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Apple convinced the U.S. SEC to buy overpriced servers and equipment.  (Source: Top 500)

In the end the pricey hardware and services from Apple and its partner suffered from "bugs" and the project "quickly went downhill from there."  (Source: Getty Images)

Republicans in Congress are hoping to leverage the probe into the waste to kill financial reform legislation.  (Source: Bloomberg)
Company convinced government agency to buy expensive equipment, overpay on a no-bid contract

Government waste, corruption, and, yes, every tech geek's favorite whipping boy, Apple, Inc. (AAPL) were all complicit in a sad tale of bureaucratic waste, according to the results of a probe by U.S. Security and Exchange Commission (SEC) Inspector General David Kotz.

I. Apple Sells the Government on an Expensive Proposal

In its effort to grow its business and achieve greater profitability, Apple in recent years has looked to expand outside its mastered realm of consumer electronics and enter into the world of business solutions.

Under the leadership of Christopher Cox, the SEC chair appointed by former President George W. Bush, the agency looked to aggressively expand its high tech presence, in an effort to avoid the data backup and storage woes that embarrassed it during the financial crisis.

The agency was ensorcelled by a particularly enigmatic Apple salesman who assured them that his company could provide them with the most competitive, best performing systems.

By 2008, according to the probe documents obtained by a Reuters Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) filing, the agency had fallen head over heels for Apple.  It gave the company blanket authorization to make a number of large purchases, which federal regulations state should have been thoroughly reviewed and approved first.  In addition to skipping reviews and approvals on the purchases, the SEC also improperly shared confidential financial information with Apple.

But Apple was not alone.  It jumped on the opportunity to promote a data storage solutions provider, Cloverleaf Communications, with which it had close ties.  The SEC had never done business with Cloverleaf, but convinced by that same Apple salesman, blindly entered a no-bid contract with the service provider.

Again, these actions were in gross violation of federal contracting procedures, but the agency ignored that, convinced it would see great results.

II. Poor Quality, Budget Overflows

Mr. Kotz writes that when the SEC eventually tried to test its newly acquired hardware and services, it was beset by "bugs" in the installation and setup process.  According the report, the project "quickly went downhill from there."

Despite all the money it spent, the agency reportedly was met with little sympathy from Apple ("You're installing it wrong", perhaps?) and Cloverleaf's new owners Dot Hill Systems.

Frustrated, SEC employees looked to bring up the issues to their supervisor, hoping for solutions.  According to the report the supervisor ordered them "this information doesn't leave this room" and then stormed out of the room.

Two years later and under the new leadership of SEC Chairwoman Mary Schapiro, an Obama appointee, Mr. Kotz began digging up the details of what went wrong.  He estimates that the failed project cost U.S. taxpayers at least $1M USD, much of which went directly into the coffers of Apple and Cloverleaf.

Mr. Kotz writes that the SEC's actions seem particular foolish given that Cloverleaf was "more expensive than other, better-known and less risky alternatives."

SEC spokesman John Nester released a subdued statement, commenting that the agency agrees with Mr. Kotz’s findings and is promising to improve.  He commented, "[The SEC is] taking steps to improve our policies and controls over purchases of information technology solutions, including pre-purchase review by management's technology and business oversight committees."

Apple and Dot Hill both have refused to comment on their payout at the expense of U.S. taxpayers.

III. Bad Timing

While the waste seems large by an individual's standards, the dollar figures seem small compared to Apple's billion dollar profits or the government's billions in spending.  However, while the carelessness may have cost a mere fraction of a percent of the government budget, it's troublesome because it's indicative of broader issues.

The SEC also reportedly may have lost money on a bid to rent 900,000 square feet of office space after it failed to secure the necessary Congressional funding.

The SEC Investigator General plans to make his findings public shortly, including other examples of SEC waste.

Reportedly, Congressional Republicans are looking to use the probe as ammunition to try to starve the SEC of funding; making cuts to its budget.

The real reason behind the desire to make those cuts appears to be the desire to kill the Dodd-Frank financial overhaul law, a financial bill that passed in the wake of the recent recession.

Implementing the oversight needed to enforce the new law would be relatively expensive.  The SEC is requesting $222M USD, a 16 percent increase to $1.407B USD for the fiscal 2012 that begins October 1.



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Don't blame the scorpion
By BugblatterIII on 5/25/2011 1:30:52 PM , Rating: 5
You don't blame the scorpion for stinging; you blame the idiot who shoved it up his butt.

Sales gonna do what Sales gonna do; you fall for it you're at fault.




RE: Don't blame the scorpion
By Reclaimer77 on 5/25/2011 1:39:35 PM , Rating: 5
I have to agree, at least on the premise. How STUPID do you have to be to buy professional server equipment from Apple? If you want a phone or mp3 player, sure, Apple is fine. But for productivity!? That's just insane.


RE: Don't blame the scorpion
By AssBall on 5/25/2011 2:09:45 PM , Rating: 5
You are right, that is insane. What is equally insane is that they kipped right over the bidding process that any government contract work is required to go through.


RE: Don't blame the scorpion
By Azethoth on 5/27/2011 9:32:53 AM , Rating: 3
What amazes me is it only cost them $1 million. Usually these things burn billions.

The cure probably remains more transparency. Then some competitor can notice and whine about it b4 it is too late.


RE: Don't blame the scorpion
By Bladen on 5/28/2011 3:12:17 AM , Rating: 2
They probably only purchased 1 desktop iMac with that money, they would have gone into the billions if it were a Power Mac.


RE: Don't blame the scorpion
By Ammohunt on 5/25/2011 2:40:16 PM , Rating: 3
Our marketing group fell for it at my current employer building a publishing envrionment outside of corporate IT controls clueless Apple fanbots ignorant of technology immersed in the mac is better for desktop publishing and grahics myth. Guess who inherited that mess and are in the process of replacing it with faster more stable non-apple soultion?


RE: Don't blame the scorpion
By chick0n on 5/26/2011 7:07:33 AM , Rating: 5
But Tony Swash swear on his mother's grave that Apple is superior in every single way ?

Honestly, this is what happens when you hire(appointed?) clueless morons. Its funny that every single time I hear all these "Mac is better" crap, when I ask them to explain to me WHY. none of them can and they just keep on going back to the "oh it has no viruses and it's faster than your PC"

hmm ok, moron, its ok to dream, but reality begs to differ.


RE: Don't blame the scorpion
By Fleeb on 5/28/2011 1:41:38 AM , Rating: 2
Speaking of whom, why is there no signs of him?


Not surprising
By wranglerangler on 5/25/2011 1:10:07 PM , Rating: 3
If you don't think the SEC is criminally incompetent, corrupt, toothless, or some combination thereof, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.




RE: Not surprising
By Hieyeck on 5/25/2011 2:10:26 PM , Rating: 2
I've got private islands in Nevada for half price.


RE: Not surprising
By bitterman0 on 5/25/2011 3:15:47 PM , Rating: 2
Hey, wait until "the big one" in California, and all those ocean front properties in Arizona will live up to their name!


RE: Not surprising
By shin0bi272 on 5/27/2011 7:11:47 AM , Rating: 2
please look up FAS157 before you claim that the SEC is brilliant


can't help but feel...
By kleinma on 5/25/2011 1:44:33 PM , Rating: 5
Can't help but feel like this decision was made based on the guy from the SEC going "well I love my iPhone and I love my iPad, and Macs don't get viruses... so where do I sign???"




RE: can't help but feel...
By ddh on 5/25/2011 1:59:12 PM , Rating: 3
"Can't help but feel like this decision was made based on the guy from the SEC going "well I love my iPhone and I love my iPad, and Macs don't get viruses... so where do I sign???"

I agree and approve your message sir.


By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 6:05:03 PM , Rating: 3
Apparently they learned a lot from Halliburton.

What a role model for capitalism. </Not really>




By TheJian on 5/26/2011 4:47:16 PM , Rating: 3
We haven't received a drop of oil from IRAQ since going over there. Are you aware of the fact that they have an $80-100bil surplus every year and we are still footing the bill? Even dems have said "for christ's sake take it already!". We didn't go for oil. We didn't get any oil. Years later, we still haven't gotten a drop free. This might have changed recently (can't be bothered to look more). But up to 2009 they weren't even paying for their own RE-CONSTRUCTION.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/06/world/ma...

Get over it. Everyone in oil makes TONS of money. Halliburton is no different (check out BP, Exxon etc...All raking it in). There's a reason all the sheiks are billionaires. OIL MAKES MONEY. If you're a driller, and environmentalist wackos won't let you drill in USA, you head to Iraq etc. where you can make your money again without whiners. Common sense. Did they get a good deal? I think so, probably - jury's still out (court takes forever - even if you're guilty, $2bil/year can easily buy you out of it - ala Microsoft's Monopoly verdict). Any different than Chris Dodd's house deal with Country Wide/Fannie/Freddie? Any different than Barney Frank sleeping with a guy at Goldman's for 10 years, overseeing your lovers business transactions with the govt?...LOL. Or the vid with him claiming fannie/freddie are doing AWESOME two months before the crap hit the fan? Could you really lead that committee and NOT know you're about to have 1/2 the housing market lopped off? You knew. But you were making money, so screw America :) That house deal wasn't too bad of a bonus either ;)

There's scum on both sides (alright, it's almost ALL SCUM)

At least Halliburton is taking IRAQ's money instead of ours :)
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9HM5...
They make their own deals. No govt. needed.

Don't forget Exxon is a company with 400+Billion in sales and makes $35 billion a year in income (XOM ticker - sorry know about these guys because of stocks - Tell me you're not smiling about your profits). Halliburton only makes 2Billion on just under $20bil in sales. Intel makes these guys look puny. Exxon however, make Intel look like Walmart vs. 7-Eleven. I still can't understand how people blew this all out of proportion. You should be complaining about Exxon etc. big tax breaks (it's a lot of taxes when you're talking $35billion! PER YEAR!).

So 90Bil surplus in Iraq from 2003-2007 but you've only spent 6.7Bil on reconstruction. The other 600Bil came from us huh? Now they're shooting up to 80-100Bil per year (not per 5 years from 2003-2007), holy gas pump prices man! Yep, as stated in the article, we're paying 600bil for a war when Iraq is saving an estimated 100bil/year now, because "they can't write checks yet"...ROFL. What? Nice. I can't write a check either, but I have a bank card and a few visa's...LOL. You can't argue about these numbers, you can pull them up on any news site and the media is 80+% liberal so it's amazing it hit every news outlet (How many channels on TV, and it's Fox vs. everyone else? Name another conservative channel). Pretty bad when Dem's/Dem news says 'we ain't getting no freaking oil'. And of course the title of the article. US OFFICIALS defend stupid stance of letting Iraq ripoff america (in your face AND at the pump)...oh wait...Yeah, that was it almost verbatim ;) Halliburton Trolls...


By YashBudini on 5/26/2011 11:10:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
At least Halliburton is taking IRAQ's money instead of ours :)

We should be recouping our war expenses, yeah like that's going to happen.


Apple Productivity
By fstarnella on 5/25/2011 2:29:11 PM , Rating: 5
The only productivity Apple is good at is draining your wallet for crap.




RE: Apple Productivity
By YashBudini on 5/26/2011 11:13:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
draining your wallet for crap

Isn't that 80% of all the electronic crack that's out there as of the last few years?


Director should be fired
By Dug on 5/25/2011 3:23:01 PM , Rating: 3
Only an idiot would contract unknown services without research. And only an idiot would write a contract that didn't state the specific hardware and services needed to work. If they didn't work, then the blame goes to the company that did the installation.




RE: Director should be fired
By Dug on 5/25/2011 3:29:35 PM , Rating: 2
edit- Then they would have a working system, or their money back. This is basic business.

Blaming a salesman? Apple? Really?.. Blame the idiot that didn't follow standard rules.

I'll bet you anything they bought the hardware and software and tried to do the installation and setup themselves and didn't have anything in the contract for support.

Probably the same reason the system before it failed. The people running it are idiots.


I hope its killed
By FITCamaro on 5/25/2011 5:41:44 PM , Rating: 2
That financial "overhaul" bill does nothing but reward the stupid. Not to mention excludes the two organizations that are the biggest risks to our financial system right now, Fannie and Freddie.

I've gotten calls to lower my interest rates. I answered one time and talked to them. Basically was told that I'm not irresponsible enough. That I didn't have enough debt. And that those who don't get their credit card rates locked down (as a result of having high balances) will face 30% interest rates after December of next year as a result of this law.

So basically if I wanted to go buy $5000 worth of stuff on a credit card, then my balances would be high enough and I could get my rates locked low. Otherwise I'll be paying 30% on any balance I have when the rate hikes hit.




RE: I hope its killed
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 6:27:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Basically was told that I'm not irresponsible enough. That I didn't have enough debt.

FEMA told me that once, they gave money away to people who were far more spend crazy than me.

No good deed goes unpunished.


Lol
By borismkv on 5/25/2011 8:00:41 PM , Rating: 4
Apparently no one told the SEC that Apple and Enterprise IT don't go together.




Wait a minute...
By chagrinnin on 5/25/2011 1:28:46 PM , Rating: 1
...you mean they paid their bill wrong!?




RE: Wait a minute...
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 6:08:23 PM , Rating: 2
"No bid contract" is just another way of saying pad the bill with as many extra zeroes as possible before the government questions it.

The bill was printed wrong, the dumb a$$ government paid it without question, like always.


Should be a crime
By Lanister on 5/25/2011 2:31:22 PM , Rating: 3
Will the person(s) who approved all of this be brought up on some sort of charges? Nope. It would be one thing if this purchase followed the process and was approved but given the fact that someone decided to ignore the required process something needs to happen to them. I will be surprised if whoever approved all of this even lost their job.

As far as I am concerned this is theft, plain and simple.




The REAL issue
By EricMartello on 5/25/2011 5:56:54 PM , Rating: 2
It's no secret that the US Government is inefficient and wasteful, but the thing you all are missing is this:

Apple products are a WASTE of money.

It's no secret but this really underscores that fact.




"Overpriced"? By what standards?
By ipay on 5/25/11, Rating: 0
By seamonkey79 on 5/26/2011 11:18:34 PM , Rating: 2
Overpriced by the standards of "does this do a good job for the amount being spent on it?"

Answer was "no"


By atlmann10 on 5/26/2011 9:58:27 AM , Rating: 2
This is really funny when looked at from a broad over view. The broad part being based on time and of course the last time Apple threw them selves to the curb.

My mother many years ago had an Apple IIE supplied by her work which was the board of education. Of course it and a Commodore 64 were the first PC's in my house. These were bought by the BOE basically on a belief that these were the way of the future, which in many ways they were.

However; they also were the opposite in many way the primary at that time being cross compatibility, the secondary being specific cross compatibility with a little know (at that time) company named Microsoft, and of course the IBM personal computer model.

This device at that time much like now was viewed as a "perfect and unquestionable one" much like the devices in this article. The comparison is actually spot on if for different reasons. Blind belief in any technology with no oversight in any way being the most applicable.

I am sure I will get some negative comments for this, but I would love to see a summary of companies and organizations which bought either iPhones (to a lesser degree) and iPads that could never be brought up to there organizations security standards or applicable software platforms, and are for that reason not used, or are used to nowhere near the degree or amount which was envisioned when it all started.

I am not down playing these devices in any way as I still believe they have (even though I use neither one) brought technology fully into it's new norm much like it did back in the day. Apple however much like an inventor with a completely new idea often becomes a sacrificial lamb in the long run to someone (or some companies) who is willing to adapt and work together, believing that group or multi entity solutions are much smarter than singular ones.

As I have said before many times if you are on the same path you will most likely reach the same end point no matter where you are hoping that path will lead.

Apple has obviously learned in a sense from previous mistakes and made a much wider base foray into it this time, and therefore will not fall as far, or as fast (into technical obscurity) as they did the last time I am sure.

The reason for this should be looked at by them as it is basically because of the incompatibility now forced by the internet. If they adopted that across the board they would have greater success long term as would companies or organization who waste vast amounts of money and time following this blind leader down a very similar path for a second time.




Industry standard
By aardarf on 5/26/2011 1:08:42 PM , Rating: 2
“Company convinced government agency to buy expensive equipment, overpay on a no-bid contract”
“In the end the pricey hardware and services from Apple and its partner suffered from "bugs" and the project "quickly went downhill from there."”
Is this really news? Isn’t this what contractors always do?
(I’m not saying its ok, I’m saying this is the norm).




Silly person
By macthemechanic on 5/28/2011 10:26:43 AM , Rating: 1
Apple has no competition. Why would there need to be a bid process?




Pure Horse!!!! Article
By hiscross on 5/25/11, Rating: -1
RE: Pure Horse!!!! Article
By INeedCache on 5/25/2011 3:52:55 PM , Rating: 3
So everyone who buys something that is no good or isn't as advertised is at fault, and not the vendor? If you were blatantly lied to by a salesman, and you believe his lie and purchase, it's your fault? How does that make any sense?


RE: Pure Horse!!!! Article
By mondo1234 on 5/25/2011 4:19:15 PM , Rating: 1
You read the text to discover that?
I just look at the author.


RE: Pure Horse!!!! Article
By bupkus on 5/26/2011 9:11:41 AM , Rating: 2
So, can I interest you in trading your gold coin investments for some numismatics? Although I'm not licensed as an investment consultant with the state I can promise you it would be a good investment. </sarcasm>


Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/11, Rating: -1
RE: Waste
By swampthing1117 on 5/25/2011 1:29:05 PM , Rating: 5
it's that kind of attitude that creates this kind of waste in the first place. You start anywhere there's waste whether it's a dollar or a billion. This kind of waste is inexcusable no matter the amount. The government could easily lower taxes if they got all their excessive and idiotic spending under control.


RE: Waste
By icemansims on 5/25/2011 2:37:33 PM , Rating: 5
You've never done project management, have you?
He's not saying ignore it. It all boils down to man-hours. You can't tackle EVERYTHING at once. All you end up doing is running around in a circle, screaming and pulling at your hair. You back off first, figure out where the worst problems are, prioritizing down from there and tackle it one problem at a time, or two or three or whatever you have the manpower for. Eventually, when this is the worst problem left, then it will get fixed too, but you can't fix everything at once.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/2011 3:01:11 PM , Rating: 4
Exactly.


RE: Waste
By foolsgambit11 on 5/25/2011 6:15:11 PM , Rating: 5
On the other hand, high-profile reprimands for relatively small waste can have a preventative effect, since others are likely to be more careful with the government's money in the future, to avoid a similar fate. In this way, you don't have to track down every little waste; you create a culture of thriftiness.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/11, Rating: -1
RE: Waste
By The Raven on 5/25/11, Rating: 0
RE: Waste
By The Raven on 5/26/2011 12:46:00 PM , Rating: 2
Why did I get rated down for making a fairly neutral comment?


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 6:14:38 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Cut the large spending first, like welfare and medicaid

And as a "I take care of my own" type of adult you'll step up and pay all your parents medical bills and nursing home costs when they run out of money, right? And please don't kid anyone, they will in fact run out of money.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/2011 6:38:07 PM , Rating: 1
I will let them die.


RE: Waste
By FITCamaro on 5/25/2011 11:31:11 PM , Rating: 1
Welfare and Medicaid don't cover seniors dumbass. Medicare does.

And Paul Ryan's plan to privatize it makes sense. Put them back in the pool with everyone else. Take the liability off the federal government where it never should have been to start with.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/26/2011 1:12:22 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Welfare and Medicaid don't cover seniors dumbass. Medicare does.


Wrong, seniors that run out of money and have no Medicare get Medicaid, as well as seniors that that have Medicare. I know people who have both, typically seniors in nursing homes that once worked and simply went broke.

Your post not only shows your hateful ignorance, but also the raters. How else to explain why your weren't voted down but this accurate reply will be?

The ad hominem attack was redundant, we all know who and what you are.


RE: Waste
By drycrust3 on 5/25/2011 4:43:01 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
This kind of waste is inexcusable no matter the amount.

I'm not American, but to me the wasting of $1M, or however much it is, over looks the fact that the current US national debt increases by $1M in half a minute. While wasting US Taxpayers money isn't a good look, spending more time and money chasing that and not dealing with the debt is like calling the plumber to fix a dripping tap, but not asking him to fix the burst water pipe.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 6:19:21 PM , Rating: 1
If there's ten billion dollars in Medicare fraud a year do you think it's 10 cases of $1,000,000,000 each or more like 1,000,000 cases of $10,000 each?

Ask your water company how much water loss in a large city is caused by "dripping pipes".


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 10:16:59 PM , Rating: 2
Can anyone exlain why that was rated down?

No swearing, no insults, a fairly reasonable question.

So Jason, who are these non-contributing raters? The armchair quarterbacks of DT?


RE: Waste
By drycrust3 on 5/26/2011 4:07:43 PM , Rating: 2
If you were in a space ship and there were two air leaks, a big one and a small one, which would concern you the most, the big one or the small one? The big one of course, because while the minor leak will lead to you dying in, say, a year, the major one will lead to you dying in, say, a day!
When you have a major problem and a minor problem that occur similataneously, unless the minor system failure is really easy to fix you should deal with the major problem first.
One of the laws of fixing faults is that a major system failure produces minor system failures. That means that if you spend time trying to fix the minor system failures, even if you are successful and do fix a lot of them, you still have that major system failure that hasn't been fixed; conversely, if you fix the major system failure then all the minor system failures disappear as well.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/26/2011 6:04:31 PM , Rating: 2
Curbing waste is not a life or death matter. Most fraud cases aren't worthy of headlines. What they typically do is to address a handful of really large cases that get some limelight, and expect that to curb the smaller game.

And even though a fraud investigator may recover money many times more than what they are paid, they are often the first people to lose their jobs during tough times. That's ironic, since they represent one of the few workers that are actually profitable monetarily to the government.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/26/11, Rating: 0
RE: Waste
By Iaiken on 5/26/2011 4:35:13 PM , Rating: 2
Raters gonna rate...


RE: Waste
By BugblatterIII on 5/25/2011 1:32:34 PM , Rating: 5
A lot of those billions come from a thousand $1M wastes.


RE: Waste
By TSS on 5/25/2011 2:47:04 PM , Rating: 2
I wonder how much of the $6,85 trillion dollars the federal, state and local governments spend consists of those $1 million wastes.


RE: Waste
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 5/25/2011 5:48:42 PM , Rating: 2
Quite a bit.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 6:38:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Quite a bit.

Translation - You don't want to know.

That's an agreement by the way, oh wisest of raters.


RE: Waste
By Taft12 on 5/25/2011 3:23:24 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, only one of those billions comes from a thousand $1M wastes.


RE: Waste
By BugblatterIII on 5/25/2011 4:36:57 PM , Rating: 1
Each billion could come from a different thousand $1M wastes.

Pedantry only works when you're right ;oÞ


RE: Waste
By DanNeely on 5/25/2011 1:33:14 PM , Rating: 5
A few million here, a few million there; and pretty soon you're talking about real money.


RE: Waste
By LancerVI on 5/25/2011 2:57:46 PM , Rating: 5
Are you guys F'ing nuts????

Only an ignoramus would say something that crazy!

Like somebody already said. A million here and a million there and soon, you're talking about real money.

The fact that you guys are actually trying to tell us "it's only millions" tells me, your budget is a mess, you've never had a budget, your bankrupt, on your way to being bankrupt or all of the above.

Ridiculous.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/11, Rating: 0
RE: Waste
By deathwombat on 5/25/2011 3:56:51 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Spending money on a dying generation is a huge waste.


You're right, screw 'em. All their generation ever did was save the world, turn America into the wealthiest country on the planet, and give birth to us all. Now that those lazy senior citizens are no longer fighting our wars or building our empire, let's turn our back on them. Serves them right for getting old and raising a generation of ungrateful children.


RE: Waste
By Iaiken on 5/25/2011 3:57:35 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Serves them right for getting old and raising a generation of ungrateful children.


I <3 this...


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/11, Rating: 0
RE: Waste
By deathwombat on 5/25/2011 4:07:35 PM , Rating: 2
If your children aren't going to take care of you in your old age, why propagate? I would certainly regret my decision if I was your father.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/11, Rating: 0
RE: Waste
By deathwombat on 5/25/2011 4:29:31 PM , Rating: 2
Most primates and large communal mammals take good care of their elders, but let's get back to humans.

You owe everything you have to the people who worked and paid taxes before you. They supported you when you were a leech on society, getting the free education that put you on the road to college and career success. They paid taxes to support the nation's old and young for 40 or 50 years, and now it's your turn to support them. That's the circle of life. If you're not going to support them, why did they support you? You owe a debt to their generation. Are you good for your debts or not?

They beat the Germans, they beat the Japanese, they built the hospitals that we were born in and the schools that paved the way for our success. They advanced science, medicine and nutrition, allowing their children to have an unprecedented health. Unfortunately, they also extended their own lifespans by 20 years, and their refusal to die immediately after retirement like their parents is a bit inconvenient for us, but I still think they've earned a little dignity while they're waiting to die.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/11, Rating: 0
RE: Waste
By AssBall on 5/25/2011 5:34:58 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Dignity is irrelevant in death, as you still die.


Like most things you say, stating it doesn't make it true. Pretending to act like a heartless snob isn't helping your case either.

quote:
The minute the government decides I must pay for everyone's parents, that is the point where it is no longer acceptable.


The minute the government decides I have to pay for your kids education it is acceptable to you, however? Kind of a double standard, seeing as our Elders are a real resource to younger generations.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/11, Rating: 0
RE: Waste
By wranglerangler on 5/25/2011 5:41:35 PM , Rating: 2
My grandfather's tank got disabled by a shell in Korea. His buddy stuck his head out the hatch to have a look and his body fell back in without most of his head. My grandfather escaped from the burning tank and was MIA for over two weeks behind enemy lines. When he came home, he worked as a carpenter and farmed on the side until the day he was not phsically able to do either anymore.

He saved his whole life, and I don't ever recall seeing him spend a dime on anything other than gasoline and diesel fuel. He came down with dimentia and symptoms similar to Alzheimers when he was in his 60s.

My grandmother also worked her whole life but still spent every dime they had saved in order to care for him, and if it hadn't been for Medicare and Social Security she would have lost everything. He's been gone for years now, and she can't work. She would be destitute or rely on me or my parents to take care of her without social entitlement programs.

The reality is that in America it is not easy to save for retirement. Wages are incredibly low and most people live paycheck to paycheck. Those that are able to save usually don't have enough to last through our ever increasing life spans.

Taking care of the elderly is something to be proud of, something that sets us apart from animals and makes us human. And government is not about what is good for you, it is about doing things that are good for everyone. As a society, we see Social Security and Medicare as worthwhile programs to help our most vulnerable citizens.

If you don't want your tax dollars supporting such programs, then run for office and change the laws. If you are successful, then God help us all because I can only imagine the cruel, dystopian state humanity would be in.

We stand upon the shoulders of giants, and I for one would rather enjoy the view than stab them in the back.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/11, Rating: 0
RE: Waste
By croc on 5/26/2011 3:47:04 AM , Rating: 1
Hmmm... Taking all emotional morality out of this equation, I see no reason for your continued life. A person without emotion and morality is either a stone cold killer or a vegetable. I'd like to meet you, vegetable.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/26/2011 9:34:23 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Hmmm... Taking all emotional morality out of this equation, I see no reason for your continued life. A person without emotion and morality is either a stone cold killer or a vegetable. I'd like to meet you, vegetable.


Morality is subjective and changes based on society. At one time it was moral in the country and extremely popular to take underage brides.

Emotion is a response for social interaction, not for logical decisions. This is not tea time, it is a debate over something monetary, which means emotion has no place in it. Know where and when to apply emotion and when to apply pure logic, it will serve you well.


RE: Waste
By The Raven on 5/25/2011 7:12:31 PM , Rating: 2
I like hearing this and some of the other comments of appreciation as I come from a family of veterans myself. But I do have to say that we do have to put a price on how much we thank our elders by throwing money at them. We can also thank them through time spent with them and appreciating the freedoms that they fought for. They didn't fight for money. So why should we thank them with it?

They fought so we and others could be free. If we shackle ourselves with unsustainable taxes then we go against everything they fought for.

Of course, I am all about thanking those who have fought and died for us (even with money) but I am just saying that there is a line that has to be made. Because we owe everything to them and there is no way that I can give them that. I have kids to feed. The same kids that my Grandfather risked his life for in Germany.

And don't get me wrong. Again I appreciate your story of gratitude, but I don't understand a couple things:
quote:
My grandmother also worked her whole life but still spent every dime they had saved in order to care for him, and if it hadn't been for Medicare and Social Security she would have lost everything. He's been gone for years now, and she can't work. She would be destitute or rely on me or my parents to take care of her without social entitlement programs.

Would you or your parents not take care of her? With entilement programs you maybe can't afford to care for her because you are paying to care for someone else's mother through the tax system. I'm sure your would gladly care for your mother since I detect that you have a sincere appreciation for your elders. So I don't see what the problem would be if there were no SS or Medicare.
quote:
The reality is that in America it is not easy to save for retirement. Wages are incredibly low and most people live paycheck to paycheck. Those that are able to save usually don't have enough to last through our ever increasing life spans.
Wages are incredibly low compared to where? Luxemburg? And MOST people live paycheck to paycheck? I mean you are saying that wages are low but are you ignoring the fact that there's a bunch of people moving here from Mexico and other Latin-American countries for the wages (which many times, I would guess most, are lower than the national minimum)? You can't just make crazy claims like that even if you do have a valid point.
quote:
If you don't want your tax dollars supporting such programs, then run for office and change the laws. If you are successful, then God help us all because I can only imagine the cruel, dystopian state humanity would be in.
I actually believe that it would be better with less gov't reliance. I believe in the goodness of people. I actually think that you are already in a dystopian state if you think you need the gov't to take care of you because you distrust your fellow man.
quote:
We stand upon the shoulders of giants, and I for one would rather enjoy the view than stab them in the back.
As a 'freetard' I like this statement. But what you propose in your comments is that rather than lift someone else (like our children) as they did for us, you propose that we should lift our elders on our shoulders instead. That defeats the purpose.

There should be no "view enjoying"... get someone on your shoulders as those before us.

I certainly don't agree with everything that other dude was saying, but it does have to be said that there needs to be a line drawn. And I just wanted to try to be a pragmatic rational voice to his sentiment.


RE: Waste
By Jalek on 5/25/2011 11:01:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I believe in the goodness of people. I actually think that you are already in a dystopian state if you think you need the gov't to take care of you because you distrust your fellow man.


All I have to say about that is that it was "our fellow man" who drove these no-bid contracts through all over government in the last 10 years. There were reasons the requirements and limitations were enacted that these people decided to ignore. If a former presidential candidate gets his way and we "pull the trigger" on Iran and directly intervene in Libya, that will also be our "fellow man", and I have no faith that he gives a damn about anyone's interests but his own.


RE: Waste
By The Raven on 5/26/2011 12:59:32 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
All I have to say about that is that it was "our fellow man" who drove these no-bid contracts through all over government in the last 10 years.

This is a perfect example of why we would be better off with less gov't. No one is forcing anyone to enter into a no-bid contract. They willingly give up their freedom in return for some compensation in one form or another. The reason you see such bad behavior in gov't and in the upper echelons of corporate America is because they have little responsibility for their actions and have a parachute made of materials ranging from bronze to gold. Take those parachutes away. The US gov't itself is one huge parachute. At its formation it was a humble parachute that protected our freedom. Now it is a huge parachute that even includes life support. Now we are finding that the parachute is riddled with holes. We need to get to fixing it before it will not even be able to protect our freedom.

When was the last time you saw a politician punished for bad/illegal behavior? (I'm talking jail time like the rest of us, not some slap on the wrist fine or censure or opportunity to step down.) Gov. Sanford (R), Rep. Rangel (D), Tim Geithner (D?), Gov. Palin (R), Sen. Daschle (D), Gov. Schwarzenegger (R)... ... ...

There is practically no accountability other than, "Duh, I guess you won't be reelected." With term limits, how is that even a punishment?

And look at all the crooks who took us all for billions that help facilitate the economic collapse of 2008. How many of them are behind bars? Madoff. I think that is about it. Why? Because of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac took responsibility away from lenders (then we compensated them for their bad deeds by bailing them out). And that is why they made the offenses in the first place: "I have zero risk? I'll make big stupid decisions then and lend to people who probably won't be able to pay me back." Mess with the free market, and it will mess with you.

And just like those gov't employees entering no-bid contracts, those who bought the houses and made the investments should be responsible for themselves as well. We cannot blame our problems on individuals in either the public or private sectors because those masses of people are made up of you and me. We can only criticize ourselves for setting up such a irrational system and tempting people to make bad decisions because there are minimal consequences. But I'm sure that will be the case as long as economic development trumps economic freedom (or freedom of any kind for that matter) in this country.

It's not the people: it is the system that we have erroneously set up.
quote:
I have no faith that [our "fellow man"] gives a damn about anyone's interests but his own.

Forgive me if I misinterpreted your comment, but this statement means that you believe you are the only person on the planet who is considerate of others, or you are just as selfish as the rest of us. Look around you (people you actually know) and I would bet that the vast majority of people surrounding you are decent honest human beings. It is better out there than cable news would have you think.
I have no idea what former candidate you are referring to. Many have proposed as much. Are you talking about Obama? Congress doesn't know where he stands so I assume neither do you.
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/05/26/con...
I don't think anyone thought that Obama would get us mixed up in another military conflict in another country when they voted for him. And you can say "directly" 'til you are blue in the face...
I mean I'm sure Obama loves this picture...
http://i14.tinypic.com/2d2b2uf.jpg
...as much as he loves this one, right?
http://bigjournalism.com/files/2011/03/gaddafi-oba...

And as far as the article goes, it is Apple being Apple. Selling overpriced products to 'uninformed' (no-bid) people, be they in the gov't or not.


RE: Waste
By relztes on 5/25/2011 5:42:08 PM , Rating: 2
Well I wouldn't wish that on anyone, not even you, so hopefully you won't make it to old age.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 6:24:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
so hopefully you won't make it to old age.

I got a C note that says he'll be screaming "gimme gimme gimme" louder than most.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/11, Rating: 0
RE: Waste
By jjmcubed on 5/25/2011 7:26:11 PM , Rating: 2

quote:
I make more than double the national average wage. My earnings potential as it stands moves to quadruple the average within a few years assuming I do nothing to better myself or start my own business, then the potential rises significantly (I get about 3 job listings a week for over 100k a year and I turned down a job for over 100k as it stands to work where I am at because I can afford to make that choice). I live in an area where there are no state income taxes, housing is cheap and cost of living is low.


/golfclap


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 7:55:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I make more than double the national average wage.

You're looking more like Mother Teresa with every passing moment.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/26/2011 9:39:12 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
You're looking more like Mother Teresa with every passing moment.


I'd rather not, she was a pretty good example of a hypocrite and a fraud.

http://mostlywater.org/mother_teresa_faithless_fra...

Once again, no actual argument or presentation of a logical thought, just Ad Hominem.


RE: Waste
By Iaiken on 5/26/2011 9:48:03 AM , Rating: 2
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA...

Headline from the site you posted...

quote:
Canada on Secret Oil Offensive


Read the article and a few others and it's all conspiracy theory or wanton ranting... I can see why you were drawn to the article now.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/26/2011 11:28:18 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Read the article and a few others and it's all conspiracy theory or wanton ranting... I can see why you were drawn to the article now.


Logical fallacy, just because other parts may be wrong doesn't mean that particular article is wrong. Much like a person can be wrong on one thing and right on another, it has no bearing on the matter at hand.

They clearly have marked sources, much like any Wikipedia article, you check the sources. If you can refute the sources with evidence, I am more than happy to accept that and reassess the initial statement.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/26/2011 5:19:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'd rather not, she was a pretty good example of a hypocrite and a fraud.

Epic sarcasm failure.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 6:22:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Show me another animal that worries more about its seniors over its young.

You're free to behave like them, with no intellect whatsoever. Doesn't mean everyone else has to drop down to your level.

Feel better now?


RE: Waste
By LancerVI on 5/26/2011 11:07:58 AM , Rating: 2
We're not animals you ignoramus.

You want to be an animal? Go lock yourself up with the apes at the zoo.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/26/2011 11:23:42 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
We're not animals you ignoramus.


Tell that to the biologists. Last I checked, we are primates and animals just the same as all the rest. A big brain doesn't somehow set you apart from the rest of the animal kingdom, it is just an evolved trait that is beneficial for survival.


RE: Waste
By bigboxes on 5/25/2011 5:02:25 PM , Rating: 2
I don't like you.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/2011 5:05:43 PM , Rating: 2
And? I don't produce logical arguments for you to like me. Things that make logical sense do so regardless of the speaker. It is a well known logical fallacy to attack the speaker rather than the argument, no matter how thinly veiled.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 6:34:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't produce logical arguments for you to like me.

quote:
I don't produce logical arguments.

Fixed it for you. Your private little Idaho is certainly not correct, let alone Eden.

quote:
Things that make logical sense do so regardless of the speaker.

And...
quote:
Things that do not make logical sense do not regardless of the speaker.

Guess which category most here place you in.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/2011 6:40:30 PM , Rating: 2
Refute a claim, oh master of logical fallacy.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 6:44:44 PM , Rating: 2
Ever see a shrink refute the claims of any of their patients? A futile process that has nothing to do with logic.
quote:
I will let them die.

I've seen a lot of sociopaths that also believe they are highly logical. No amout of logical reasoning works on them.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/2011 7:07:26 PM , Rating: 2
Once again, Ad Hominem because you cannot objectively refute something. What if I was a sociopath, would that somehow refute the claim? That is a logical fallacy my friend, you are nailing them out of the park, I'm sure Aristotle is rolling.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 7:08:51 PM , Rating: 2
When I say seek professional help it's not a criticism, it's really good advice.

Your viewpoint doesn't change that.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/2011 7:11:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
When I say seek professional help it's not a criticism, it's really good advice. Your viewpoint doesn't change that.


Remind me how this refutes the claim and isn't diverting from the original subject at hand? If I was a sociopath as you insinuate, then there is no "help", as all psychiatrists will turn away any sociopath immediately.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 8:00:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If I was a sociopath as you insinuate, as all psychiatrists will turn away any sociopath immediately.

Finally, a logical comment everyone can understand and agree with.

quote:
I will let them die.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath


RE: Waste
By Iaiken on 5/25/2011 10:04:49 PM , Rating: 2
Yash,

He clearly doesn't see the irony of a sociopath giving advice to the rest of society in regards to the social contract between the young and the elderly.

Seriously, this would be comedy gold if it weren't so sad.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 10:13:48 PM , Rating: 2
I guess why would he? He thinks he's normal.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Sociopath-Nex...

You have to wonder if this is what makes Wall St bankers what they are today.

He makes double the average US salary, I'm sure Al Capone thought highly of his earnings as well.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/26/2011 9:36:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
He makes double the average US salary, I'm sure Al Capone thought highly of his earnings as well.


More diversion and Ad Hominem cause you know you can't refute anything, so you attack the presenter.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/26/2011 5:26:33 PM , Rating: 2
Keep in mind that you have done a far better job of identifying yourself as a sociopath than I have.

quote:
I would let them die.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/26/2011 9:46:29 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
He clearly doesn't see the irony of a sociopath giving advice to the rest of society in regards to the social contract between the young and the elderly.


If I was truly a sociopath, wouldn't it make more sense for me to manipulate you through appeals to emotion? They clearly work on you and most others. Do you honestly think it is that hard to manipulate people? Tell some made up sad story, get people to feel sorry for you, make some point while being apologetic and they lap it up like dogs.

While people like that deserve to be used like the fools they are, this is a logical argument and I am presenting my arguments in that fashion. Take a basic class in logic and point the flaws in said logic, otherwise you are just another dolt who sprays Ad Hominem to try to deflect from your ignorance.


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/26/2011 11:49:58 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Finally, a logical comment everyone can understand and agree with.


Funny part is you don't even know what the link you posted means. Letting someone die doesn't fit into the criteria as presented in your link.

"lack of remorse, as indicated by indifference to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;"

Considering letting someone die would not be hurting, mistreating or stealing from another, there is no rationalization. We all let people die everyday, for a few bucks you could save tons of kids in third world countries, but honestly how many people do? Pretty simple pro and con. If you can either prolong an old person's life or provide for the younger generation, clearly the benefit is better felt for all of society with the younger generation.

I am starting to suspect you are what you call me. You clearly abuse people verbally, justify it, manipulate people through appeals to emotion and ignore any pointed out flaw with more personal attacks. You ignore logical arguments because they are impossible to manipulate, so you fall back to emotions and name calling, as those are gray areas you can play with.

I have a feeling this link may help you and others who were never taught basic logic or even bothered to teach yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

If you present a logical argument, you will see that the conversation goes a lot smoother.


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/26/2011 1:15:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Considering letting someone die would not be hurting, mistreating or stealing from another, there is no rationalization.

You mean like letting them starve to death?


RE: Waste
By Reclaimer77 on 5/25/2011 10:42:28 PM , Rating: 2
Being a tad bit dramatic aren't we?


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/26/2011 9:42:22 AM , Rating: 2
Not for someone who oozes logical fallacy. The logically fallacious tend to be as dramatic as possible, it is how they get people on their side cause most of the world thinks with their emotions rather than logic.

This is the reason the world is in the predicament it is in, cause a bunch of emotional idiots fall for appeals to emotion. Same reason those morons get hooked into scams and cults, no logical flow, just emotion.


RE: Waste
By Iaiken on 5/25/2011 4:31:35 PM , Rating: 2
There's a problem with your budget link...

It grossly misrepresents the military budget by incorrectly allocating interest payments on past military debt under "gross public debt". The correct military budget including the servicing of it's debt is in the 1.4 trillion dollar range, but don't let my pointing out some book cooking stop you from being a pretentious jackhole. :D


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/2011 4:45:25 PM , Rating: 2
Remind me why that matters to the subject matter at hand as I didn't mention military spending once.


RE: Waste
By Iaiken on 5/25/2011 4:57:46 PM , Rating: 2
Because if one aspect of the budget you threw forward to support your argument was of questionable validity, then the entire budget is of questionable validity. If they are hiding military numbers elsewhere to make it look good and avoid cuts, then perhaps they are fluffing stuff into the areas they want make look bad so that they can propose cuts?

For being a super enlightened guiding light of society, you sure are dense...


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/2011 5:03:09 PM , Rating: 2
Do you have anything contrary to the rest of the budget? What is your source? Have you provided anything to contradict anything in the source I provided other than to just say so? It seems odd I am to take your word for it.


RE: Waste
By Iaiken on 5/26/2011 1:22:05 PM , Rating: 2
The comptroller of the Government Accountability Office (GAO) had this to say about the realized cost of defense in 2010:

quote:
serious financial management problems at the Department of Defense (DOD) that have prevented DOD’s financial statements from being auditable


They placed the actual cost of defense expenditures in the 1.1 to 1.4 trillion dollar range. Even the lower end of this figure is far above the 895 billion dollars quoted in your link with specific regards to defense spending.

You wine and cry about "wasting money on old people", but you turn a blind eye on the fact that the scheduled budget for the DOD alone was $663.8 billion and actual spending came in at 929 billion on only 38.9 billion dollars in net revenue (from brokering arms sales). That hard DOD figure alone is more than the entire total of 2010 defense expenditure quoted by your link.

The DOD overspent to the tune of 226.3 billion dollars and all the comptroller had to say was this:

quote:
'although the financial statements are not auditable for FY 2010, the Department's financial managers are meeting warfighter needs'


That's right, they didn't recommend a complete audit or any form of action that might lead to them being held accountable; in fact, they made recommendations that no corrective measures be taken.

Meanwhile, most of that additional expenditures were not additional support costs for the troops, but instead money went into the pockets of private defense contractors as the DOD swallowed up project cost overruns. Look at the financial results for any defense contractor, when war is as steadily profitable as it is today, we are guaranteed to see more of it.

But the fact that the numbers in the link are flawed doesn't seem matter to you because they fit your agenda.

When you go through the work of the sites author (Christopher Chantrill), you find out that he has also authored other works that attack social/medical spending and other works that prop up military spending. Ergo, I have strong reason to believe that his numbers are cooked to support his agenda and that you would accept these cooked numbers to support yours.

A look at the GAO numbers show that the author overstated:

Department of Transportation by 26 billion
Department of Education by 57 billion
Social Security by 59 billion
Medicare & Medicaid by 36 billion

All figures are available from the numerous documents on the GAO website.


RE: Waste
By Iaiken on 5/25/2011 3:54:01 PM , Rating: 2
Waste a million here and a million there and soon you have wasted a billing... Funny how arithmetic works that way isn't it?


RE: Waste
By Gzus666 on 5/25/2011 3:56:29 PM , Rating: 1
More funny how you don't read crap and parrot what other idiots say without understanding what I said. Look at the budget of this country, I posted it a few posts up and you will see what I mean when I say start big.

Funny how reading comprehension works that way, isn't it?


RE: Waste
By Iaiken on 5/25/2011 4:04:29 PM , Rating: 2
Pretentious aren't we?


RE: Waste
By YashBudini on 5/25/2011 7:51:51 PM , Rating: 2
A hypocrite as well.


RE: Waste
By INeedCache on 5/26/2011 1:52:23 PM , Rating: 2
"Our society must make it right and possible for old people not to fear the young or be deserted by them, for the test of a civilization is the way that it cares for its helpless members." - Pearl S. Buck

I believe that. Sadly, some do not.



RE: Waste
By Iaiken on 5/25/2011 3:56:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
billing = billion


stupid auto-correct...


RE: Waste
By icanhascpu on 5/25/2011 5:29:12 PM , Rating: 1
Because its a good potshot at Apple. And frankly the reality distortion field around DT means Anti-Apple article = lots of goodness for mick.

Its just too easy.


RE: Waste
By Insurgence on 5/25/2011 7:03:15 PM , Rating: 2
It is the fact that this is not the only incident of this happening within our government. If it was, I'd just say discipline those involved and move on, but seeing as how this is just a simple example of our governments mismanagement of its money, it should be taken seriously. Especially now that the nation is reaching its debt cap.


RE: Waste
By shin0bi272 on 5/27/2011 7:13:32 AM , Rating: 1
not to totally agree with you but as an example the government gave a grant to the national science foundation to study a shrimp on a treadmill... cost us .... 1.5million dollars!


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