-in-1 memory card reader, 750GB Hard drive, etc... for ~ $1470. That's a hell of a lot better than an iMac at that price. Add another $180, and I can upgrade it to 8GB of ram. Total is $1650. That would definitely hand Photoshop and Video editing far better than a top of the line iMac for $2400+.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 8:09:59 PM , Rating: 2
my experience with leopard was similarly horrible. Although I don't have a rant, it was buggy, incompatible, and they installed coverflow on it.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By DEredita on 4/28/2008 8:29:46 PM , Rating: 3
I work on a Mac all day long. I need stability, and that's why I loved my Macbook. I sacrificed some performance for rock solid stability by using the Macbook as my primary work/personal computer. When I had upgraded this computer to Leopard - I lost all the stability and it was much slower.

There were some nice bells and whistles, but I needed stability and Leopard was deeply disappointing, and exceptionally disappointing. Once Apple released the 10.5.2 update, it got far far worse - and my Macbook became significantly buggy and unstable.

I am back on Tiger (version 10.4.11) and it's all roses again. Only problem is, I am stuck. IF I want a faster machine - I have no options in terms of getting a better and faster Mac, because I would be forced to get one with Leopard.

So, I feel like the only choice I have is to go with Vista 64-bit, which I have tested extensively at work. I have tested 32-bit and 64-bit Vista Business on the same machine, and 64-bit Vista was faster and more stable. I've also worked with a computer lab manager, who deployed a few 64-bit Vista machines quietly in his Vista lab, and everyone who has used those machines preferred them because they were far quicker and more stable than the 32-bit version. This was the same thing I found on my Dell at work, that the 64-bit was faster and more stable.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 8:50:05 PM , Rating: 2
I use 32-bit on my laptop, and although it seems fine, I've been considering upgrading. Thanks for the review. :)


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By DEredita on 4/29/2008 12:44:50 AM , Rating: 2
Make sure you machine can support 64-bit Vista, make sure your machine has drivers for it, make sure the software you use can run, and make sure if you have any printers or devices - that there are drivers available.


By pxavierperez on 4/29/2008 7:02:03 AM , Rating: 3
Is there anything else i should make sure of?
Or should I get just get a Mac.
:D


By larson0699 on 5/2/2008 4:33:52 PM , Rating: 2
If anything sounded like cheap shots at Windows from a Mac fanboy, that did.

The fact is that your software will run on Windows as long as you're NOT running 128 megs of single-channel PC66 and trying to enhance the compatibility of your 16-bit apps.

I don't know where you come off with Vista x64 being faster and more stable, but (again, back to school) most of your apps are written in 32-bit, having to be sandboxed in a 64-bit OS becoming noticeably SLOWER; there are endless threads worldwide about--to put it nicely--substellar x64 driver support (mainly in Vista).

The point is that Windows et al. isn't the PC scare. Vista and especially its 64-bit half are. You probably don't even NEED x64 yet, just go on with that warm feeling like your apps are running "twice as fast".

If stability is priority, then you have overpaid and underachieved with the Mac. Since you've wasted enough money already, but your needs still linger, get Linux. The beauty is that it'll run on anything and run forever, if you don't end up porting all your Mac apps. AND x64 is available.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By ToeCutter on 4/29/2008 7:08:16 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
When I had upgraded this computer to Leopard - I lost all the stability and it was much slower.


It's not Leopard!

It's the crap applications you're running! Apple can't control every app written for Leopard and there's tons of sloppy code EVERYWHERE !

(Whoops! I've been reading WAY too many Vista posts!)


By jlips6 on 4/29/2008 8:14:26 PM , Rating: 2
and which 3rd party applications did he say were giving him trouble? :)

I can't speak for him, but neither can you. You don't know if apple programed these bugs or not. In fact, you know nothing about this at all except that he said once he switched OS's (not downloaded a bunch of new 3rd party apps) that his computer got buggy.

...So... why are you posting unbacked inflammatory remarks that are most likely false?


By BruceLeet on 4/29/2008 4:04:16 PM , Rating: 2
Hey the only Mac user with some common sense, who woulda thunk that up.


By Crowbar77 on 4/28/2008 3:19:59 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Yes but my file server with its current config cost less than an iMac. That's my point. I get less for more with a Mac.


Well obviously, its Apple your going to pay extra for OS X and the "coolness factor". That plus the all in one form factor is a big bonus to a lot of people.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By Doormat on 4/28/2008 4:09:38 PM , Rating: 3
You shouldn't be comparing your file server to a iMac is the point.

Its, pardon the pun, Apples vs Oranges. Apple doesn't really make a consumer file server (airport extreme + USB2 HDD is as close as you get, and its not really comparable since its not really a PC).

I agree that the iMac is definitely not for enthusiasts. I love my MacBook but I'll stick with a desktop PC because I can upgrade parts as needed. I just stuck a Q9450 in my desktop and overclocked it to 3.2 so I could encode videos with handbrake faster. But thats about all I do on my PC - the laptop is used for just about everything else (including writing iPhone software).


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By Reclaimer77 on 4/28/2008 4:43:53 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
You shouldn't be comparing your file server to a iMac is the point.


His " server " is nothing more than a PC with a bunch of HDD's hooked up to it. Right ? I mean, your making it seem like this is something a Mac should never be able to do. Your proving my point.

I agree with him. The pathetically short list of external and internal devices to choose from on a Mac is exactly why I made this thread. I laughed myself silly reading this article and the way Apple words things. Nothing about this justifies a purchase of an entire new system just to get a hot video card that they FINALLY decided to support. You gotta buy a whole system for one or two upgrades !!?? Thats just nuts. I can't understand how someone could buy into that.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By psychobriggsy on 4/28/2008 4:56:00 PM , Rating: 1
I'd just buy a stack of Firewire hard drives - they can be daisy chained you know - and use that. It's unlikely that you'll be pulling 50MB/s off of any home file server.

Lots of people do this with Mac Minis.

Point is, the iMac is a home consumer desktop. It can do the file serving, but its design isn't meant for adding loads of internal drives. I think that is abundantly obvious if you look at it. To even suggest otherwise is to declare yourself cerebrally challenged.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By StevoLincolnite on 4/28/2008 5:59:17 PM , Rating: 3
Why bother Daisy chaining drives on a Mac, doesn't that defeat the purpose of the "Pretty looks less cluster on the desk"?

And I find it sad how PC's have been able to cope being a file server for over 15+ years since the dawn of Windows, Yet Apple cannot get such a simple thing sorted out.

I also found the article to be misleading, I thought that Apple were going to have "the" fastest GPU, thus the 9800 GX2, but alas it's the 8800GS which isn't really anything to write home about, as it has been shipping in PC OEM systems for some time now.

And Calling the Mac a "Home Desktop" isn't all that accurate , Home Desktops generally handle everything under the sun, regardless of hardware (Speed will vary)
But alas, the Mac's cannot handle the vast thousands of games available for the PC natively, nor can they be decent file servers.

If laptops can handle multiple Hard Disk Drives, why can't the mac?


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By 777 on 4/28/2008 6:22:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And I find it sad how PC's have been able to cope being a file server for over 15+ years since the dawn of Windows, Yet Apple cannot get such a simple thing sorted out.

This is not true. I worked at a major film studio over 10yrs ago doing audio work for DVDs, back then we used a 300mhz G3 mac tower for a server, then we eventually went to a G4, then a dual G4 and lastly we had the x-serve, which is made as a dedicated server. Back in 1997 we were running these things almost 24hrs a day 7days with very few problems other than limited bandwidth and slow read and write times, but hey that was 1997.

quote:
If laptops can handle multiple Hard Disk Drives, why can't the mac?

So macs do and have handled multiple hard drives just fine.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 9:19:30 PM , Rating: 1
I still like the G4 better. than the G5 (Not those globe ones with the attached screen, the tower model.)


By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 9:20:08 PM , Rating: 1
*sneaks in, erases period.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By 777 on 4/28/2008 9:45:08 PM , Rating: 2
I had a dual G5 at work, that ran smooth, as did my G4. I have 2000 G4 at home that still runs and is in use everyday. My quad G5 in the beginning had some issues that eventually got resolved.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By Reclaimer77 on 4/29/2008 1:30:19 PM , Rating: 2
For five thousand dollars, and thats WITHOUT a monitor included, it damn well better " run smooth ".


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By 777 on 4/29/2008 5:37:41 PM , Rating: 2
When you make comments like this you are obviously a pretty ignorant fool who just likes to stir it up. Because you don't jack about the cost we paid for our mac's and it certainly wasn't even half of $5000. Don't know where you get your info but it isn't from the real world.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By jlips6 on 4/29/2008 5:53:46 PM , Rating: 2
? where did I say that?


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By 777 on 4/29/2008 6:20:27 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry! wasn't referring to you, I was referencing Reclaimer77's comments. My bad!


By jlips6 on 4/29/2008 6:33:51 PM , Rating: 2
No biggie
:)


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By aliasfox on 4/28/2008 9:57:02 PM , Rating: 2
... I guess you don't realize that the Mac had rudimentary file sharing built into the OS since the 1980s, along with networking based on phone cords and a printer port. So all legacy Macs this side of a Mac Plus can access documents on a separate computer *and* share printers with minimal extra equipment. Imagine that.

Oh yeah, my decade+ old Power Mac 7300 had two HDs in it, and my G4 tower has three in it.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By 777 on 4/29/2008 5:49:31 PM , Rating: 2
Back in '97 we ran a scsi raid of 32 9gb drives from a single G3 tower serving audio out to 7 editing rooms, and it worked great back then.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By StevoLincolnite on 4/30/2008 2:55:42 AM , Rating: 2
Your also forgetting the price premium of such a feature.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By 777 on 4/30/2008 3:22:06 AM , Rating: 2
Actually no I'm not, because for the price we paid the same setup running on pc's was not recommended. And it would not have been any cheaper for us to have purchased pc's to run our audio software and server with the same scsi bay for our editing rooms.


By afkrotch on 4/29/2008 11:47:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Point is, the iMac is a home consumer desktop. It can do the file serving, but its design isn't meant for adding loads of internal drives. I think that is abundantly obvious if you look at it. To even suggest otherwise is to declare yourself cerebrally challenged.


A lot of ppl are doing exactly what you mentioned. They have 4 or 5 externals connected up to it. Sure, it's not being used as an actual file server (aka serving files to other connected devices), but they are constantly adding more and more external storage.

This also happens with PCs, as a normal users doesn't know how to install an internal hard drive, so it's really a moot issue.

Anyone who wants to be building a home file server will not be buying an iMac. Instead, they will be building it using a large case using PC components.

Overall, I don't see what this arguement is even about. If Apple started building an iMac in a large case with 8 onboard SATA connections and a PCI-E 6 port SATA raid controller for like $1500, would those complaining buy a Mac? I'm placing my bets on no. They are just complaining to complain.

Just to let you know, I have a Win2k file server with 5 TB of storage space ( http://www.afkrotch.com/Random_Pics/Inside.JPG ). I know what I need and I know how to build it. Complaining about a product designed around other uses is stupid. If you want a file server using OSX, get a Mac Pro or Xserve. Mac Pro up to 4TB storage, Xserve up to 3TB. You can also connect up external arrays to them, if you feel like it.


By UNCjigga on 4/28/2008 5:48:21 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think this is intended as an "upgrade" for people who bought an iMac last year, but rather for folks who've got a 3 or 4 year-old Mac and are ready to upgrade, or folks looking to buy their first Mac.

Apple still makes the Mac Pro desktop with more expansion, and without a built-in monitor. That said, Mac Pros are ridiculously expensive (NOT "overpriced") and Apple needs to fill a HUGE whole in their desktop PC lineup (and I've said this for years!)

But to compare an all-in-one unit like the iMac with a tower-chassis PC is just dumb.


By robinthakur on 4/29/2008 12:40:08 PM , Rating: 2
Reclaimer77, you're a troll who seems to show up on any thread with the word "Apple" in it aren't you? How surprising to see you here. If you seriously think the Mac crowd will repurchase their beloved mac just to get a new videocard you're frankly insane, its purely a nice minor bonus for new purchasers, of which there are many. Mac fans are not stuck on the upgrade treadmill as you would be if you maintained your own pc for games. I say 'maintain' because upgrading is a frequent occurence. Most people will upgrade only the RAM on their PC's throughout its entire life and this is emminently possible on any mac and no more expensive than doing it on a pc. You can hook usb hard disks up to an Imac and use it as a sort of server, but in all reality, why would you want to? Its an all in one desktop using a laptop chipset in a smart case, nothing more, nothing less, and those that purchase them seem happy enough, so who are you to judge their priorities. Price is clearly important to you. Its not the deciding factor for everybody.


By larson0699 on 5/2/2008 4:52:47 PM , Rating: 2
Well, not understanding it doesn't prevent it.

Welcome to fanboyism. 'Apple or bust!'

What irks me is that in some circles, Apple leads, but in others, they sell themselves short. They really got me with that miniature C2D chip in the Air. I believe they're still the only ones using it. But the HD 2000 series GPUs are atrocious in performance, power draw, and HEAT issues. They even fessed up to its bugs and made a workaround! So WHY would they continue to use these chips when more economical solutions are clear as day?

You wanna tell me that the 8800GS solves their woes? I respect its presence in the market (and its lead over Apple's other choice), but to be frank, it's an 8800GT with one testicle. Memory bus and shader procs out the window, now call it a cheaper card. God how I wish it was still as easy as unlocking pipes via BIOS flash. And this GPU is only an option on their premium model.

That, along with the lack of expandability others noted, leaves them without a dollar of mine. Maybe, if they weren't so obsessed with fashion, they could build a real computer.


By Misty Dingos on 4/28/2008 3:09:02 PM , Rating: 5
But if you don't buy one you just aren't as hip and cool as Rush Limbaugh, Conan O'Brien, Clint Eastwood, or Jerry Seinfeld. How will you live with yourself? Being hip, cool and pretentious is where it is at! /snaps fingers/


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By Crowbar77 on 4/28/2008 3:09:32 PM , Rating: 2
Well you don't really fit in the criteria for Apple's imac target audience. It's just supposed to work out of the box and is for regular people who don't have much computer knowledge. The Mac Pro's are more for the professional market, with a lot more options when it comes to upgrading.

btw you could use externals.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By FITCamaro on 4/28/2008 4:04:05 PM , Rating: 1
Even Mac Pros are extremely limited. And the last Mac Pro case I saw only had 2 hard drive slots. Hardly enough for a true professional.


By andreschmidt on 4/28/2008 4:10:15 PM , Rating: 2
The Mac Pro have always had 4 hard drive bays.

If you mean the PowerMac, that is an entirely different story.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By borismkv on 4/28/08, Rating: 0
By borismkv on 4/28/2008 4:12:19 PM , Rating: 2
Okay, so MS Home Server is the world's worst...but OSX Server is the worst that's marketed for business use.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 5:03:35 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
you have to place a special order to get one without OS X Server
That's just another stupid fanatical lie from an Apple basher who has his brain surgically removed in Redmond.

In fact, if anyone cares, you can check apple.com site and find out the truth - Mac Pro has to be explicitly ordered with OS X Server. If you don't do it by yourself - OS X Server is not going to be installed on it, they'll install a standard client version of OS X 10.5 for you.

Please do not downrate me before checking this by yourself and finding out the truth. Thank you.

If you really care about quality of this forum - you should downrate borismkv instead of me. Just say no to fanatical lies!


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By borismkv on 4/28/2008 6:18:32 PM , Rating: 1
Oh, sorry. I read their "None" comment in the "OS X SERVER" section of their ordering page as "No upgrade to OS X Server"...maybe they should make their web page a little more specific by saying, "OSX Desktop" or something instead of "None". Dude, you're insane. Go take some Lithium or something.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 6:55:39 PM , Rating: 1
Dude, it's you who's either insane or can't read web pages.

In the apple.com's "Tech Specs" page for Mac Pro (http://www.apple.com/macpro/specs.html) they explicitly state that Mac Pro comes with client version of OS X 10.5

Go take some potassium cyanide or something.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By borismkv on 4/28/08, Rating: 0
RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By borismkv on 4/28/08, Rating: 0
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 8:59:42 PM , Rating: 1
RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 8:30:00 PM , Rating: 2
page not found isn't as explicit as it could be...


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 9:06:53 PM , Rating: 2
RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 9:15:46 PM , Rating: 2
lol pirks you know that I know Mac Pro has 4 bays. I'm just making fun of you. Surely you remember our argument back in February? You didn't have to post that link twice.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 9:47:16 PM , Rating: 2
Last thing I remember from that old thread about Mac Pro clone was me laughing hard looking at your attempts to fit non-buffered DDR2 sticks in your Mac Pro clone built on top of Intel 5000X mobo. I wonder if you got any smarter since then or not. Tell me :)


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By jlips6 on 4/29/2008 4:51:36 PM , Rating: 2
I stopped checking that thread for a response about 2 weeks after you stopped responding. I know you were laughing, the spittle and foam was practically coming out of the screen. you sounded like a maniac.

You didn't even know what FB-RAM was, and you touted it anyways. FB-RAM uses less pins, and buffers with other FB-RAM to create a higher FSB. Unfortunatly, while it sounds nice, it stops working after 2 sticks because in reality it's reliant on the FSB of the processors and Board. and the implant only costed an extra seventy bucks which meant it was still cheaper than your base mac pro, which you refused to upgrade because that would blow all your advantages out of the water.

I recall how you were desperatly trying to bring the cost of my computer up by saying that I needed inferior, more expensive parts, like hard drives and power sources, and for some reason, a new chassis. I wonder if you have any more half-assed arguments since then, you tell me. :)


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By Pirks on 4/30/2008 7:34:33 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
You didn't even know what FB-RAM was, and you touted it anyways
Come back when you learn about what type of memory goes into Intel server chipsets (5000 and 5400) 'cause I'm too tired to teach you obvious things about hardware. I'll keep making fun of you as long as you keep babbling BS about the non-buffered DDR2 RAM that you pretend you can stick in your Mac Pro clone.
quote:
you were desperatly trying to bring the cost of my computer up
Yeah, I just wanted to replace your shitty parts with some decent parts that would be on par with Mac Pro quality, but it makes no sense because you don't even have knowledge about basics - like what kind of RAM you can stick in Intel server chipsets. Arguing about little tiny details with a guy who doesn't understand BASICS makes no sense, now does it?

http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/5000X/index... <- this is a good place to start - see those "FB DIMM" letters? That's a lead for ya :P Here's another one with more detailed specs for the supported RAM: http://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/datashts...

We'll talk again once you learn basics. Read up on modern Intel Xeon server motherboards and what kind of memory goes in there. Good luck, son.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By jlips6 on 5/1/2008 11:56:36 AM , Rating: 1
apparently you stopped reading after the words FB-DIMM ram. I explained it's benefits, and it's low cost to replace, and you are skipping over it. as usual. As far as "replacing my shitty parts" goes, the parts I chose have good reviews, and have specs equal to or greater than those of the mac pro, so if you are saying those are shitty, then I wonder what that says about the parts they use in the mac pro.

Your opinion about their functionality is erroneous, and can not be stated as though it really matters since it is in the same category of opinion as saying: "you're a doody-head!" In fact, it literally is saying that, except to parts instead of people.

Let's take this argument past the fifth grade here please. :)


By Pirks on 5/1/2008 3:17:59 PM , Rating: 2
You don't realize that the only memory you can stick in Intel Xeon server board is FB-DIMM memory, do you?


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By Doormat on 4/28/2008 4:13:24 PM , Rating: 2
Thats a load of BS. The Mac Pro has never had less than 4 HDD bays. From when it was unveiled at WWDC in August 2006, to the latest iteration.


By FITCamaro on 4/28/2008 11:21:35 PM , Rating: 2
Perhaps it was a Power Mac. It was a dual G5 box with 8GB of RAM, a paltry 500GB hard drive, and I forget what video card. The cost was a whopping $4000 or more. This was from the fall of 2005. My boss was a Mac fan.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By gramboh on 4/29/2008 3:40:44 AM , Rating: 2
In a dev environment you'd likely be using network mounted drives in a NAS or real file server, why would you put everything internal? If you needed speed for capping you'd have RAID0 2x 15k SAS drives and then network for scratch.


By afkrotch on 4/29/2008 12:02:30 PM , Rating: 2
Try producing an HD movie that requires a large amount of fast storage. My friend makes HD home movies that will take up almost 2 TB of space during the creation, editing, etc. It's simply much faster to have that storage in your local machine, than trying to access it via the network.

In a dev environment, they'd have a cluster farm for heavy workloads and fiber channel arrays. Not something majority of home users can afford.


By Alexstarfire on 4/29/2008 8:53:17 AM , Rating: 2
I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. I can agree that an iMac is much simpler than any other computer to set up, but to say that Macs in general are easier to set up than any other type of computer is just wrong. With every computer I've had it's been little more than color coded wires and just plugging things in where they fit. If you're telling me that the average Joe can't do that....... then I have no hope for humanity what-so-ever.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By sprockkets on 4/28/2008 4:31:53 PM , Rating: 2
It is very stupid, the imac, that and anyone else that uses the form factor. Your computer broke, so that means you have to ditch the 24" monitor you bought too.

This form factor is nothing more than a laptop folded as a tablet. Waste of money for anyone that buys it.


By daftrok on 4/29/2008 2:24:20 AM , Rating: 2
That was what kept me away from All in Ones. All they are is a laptop with a screen in the place of the keyboard. The least they could have done was make the back panel removable so we can upgrade the HDD, video card, wireless, and DVD drive but noooooo. They had to seal it up and only let us upgrade the RAM. Fun. And on top of that the price is a total rip off. You can buy a CPU tower (even the slim ones HP and Dell sell) with the same specs and all you'll have is a couple extra wires hanging out the back. Big whoop! IIS IN THE BACK SO WHO CARES IF ITS THERE?! If you really don't want wires, GET A LAPTOP!


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By spluurfg on 4/28/2008 4:28:42 PM , Rating: 2
I think you're being pretty unfair on the iMac, which has limited expandability due to the fact that it has an extremely small form factor. It's a trade-off for people who want a computer that takes up little space. It's like complaining that you can't upgrade the monitor...


By Alexstarfire on 4/29/2008 8:57:40 AM , Rating: 2
It sounds like he is, but he's really encompassing all Macs into his statement.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By psychobriggsy on 4/28/2008 4:51:31 PM , Rating: 1
I used to think like this, then realised that every time I built my dream PC, the only thing I ever upgraded was the memory and the hard drive. Since you can do that with the iMac anyway ...

Now I don't like having the screen built-in, but that's an issue with any All-in-one system. The iMac is great value in this marketplace. Sadly there are no Macs in the enthusiast performance value marketplace, so it will always get dissed on techy websites.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By glitchc on 4/28/2008 5:08:18 PM , Rating: 2
That doesn't make any sense. How can you upgrade to any kind of next-gen memory without upgrading the mobo and consequently the processor as well?

Mobo, proc, mem, HD. Throw in a discrete vid card if you moved from PCI to AGP or from AGP to PCI-E. Heck, you can even stick with the integrated one and you've essentially "upgraded" your vid card. Can't even count the NIC if you transfer it over since they are now embedded on-board.

Sounds like a completely new PC to me.


By afkrotch on 4/29/2008 12:11:41 PM , Rating: 2
I think what he means is he went to Dell, HP, Gateway, etc to "build" his dream pc. From then, all he did was add more memory or a larger hard drive for his upgrades.

My move to PCI-E had me replacing mobo, proc, vidcard, memory, and PSU.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By Dug on 4/28/08, Rating: -1
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 7:09:04 PM , Rating: 3
Posting comments like that is the quickest way to get -1 rating on DT forums, so be careful. Apple bashers usually get the rating of 5 here, so if you wanna repair your low rating - just start bashing Apple and you'll get your rating close to 5 in no time.


By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 8:45:50 PM , Rating: 2
You've probably never used vista. You rant about it and none of the stuff you say makes sense, because all that junk you talk about you don't have to do with the exception of malware protection. And what do you have against people who want to be able to play computer games without having 2 OS's on their computer? I personally enjoy playing (and modding.) Counter-Strike, and Halo 2 occasionally. And if what you say about the requirements of building a computer is true, then you truly suck at building computers. Truly. You take up an entire fail boat and sink in to the depths of failure beyond failure.

The point of building a machine is to customize it the way you want. You spend too much time on Apple's My first OS (thank you to whoever first posted that.) and not enough time thinking: "if I don't want this, why should I pay extra money for it?" Or: "If I suck at building computers, and this one was loud and clunky and big, does that mean a computer built by a competent person who reads part reviews on noise levels will be the same?" or "If I plan to upgrade sometime in my computers life-span, should I get a power source that can handle a little extra?"

You make me sad.


By rdeegvainl on 4/29/2008 8:10:13 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
And soon I'll be able to upgade it. But wait the new video card requires a new power supply, and a new motherboard.


LOL, at least it doesn't require a whole new computer.


RE: Have to love the Mac business model
By androticus on 4/28/2008 11:19:28 PM , Rating: 1
Nonsense. These days, there is very little to anything a typical user will need to upgrade in the machine itself for its lifetime. Everything fun plugs in now via USB. And the two things you might want to upgrade, memory or disk, are upgradeable on a Mac. I upgraded the disk in my Macbook without too much fuss. (It was far easier than it would have been trying to do with a Windows box.)

Having a simple product line with minimal expansion capability is a FEATURE not a negative.


By afkrotch on 4/29/2008 1:52:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And the two things you might want to upgrade, memory or disk, are upgradeable on a Mac.


Ya right. Only things I hear ppl wanting to upgrade is cpu or gpu. Memory or hard drive isn't enough a thought, as they use externals and don't seem to even care what amount of memory they have.

Did they finally make enough room to fit a memory stick (with heatspreaders) into the slot?

quote:
Having a simple product line with minimal expansion capability is a FEATURE not a negative.


LOL!!!!!!!

Might as well give the iMac a slower processor, less memory, slower hard drive with less storage, onboard graphics, and a 3 inch screen and say it's best feature is that runs cool, uses 40 watts of power at full load, and fits in your buttcrack.

That's the dumbest feature I have ever heard. Maybe cause it's not one and it is a negative.


Camry Demographic
By aliasfox on 4/28/2008 4:02:07 PM , Rating: 4
I guess nobody on dailtytech thinks that there's even a *small* part of the market that buys a computer, uses it as-is for 2-5 years, and then gets another one? Nobody thinks that market exists?

And nobody on dailytech thinks that most of the computer market's kind of like most of the cell phone market?

I'm betting that if the same demographic went and bought a Dell XPS box, they'd never put another HDD in. Or a faster GPU.

People who post on dailytech are like people who drive modded Mustangs (or Camaros) - they know what goes into the computer, and they're fairly certain of what results should come out, and they're willing to deal with tinkering with the car to get the best performance out of it. People who buy iMacs are people who buy Camrys - they don't give a crap what happens under the hood, and they don't care that they could get signficantly better performance for the price - to them the lack of hassle and the reputation of "plug and play" (for both brands) outweigh the extra cost and the lower overall performance per dollar.

Not to mention the iMac takes less space, less power, and much quieter.




RE: Camry Demographic
By FITCamaro on 4/28/2008 4:07:44 PM , Rating: 1
Because its far better to be ignorant and spend more, than be informed and spend less. At least thats what our society is teaching these days. Don't learn anything for yourself. Let someone else do it.


RE: Camry Demographic
By Doormat on 4/28/2008 4:25:33 PM , Rating: 5
Because everyone has the time to learn, in-depth, how computers work, down to the silicon? Why don't we require electrical engineering classes before people can own one? Or a mechanical engineering (the vehicle) and civil engineering (roads/traffic) degree to drive a car?

Look, people just want to check email and surf the web. Just like some people want to get in a car, turn the key and go somewhere. They don't need to be an encyclopedia of knowledge about the product to use it. Its a tool. I don't need to know how a hammer is made to put a nail into a wall.


RE: Camry Demographic
By TomZ on 4/28/2008 4:45:35 PM , Rating: 1
Your analogy overstates what it takes to upgrade computers today. Most upgrades are accessable to anyone with working knowledge of a screwdriver and few minutes of time. People might lack confidence, but the actual skills required are well within most people's reach.

In fact, my six-year-old son does some of my upgrades now. He doesn't really know what he's doing, but since he lacks any fear of messing up, it's no problem for him to swap out memory, change a video card, etc.


RE: Camry Demographic
By AlphaVirus on 4/28/2008 5:29:27 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Most upgrades are accessable to anyone with working knowledge of a screwdriver

Heck, most computers dont have a single screw in them (except for the motherboard) nowadays, everything is clips, buttons, and hand-capable screws.

Honestly, ANYONE can upgrade a PC, its easier than teaching ABC's and 123's. Its comparible to putting the colored shapes in their corresponding shape.

Blue square goes in the blue square, it wont fit in the triangle or circle.
Ram will not fit in a PCI, PCIe, or AGP slot.
A CPU chip is the only part that is squared, so thats simple enough.

Need hookups in the back, everything is colorcoded, simple enough aye?

The ease of upgrading is as simple as wanting to upgrade.


RE: Camry Demographic
By Baov on 4/29/2008 12:09:34 AM , Rating: 2
Totally agree. Even a man that can't spell accessible can upgrade his computer, so can you. :P


RE: Camry Demographic
By aliasfox on 4/28/2008 4:46:04 PM , Rating: 2
It's sad but true. Then again, that's what every market evolves towards. For example: did you build your own furniture (picking the right wood, designing it to your height, etc), or did you just buy from a furniture store? I'm sure there're other markets that have evolved the same way.

If someone's going to buy a computer and *never* touch the insides, why get a box that takes up the extra space? Especially true for someone who is in a dorm (and wants a big screen) and needs to set-up/tear down their computer on a yearly basis (if not more).

If a person wants a quiet computer out of the box without having to research Noctua or Thermaltake or Zalman fans and coolers, this is a good option - SPCR said that one of the previous iMacs was one of the quietest actively cooled computers they've seen.

Want to be able to do basic music/photo library work out of the box? Not a bad choice.

I'm sure 24 years ago people were also saying that while Windows was easier to use than DOS, it was less functional, added cost, and would never/should never have a foothold in the market.


RE: Camry Demographic
By lightfoot on 4/28/2008 5:09:43 PM , Rating: 2
Unfortunately your comparison is close, but not quite right. The Mac demographic isn't just the ones who don't build their own computer, they are the ones who don't know how to SHOP for a computer. They want it to "just work." Guess what? Even an Eee PC will "just work." Dells, HPs, and Linux "just work" when you buy them.

The only thing that Apple gets you is that when you buy the bed, you don't have to put sheets on it. They just force you to buy the shiny satin sheets hand woven by hungry children in India and priced like they are gold. Heaven forbid that you might have to put sheets on the bed when you get it home! Oh, and Apple doesn't let you change the sheets (battery) - you have to take it to the shop and pay a service charge for that.


RE: Camry Demographic
By THEiNTERNETS on 4/28/2008 7:56:48 PM , Rating: 2
"Oh, and Apple doesn't let you change the sheets (battery) - you have to take it to the shop and pay a service charge for that."

No. I'm sorry. This is just plainly untrue.

I changed the battery on my laptop after a ten minute phonecall to Applecare. I had a prepaid shipping box on my front door the next morning with a brand new battery in it. All I had to do was put my old battery in the box and ship it back to them (prepaid so I pay nothing.) All this cost me ZERO. $0.00 for the new battery plus $0.00 in shipping and handling plus a $0.00 restocking/RMA fee plus a $0.00 service charge.

No hassle and my computer was good as new in under twelve hours!

I got this computer for a grand with my education discount and I can't say I'm disappointed. It's the best damn laptop I've ever used.

But go ahead. Keep hatin.


RE: Camry Demographic
By TomZ on 4/28/2008 8:11:43 PM , Rating: 2
What other types of laptops have you owned, to which you could compare your experience?


RE: Camry Demographic
By THEiNTERNETS on 4/28/2008 8:42:11 PM , Rating: 2
I owned an IBM thinkpad t40 (back when it was IBM) previously which was quite a good capable little machine and it lasted me for a little over the first three years of college. Towards the end it was getting terribly slow because I'd filled up most of its measly hard drive, and the thinkpad bloatware was not a bonus in any sense of the word - getting it off the machine was a hassle.

I've also used other manufacturer's laptops (Acer, Dell, HP, etc.) at various times between now and then including even the newer Lenovo thinkpads (my dad's a PC guy) and I can say unequivocally that Mac experience has been better overall. I have a faster, smoother, quieter system than all of the laptops I have used to date. It runs silently with no hiccups and six+ programs open simultaneously (and by this I mean no perceptible chug performing tasks or switching between programs - I absolutely hate having even a brief pauses to "think" during multitasking, very distracting.)

I would probably be quite curious for the Eee PC except that the screen real estate is simply unacceptable to me and the hard drive size is downright insulting. SSDs are overrated right now.

Finally, there's the difference between GUIs from OS X to XP. While XP is capable, and I stress that, OS X simply blows it out of the water. There are a thousand tiny details I could get into about how this OS is organized and navigated as compared to XP but that would be a whole article... I can say that the multitude of actions I can perform in so many different simple but reliable ways (expose, keyboard shortcuts, quicksilver added shortcuts, multi-touch scrolling and clicking, universal search with spotlight, etc.) really put a shame to XP's navigating and organizing functions. Quite simply, OS X is better organized and functioning when it comes to its GUI.

I'll be curious to see how Vista compares, but given what I've seen (the rolodex, *gag*) and what I've read about it thus far, I'm not expecting anything revolutionary, simply a prettier XP with a few new functions littered around the menus.

To be clear, I'm not a "mac fanboy;" I've been using PCs for years, and I still do from time to time. But I honestly believe you are getting a better deal on a basic-model MacBook or MBP right now than any other laptop out there. And obviously, my experience with Apple's support team has been glowing.


RE: Camry Demographic
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 9:07:13 PM , Rating: 2
I'll be replacing the battery in my macbook asap. You should try vista before gagging, and never trust any review except your own. Reviews for OS's are horribly misleading. I've been using OS panther since 03' on a macbook, and was unsatisfied because I couldn't game or program on it, and then switched to a dell XPS in January 08' and fell in love with vista . Before that I have a bunch of computers with old operating systems of both windows and macintosh.I only use XP for auto-CAD, and I'm not that impressed with it either. I like 2000 and OS 9.4 a bunch, and Ubuntu is pretty fun to use. Of course, it all depends on what you're looking for. :)


RE: Camry Demographic
By afkrotch on 4/29/2008 2:06:29 PM , Rating: 2
I think he's specifically talking about the Air, which doesn't have a user replaceable battery.


RE: Camry Demographic
By afkrotch on 4/29/2008 2:04:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's sad but true. Then again, that's what every market evolves towards. For example: did you build your own furniture (picking the right wood, designing it to your height, etc), or did you just buy from a furniture store? I'm sure there're other markets that have evolved the same way.

If someone's going to buy a computer and *never* touch the insides, why get a box that takes up the extra space? Especially true for someone who is in a dorm (and wants a big screen) and needs to set-up/tear down their computer on a yearly basis (if not more).

If a person wants a quiet computer out of the box without having to research Noctua or Thermaltake or Zalman fans and coolers, this is a good option - SPCR said that one of the previous iMacs was one of the quietest actively cooled computers they've seen.

Want to be able to do basic music/photo library work out of the box? Not a bad choice.

I'm sure 24 years ago people were also saying that while Windows was easier to use than DOS, it was less functional, added cost, and would never/should never have a foothold in the market.


And if you pay attention to the market, no one wants a desktop. Everyone wants a laptop and it shows. Desktop sales are declining, while laptop sales are increasing. It's also easier to setup. Pull out of bag, plug in power. Viola, working.


RE: Camry Demographic
By aliasfox on 4/29/2008 3:52:17 PM , Rating: 2
Pull out of box, plug in power. Sounds *exactly* like the imac.

Except unlike a laptop, you get a bigger screen, bigger HD, and don't have to pay for the battery or have bad ergonomics.

You're only helping me prove my point that this is what the market's evolving towards. Take my parents for example - my dad has a Thinkpad T42 - 5 lbs, 14" screen, an inch and a half thick, with 4+ hours of battery when new. The thing never left his desk, and he complained about his back hurting until we ended up getting him an external keyboard. Or my mom, with a Macbook - 5 lbs, 13" screen - it never leaves her desk, and she complains that the screen's too small. Wouldn't something like the iMac be beneficial to them? Very little of the expansion that a tower has, but then again, almost none of that hassle, either.


RE: Camry Demographic
By jlips6 on 4/29/2008 4:58:39 PM , Rating: 2
I hate to break this to you pal,(I'm not your pal, guy!) but Any PC with a pre-installed OS will work out of the box too. Like mine did. Setup time was equal to boot-up time + the time it took me to enter in my account name. All my software was pre-installed and It was working within a minute.


RE: Camry Demographic
By aliasfox on 4/30/2008 11:01:29 AM , Rating: 2
i was referring to the comment above me about a laptop (any laptop) that works without setup, and how an imac has the exact same benefit in that regard.

i'm well aware that all OEMs come "ready to run," but when you work with people who're scared of plugging speakers into a headphone jack, you realize that the simplicity of *truly* pulling something out of the box and plugging in three plugs (power, keyboard, mouse)is very helpful for them.


RE: Camry Demographic
By psychobriggsy on 4/28/2008 5:09:28 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah, and you can spend the time to research all of this stuff when you're a student or jobless.

Once you're past a certain age, you stop caring. You can afford the extra $250, but you can't spare 10 hours reading up on all the latest computer components, and then dealing with the OS install, and more.

What do people want? Out of the box operation. A warranty in case it goes wrong. A decent configuration out of the box. A nice look to fit in their house, or a small form factor for their computer corner. They don't want to research different power supplies, and fans, and CPUs, and GPUs, and motherboards, and what features they need, and cases, and hard drives, and memory, and keyboards, and mice, and monitors, and cables, and speakers.

We make the time, it's our hobby and interest. We keep on top with an hour or two a day browsing the web, reading reviews, etc.

Ignorant - doing no research.
Sensible - researching what has good reviews and happy consumer ratings. Apple has these, and they look nice. I can't fault this buying logic in any way.
Enthusiast - 10+ hours a week.


RE: Camry Demographic
By lightfoot on 4/28/2008 5:19:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Sensible - researching what has good reviews and happy consumer ratings. Apple has these, and they look nice. I can't fault this buying logic in any way.


I can fault it. Sensible is having a clue about how much something should cost. You don't buy a Ferrari just because it got a higher review (or better 0-60) than a boring old BMW. Any "sensible" shopper will have a price range and comparison shop. Sometimes Apple does well under this scenario - but rarely.


RE: Camry Demographic
By lightfoot on 4/28/2008 5:23:24 PM , Rating: 2
Of course sometimes you just want a Ferrari, and nothing else will do.


RE: Camry Demographic
By aliasfox on 4/28/2008 5:45:10 PM , Rating: 2
And sometimes, performance isn't a factor. Does it really matter if one car gets 0-60 in 8 seconds and the other one does it in 5? In regular driving, no. Consumers are as liable to look at passenger room/comfort, fuel economy, ease of living with it, etc.

Same thing with the iMac vs more-powerful computers at the same price. Whether or not you care to admit it, a dual core 2.4 GHz (or whatever the entry level iMac comes with) is more than powerful enough for anything the vast majority of the populace will regularly throw at it. Hell, 3 years ago there wasn't a single-processor computer on the market that would be faster, and the masses did perfectly fine.

As with cars, there are other dimensions besides performance - that's why the Camry outsells the Mustang, even though the Mustang's the same price and faster.

Looking at one metric as the be-all-end-all for a product (MHz, 0-60, megapixels, etc) is the easiest way to fall into the marketer's trap. If you look at the entire product in the proper context it will be used for, the iMac does very well for the average home environment.


RE: Camry Demographic
By afkrotch on 4/29/2008 2:28:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you look at the entire product in the proper context it will be used for, the iMac does very well for the average home environment.


So would a cheap $300 Dell.


RE: Camry Demographic
By aliasfox on 4/29/2008 4:05:58 PM , Rating: 2
Not if you take into account that the $300 Dell takes up more space, uses more power, and is louder - three things that the average home computer user won't like and/or won't be able to solve. Tell the average Mom/teenage girl/man with a non-computing job that he can replace the power supply and on-board fans with something quieter, and they'll immediately go glassy eyed on you.


RE: Camry Demographic
By jlips6 on 4/29/2008 5:09:15 PM , Rating: 2
you left me out! :( (teenage boy)

and a starting macbook is $1100 for 2.1GHz dual core, 1gb of ram at 667mhz , and a 120 GB 5400RPM hard drive. It's also 13" so the keyboard will naturally suck, and it comes with none of the software apple advertises besides the OS, and no warranty. That pretty much sucks. It doesn't say the weight on the apple web site, but it's 1.08in thick. Not bad style in other words, everything else is crap. I don't get how it uses less power though. Care to explain?


RE: Camry Demographic
By aliasfox on 4/30/2008 11:16:21 AM , Rating: 2
I was referring to the iMac against a $300 Dell desktop.

As for the MacBook - give the keyboard a try, it's actually full-size and very usable. I like the keyboard on my PowerBook better (and the keyboard on my work Compaq isn't any worse, to tell the truth), but it's properly sized and has good tactile feedback.

It comes with the iLife software that Apple advertises - there's a reason Apple has stores, so people can go in and play around with their products and not spout uninformed opinions.

5.2 lbs, 1.08 inches thick - it really is kind of heavy for its size, but it feels quite sturdy, and some features (like the magnetic latch, magsafe, and the locking battery compartment) only help that opinion - though I'm sure Apple could come up with a better battery-lock than having to use a quarter (it's a pain to pull out the battery if you don't have change on you).

Power - also iMac (and iMac style) computer vs a tower setup. If we assume the screen and HD take the same power, then we're left with CPU, GPU, motherboard, and cooling (I think those are the main power draws). Considering the CPU and GPU are laptop variants, they definitely should use lower power, and with no extra slots on the motherboard, I'm sure power draw is reduced there, as well. Lower power usage = less heat, meaning that lower power cooling methods could be considered - though that last one is purely hypothetical.

It seems like we're arguing multiple arguments at the same time:

a) Mac vs PC - I'm generally leaving that free for whoever wants to argue it

b) All-in-one form factor vs Tower - This is what I was arguing in this thread - limited expansion for people who don't need expansion is a good thing, with various other fringe benefits.

c) desktop vs laptop, where the iMac merges the benefit of a laptop (all-in-one box, lower power, smaller space requirements, marginally better portability/setup) with some of the benefits of a desktop (larger, brighter screen, better ergonomics, bigger HD).


RE: Camry Demographic
By aliasfox on 4/28/2008 5:23:57 PM , Rating: 2
I like the way you broke it down - ignorant, sensible, and enthusiast. Then again, they're not all mutually exclusive - there're people who're are enthusiasts but fail to consider the entire market, and there are sensible people who end up researching their purchases obsessively (like an enthusiast), but end up with the wrong conclusions and buy like someone who's ignorant.


RE: Camry Demographic
By Reclaimer77 on 4/28/2008 5:36:44 PM , Rating: 2
I think the OP has it backwards. The Camry is a MUCH smarter buy than a Mustang or Camaro. If anything in your analogy is a PC, its the Camry.

I built my own PC, but believe it or not I'm not constantly " tinkering " with it. Well, I don't know, define tinkering. Last month I added a 500gig HDD because my 320gig was getting too full of media. Oh god, let me tell you, spending that 5 whole minutes installing that HDD is totally as much work as dropping a new engine in a muscle car. After I was done crawling out from under my PC case, with oil dripping all over me, I decided right then and there that next time I would buy an entire new PC for those 500 gigs instead of doing it myself ! I think I'm starting to see the light, thanks Mac guy !

/sarcasm off


RE: Camry Demographic
By aliasfox on 4/28/2008 5:48:55 PM , Rating: 3
How many of that sensible Camry-buying public bothers to change their own - hell, CHECK their own oil?

Or when something goes wrong - do they bother diagnosing it themselves? No, they call up the dealer, bring it in, and have someone else fix it.

Same thing here. Something goes wrong, walk over to the Apple Store and have them solve the problem for you.

Behavior-wise, it's the same thing.


RE: Camry Demographic
By Reclaimer77 on 4/28/2008 6:48:13 PM , Rating: 2
Yes but you can buy a regular PC with a service and warranty plan too. The OP is trying to make PC's synonymous with " toiling and tinkering " and thats just not the case.


RE: Camry Demographic
By aliasfox on 4/28/2008 8:20:26 PM , Rating: 2
Sure, you could buy a regular PC with a warranty, and If you're buying a computer you might eventually upgrade, then you might want a computer with extra space inside to install stuff. But if you're never going to put more than crumbs and dust inside your computer (like most of the public), your options in terms of size and shape open up quite a bit - an iMac is an example of that, as are the Mac Mini, Dell XPS One (is that what it's called?), and Shuttle PCs.


RE: Camry Demographic
By Scott66 on 4/28/2008 8:34:41 PM , Rating: 2
I would just buy a large external HD and plug it in. And then I would have more space and a real time back up with my imac, just by clicking OK when it asks me if I want to use the external drive for Time Machine. Or I could say no.

Let's see your new Windows HDD do that?


RE: Camry Demographic
By Reclaimer77 on 4/29/2008 12:59:08 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah cause there aren't 50 programs available for the PC that can do the exact same thing " Time Machine " does. And most of them probably better.

Just because you like some bundled software with your OS, don't assume its the only platform that can do it.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/timemachine.h...

Compared to

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/setup/lea...

So my 5+ year old OS, Windows XP, comes native with a backup utility complete with custom scheduler. Am I supposed to be impressed with Time Machine now ? Oh thats right, setting it up in Windows takes about 5 more mouse clicks. So its not as sleek and intuitive ( i.e dummy proof ) as Time Machine.

A little known fact to you Apple fanbois is that most " cool " stuff on your Mac's was actually developed by a company Apple bought then promptly cancels the Windows version of the software. I'm sure " Time Machine " is based off somebody else's technology that was bought up anyway.

So please. There are several strong points about the Mac you could of brought up. But features and flexibility over the Pc ? You can't win that one.


RE: Camry Demographic
By jlips6 on 4/29/2008 5:15:34 PM , Rating: 2
this becomes a problem in a case like mine, where you try to use time machine on an existing external hard drive, because they don't mention this, but time machine requires you delete EVERYTHING on your drive that you currently have saved. Time machine is good once it's going, (to my knowleadge.) but don't worry, it makes up for that with it's infuriating un-intuitive way that it sorts files it backs up, almost randomly. I had to stop my dad from hitting the mac-book. I don't think that anything apple advertises is worthwhile *coughcoverflowcough*, but they sure know how to make people who never used it think it's awesome.


RE: Camry Demographic
By afkrotch on 4/29/2008 2:26:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yeah, and you can spend the time to research all of this stuff when you're a student or jobless.

Once you're past a certain age, you stop caring. You can afford the extra $250, but you can't spare 10 hours reading up on all the latest computer components, and then dealing with the OS install, and more.

What do people want? Out of the box operation. A warranty in case it goes wrong. A decent configuration out of the box. A nice look to fit in their house, or a small form factor for their computer corner. They don't want to research different power supplies, and fans, and CPUs, and GPUs, and motherboards, and what features they need, and cases, and hard drives, and memory, and keyboards, and mice, and monitors, and cables, and speakers.

We make the time, it's our hobby and interest. We keep on top with an hour or two a day browsing the web, reading reviews, etc.

Ignorant - doing no research.
Sensible - researching what has good reviews and happy consumer ratings. Apple has these, and they look nice. I can't fault this buying logic in any way.
Enthusiast - 10+ hours a week.


Why are ppl comparing an OEM to user built? There are other OEMs out there. Dell, HP, Gateway (MPC), Emachines, VoodooPC, Alienware, etc.

If I was lazy and had tons of cash, I'd have VoodooPC make me something. It'd be the exact same items I could get from building it myself, all the while providing me with cool looks, upgradeability, single warranty, or so forth.

Another thing, who's going to be buying a new computer if they are jobless? I think that would be the last thought on their mind. Students tend to go with lowest costs, unless their suckle on mama's teet still. It ends up being some cheap $300-$500 desktop from Dell or HP.


RE: Camry Demographic
By aliasfox on 4/29/2008 4:13:22 PM , Rating: 2
With most of the models from most of those brands, you still don't have the same size or power benefit that you get with an iMac - and the models that do (Dell XPS One, Gateway... whatever it was called) are "me too" products that cost at least as much.

Power or ultimate level of performance isn't on everybody's wish list. I have (list price) a nearly $5000 home theater because I appreciate good audio-visual quality, and it was worth it to me to have a receiver, a DVD player, a computer, and speakers set-up around the room. One of my best friends doesn't want to have that kind of aesthetic, level of work, or power draw, and for him the sound coming out of his TV is adequate. For most people, the performance of an iMac is adequate - especially for those benefits that I have listed above.


RE: Camry Demographic
By jlips6 on 4/29/2008 5:40:24 PM , Rating: 2
it's clear you know little about this. STOP. education time.

gateways are known for being cheap, not stylish.

http://alienware.com/Configurator_Pages/area-51_75...
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/A...

compare the two. They are on entirely different levels, for exactly the same price.

So I guess your only argument left is the space it takes up. Some people will live with sub-par parts and high prices and no cooling system for a couple extra inches of desk space. That's their choice, but I personally can't condone it.

And since you bring up the "me too" aspect of all this, alienware was founded in 1997, before mac went for all the style and glamor it has today. So I guess that's one more ignorant insult we can get rid of.


RE: Camry Demographic
By aliasfox on 4/30/2008 11:23:45 AM , Rating: 2
space - not everybody wants a tower, especially if they have to work to get it not to make noise.

setup - the general public is intimidated by setting something up that's more involved than a toaster (see: all the jokes about setting up a VCR)

power requirements - i referred to this in a previous response to you.

i know there're lots of midpriced towers out there that have a price/performance ratio better than the iMac. But many people don't need that much power, and would rather have simplicity - it's not something you need to condone, it's a fact of life, and the iMac caters to this market.


RE: Camry Demographic
By hiscross on 4/28/2008 10:51:51 PM , Rating: 2
I take it by reading the post by windows users that day care got out early today. Personally I don't give a rats ass what you people think of macs. I do hope the day care people that change your diapers give you people less coke and more sleep time in the future.


RE: Camry Demographic
By Reclaimer77 on 4/29/2008 1:01:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I take it by reading the post by windows users that day care got out early today.


This coming from someone representing a consumer base that actually prides itself on being spoon fed by a corporation for a prohibitive fee ?

Oh sweet irony.


RE: Camry Demographic
By jlips6 on 4/29/2008 5:44:04 PM , Rating: 2
It's kinda funny, but I enjoy this comment, and would urge more like it. The whole THIS IS MY OPINION, WHAT I WANT, AND NO-ONE TELL ME I SHOULD GET ANYTHING ELSE THEY SAY IS BETTER resonates well. Same message, different sides of the message board.


RE: Camry Demographic
By spluurfg on 4/29/2008 7:18:25 AM , Rating: 2
I don't do my taxes or iron my own shirts. Is it because society taught me to be ignorant and spend more? No, it's because I attach a value to the time I save and consider the trade-off worth it.


RE: Camry Demographic
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 5:36:43 PM , Rating: 2
Actually since Jobs hates fans, the iMac has a tendancy to overheat when idle, thus using more power. You have a point about the consumer market, but don't get in to a spec war. Have you ever used an iMac? They get so hot it's ridiculous. The ones at my library people use to warm their hands after being outside in the winter, and my grandma's can almost burn you if you run graphics intensive programs.


RE: Camry Demographic
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 5:48:17 PM , Rating: 2
Must be old G5 iMacs or something as old as this, maybe first Core Duos... anyway, this is not related to modern iMacs with low-heat 45nm mobile chips.


RE: Camry Demographic
By aliasfox on 4/28/2008 5:52:17 PM , Rating: 2
Actually it is - the Radeon 2600 Pro that Apple puts into these machines is actually a Radeon 2600 XT part, underclocked because the TDP of the case can't support the XT's speeds.

Sometimes Jobs' vision makes sense, other times he really should learn to sell what technology can support (while paying for R&D/looking for new tech elsewhere).


RE: Camry Demographic
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 6:15:27 PM , Rating: 2
This is no different than complaining that your hot quad-core-CPU-quad-9800GTX-SLI rig heats your whole apartment. So what? Big gaming PC heats apartment and small iMac can only heat someone's hands when it's under 100% load and when it's not the low end iMac with colder CPU/GPU. What's the point here? I guess jlips just wants to tell us that he hates it when quad-core SLI rigs heat big apartments. Is that what you're telling us, jlips?


RE: Camry Demographic
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 6:38:26 PM , Rating: 2
You haven't used a iMac, have you? I did say in my post that these can only run the catalog program which is actually hosted by the AADL server, not the computer at all, and they still overheat. They essentially overheat at idle is my point. I have no idea where you pulled your 100% load thing, or your quad-core argument.


RE: Camry Demographic
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 6:51:39 PM , Rating: 2
looking back I see that I didn't say the computers could only run the catalog program, but regardless, your 100% claim is still of shaky ground and into the toilet.


RE: Camry Demographic
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 7:16:28 PM , Rating: 2
So what if some old G5 iMac was overheating? Older Prescott based PCs of the same era were also overheating in the same way. And your point is...?


RE: Camry Demographic
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 7:41:44 PM , Rating: 2
that Apple should a cooling system that involves something other than prayer. What sort of computers overheated on pentium IV in 06? I thought that was actually quite a stable processor, and it came out in 04, a different time frame for processors all together. Regardless, the technology in 06' easily runs a web browser now with no issues, it should not be overheating, especially when it's barely used.


RE: Camry Demographic
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 9:38:36 PM , Rating: 2
You should stick Prescott in a tiny thin case similar to iMac's, all together with monitor, PSU, GPU and HDD and THEN tell me about how cool and nice it is. Until you do that experiment - let me dismiss your claims. Thank you.

P.S. a litte hint for ya - think a little about how case size/volume affects termals

P.P.S. by the way do you still think you can stick any DDR2 modules in Mac Pro, not only the FBDIMM ones? This relates to our old discussion from last month where you tried to compare your Mac Pro clone and asked me why the heck I decided to go for those expensive FBDIMM modules instead of your cheapo non-buffered ones. Just checking if your knowledge of hardware is on the same level as back then ;-)


RE: Camry Demographic
By afkrotch on 4/29/2008 2:49:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You should stick Prescott in a tiny thin case similar to iMac's, all together with monitor, PSU, GPU and HDD and THEN tell me about how cool and nice it is. Until you do that experiment - let me dismiss your claims. Thank you.


They did. It was called a gaming laptop. A lot of companies used desktop Prescott cpus in gaming laptops. They ran hot as fck, but they ran without trouble.


RE: Camry Demographic
By jlips6 on 4/29/2008 5:51:13 PM , Rating: 2
It would be a lot cooler than you think if there was an actual cooling system. You are arguing that what I find wrong with the system is okay, because the other things you consider attributes that I clearly don't care about cancel what I don't like out. Strange logic.

PS. thermals from the case size is exactly what I have been arguing about from the beggining of this thread. And you just now think that up? wow. you are a genius.

P.P.S That was 2 months ago, and if you check the thread, you will find I had the last word. Go change it if you want. I don't care.


RE: Camry Demographic
By Pirks on 4/30/2008 7:18:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It would be a lot cooler than you think if there was an actual cooling system
And it would be a lot thicker and heavier as well


RE: Camry Demographic
By aliasfox on 4/28/2008 8:35:37 PM , Rating: 4
Actually, it was the current as of yesterday iMac that had the problem with the ATi Radeon 2600 Pro chips.

I have a few Macs, and trust me, Apple's consistently cut thermals close:
- 12" PowerBook is hot to the touch after limited use
- Power Mac Cube never made it past 500 MHz because faster chips were too hot
- First Gen MacBook Pros had fans on the majority of the time - Yonah was too hot for the 1" chassis.

So yeah, I'm not a PC guy, but I'm not going to blindly follow this religion either.


RE: Camry Demographic
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 9:12:04 PM , Rating: 2
thank you for your refreshing opinion without bull****.


RE: Camry Demographic
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 6:34:31 PM , Rating: 2
My grandma's is old, I have no idea how old the library ones are but I think we got them last year and I 100% know we got them within the last 2 years. I can't even check the specs because they're locked in the catalog program. I'll try to break it the next time I go.


RE: Camry Demographic
By UNCjigga on 4/28/2008 5:53:27 PM , Rating: 2
LOL, you expect Dailytech readers to acknowledge that their dream-PC, new-build-every-6-month, gotta-have-latest-gen-ATI/Nvidia-graphics selves are only 5% of the market! Shame on you! :)


RE: Camry Demographic
By larson0699 on 5/2/2008 5:19:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not to mention the iMac takes less space, less power, and much quieter.
Oh, like the laptop it's designed after? In 2006 I had a stock Gateway with Athlon X2, GeForce 6100 IGP, and 250GB HDD, threw in a XG MAGNUM power supply for the Radeon I was about to get, and it displayed to be drawing 62 to 68 Watts at idle (went up about 20 or so after the card). I mean, that was back in the day. 90 nanometers and desktop guts.

To say that the PC isn't green like an Apple is absurd. Sure, their figure includes the screen, but even that is easily achievable on this side.

I know that wasn't the main idea of your post.

But only an idiot buys a Camry on looks. And the computer/car analogies are PLAYED THE F OUT on here. They are the poorest means of making a point.

I am in agreement with FITCamaro. Our economy THRIVES on people with as much money as their heads are hollow. It really doesn't matter what you buy so long as you spend too much!


Welcome to 2006!
By Screwballl on 4/28/2008 3:40:50 PM , Rating: 3
Need a new video card?
Option A: Spend $3000 on a new Mac
Option B: Spend $200-400 for a new card for any other OS

Apple needs to get with the times




RE: Welcome to 2006!
By rowcroft on 4/28/2008 3:47:57 PM , Rating: 4
People that need a new video card before they need a new system are not the target market for the iMac.


RE: Welcome to 2006!
By Brazos on 4/28/2008 4:03:34 PM , Rating: 2
Need a new video card?
You should have bought a Mac Pro. Apple has upgrades for the video cards in them.
Upgrading a iMac makes as much sense as upgrading the video card in your laptop (except of course Alienware laptops and some others) It's not a common thing.
Think of the iMac as a laptop on a stand.


RE: Welcome to 2006!
By scavio on 4/28/2008 4:24:34 PM , Rating: 4
So I get all the shortcomings of a laptop without any of the benefits? Where do I sign up?


RE: Welcome to 2006!
By Brazos on 4/28/2008 5:12:34 PM , Rating: 2
I would never buy an iMac for my self. But there's some folks I know who love them. They probably don't know how useful a laptop really is.


RE: Welcome to 2006!
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 5:13:19 PM , Rating: 2
Why smaller size is not a benefit?


RE: Welcome to 2006!
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 5:52:57 PM , Rating: 2
is a iMac smaller than a laptop? No. Benefit gone.


RE: Welcome to 2006!
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 6:22:04 PM , Rating: 2
Is iMac smaller than typical Wintel desktop? Yes. Benefit is not gone.


RE: Welcome to 2006!
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 6:39:34 PM , Rating: 2
Quick update, we aren't talking about those. If you want to, then you lose every other benefit besides size known to man.


RE: Welcome to 2006!
By Screwballl on 4/30/2008 12:49:51 PM , Rating: 2
"wintel" has not been a useful term for at least a decade, so to you I say "Welcome to 2008, now stop using those terms since your precious Macs are now 'Mactel'"... At least with other Windows and linux systems you have a choice: Intel, AMD, VIA.... and then ATI or nvidia... and then Creative, onboard, Asus... and then Gigabyte, Asus, evga, Biostar, ECS to name a few...

Take a non-Mac based SFF (small formfactor) system and you can install a low profile PCI or miniPCI card to extend its function.
Can't do that with a Mactel or IBMac


RE: Welcome to 2006!
By Reclaimer77 on 4/28/2008 5:11:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Apple has upgrades for the video cards in them.


Yeah a whole two or three to choose from. And probably not the ones you want.

And lets not get started on sound cards...


RE: Welcome to 2006!
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 5:43:22 PM , Rating: 2
mac pro is a good, upgradeable computer, just don't get the upgrades from apple. I still don't get why they discontinued the G4 though.


RE: Welcome to 2006!
By afkrotch on 4/29/2008 2:54:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Need a new video card?
You should have bought a Mac Pro. Apple has upgrades for the video cards in them.
Upgrading a iMac makes as much sense as upgrading the video card in your laptop (except of course Alienware laptops and some others) It's not a common thing.
Think of the iMac as a laptop on a stand.


Too bad you are locked into only a handful of vidcards, since Apple has a stranglehold on what drivers end up on OSX.


8800GS... 192bit?
By Kougar on 4/28/2008 5:31:13 PM , Rating: 2
Just curious, but how does a 8800GS with a 192-bit wide memory bus actually get 512mb of RAM?

All the 8800GS cards I know ship with 384mb of RAM. ;)




RE: 8800GS... 192bit?
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 5:39:03 PM , Rating: 2
How about 8800GT with 32 stream processors disabled to get temps lower?


RE: 8800GS... 192bit?
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 6:02:12 PM , Rating: 2
the graphics card is a 8800GS though, so it's kind of a moot point to offer alternative options.


RE: 8800GS... 192bit?
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 6:30:38 PM , Rating: 2
What alterantive options?

I wasn't talking about any "alternative options". I was talking about the nVidia chip that's installed in the latest iMacs.

Please explain what do you mean.


RE: 8800GS... 192bit?
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 6:45:04 PM , Rating: 2
unless DT is wrong, you are talking about alternative options.

quote: Apple says that it is now offering the fastest graphics card ever available in an iMac -- and it’s not from ATI.
Customers can opt for an NVIDIA 8800 GS graphics card with 512MB of VRAM


RE: 8800GS... 192bit?
By borismkv on 4/28/2008 8:32:42 PM , Rating: 2
Shows how much you know. 8800GS is a cut rate 8800 card. It's the budget 8800. It costs 100 bucks. It's a piece of crap.


RE: 8800GS... 192bit?
By Alexstarfire on 4/29/2008 9:03:28 AM , Rating: 2
Wow, you and Jlips6 are stupid, though Jlips6 may just be kidding since he and Perks seem to just argue with each other. What Perks is trying to say is that while it may be an 8800GS, it may not be the SAME 8800GS that we can buy for our PC computers. He's suggesting that it's crappy 8800GTs that got renamed.


RE: 8800GS... 192bit?
By Pirks on 4/29/2008 1:20:24 PM , Rating: 2
thank you for your refreshing opinion without bull****


RE: 8800GS... 192bit?
By jlips6 on 4/30/2008 7:23:14 PM , Rating: 2
I wonder why you didn't post it.

That's what you were saying. yup. sure it was.


RE: 8800GS... 192bit?
By jlips6 on 4/30/2008 7:27:35 PM , Rating: 2
Awww... that's no fun. I can't really argue with that, because even though I can say: you have no proof! all day long, that goes the other way. So, in other words, this is an entirely conceptualized (but not quite out of the question) opinion where there is no posted information to disprove or prove it.

I sort of want to say you don't deserve an opinion though.


RE: 8800GS... 192bit?
By jlips6 on 4/30/2008 7:30:37 PM , Rating: 2
(Pirks, because he has no opinion and is just arguing about macs because of apple propaganda, and Alex because you ruined our fun.)


RE: 8800GS... 192bit?
By Kougar on 5/1/2008 3:48:55 PM , Rating: 2
# of stream processors has notthing to do with the width of the memory bus.

These cards feature a cut down 192-bit wide memory bus (instead of 256)... so how is it Apple gets a 512mb 8800GS? Are they not cut down parts anymore?


RE: 8800GS... 192bit?
By pmonti80 on 4/29/2008 7:11:18 AM , Rating: 2
It's probably a MOBILE 8800GS. The Desktop 8800GS has a 192bits bus and 384 or 768 MB or Ram and 96 shaders. The Mobile 8800GS has a 256bits bus and 512 MB of Ram and 64 shaders. It's equivalent on the Desktop is the 9600GT but with lower power.

If they can't fit a desktop CPU on the iMac the would never be able to fit a desktop GPU in there.


RE: 8800GS... 192bit?
By Kougar on 5/7/2008 3:05:26 PM , Rating: 2
Ah, thanks. Figured there was a simple explanation for it somewhere! ;)


Oh...wow...8800GS
By borismkv on 4/28/2008 4:20:08 PM , Rating: 2
That's like...blazing speed man.
*breaks up*
I can't do it. I can't say that with a straight face. My 8600GTS if faster than an 8800GS for crying out loud! This is a 100 dollar video card and it's the fastest thing in an iMac? Gimme a break. When's apple gonna start putting some real, quality, powerful hardware in their computers (Other than the CPU)?




RE: Oh...wow...8800GS
By Reclaimer77 on 4/28/2008 5:15:03 PM , Rating: 2
lol I agree. Actually, somehow, I didn't notice this was the GS when I first read the article.

quote:
When's apple gonna start putting some real, quality, powerful hardware in their computers (Other than the CPU)?


They can't in that form factor. Unless they plan on putting some fans in it, at which point, it won't be so " cool, hip, and quiet " anymore. Or they could just come with water cooling for a meager $600+ more. If that could even fit...


RE: Oh...wow...8800GS
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 5:19:42 PM , Rating: 2
Buying Xbox 360 and/or Wii will ease your pain :P


RE: Oh...wow...8800GS
By borismkv on 4/28/2008 6:16:16 PM , Rating: 2
Uhh...I'm not exactly in any pain right now. I have a really nice 800 dollar computer that I do *everything* on right now. Why would I want to go out and spend 400 bucks on a console *and* an additional 1500 bucks for an iMac that can do the crap that I actually use my computer for, cause frankly, I'm not to keen on the idea of using an XBox for web browsing, report writing, music, communicating with distant friends who don't have XBoxes, doing research, you know...all the stuff people do with computers...oh wait...I guess that blows away your "Only 400 dollars for a console vs. 1200 bucks for a gaming machine" argument. Don't forget that people still need an actual *computer* to do stuff with. So with your argument, at the very minimum I get a Mac mini for 600 bucks to do my computer stuff with plus a console for 400 bucks more, oh, and lets not forget the TV for a minimum of 100 bucks more (for a crappy SDTV), or 3-400 for an HDTV...damn...your suggestion is expensive...I think I'll stick with my 800 dollar Desktop with a 250 dollar widescreen and a 150 dollar 19" monitor. Oh, let's not forget the sound system...I'd have to get a 100 dollar speaker system for my XBox...oh and a *MONITOR* for the Mac Mini...damn...your Macs are expensive.

Yeah. I'm sticking with my PC...getting into your world would cost about 2 or 3 times as much when you figure in all the logistics of switching. I upgrade my computer every 3 years for 600 bucks, and I get to use the same monitor every time. It's great.


RE: Oh...wow...8800GS
By Pirks on 4/28/2008 6:46:54 PM , Rating: 2
There's no need to switch right away and buy everything in bulk. When it's time to upgrade your CP video card - you just buy a $280 Xbox 360 instead. Why spend $280 on a PC video card to get just a few PC video games for next year or so when you can spend same money on Xbox 360 and get dozens of great games for the next, say, 5 years? Here's your savings - buy console once and stop wasting money on PC video cards for 5 years - and that could be quite a sizable savings in 5 years.

Next time you gonna spend $600 on your PC hardware - just spend it on a Mac Mini, it'll do everything your console can't do, and your console will do the rest.

You can use either your monitors or HDTV to plug Xbox or Mini in, they all have HDMI/DVI you know.

See how simple it really is? ;)


RE: Oh...wow...8800GS
By borismkv on 4/28/2008 8:23:02 PM , Rating: 3
Uhh...and then I have to replace the XBox in three years and the Mac Mini in three years, because I can't stand having hardware longer than three years. It's still cheaper for me to keep upgrading at 600 bucks every 3 years. And I am *not* going to buy an XBox arcade. I'm sorry. That's even more of a waste of my money than a Mac would be for me. Let's not forget that console gaming on a 21 inch monitor straight up sucks.

Then I can't do dual monitor on the Mac Mini without a splitter of some kind, so let's add money for that as well. And I like dual monitor. It's very useful in my work. So the Mac mini won't really work for me.And I never spend 280 bucks on video cards. I go midrange, because I don't care about super high-end graphics, and because that's all I need. 160 bucks at most.

So I actually *have* to spend the 1200 dollars for an iMac or a Macbook, just so I can have dual monitors for my work. See, I can go through 2.5 upgrade *phases* (7.5 years) before your way is less costly. But then, if I got a Mac, I'd have to replace it about once every 5 years at least, so that's an additional 50% over the price of what my 2.5 upgrade phases cost me. And there's the fact that in 5 years, I'll definitely have to buy another console, which will probably be about 4-500 dollars at that point. Probably more. And furthermore, I'm a strategy gamer. Consoles don't do so well with strategy games. And I really hate Gamepads.
Trust me. I've already done the math Macs *will not* work for me. And if you really, seriously think that a Mac will work for *every* person, you are horribly mistake. There are still 92%+ of the computer users out there that have done similar math and decided that an Apple is simply not worth it. So maybe 1% of those people find out it works for them. It doesn't make Apples better computers. You can't argue about which OS is *better* because what is *better* is always subjective and based personal need. Much of OSX actually hinders my work, and it drives me crazy every time I have to use it.

Apple's *main* target is, quite simply, the computer user that gets completely frustrated with their computer every single day (much like yourself). Why else would they have those utterly moronic Mac vs PC adds? The fact of the matter is that the people who get completely frustrated by their computers are mainly victims of their own inability to deal with technology, and often cause the frustrations themselves without realizing it.


RE: Oh...wow...8800GS
By UNCjigga on 4/28/2008 5:57:32 PM , Rating: 2
They don't need anything faster--Mac users aren't gamers!


RE: Oh...wow...8800GS
By borismkv on 4/28/2008 8:37:07 PM , Rating: 2
But...but Apples are so good at doing graphical stuff! Seriously. I think it's hilarious that, while Pixar does make all its movies on Apples, it has to render them on HP branded PCs...


RE: Oh...wow...8800GS
By pxavierperez on 4/29/2008 7:20:47 AM , Rating: 1
Mainly because these HP pcs are nodes, meaning not used for anything else other than rendering slaves. So your point proves nothing.


RE: Oh...wow...8800GS
By jlips6 on 4/30/2008 7:16:55 PM , Rating: 2
besides that very small point that macs can't render graphics on their own.


RE: Oh...wow...8800GS
By pmonti80 on 4/29/2008 7:08:20 AM , Rating: 2
It's probably a MOBILE 8800GS. The Desktop 8800GS has a 192bits bus and 384 or 768 MB or Ram. The Mobile 8800GS has a 256bits bus and 512 MB of Ram. It's equivalent on the Desktop is the 9600GT but with lower power.
If they can't fit a desktop CPU on the iMac the would never be able to fit a desktop GPU in there.


My first iMac experience...
By 67STANG on 4/28/2008 3:32:21 PM , Rating: 2
I was hired at an industrial company to build a 30+ page catalog of their products and accessories. The computer they provided me with to do the work: an iMac.

Suprisingly it had PageMaker already installed on it and Photoshop too. I thought great, lets do this! I fired up Pagemaker, and created a blank template. I then opened a web browser to grab product descriptions off their website. An error message at that point popped up saying that the system was out of memory and that I needed to close 1 of the 2 programs I had open.

I had a new PC on my desk the next day.




RE: My first iMac experience...
By Nik00117 on 4/28/2008 3:48:43 PM , Rating: 2
Thats a good story, personally I don't like macs.

Lets see I got one main PC, which I use as a file server, gaming computer, video editing, photo editing, website design, linux admin, I have VM setup so I can run mutli OSes at the same. Recently my onboard sound went boom, 20 bucks later and one PCI slot it was fixed.

Mac? Pff, yea right.


RE: My first iMac experience...
By thornburg on 4/28/2008 3:57:37 PM , Rating: 2
This story is either VERY old or highly embellished.

Macs haven't had memory issues for ages, and, honestly, back in the Pentium days, a PC was just as likely to have memory issues as a Mac.

OTOH, it is possible that you didn't know how to use it correctly, as on Mac OS X you need to quit a program to actually close it (not just click the little x), so it may have asked you close one of the eight programs you had open, not two, even if those two were the only ones with active windows.

P.S. I don't know why I bother rebutting any anti-Mac argument on Dailytech, as it appears that the purpose of posting Mac related articles here is to let the Mac-haters have some fun bashing. Oh well.


RE: My first iMac experience...
By mikefarinha on 4/28/2008 4:08:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
P.S. I don't know why I bother rebutting any anti-Mac argument on Dailytech, as it appears that the purpose of posting Mac related articles here is to let the Mac-haters have some fun bashing. Oh well.


Everyone needs a release... the Mac just makes it easy :-)


RE: My first iMac experience...
By 67STANG on 4/28/2008 4:36:07 PM , Rating: 2
The story is mildly dated... this was in 2003. I've worked on Macs before this and don't have a problem working on one... I wasn't trying to close a program, I was trying to "multi-task" with 2 different programs at once. I was more than a bit suprised that it couldn't do that.


RE: My first iMac experience...
By psychobriggsy on 4/28/2008 5:01:04 PM , Rating: 2
Well if they give you a 128MB iMac G4 to do such work on, what do you expect in this day and age.

Either that, or you're lying your teeth off.


RE: My first iMac experience...
By jlips6 on 4/28/2008 5:58:05 PM , Rating: 2
i think that the phrase is "lying through your teeth." :-)
When you lie (or any other verb for that matter) something off, it is usually your pants. There is your technically correct and totally useless not quite fix of the day.


RE: My first iMac experience...
By 67STANG on 4/28/2008 6:23:01 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, I think it had more like either 32MB or 64MB...


RE: My first iMac experience...
By aliasfox on 4/28/2008 10:03:51 PM , Rating: 2
Frankly, if it really was 2003, I'd be complaining about *any* computer with 64 MB of RAM. Or 128, or even 256 for that matter. If that's the case, I'd blame it on the office and not the computer.


This is why apple is gaining on PC
By sapiens74 on 4/28/2008 3:48:41 PM , Rating: 2
People get tired of upgrading every year or so with the endless supplies of new video cards, cpu's and hard drives.

Most people game on a 360, Ps3 or WII, or some legacy console.

MAC's are for people that want stable and easy to use and something that will last a couple of years or more.

That is why MACs keep their value, and PC's are like buying new cars, as soon as you get it home it's worth less.

Besides, an IMAC with with no wires except the power cord looks rather nice on any desk....

BTW... I own a high end PC and love upgrading it, but most people aren't like us




RE: This is why apple is gaining on PC
By Omega215D on 4/28/2008 4:00:11 PM , Rating: 2
I remember hearing that Apple is shut tight with the configs so any that should arise will be dealt with easily unlike the other PCs with multiple graphics, motherboards and processor configs.

Like you I love adding stuff to my gaming desktop but I like my MacBook just as much. I have to admit the iMacs in my school look very tidy compared to the Dells. Shame the new iMacs can't come with 9800GT or 8800GT cards, probably would have been better for BootCampers.


By Enigmatic on 4/28/2008 4:28:57 PM , Rating: 3
Honestly though, if you plan to do any gaming at all why would you get an iMac? Anything other than a PC is just not satisfactory. I've never seen a Mac come with a graphics card that could even remotely compete with anything on a higher-end PC.

But I doubt the iMac target audience would even care that their computer can't run Crysis on low at the native resolution anyway.


By UNCjigga on 4/28/2008 5:59:19 PM , Rating: 2
Well I bet the new 9600GSO will eventually make it into the iMac--just give it 6-12 months for their next refresh! :)


RE: This is why apple is gaining on PC
By AlphaVirus on 4/28/2008 6:03:52 PM , Rating: 2
sapiens74 I have to disagree with what you say.
quote:
People get tired of upgrading every year or so with the endless supplies of new video cards, cpu's and hard drives.

quote:
MAC's are for people that want stable and easy to use and something that will last a couple of years or more.

Do you not know some people who are still on old computers with Win98/2000/ME/XP? Guess what, we all do.
The reason, because their computers are old, which means they have lasted "a couple of years".

You make it seem as if a PC is not stable and easy to use. Majority of people dont even know the difference between a PC and Mac, they just think one is average and the other is much different than what they are used to seeing.

quote:
That is why MACs keep their value, and PC's are like buying new cars, as soon as you get it home it's worth less.

Supply and Demand. You can purchase a PC at any computer store in the entire world, can you say the same about a Mac? Similar to cars, you can get a Dodge, Ford, or GM anywhere, can you buy a Rolse Royce anywhere?

And I am not saying Macs are the Rolse Royce of computers but they both have a much much lower supply thus the market is not saturated.

quote:
Besides, an IMAC with with no wires except the power cord looks rather nice on any desk....

There are All-in-one PC's ya know?
Secondly better asthetics does not always mean better overall, so when a Mac monitor goes out they require the entire computer be sent off...If my PC monitor goes out, I can hook any monitor and keep on moving.


RE: This is why apple is gaining on PC
By Scott66 on 4/28/2008 8:47:29 PM , Rating: 2
Of course there are all-in-one PC computers and they are more expensive than the iMacs. Once PC makers actually have perform some feat of design, the price shoots up. They want to be compensates for all their efforts.

Why condemn Apple's pricing when Sony and Gateway follow the same pricing strategy.


RE: This is why apple is gaining on PC
By Alexstarfire on 4/29/2008 9:00:33 AM , Rating: 3
Perhaps because we condemn Sony and Gateway as well.


By AlphaVirus on 4/29/2008 2:16:25 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah not many people care for Gateway and Sony gets blasted everyday.


A Great PC
By Master Guru on 4/28/2008 8:45:01 PM , Rating: 2
ASUS P5E3 DELUXE / WIFI-AP Intel X38 Socket 775 1600MHz DDR3-1800 ATX EPU (Energy Processing Unit) Motherboard Retail
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?Pr...
$319.99 after rebate

Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300 Yorkfield 2.5GHz 6MB L2 Cache LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
$279.99

CORSAIR XMS3 DHX 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
$209.99 after rebate

Ultra Black Aluminus ATX Mid-Tower Case with Clear Side, Front USB, Firewire and Audio Ports
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTool...
$69.99 After Rebate

BFG / 650-Watt / ATX / SATA-Ready / SLI-Ready / EPS / Power Supply
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTool...
$49.99 after rebate

(4) Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD2500KSRTL 250GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
$79.99 * 4 = $359.96

PIONEER BDC-2202B 24X SATA Blu-Ray Black Drive Retail
http://www.supermediastore.com/pioneer-bdc-2202b-b...
$158.39

Acer AL2216Wbd Flat panel display - TFT - 22" - widescreen - 1680 x 1050 - 300 cd/m2 - 700:1 - 5 ms - 0.282 mm - DVI, VGA (HD-15) - black
http://www.californiacomputer.com/Shop/product.asp...
$227

HIS H260XTP512DDN-R Radeon HD 2600 XT 512MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card Retail
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?Pr...
$94 * 2 = 188 - $20 rebate = $188

Turtle Beach Ear Force AK-R8 3.5mm/ USB Circumaural Professional Surround Sound Gaming Headphone System
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
$99.99

Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate SP1 64-bit English 1pk DSP OEI DVD - OEM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...

Total: $1,931.71 (today)

As a Hardware Designer, and a computer geek, I would expect (around mid-summer) that these prices will drop even more and then I will make myself a new PC based very closely on above (and turn this PC into a Windows Home Server).

I actually will not need the screen or the Vista License, so my cost will likely be around $1250 then. I expect the new PC to last me 5 years, so the cost per day will be about 75 cents, or what I calculate the cost of each of my PC's to have been so far.

Also, I will recycle this PC into a Windows Home Server, and therefore will extend it's life by years, stopping me from having to pay $600 for the hardware for that!

BTW, if you have an older PC and leave it on all the time, you will see a reduction in your electric bill considerably enough today to make the option of a full computer upgrade as shown above viable. The motherboard has advanced power saving features that will bring your PC's electric consumption way down. Over 5 years at a likely $20 per month in savings that will net you $1200.

.......A Win, Win with Windows




RE: A Great PC
By Scott66 on 4/28/2008 8:57:24 PM , Rating: 2
That is a wonderful machine and I wish I had it.

Now stretch the monitor by 2 inches and make it 1920x1080. that will add a couple of hundred but throw out the tower as you won't need it. Cram every thing else inside the monitor and voila you have an iMac.

Two totally different machines for two totally different users. You can't compare them so please everybody, stop trying.


RE: A Great PC
By Master Guru on 4/28/2008 9:14:20 PM , Rating: 2
You are quite right, Scott, they are not comparable - this PC would blow the doors off anything in the iMac line and all but a $5600 Mac Pro:

http://store.apple.com/AppleStore/WebObjects/BizCu...

in any benchmark test....but you would need to install Boot Camp and/or VM Ware and still not get the performance you would out of this PC.


RE: A Great PC
By cmdrdredd on 4/28/2008 9:49:40 PM , Rating: 2
I am going to buy a laptop this year. I looked everywhere and even at Macbook.

For under $900 I get a 15.4" screen, geForce 8400 256MB, 120GB HDD, Intel Wireless B/G + Lan, Vista 64bit, 2GB memory if I buy a PC variant (in this case from HP).

The nearest comparable MacBook is $2000 and that doesn't even come with a video card that I can play 3D games on. Not to mention, using Vista on a Mac doesn't allow me to run 64bit versions AFAIK so I will be limited by memory (I need windows usage OS X won't cut it).

It's easy math here.


RE: A Great PC
By Master Guru on 4/28/2008 10:49:03 PM , Rating: 2
Sounds like a good price for a laptop, but remember that the motherboard in that laptop does NOT in any likelyhood have even close to the raw power you will need to run high end apps and 3D games well. Without a powerful motherboard, those spec's are just letters and numbers.


RE: A Great PC
By Scott66 on 4/28/2008 11:53:02 PM , Rating: 2
Boot camp supports Vista 64 now. And the MacBook Pro has an 8600m GT w256MB video card, which will handle any 3D modeling and design work.

Rules are simple, if you want to seriously game than Macs are not for you. They are not designed to be gaming machines and as has been said here many times, new games take forever to make it to the Macs. They are made for other tasks.

Also a very large percentage of PC laptops are not made for gaming either


RE: A Great PC
By aliasfox on 4/28/2008 11:54:40 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, for $2k you're getting a MacBook Pro with a 15.4" LED backlit IPS display, a GeForce 8600 GT, and more HD, all at 5.4 lbs. And yes, the 8600 GT is significantly more powerful than the 8400. Let's just not compare it against an 8800 series chip...

You also get bluetooth, wireless B/G/N, 10/100/1000 Base-T ethernet, a webcam, backlit keyboard (that's pretty good to type on), and powered IEEE 1394a/b, all in a 1" thick two spindle chassis.

It may not be a great value for you if you don't care about the display, the other value-added features, or the size/weight, but you can't completely discount the fact that these other features add value for some of the market.

And honestly, there's not much further that laptops can go with current tech, given that:
a) Laptop processors max out at 2.6 GHz
b) Memory modules max out at 2 GB each
c) 2.5" HDs max out at about 250-300 GB

Simply adding more performance to a laptop isn't particularly possible without adding size or thickness, in which case the MacBook Pro loses one of its biggest selling points. More RAM = more slots = more space, More HD = 2 HDs (or 3.5") = much more space/power.


RE: A Great PC
By Omega215D on 4/29/2008 1:50:14 AM , Rating: 2
Don't forget that the MacBook Pro can get 3+ hours of battery life with that configuration compared to the usual 1 - 2 hour from other laptops.


RE: A Great PC
By aliasfox on 4/29/2008 10:03:50 AM , Rating: 2
I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, considering he didn't list a specific model. Also, some of the bigger laptops offer 80+ WHr batteries - something that Apple's avoided doing in the interest of smaller enclosures.

And besides, after owning five Apple laptops in the past decade, I happily take Apple's estimate with a spoonful of salt - with the exception of my 12" Rev A PowerBook, every other laptop's managed to undercut Apple's estimate by at least 20%.


Why not single models?
By daftrok on 4/28/2008 2:47:06 PM , Rating: 2
Can't they just have one model for each size? I know the high end 24" model can be configured by the low end but this isn't the case for the 20". Why? This is a habit in most their products, especially their Macbooks (200 dollars extra just to get a 250 GB HDD?). It seems like the only models that are just by themselves and you upgrade from there are the 17" MBP, the 24" iMac, and Mac Pro. Hopefully in time this will change.




RE: Why not single models?
By V3ctorPT on 4/28/2008 3:16:09 PM , Rating: 2
Why a super duper graphics card if u can't play on a Mac?... duh...


RE: Why not single models?
By V3ctorPT on 4/28/2008 3:18:20 PM , Rating: 2
OOOOhhhh... I know... it's a nvidia card... it's to render the BSOD faster... lol... Let the bashings beggin!!


RE: Why not single models?
By larson0699 on 5/2/2008 5:26:37 PM , Rating: 2
Because it's not super duper and you CAN play your games.

Only after overspending for the machine, installing Windows on a virtual box, and getting 100% of the power of a crippled GPU.

Go for it!


RE: Why not single models?
By Shadowself on 4/28/2008 3:19:25 PM , Rating: 2
A few years back Apple did have this kind of minimal base configurations -- one consumer desktop (with options), one pro desktop (with options), one laptop (with options). People complained that there were not a broad enough set of offerings from Apple. Now Apple has expanded it and people complain in the opposite direction. It's typical.

Besides, the bottom of the line model is for people who want to get an iMac as cheaply as possible. If someone wants more they can move up the chain.

Personally, I believe there is no substitute for screen real estate -- the more the better -- if you can afford it (and sometimes it is worth giving up a bit in other areas in order to get a larger screen).


RE: Why not single models?
By daftrok on 4/28/2008 10:05:39 PM , Rating: 2
But that makes little sense. Why not just have it capable of being upgraded to the higher end model? Like suppose I want the $1199 model but would rather pay $1299 and get the ATI Radeon 2600 PRO. It hinders me from doing so, which lacks logic because the 24" model works like that: you can do little tweaks on every aspect of the computer rather than paying a lumpsome just to get one thing. So why would they not do that for the 20" model but do that for the 24" model?


How does anyone not catch this?
By Doormat on 4/28/2008 4:06:10 PM , Rating: 3
The biggest thing should be that the CPUs in the new iMacs haven't yet been announced officially by Intel yet.

Intel has yet to officially release the Penryn refresh (1066MHz FSB mobile chips). Yet Apple is shipping hardware with them inside. And who knows if the chipset inside is either an overclocked Santa Rosa chipset or the new Montevina chipset?




RE: How does anyone not catch this?
By andreschmidt on 4/28/2008 4:14:56 PM , Rating: 2
It's the new Montevina platform.

This is not the first time Apple have received and shipped products with unannounced Intel products before.


RE: How does anyone not catch this?
By TomZ on 4/28/2008 4:48:47 PM , Rating: 2
This is the benefit Apple has at the moment, compared to bigger players like Dell and HP, since their volumes are lower they can bring newer technologies to market quicker.

You'll obvioulsy see the same chips available from the PC OEMs once Intel can supply new parts at the levels required by the higher-volume manufacturers.


By TheWizardofOz on 4/29/2008 4:57:03 AM , Rating: 2
It is NOT Montevina. The NB is still PM965.

New iMacs have a custom Santa Rosa Platform that supports 1066Mhz FSB and 800Mhz DDR2 SO-DIMM.

The processor on the high end model reports as Intel Core 2 Duo E8435.


IMAC = POS
By n00bxqb on 5/5/2008 12:29:40 AM , Rating: 1
"The first batch of new iMacs had a known issue with their ATI HD series video cards that caused a freeze requiring a reboot acknowledged by Apple in August of 2007. While that bug has been worked out of the iMac ..."

Did they actually fix that ?

I bought my iMac at the first hour it was released back in August, the top model offered (2.8 GHz C2D, 2 GB RAM, 500 GB, HD 2600 Pro) and it was the most money I've spent on a computer.

I've been screwed over repeatedly ever since I bought the piece of crap. It has failed 4 times since I got it (graphics card replaced thrice, motherboard replaced twice, CPU replaced once, memory replaced once, hard drive replaced once) and it STILL can't play games without artifacts and freezing.

In addition to that, it also takes nearly a minute to use the computer after it comes out of screensaver, I've had various "screens of death," for lack of a better term, in the form of cyan, white, magenta, and black. I don't know if Apple is just trying to one-up Microsoft by colour-coding their death screens, but it's frigging annoying when you boot your computer up in the morning and see a pink screen, reboot the computer, and it comes up w/ a pink screen again. Not knowing Macs inside and out, phone up Applecare who tells you to read the troubleshooting portion of the manual, run diagnostics, and call them back if I can't solve it myself. WTF kind of response is that ? Then, after diagnostics turns up nothing, they try to troubleshoot with me over the phone and, after 5 minutes, they tell me to put the disc in and reformat my computer. Great ... 6 weeks of ownership and they're already telling me to reformat. After reformatting fails to do anything (because it just boots a white screen), I phone them back again. They try to troubleshoot with me again to no avail and tell me to take it to Best Buy. Take it to Best Buy who tells me they don't service Macs unless they were purchased at Best Buy. Phone Applecare up AGAIN, they try to troubleshoot the same shit AGAIN, and tell me to take it to another shop that's like an hour drive away. 2 weeks later, I get my computer back.

It works fine for another couple of months and guess what ? Cyan screen of death. Goodie. Go through the same mess again ... and again another 6 weeks later ... and again in mid-March ... It's closing in on 8 weeks and I'm expecting it to die because it still seems like it's overheating (lots of heat emitting from the unit, artifacts when running 3D apps, performance drops after long periods of intense use, etc.)

And JUST to throw salt in my wounds, there's Leopard. No discount for me because I didn't wait 2 months to buy my iMac (which I never would have given the number of reports about problems, threatened lawsuits, etc.). Full price ($130) for me to upgrade. And I blindly did ... like an idiot. Over 6 months later and it's still a buggy piece of crap.

I eventually just gave up on it and built myself a new gaming rig with Vista. I'm much more satisfied and my wallet doesn't feel nearly as light as it did back in August. I really don't understand why Vista catches so much flak because it has run like a dream since I built it about a month ago. I'll end it there before I start a Mac vs. PC war (which I'm sure has already started, but I'm not going to read 221 comments to find out).

P.S. Sorry about the rant, I'm just really, really pissed off about my iMac.




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