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Apple is promising a big Black Friday sale. For now it is offering unusual discounts on its last-gen Mac notebooks.  (Source: Apple)
Even Apple offers to pricematch retailers this weeks MacBook sales promotion

Apple traditionally is not known for big sales or price cuts.  Rather, its computers are known for selling at a premium -- about twice the price of Windows machines on average.  The company has also always enjoyed massive profit margins on its iPod hardware, particularly at the high capacity end where it charges high markups.  Combined with Apple's current popularity, the high prices have added up to big money for Apple.

However, Apple has recently made a rather surprising announcement that shows that it is no more recession-proof than other retailers -- it's cutting prices. 

Today the formerly $999 white MacBook (the last generation model) is going to be on sale for $899.99 at BestBuy, $899.95 at B&H Photo, $899.00 at Amazon and $868.99 at Club Mac and Mac Mall.  The web is plastered with ads for the Macs on sale, a rather foreign sight.

Even Apple's own store, where the MacBook still sells for $999 will sell you MacBook at the sale price.  The store has announced a formal guarantee to match any competitive retailer's price, so you only have to speak up to get an $899 MacBook direct from Apple itself.

Apple has also put up a pea-green teaser, which promises more discounts from Apple CEO Steve Jobs and company.  It states, "Come back to the Apple Online Store this Friday for a special one-day-only Christmas shopping event. You'll find dozens of great iPod, iPhone and Mac gift ideas - all with free delivery."

Many are rather skeptical of the apparent Black Friday sale from Apple as the phrase "ideas" in Apple speak often means accessories, indicating a sale on Apple paraphernalia, not their devices themselves.

While Apple has been known to put on such Black Friday promotions along with back to school sales and the occasional closeout offer, the new sales through retail channels are very much a new development. 

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Not that hot
By mdogs444 on 11/26/2008 11:11:23 AM , Rating: 5
Sale or not, I think I'd rather stick with one of those nice $399 laptop deals, and get a 32" Samsung LCD as well.




RE: Not that hot
By JasonMick (blog) on 11/26/2008 11:24:13 AM , Rating: 5
I'd agree its not terribly hot, but for those who have to buy a Mac (like my grad. school project partner, who despite my repeated explanations thinks Vista computers are all "buggy and have viruses" because the "Mac commercials said that"), I guess it's something...

Really, I've perused the ad-scans from Circuit City, BB, and others and have been pretty unimpressed. They're really not cutting much off prices -- not more than $100 at least, even for "doorbusters".

The only really good promotions I've seen is through Amazon, and that's through a purely contest basis, so that only halfway counts.


RE: Not that hot
By Motoman on 11/26/2008 11:49:02 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
I'd agree its not terribly hot, but for those who have to buy a Mac (like my grad. school project partner, who despite my repeated explanations thinks Vista computers are all "buggy and have viruses" because the "Mac commercials said that"), I guess it's something...


...that is 99.9% of the reason why people buy Apple products right there. Marketing to the credulous.


RE: Not that hot
By Circle T on 11/26/2008 12:24:01 PM , Rating: 5
As someone who as used computers, both Mac and PC, for well over 20 years now, I disagree. I use a Mac currently. Not because I've been marketed at to believe Windows has issues, or a is buggy, or anything like that. I've used Vista, and it is very good. And from what I've seen, Win7 looks to be an even more refined version.

I use a Mac because it does things the way I like them, and it works how I want. If I spent time using Vista long enough, I'm sure I could get comfortable using it as well. But, for the last 6 years, my main home machine has been a Mac of some form. I don't hate Windows, I just really enjoy OSX.

I agree, there is some shoddy (good?) marketing going on, getting people to believe that Windows is just a giant mess. But, please don't just lump all Apple users into basically one huge group of know-nothings. Sure, there are people who don't know better. But there are plenty of people like that using Windows as well. I can't tell you how people are shocked when I tell them the simple fact that you actually CAN get MS Office for Mac.

In general, outside of the heavy internet users, who read up on this stuff everyday, there is a lot of people out there who just don't know better. And that comes from both sides. If all that Apple relied on was false marketing to get users, people would eventually realize that the products weren't good, and word of mouth would stop it. But, the user base continues to grow, and products continue to sell in greater numbers, so something must be working. Not just the marketing.

So please stop with the "Mac is dumb, and so are its users" stuff. It's really old now.


RE: Not that hot
By mydogfarted on 11/26/2008 12:38:20 PM , Rating: 3
thank you. I've also been using computers of some sort since the early 80's, am a programmer/sys op/hardware/network tech for a small programming house that uses most major OSes (Windows, HP-UX, AIX, LINUX, i5/OS, z/OS) and I chose Mac over Windows after the Mac Mini came out. Bought a Mini to see what the fuss was about and get used to OS X, since we develop some multi-platform apps. I fell in love with OS X because it just plain works.

When they moved to Intel chips, I immediately bought a MacBook Pro, so I could have a combined OS X and WinXP environment for gaming. Now that games are coming with OS X ports on release day, I rarely use the XP partition on my machine.

Over priced? Perhaps. But the things I use my Mac for(photo editing, video editing, gaming, browsing "adult content"), it's rock solid and damn sexy.

Not to mention, living in a multi-mac household, I can upgrade up to FIVE machines to the next release of the OS for $150. How much is each upgrade license of Vista?


RE: Not that hot
By Mitch101 on 11/26/2008 2:30:56 PM , Rating: 5
Less because the cost of each machine is $400.00 or more less than an Apple.


RE: Not that hot
By Dark Legion on 11/27/2008 1:08:10 AM , Rating: 2
And we don't have to pay for service packs as well.


RE: Not that hot
By gochichi on 11/27/2008 6:16:50 AM , Rating: 2
Windows XP SP3 is free of charge. It's been 6+ years and counting and xp users continue to have an up to date, highly compatible OS at no additional charge.

Mac OS X service packs are about once a year.


RE: Not that hot
By Penti on 11/28/2008 5:24:43 AM , Rating: 2
Well only if you got a six year old computer or six year old retail license.

And btw the Server 2003 R2 update did cost money (you needed new CALs too).

It was something like 18 months between earlier releases. And you can still use tiger but you will only get security updates. Earlier is unsupported though. Of course it's valid criticism but MS did the same thing or even worse with Server 2003 R2 where you didn't only need a new OS license but also new CALs for the users. Something costing a lot. CALs costs something like 40 dollars per user/device or 150 if you needed new TS CALs. I.e. more then upgrading a MAC/OS X desktop. Of course that's retail licenses though, Volume licenses with SA would be different, but they still costs money.


RE: Not that hot
By kelmon on 11/28/2008 11:24:27 AM , Rating: 2
Mac OS X Service Packs tend to land about once every 3-months but that frequency can vary wildly. 10.5.6 is due to arrive any day now so that makes the average about once every 2-months with Leopard at the moment.

Still, I have no idea why you'd be crowing about XP SP3. Sure, XP SP2 was a big release but was there actually anything in XP SP3? Damned if I've noticed anything.


RE: Not that hot
By Mitch101 on 11/26/2008 2:28:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So please stop with the "Mac is dumb, and so are its users" stuff. It's really old now.


Someone needs to Tell that to the Apple Marketing team.

I believe the reason it started was because of Windows people are getting tired of hearing how the OS is horrible when it really isn't. Really its Apple that hasn't bothered to move on and finally tell us what makes a Mac any good or even better than Vista.

Tell you what when Apple stops doing it I will stop pointing out Apple's flaws and prices.


RE: Not that hot
By michaelheath on 11/26/2008 2:37:32 PM , Rating: 5
Agreed. I've been using computers since I was a child (and when I was a child, IBM OS/2 and the Apple II were the computer choices), and I've used both Mac OS as well as Windows in almost all of their forms since the late 1980's. I remember all of the shining moments as well as the blunders of each company. As an adult looking back, I can definitely say that those who were well-informed moved forward with the operating system that worked best for them.

When I was in high school, I used media production workstations that ran Windows because they were the best choice for programs like Premiere and 3D Studio Max. When an iMac came along with the first version of iMovie, it blew me away as to how simple it was to quickly edit DV film, add titles and music, and then post a final product. Was it as deep a program as Premiere? No, but it was a hell of a lot easier to use, and the iMac became the machine to go to for quick & dirty video editing in the production office. When Final Cut became available, half the Windows machines were switched out for Apples.

These days, barring the personal needs of particular programs, most people can get away using either operating system and it really is a matter of personal preference. I like Mac OS X for it's organization, it's still one of the best platforms for quick & easy media organization, editing, and playback for the less demanding user, and, best of all from a support perspective, you can call Apple if you're having a Mac OS related issue, which is simply something you cannot (reliably) do with any other computer manufacturer. I still use Windows for gaming, but most of my time is spent in OS X.

Are there things I would do differently were I the CEO of Apple? Sure. I think everyone would be happy if there were a customizable machine between the iMac and the Mac Pro. I'd also love it if they got with the times and at least provide the option for on-site tech support rather than dragging your machine to a Genius Bar at an Apple store to get personal help (and I'd also like to have 'geniuses' that actually know what they're talking about). I'd also get serious with the game developer community instead of having the entire Mac community hold their breath until while they wait for a game they want to play to be ported over from Windows.

Do I have to bat down people who buy Mac OS for all the wrong reasons? Constantly. The Apple marketing machine is doing what they do best: Making people believe their product is the best product. I have to tell people all the time that Apple is vulnerable to viruses, malware, hacking, & spam, and protecting yourself on a Mac is just as important as it is on a Windows machine. I also have to constantly dispel the rumor that Apple is the better multimedia OS, which is a debatable subject at best, depending on what you're looking for. I also have to remind people that Windows XP won't be around forever, and buying a new computer with and XP downgrade is not necessarily a wise decision especially with newer hardware.

I quite often find myself telling people Windows Vista deserves a more fair shake than it's getting. It's a more complete solution than any other version of the OS, and it has great features built into it that most people probably don't even know are there. What I think part of the problem with Microsoft is that it doesn't know how to market those features. If Microsoft had put out ads similar to the iPhone commercials that literally show what you could do with the OS (e.g.: the multimedia features, search engine, etc.), I'm sure more customers would be aware of it's capabilities rather than it's inabilities: I'd take one semi-informative ad over any Seinfeld or Mojave Experiment ad anytime.

Another part of the problem is many software and component manufacturers weren't ready in January '07 with working drivers or program updates, and months of hearing 'It doesn't work yet' or 'You have to buy a new version' is not good for any company, no matter who you are. The third part of the problem is customers weren't prepared for how huge the OS is (which is unavoidable if you intend on keeping a certain level of backwards compatibility; I'm certain that Apple would face a similar problem if they ditched their current file system for a new one).

My conclusion? Buy what works best for you, marketing and fanboyism be damned.


RE: Not that hot
By omnicronx on 11/26/2008 4:58:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
My conclusion? Buy what works best for you, marketing and fanboyism be damned.
Amen to that!


RE: Not that hot
By omnicronx on 11/26/2008 4:58:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So please stop with the "Mac is dumb, and so are its users" stuff. It's really old now.
You make some great points, generilizing all Mac users as 'Stupid' is obviously untrue. But.... Apples add campaign during the last 3-4 years have been aimed specifically at the people the other poster mentions, those who are easily swayed by a sales pitch then in which the presented facts are generally untrue.

Obviously there are many avid Mac users who know what they are doing, but I have to say that a great portion of the Mac user base really do believe these anti Windows commercials, and have bought their new system accordingly.

Generally when a novice user asks me which computer to buy, I point them to Apple. Personally I think you are overacting a bit, of course not all Mac users can be categorized as novice, but a vast majority can, in fact it is pretty much their business plan to sell to those that needs a computer that 'just works'.


RE: Not that hot
By Circle T on 11/26/2008 5:27:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Personally I think you are overacting a bit...

Is DT not a registered place for Oscar work? Damn. ;p
quote:
of course not all Mac users can be categorized as novice, but a vast majority can

My point this whole time isn't that just some Mac users are novice, but that a VERY LARGE majority of computer users as a whole are novice. It's not like roughly a Billion people bought Windows machines because they find Macs too easy. Many bought those machines because it is all they know, and they don't want to struggle learing something new. Which leads to...
quote:
...in fact it is pretty much their business plan to sell to those that needs a computer that 'just works'.

Again, my point all along. The original commenter was insinuating that basically everyone using a Mac was doing so only because they saw a commercial and want to be cool. When in fact, as you say, some just might find it easier to use. Or, in the case of many novices, less difficult.

I don't mean to overreact about this. But, it's just so funny when people try to group all users up and pin a single typecast on them. I mean, I really don't know who the hell I'm trying to impress with my little Mini. It's just a nice desktop that does the things I want very efficiently for me. Apparently that makes me an absurd conformist.


RE: Not that hot
By omnicronx on 11/26/2008 6:36:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
My point this whole time isn't that just some Mac users are novice, but that a VERY LARGE majority of computer users as a whole are novice.
While this may be true, I have to say that knowledgeable computer users are more likely to use Windows than OSX.
quote:
I don't mean to overreact about this. But, it's just so funny when people try to group all users up and pin a single typecast on them. I mean, I really don't know who the hell I'm trying to impress with my little Mini. It's just a nice desktop that does the things I want very efficiently for me. Apparently that makes me an absurd conformist.
I totally agree, There is nothing wrong with owning a Mac, I just personally cannot justify the price differential. Others can, so thats none of my business, although I do feel that Apple is only keeping themselves out of the business market in doing so.
As long as people use PC's at work, many will be reluctant to switch to Mac's, which once again goes back to what you were saying 'Many bought those machines because it is all they know, and they don't want to struggle learning something new. ' Even if it is dead easy.


RE: Not that hot
By Circle T on 11/26/2008 7:56:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
While this may be true, I have to say that knowledgeable computer users are more likely to use Windows than OSX.

That would be your opinion. And one that would be hard to prove. Not because I think otherwise (I have no opinion on the matter). I just really have no clue how you can make a claim like that and possibly prove it.


RE: Not that hot
By omnicronx on 11/27/2008 8:36:15 AM , Rating: 2
Its not really a matter of opinion. Almost every computer programmer that I know works in either a windows or unix environment. The fact that many of the knowledgeable people around the world learn and use their skills in a business environment, which 99% of the time is unix/windows based.

Also the difference in total users for each OS, you can't merely take ratios into account here, regardless of how many more windows users there are world around.

Furthermore I don't need to prove anything, Windows has 9 times the amount of users that OSX does. Unless you know something I don't, its pretty safe to make the inference that there are more knowledgeable users that use Windows.
Why you would make a statement like that without using a little common sense is beyond me.


RE: Not that hot
By Circle T on 11/27/2008 10:48:41 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Its not really a matter of opinion.

Yes, your original statement was. You made the claim that...
quote:
I have to say that knowledgeable computer users are more likely to use Windows than OSX.

That is just an opinion, and like I said before, one that I personally would have a hard time proving if I made it. Now, if you are just trying to say that there are more Windows users in the world, so by nature of the size of its user base, the number of "knowledgeable users" is higher, then sure. But, that isn't the original claim you made. Thus why I questioned it.


RE: Not that hot
By omnicronx on 11/27/2008 11:03:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Now, if you are just trying to say that there are more Windows users in the world, so by nature of the size of its user base, the number of "knowledgeable users" is higher, then sure.
How much more obvious do I have to be? Its a mix of both, you obviously do not work in a technology field if you really think there are more skilled Mac users. I don't need proof, I live it every day, Windows is the primary business environment, as such skilled workers are more likely to be using windows, this is not rocket science. As I said this is more of an inference than opinion as my statement is based on pretty basic observations, not merely my opinion.

95%+ people go to school to learn in an windows/unix environment, if you want to learn OSX you either have to learn it on your own, or find some niche program (they do exist but not on the same scale).

There is really no debating this, I am not pro any OS, they all have their upsides and downsides. Most scientific discoveries are based on inferences and rarely cold hard fact. I think my inference is well founded, and you have yet to give me a reason to think otherwise.


RE: Not that hot
By Circle T on 11/27/2008 11:53:20 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
you obviously do not work in a technology field

I do.
quote:
...if you really think there are more skilled Mac users.

I don't.

But, that wasn't my claim either. Please reread what I said. I'm not arguing the fact that most of the skilled people working in the tech world WORK WITH Windows. But, that wasn't your original claim. I can see now it was just poorly worded by you, and thus poorly interpreted by me.

Your original claim sounded to me like you were saying that if you know what you're doing, you use Windows. Thus, anyone using a Mac doesn't really know what they are doing, otherwise they would use Windows too. That was what I disagreed with, which now that you've explained yourself better, I can see wasn't your claim. My apologies.

But, please note that I made no claims of YOUR job or intelligence. It would be nice to think the same could be said from you. I know that is asking a lot on DailyTech, let alone the internet. But really.


RE: Not that hot
By kelmon on 11/27/2008 3:18:57 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
While this may be true, I have to say that knowledgeable computer users are more likely to use Windows than OSX.


Well, speaking personally, I received my MSc in IT with Distinction a couple of years ago and I use a Mac. I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet here but I don't understand why a knowledge of computers would give a predisposition to run Windows. Quite the opposite in my own case since I am quite familiar with Windows's foibles and know that I don't have to put up with them on a Mac.

There are plenty of good reasons to run Windows but simply being knowledgeable about computers surely is not one of them. Frankly, I'd be more inclined to suggest that Linux is a more likely option, particularly with academics.

Still, I absolutely agree with the point that people buy Windows because it is what they use at work and it is what they know. I personally believe that you won't switch to a Mac (or anything else) until you've had a bad experience with your current computer sufficient that you are prepared to try something new in the hope that there is something better. If you already know and like Windows then why go through all the hassle of trying to learn something else? No rational person would do that.


RE: Not that hot
By omnicronx on 11/27/2008 8:39:23 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not saying they don't exist, obviously there are knowledgeable Mac users, and I never meant to say that being computer knowledgeable is a reason for running windows, it just has a massive user base compared to OSX, and is the primary business environment world around.(which ties into your last statement)


RE: Not that hot
By kelmon on 11/27/2008 9:52:51 AM , Rating: 2
No argument from me on that. I might not like it but suggesting that the world doesn't run on Windows would be a bit like suggesting that the Earth doesn't revolve around the sun.


RE: Not that hot
By jonmcc33 on 11/27/2008 1:33:45 AM , Rating: 2
Mac isn't dumb but it's designed for dumber users. People who pay a premium for Mac are also dumb.


RE: Not that hot
By KeypoX on 11/27/2008 2:59:04 AM , Rating: 2
The thing is mac has such a small suite of software. Its a pain to use for more power users. Now browsing the internet yes it does it as well as windows (sorta, IE FF seems to run slower in mac).

And thats just it, you CAN install office for MAC. Its not Office, its office for MAC. Its not the same and if you have used it you know how bad it is. But once again for basic tasks it works the same. But for power users your left out in the dark. IE data analysis toolkit and the + toolkit. But for basic of course it works, but not as well.

Its very hard for mac users to ever admit it but mac is just not at the level of windows.

Its not that its "dumb" its just not as functional or affordable, or upgradable, or customizable. If you buy a Mac you are not a rational person, which is fine.


RE: Not that hot
By kelmon on 11/27/2008 3:32:32 AM , Rating: 2
Can I just point out that Office:mac is not a bad product? For example, the Microsoft Mac Business Unit listened to its customers when designing Office:mac 2008 and didn't bring the Ribbon interface over from Office 2007 because no one likes it.

In some respects, however, I agree with you. Microsoft has built a very diverse platform whereas the Mac is narrower in scope. Still, if you fall within that scope then the Mac does things very well and I for one would not switch back to Windows. For example, I wouldn't do photography on any other platform and neither will most pro photographers because Windows is still weak in this area (even in Vista it can't manage ICC profiles correctly). Whether Windows or the Mac is right for you depends solely on what you want to do.

Ultimately, the crux of your argument depends on the definition of a "power user", which is a vague and meaningless definition that no doubt differs depending upon who you ask.


RE: Not that hot
By inighthawki on 11/28/2008 12:39:20 AM , Rating: 2
Where do u get ur statistics from? Almost everyone i know loves the ribbon interface, and a lot of developers die for the chance to incorporate it into their apps because of its popularity. Some people may not like it, and in fact the only people i know who dont like it have been from posters in these comments sections of dailytech.


RE: Not that hot
By kelmon on 11/26/2008 12:35:43 PM , Rating: 2
Not really - all you have to do is use Windows and you want something else. The genius of Apple's marketing is not that it says that the Mac is better than Windows but rather that there is a choice to have a computer without it. I realise that there is a lot of people here who think that the sun shine's outside the backside of Windows but there is also a heck of a lot of people who think it's the devil and knowing that something else is available is attractive.

Sorry.


RE: Not that hot
By Motoman on 11/26/2008 12:42:31 PM , Rating: 5
I don't buy that. And for the record, I grew up on the Apple II series...so if anything, I was pre-disposed to be an Apple fan.

I know *lots* of people who own Macs and buy other Apple products - everybody does. I can say with complete confidence that none of them chose to buy a Mac over a PC for any reason other than they were swayed by propaganda. And don't get me started on the iPlod and iPhoney and such.

The greatest irony I have ever found is that Apple people think they're expressing some kind of deep individuality by buying Apple products...when the reality is that there is no group of people anywhere in the world more conformist, to the point of absurdity, than Apple buyers.


RE: Not that hot
By kelmon on 11/26/2008 1:31:14 PM , Rating: 2
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. I very much see those adverts as being for people who curse Windows and who think that Windows is the only option, which is a fair expectation given that most shops only PCs that run Windows.

Personally, I switched before the ad campaigns started (plus those only really exist in the US) when I was looking for something that wasn't Windows, which had seriously got on my tits.

What would be most interesting from your group of Apple users is to know how many are switching back to Windows. I mean, these days, why would you?


RE: Not that hot
By Mitch101 on 11/26/2008 2:33:27 PM , Rating: 2
I can state all the MacBook people I know run Windows on them now. This could be the reason Apple charges so much for the hardware. Its because most of those people wont be buying the next release of the Apple OS.


RE: Not that hot
By kelmon on 11/26/2008 5:14:03 PM , Rating: 2
Well, speaking personally, I run Windows on mine since that's the only way to connect to a load of web applications at work and, particularly, SharePoint doesn't tend to play nicely with anything other than IE. I love the Mac OS but I'm a realist so I keep Windows on standby for when it is needed. However, it is only run for work - anything I want to do on my own time gets done in the Mac OS.

With respect to the next release, that's going to be a hard sell, assuming that they charge for it. Given the lack of features that you can take screenshots or videos of, they're going to have to sell the next version based on stuff like benchmarks and really exciting barcharts...


RE: Not that hot
By tjr508 on 11/27/2008 12:54:20 PM , Rating: 2
You just said it best. OSX is a toy, nothing more.


RE: Not that hot
By gochichi on 11/27/2008 5:42:43 AM , Rating: 2
I switched back to Windows. Vista switched me back actually. Pricing and the bevy of wonderful hardware options at better prices switched me back.

Why would I? Well, let's see... I got a PowerBook, spent a pretty penny on it and it was only marginally more powerful than my iBook. My PowerBook was like a Toyota Paseo (A Tercel with a sporty body). Then they switched processor types after cursing Intel's name for years. Software incompatibility thereafter (unless you call slow as molasses emulation "compatibility"... yes I'VE TRIED IT THANK YOU)

Basically, most complaints you could possibly have about Vista are tenfold under Mac OS. Windows users are so spoiled that they don't even know when to stop complaining. Every single game that runs on XP runs on Vista. It's a matter on right-clicking and selecting compatibility mode (this is easy enough to learn to do, it's unfortunate that mass ignorance has overshadowed the robust design). There are about ten pieces of software that are worth a hoot that run on a Mac OS X.

Mac's top two features:
-Boot camp -> The ability to become a real computer and run Windows.
- Parellels or Fusion... the ability to run Windows on top of Mac OS.

Do you want to tick your team off? Use Keynote instead of PowerPoint. Use Pages instead of Word. Both of these pieces of software would run great on Windows, but Apple is 100% about its monopoly. Seriuosly, if it weren't for the blind hatred of Microsoft, Apple would never get away with 1/3 of the junk they do.

Apple can't even have the common courtesy of having a Pages-viewer for Windows (and Linux), even more annoying, they don't offer a free cross-platform Keynote viewer. Microsoft offers these for LINUX!

Finally, and this one is enough to switch from OS X to Vista anyday: I LIKE THIS YEAR'S HARDWARE, THIS YEAR.


RE: Not that hot
By Circle T on 11/26/2008 1:51:18 PM , Rating: 3
So, what you're REALLY saying is...

A ) Everyone you know is an idiot
B ) Everyone you know is a conformist
C ) Everyone you know has no opinion of their own
D ) You are super smart, have the "Correct" opinion, and won't be swayed by silly marketing.

Glad we cleared all that up. And, I'm glad I'm not one of your friends.


RE: Not that hot
By Motoman on 11/26/2008 3:00:19 PM , Rating: 2
..."everyone?" I said "lots" - not everyone.

What I'm really saying is that *lots* of people are swayed by marketing. Lots of people want to conform. Lots of people will credulously accept and adopt marketing messages with no further thought in terms of forming an informed opinion.

I do think I'm smart, and I do think I have the "correct" opinion, otherwise I wouldn't have anything to post. I am negatively affected by "silly" marketing (which in my book, is essentially all marketing). Even if Apple's advertising wasn't insipid, smug, and condescending, I would still dislike them proportionally to the amount of advertising I see.


RE: Not that hot
By Circle T on 11/26/2008 4:26:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I do think I have the "correct" opinion

You don't have the correct opinion, you just have AN opinion. And apparently, it's hard for you to believe that anyone could make a choice that doesn't mirror your own opinion on the subject.

Maybe I should ask you. What is the correct color to like? The correct pizza topping enjoy? The correct sports team to follow? I hope you let me know what I should conform to with those items, because I don't want to go having my own feelings on the matter. It will only lead to mockery.
quote:
Even if Apple's advertising wasn't insipid, smug, and condescending, I would still dislike them proportionally to the amount of advertising I see.

At least the truth finally came out. You don't like Apple. Which is fine. There are companies in the world I don't like as well. But, just because some other person happens to like something you don't, that doesn't mean they are just buying into conformity.

People have opinions that differ from you. But, you don't want to believe that, what with your CORRECT opinions and all. I use OSX because I like it, it does what I want, and very rarely gives me problems. But no, to you I just want to be hip and cool, like the ads tell me.


RE: Not that hot
By Motoman on 11/26/2008 7:40:51 PM , Rating: 2
...so you don't think *your* opinion is correct? WTF? If you didn't think my opinion was wrong, and your's was right, you wouldn't be posting here. Kettle to pot...thou art black...over.

As for the second part, my point there was to describe my general dislike for advertising, period. Apple advertises like mad...you can't swing a cat (not that I would) without hitting an Apple ad. I dislike all companies in proportion to how much they push their ads in front of my face...and if their ads are particularly offensive, then I dislike them even more.

That, however, is completely beside the point of the massive drive to conform and credulously consume the Apple propaganda that seems to swell the numbers of Apple buyers. Obviously, Apple advertising works magnificently on huge numbers of people.


RE: Not that hot
By Circle T on 11/26/2008 8:42:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
...so you don't think *your* opinion is correct? WTF?

No, I don't. An opinion is a person's view on a subjective matter. I think Pepsi is better than Coke. That is a subjective opinion on a drink. I can NOT have an opinion on an objective matter. It just isn't my opinion that 3+3=6, it's a fact.

If I knew 5 people who drove a Prius, but all 5 were overweight women, the statement "Everyone I know who drives a Prius is a fat woman" would be correct. But, if I said that "Basically 99.9% of all Prius owners are fat women", that would be off-base, and ridiculous. You may know a lot of easily duped, conformist fools who use Macs. But, that doesn't mean that we all are.

So no, I don't think your opinion is wrong. I just disagree with it. You can like Windows all you want, and hate on Apple all you want. But, your stance on this issue is that you use Windows, and anyone who uses a Mac is just looking to try and fit in with the cool kids. You don't take any personal preference into account. You are making objective statements about subjective things. Which is not possible.

Again, feel free to bash Apple all you want. I disprove of many things they do as well. But just know that there are many more Mac users out there than the ones you know. And when you make "99.9%" statements and things like that, it isn't a fact that you judge others against. Too many people use personal, anecdotal (made up?) situations as hard facts, and then use those "facts" to judge others.


RE: Not that hot
By Motoman on 11/27/2008 2:08:14 AM , Rating: 2
...you're making a presumption that I'm some huge Microsoft fanboy...which I'm not. I really dislike Microsoft for a great many reasons.

However, I have to disagree with your assertion that I am making "objective statements about subjective things." I stand behind my statement that the vast majority of Apple buyers are simply bought into the propaganda. Big time. I have been around this industry a very long time...and have had contact with essentially every major industry, and have a pretty good grasp of what goes on. It's a 3+3=6 kind of thing. You can choose to believe otherwise.


RE: Not that hot
By Circle T on 11/27/2008 11:24:09 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
However, I have to disagree with your assertion that I am making "objective statements about subjective things.

Then you simply don't know the difference, and seemingly no explanation from me will help.
quote:
It's a 3+3=6 kind of thing. You can choose to believe otherwise.

I don't believe otherwise. That is an objective math problem, with a correct answer. But in your world, 3+3=grumpy, because you can somehow categorize an entire group of users, with essentially no knowledge of them.

As I said before, maybe all the Mac users you know are simple-minded conformists, just looking to be cool. That might be true. But, you don't know ALL Mac users, nor do you know each and every one of their decisions for purchase. So any claim speaking to that entire user base is simply made up, and irrelevant to the discussion.
quote:
...and have a pretty good grasp of what goes on.

Yes, except when it comes to objective and subjective, which is the key to the discussion at hand. But then again, you do also claim to have "correct" opinions. Maybe you also figured out some way to mix math with emotion. This could turn the entire math and science fields upside down. Can't wait to hear your theory.


RE: Not that hot
By Motoman on 11/27/2008 12:47:33 PM , Rating: 2
You clearly are unwilling to change your position, and accusing me of misunderstanding subjectivity vs. objectivity isn't helping. I am speaking from decades of observation of having watched the personal computer market come into existence. Just reporting the facts as I have witnessed them. I have no more provence to mis-report those facts than you do to accuse me of distorting them.


RE: Not that hot
By Circle T on 11/27/2008 4:18:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You clearly are unwilling to change your position

I didn't know it was in need of a change?
quote:
Just reporting the facts as I have witnessed them.

quote:
I have no more provence to mis-report those facts

I must have missed it. When did you say anything that can even relate to a "fact?" I've seen a lot of opinions from you on the matter, but nothing that can be called a hard fact.

Then again, coming from someone who thinks opinions are capable of being "right," it isn't surprising that you would also consider them "facts" as well.


RE: Not that hot
By michael2k on 11/26/2008 2:16:53 PM , Rating: 2
I suspect your number is way off. Probably more like 50% of the reason (or if you like, 100% of the reason 50% of the buyers).

And besides which, would you rather have these idiots playing on your team? Let Apple's tech support staff deal with them instead of you, right?


RE: Not that hot
By Motoman on 11/26/2008 3:03:26 PM , Rating: 2
Ha! OK, props on that one. Made me giggle.

Sure, I exaggerated the % a bit for effect. But I stand committed to the idea that it's a lot closer to 99% than 50%. Ask a roomful of people why they bought a Mac instead of a PC and they'll just spout the advertising propaganda..."it's easy to use," "no viruses," "doesn't crash" etc. Bleh.


RE: Not that hot
By Circle T on 11/26/2008 4:32:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ask a roomful of people why they bought a Mac instead of a PC and they'll just spout the advertising propaganda...

As opposed to asking a similar sized group of Windows users, many of whom would probably say..

"We had a choice?"


RE: Not that hot
By Motoman on 11/26/2008 7:48:26 PM , Rating: 2
...or rather "why should I care?"

You shouldn't. OS X, Winders, Linux, etc. are, from a consumer standpoint, all the same thing. For the vast majority of users out there, the OS on their computer really makes no difference whatsoever...they all have slick GUIs, they're all built with wildly more features than they're ever going to use, they all make the computer easy to use, so on and so forth.

So then, as a consumer, why would I pay 1.5X (or more) for a Mac vs. X for a PC when, for all intents and purposes, they do the exact same thing? Not to mention the utterly pragmatic view of the amount of software that is only available for Windows, and other such things.

To the basic consumer, you have essentially shown them 2 toasters. Video toasters, if you like. Maybe even flying toasters. They both have 2 slots. They can both toast bread, bagels, and english muffins. They have similar crumb trays, similar designs, similar user interfaces, etc. One costs $20, and the other $30 or maybe $50. In the absence of any compelling reasons that can justify the marked difference in price, the obvious choice is to buy the $20 toaster.


RE: Not that hot
By kelmon on 11/27/2008 3:46:04 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
OS X, Winders, Linux, etc. are, from a consumer standpoint, all the same thing.


Not true. The difference is the applications that they run and, ultimately, that is the important thing. Switching is, typically, an enormous pain in the backside and one that will likely be costly unless you are going over to Linux. Anyone with a reasonable library of software will be predisposed to buying a computer that will run their software, so in that respect the OS is important to the customer. Beyond that I would largely agree that the basic OS itself probably doesn't make too much difference these days.

Still, with respect to your question about why you would choose a more expensive Mac over a PC, the answers to that are probably quite long. One question to ask immediately is why someone would buy a premium PC over a generic one since they both do the same thing? Beyond that you need to go into detail. Certainly, both platforms allow the user to do the same things, in general terms, but in detail they can differ quite wildly and it's the details that matter to the customer. Personally, I took a risk on a Mac when XP really annoyed me and I really didn't know what I was getting myself into (the theory was that it had to be better and, thankfully, I think it was). For customers today it is much easier to see the details because you can walk into an Apple Store in quite a lot of countries and just have a play to see if you like what you see. Good reviews in the press probably helps a lot too.


RE: Not that hot
By Motoman on 11/27/2008 12:58:09 PM , Rating: 2
...the vast majority of users do nothing but surf the web, email, listen to music, do word processing and maybe the occasional spreadsheet. The much larger volume of software available for Windows only comes into play for a smaller audience, and as such is always a secondary consideration. Having said that, one thing that Macolytes just can't seem to wrap their heads around is that there is *nothing* that a Mac does "better" than a PC. That excuse is old, tired, and an invalid.

Granted the first sentance, it absolutely makes no difference to the vast majority of users what OS they use. These basic users, who are the overwhelming majority of computer buyers, have not the slightest reason to prefer one OS over another from any reasons such as ease of use, functionality, etc.

Now if you are, as you say, already "in the hole" in on OS by having invested a lot of money in applications for that OS...well, first of all who's fault is that? And what perversion of economics says you should just keep spending money on the more expensive platform than cutting your losses and going to the less expensive platform the next time you upgrade anyway? That's like the major projects that always confound me with the logic that goes like "well, we've already put 10 million dollars into this thing, which is far too much to have spent on it for far too little, but we should just keep dumping money into it because that's what we have always done."


RE: Not that hot
By gstrickler on 11/26/2008 8:06:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ask a roomful of people why they bought a Mac instead of a PC and they'll just spout the advertising propaganda..."it's easy to use," "no viruses," "doesn't crash" etc.

Maybe the "advertising propaganda" is accurate (or close to accurate). Maybe the "advertising propaganda" is actually being taken from the users rather than the other way around. Mac users have been making those claims for many years before Apple started using them in their ads.

Nearly every successful company advertises heavily, that's how they get to be successful. How did MS and Windows get to be successful? Lots of advertising, and lots of failures. Remember these? Windows 3.0 or earlier? Windows ME? MS Bob? Any early version of MS-Word for DOS or Windows?

I've left Win95 and Win98 off that list, even though they were terribly unstable and insecure, commercially they were "successful".

What about Windows NT 4.0? Compared to Win95/98, it was very stable and secure, but it was a commercial failure (i.e. it didn't pick up significant market share except in the Server market). It was far better than Win9x and ran most software that ran on Win9x, but they didn't advertise it much.

Question: Where did MS Word and Excel originate and become popular in a GUI? Answer: On a Mac.

So you don't like Apple. Who cares? I don't like Microsoft. Who cares? I don't like Apple either. Who cares? I don't like Oracle. Who cares? All three act as monopolists, and I don't want to be one of the companies they target. Each also has some excellent products, including some "Best available" products.

I use and recommend products from all 3 of those companies that I don't like, because those are IMHO the best products available. For my purposes, and for for the "typical user", I think a Mac is a better choice than a Windows machine simply because the user doesn't have to learn a lot about computers to do the things they bought a computer to do.

That doesn't mean I recommend a Mac to everyone or for everyone. I sometimes tell my clients that a Windows machine is their best choice, especially when they regularly need to use hardware/software that is Windows only. Clients don't always follow my recommendations, sometimes choosing Windows when I recommend a Mac or choosing a "cheaper" machine. About 90% of the time it costs them more because they didn't follow my recommendation, but it's their choice and their money.


RE: Not that hot
By Motoman on 11/27/2008 2:18:10 AM , Rating: 1
...plenty of "maybes" in there. Apple propaganda isn't accurate...or close to accurate. Never was.

Microsoft advertises, as far as I can tell, vastly less than Apple does. They've put out lots of crap - I agree. They still put out lots of crap. Vista is shite, and Office 2007 is absolutely unusable. Come to think of it, I have no particular affection for much of anything they've done...it's just that a PC is the logical choice for a great many reasons.

For the record...I really didn't have stability issues with Win98. My position has always been that PC users make their own problems...a properly managed PC is perfectly stable.

...ummm, you think that Word and Excel were first released on the Mac - before Windows? OK, I have to admit I don't have the history book in my hand...but I find that hard to believe. And as for GUI innovation...my Amiga 500 beat the pants off of PC and Apples of the day. Workbench FTW! And OS/2 was great too. Just couldn't get any marketshare.

I have no particular love for Microsoft. Or Apple...or Oracle. As a rule I'd recommoned MySQL over Oracle...because it's a fine, capable product that isn't vastly overpriced. And I recommend PC over Mac because it's a fine, capable product that isn't vastly overpriced. And because of the vastly better software library, better availability of support, hardware, so on and so forth. From a functional standpoint, there is absolutely no differentiation between Mac and PC - they do the same effing thing. No point in spending more money for a Mac with a much smaller software library to choose from, et al, when a PC costs much less and can provide much more software et al.


RE: Not that hot
By inighthawki on 11/28/2008 12:48:54 AM , Rating: 2
You have your facts in the wrong places. The origins of Microsoft "Office" was for Macs, but Word/Excel originated BEFORE the office suite, for multi-platform use. Word/Excel != Office.


RE: Not that hot
By kelmon on 11/27/2008 3:07:32 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ask a roomful of people why they bought a Mac instead of a PC and they'll just spout the advertising propaganda..."it's easy to use," "no viruses," "doesn't crash" etc. Bleh.


I'm sorry but that's not propaganda. Each of those statements are potentially perfectly valid for the user and, frankly, I'd certainly cite the first one myself. More specifically, a Mac works the way that I want to, or at least much more than Windows ever did. The only iffy one is "doesn't crash" and that generally depends on what you are doing and whether you've installed any kernel extensions that weren't written well (yes, Logitech Control Centre, I am looking at you...). If you get a good PC then it shouldn't crash but there are a lot of bad ones and we have pretty new Dells in the office that produce a BSoD under XP still. If you've had a bad PC in the past then a Mac will likely seems like a breath of fresh air in comparison.

Basically, it all comes down to experiences. If you've had a bad experience with a PC then who are you to say that the Mac doesn't deliver what it is that the person you are asking is claiming? The PCs strength is also its weakness in that there are so many different configurations available that it can't deliver a consistently high level of satisfaction. If you've had a bad experience with one, what incentive is there for you to try another?


RE: Not that hot
By VashHT on 12/2/2008 11:57:40 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think that's his point, and honestly you're defending Apple way too much. Let me explain to you the situation, Mac commercials claim that Mac's can't get viruses and that they can not crash. Mac users think their Mac's can't get get viruses or crash. Experience does not matter here because the fact is that Mac's CAN get viruses and CAN crash. I know they rarely do, my PC rarely crashes but I won't say it's crash proof. My PC hasn't had a virus ever on it but I'm not going to pretend it's immune to viruses. This is what is annoying about Apple advertising, they've convinced people that both of these things are true (I've had many a Mac user pull these reasons out on me). Hell I even had a friend who replaced his dell notebook for a macbook pro because he wanted to look at pron without getting viruses (his exact words). He found out Apple's advertising was wrong the hard way (he ended up having to reinstall his OS), but it is very annoying when I'm talking to a Mac user and they're telling me how much better their Mac is than my PC because it's immune to viruses etc etc.


RE: Not that hot
By BruceLeet on 11/26/2008 11:42:28 PM , Rating: 2
If by grad. school project partner, you mean you, I guess it is something. =P

$899 I guess is impressive in the realm of Apple products, like a Macbook, but in general pc laptops, tis not that impressive anymore.


RE: Not that hot
By zolo111 on 11/30/2008 6:39:05 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'd agree its not terribly hot, but for those who have to buy a Mac (like my grad. school project partner, who despite my repeated explanations thinks Vista computers are all "buggy and have viruses" because the " Mac commercials said that"), I guess it's something...


I think it's because he/she read your articles.


Apple
By TomZ on 11/26/2008 11:19:36 AM , Rating: 1
Apple is probably the only company I can think of that I would never buy a product from. Between the high prices and arrogant marketing, as well as so many better alternatives available, I just don't get it.




RE: Apple
By InvertMe on 11/26/2008 11:35:21 AM , Rating: 2
I am a sane, reasonable and down to earth person (at least I like to think so) but every time I walk past the Mac Store I am instantly filled with a desire to do something horrible to the pseudo intellectual crowd I see shopping there.

The horde of 13 year old brain dead girls who crowd around the screen sending messages on their MySpace pages are sickening.

Apple is just feeding off unintelligent consumers who don't care (or more likely are incapable of understanding) how their computer works. Apple fills peoples brains with the idea that if you buy their product you will be instantly trendy and accepted.

I guess it works looking at how well Apple products seem to be selling but have you ever asked a Mac user why they like their Mac so much? Most (of the ones I have talked to) can not answer the question.

Bah... I am done with my rant..


RE: Apple
By teng029 on 11/26/2008 1:18:29 PM , Rating: 1
if you think that every mac customer is unintelligent and buys the product simply to be trendy, then you are as big an idiot as you claim those who buy apple products to be.

did it ever occur to you that maybe people buy products because it works for them?


RE: Apple
By gstrickler on 11/26/2008 3:44:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Apple is just feeding off unintelligent consumers who don't care (or more likely are incapable of understanding) how their computer works.


Why should anyone have to become a computer expert (or understand how "computers" work) to use a computer? How many people understand how their car works? What about a Microwave oven? Television?

I've been a software developer for 28 years. I've written firmware (in assembler), network drivers, communication software, databases, graphics primitives, operating system drivers and patches, end user applications, etc. I've also been a hardware tech, including component level repair. I've done some hardware design.

I make my living primarily by programming for DOS and Windows. I also support small and medium networks of Windows, Mac OS, Linux/Unix. I understand computers.

I use a Mac. Sure, I own some PCs so I can duplicate customer environments and so I can walk them through various situations via phone support. However, since I bought my MacBook Pro, I rarely use my PCs, I can duplicate most environments under VMware Fusion. In fact, I moved 6 months ago and haven't even connected my PCs after moving.

I use a Mac because it works and it requires very little maintenance. I spend very little time installing updates, dealing with compatibility or performance issues, or "futzing with" my Mac. In fact, each of my Windows PCs requires at least 1 more hour of my "support" time per month than my Mac. At my billing rate, that's more than $1000 per machine per year that Windows "costs" me. Even though I'm doing the work myself, that's time I don't have to work at a client, so it's actually money out of my pocket. For me, a Mac is a whole lot cheaper than Windows.

The same is true for my clients. I don't make much money off my Mac clients, because they don't require much support. My clients using Windows are essentially all my support business.

The "Macintosh Way" is to make the computer adapt to the user rather than make the user adapt to the computer. Try it, you might like it.


RE: Apple
By PhobosAnonomly on 11/26/2008 7:17:36 PM , Rating: 2
So I was walking down the isle at Sam's club and a HP desktop on display caught my eye. I toyed around with it a little bit and noticed how incredibly slow it was for having a 2.8 Ghz core 2 and six gigs of ram(running vista) My little conformist Mac-Book with a 2.2 ghz processor and a wimpy 1 gig of ram smokes this machine. So when folks say that Vista is slow they are not joking.

I used PC for nine tenths of my life. I gave mac a whirl about a year ago and quite simply put, its computing without the hassles.


Apple TV
By kelmon on 11/26/2008 1:35:16 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not in the market for a new Mac but I would be interested if Apple does a decent discount on the Apple TV, which by all accounts hasn't sold terribly well and therefore should be a prime candidate for a price cut. Previously I wasn't interested in it but we recently got a nice TV, I have no wish to buy either a dedicated Blu-ray player or one of the consoles, and the movie selection is increasingly nicely for the UK. I suspect that the current model may well be replaced in January but if the price is right on Friday then it'd make a nice Christmas present.




RE: Apple TV
By Gzus666 on 11/26/2008 2:51:58 PM , Rating: 2
How about you just throw your money into an open fire?


RE: Apple TV
By kelmon on 11/28/2008 2:49:16 AM , Rating: 2
Big deal (or lack thereof). 160GB Apple TV was £269 and today I can save a whopping £10.99. That's a full 4% discount right there.

I think not.


What about the new nVidia Macbooks
By mmntech on 11/26/2008 2:51:05 PM , Rating: 2
I'll let the rest of the DT regulars bash Apple and ask something relevant to the topic at hand. Any word on sales prices for the new Macbook? The old model is ok but I'd rather get one with a decent GPU at least, rather than that GMA X3100 garbage.




RE: What about the new nVidia Macbooks
By tdawg on 11/26/2008 5:13:09 PM , Rating: 2
When I saw the title of this article, I was hoping it was the new macbooks that were having their prices slashed. It'd be nice to get a new macbook with nvidia graphics for under $1000.


Shame on daily tech.
By gochichi on 11/27/2008 12:00:26 AM , Rating: 2
I hate Apple, I won't deny it. I'll be right up front about it. I hate Apple, and it's from first hand experience with the company and the way they do (or don't do) things.

With that out of the way. There is NOTHING, NOTHING AT ALL that's noteworthy about a white, obsolete MacBook for $899.00. I really don't get why Apple consistently gets these huge breaks in the form of free advertisement from everybody. This style of MacBook has long been available at this price. It's an old and heavily outdated model, and $899.00 is a hefty price for a laptop. Big deal. This is separate from my disdain of this company. I trust that when something makes a headline, it's somehow noteworthy. This is not. This is a geek's website, and this is irrelevant news to bargain shopping geeks.

For instance, if the NEW MacBook were $1100.00 for Black Friday... that would be noteworthy. Like I said, $899 for the tired "economy model" causes me to yawn. In fact, any sale that's less than 15% is a bad sale for black friday. This is a 10% sale... YAWN.

Before you go out and buy this thing, actually consider what you could buy with that kind of money.

Poor displays plague most laptops, some Apple laptops (the Pro ones, have good displays, it's undeniable) have better displays and that's worth a premium. This white model has a junky-junk-junk a display as any other laptop. Therefore, I don't understand the high price.

Even if you're a huge Mac fanatic, let's be perfectly honest here... $899 for the laptop you've had 3+ years to obtain is a pretty cold announcement.




RE: Shame on daily tech.
By RR6 on 11/27/2008 7:59:40 AM , Rating: 2
While I can't claim to be a OS-X user, I am an experienced UNIX and Linux (various flavours) user; however my normal desktop is Windows.

My view is that UNIX/Linux is superior to Windows due to its better multitasking, shell, bundled tools and more robust architecture; this makes it a much better platform for experienced users than Windows. My only reservation with UNIX/Linux for the desktop is the number of available third-party applications and that is where the OS-X implementation offers the best of both worlds, albeit that it is overpriced.

My biggest complaint about Windows and Microsoft applications is that they doesn't multitask properly. For example, when Internet Explorer is trying to acquire a web page from from a slow server, the whole machine is basically locked up. You can't always just minimise a window and carry on working on something else. Task Manager also does not always allow you to kill off processes.

The same multitasking problem applies to Outlook. For example, if there is a network performance issue (for example accessing e-mail while on a business trip and using the hotel's wi-fi), the whole machine can grind to a virtual halt. Using Windows to connect to a VPN and e-mail server can be very painful.

My other big complaint about Windows systems is that due to Microsoft's desire to allow remote system management and to allow macros/executables in documents, our new powerful computers are crippled by anti-virus software.

I really wish Microsoft would bit the bullet and replace Windows with a version based on Linux...just like Apple did.


Mac Laptops are the choice of many professionals
By mbene72 on 11/27/2008 5:57:56 AM , Rating: 2
I just returned from SC 08 which had about 10k attendees, 80% of which had laptops with them. I would say that Apple laptops were easily the most represented single brand at around 35-40%. Dell was probably number 2, but most of those were the hideous grey plastic corporate bricks. Keep in mind that these are extremely computer savvy professionals and that Apple (unlike HP, Dell, MS, etc.) had absolutely no official presence at the convention. I will acknowledge that this is far from an unbiased sample as EVERYONE there has much more than the average level of experience with Unix based OSes and probably a good bit more money to spend on a laptop than the average user, but it was still an impressive change from previous years. These are the people that friends and family go to for computer purchase recommendations and tech support. I believe it is a sign if things to come unless Apple really drops the ball going forward. Flame away!




By gochichi on 11/27/2008 6:07:30 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, I hear ya. I am that type of person. I switched about 5 people to Mac. After seeing what the company and the platform is actually like OVER TIME, I heartily support Vista and whatever version of Windows follows it.

If I were going to approach the Apple price, I would go Lenovo. Now thats cutting edge technology.

Basically, I suspect others will also have a honey-moon period with their Macs. But after some time they too will realize how absolutely wrong it is to support a monopoly in this industry. This industry was built on openness and innovation, not on one person's idea of "pretty".


MacBook Should be $599
By SpaceJumper on 11/27/2008 9:23:35 PM , Rating: 2
MacBook hardware from processor to video chipset is comparable to a $599 Windows machine. $899 is way too much. If you buy a Mac, you are basically paying for their sport cars, yachts, and expensive wines from your pocket. Mac OS-X is not even an open source.
Save your money for something else.




RE: MacBook Should be $599
By kelmon on 11/28/2008 11:29:20 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Mac OS-X is not even an open source


Well, the OS kernel is and that's why the scientific and security industries tend to like it. However, why this would be important to Joe Public is quite beyond me.

At the end of the day the critical thing is that a MacBook is a Mac and people will pay a premium to use something they like. Sure, I'd like my MacBook Pro to be cheaper (free would be nice) but it's not and I'm not prepared to spend any money on the alternatives for the simple reason that I don't like them. Now, that's not unreasonable, is it?


By crystal clear on 11/26/2008 1:29:26 PM , Rating: 2


The NPD Group data suggests that most buyers are looking for a standard notebook—average price: $680—with a 15- or 16-inch screen that weighs between 5 and 6 pounds. In that category, Acer, Toshiba, HP, Dell and a number of other vendors have several new models with varying features.

While consumers are moving toward notebooks, there are still deals when it comes to traditional desktop PCs for home use. Right now, the average desktop using Microsoft Windows is selling for between $550 and $570, and these desktops include between 500GB and 750GB of data storage.

For those seeking a desktop on the cutting edge, Dell is offering a new PC—the Studio XPS desktop—that is one of the first PCs to use Intel’s Core i7 microprocessor. At the launch, Dell is offering the XPS Studio for $949 without a display and $1,099 with a 19-inch monitor.

The other types of PCs that consumers might want to look at are the so-called “netbooks” or ultraportable laptops that use some combination of an Intel Atom processor or an older Celeron chip.

Baker believes that most consumers will stay away from these types of laptops this holiday season. However, John Spooner, an analyst with Technology Business Research, believes that netbooks and ultraportable PCs such as the Acer Aspire One, the Dell Inspiron Mini 9 and the HP Mini 1000 might appeal to cost-conscious consumers.

These types of low-cost, ultramobile notebooks start as low as $350.

“Given the current economy, I think this holiday season is all netbooks all the time,” said Spooner.



http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Desktops-and-Notebooks/Ap...




hard to beat
By theblackbox on 11/26/2008 9:01:14 PM , Rating: 2
its nice to see apple and it's resellers start to see discounts in their laptop and desktop line. It's a start. I firmly don't believe that apple overcharges on their systems like some people would lead you to believe. In some cases, yes, their laptops (the macbook pros) seem to cost more then a similar windows based computer, but i think at the pricepoint you are basically getting two computers for that price. A competent OSx machine, and with a windows license a well made pc. While companies like dell and gateway will always have loss leader laptops that can far undercut the market, you get what you pay for. I spent my whole life using windows and windows based pc's, building gaming boxes and the such, and as a professional have turned to a mac. Why? Cost. At the workstation level, i can't find as well built a machine as the macpro ( to this point, i7 will change things next year) In order to get a dual processor (multi-core system) with 12gb of ram and 3+ tb of storage, dell is almost unbelievable as far as price is concerned, hp not much different.

I know data centers, call centers, and businesses that use email and accounting packages for their main pc use will stick with cheap windows boxes, but when it comes to production, apple is hard to beat. both the pro laptops and the desktops do what they are supposed to, and when it comes to making money, thats what matters.




Comment on "Industry" Users
By TerminalVelocity on 11/27/2008 3:57:46 PM , Rating: 2
I have very much enjoyed this discussion! I'd like to make 2 points - the first about the earlier statement that the majority of computer industry insiders would either use Windows or Unix.

OS X Leopard (10.5) IS UNIX. It received UNIX 03 Certification on May 18, 2007, before the public release of Leopard. This makes it "just" as Unix-y (if that is a word) as AIX, HP-UX and Sun-OS. Therefore, wouldn't an uber-techie interested in Unix therefore gravitate to OS X, as it is now representative of the cannon of UNIX systems?

Second is to state that $899 is a terrible sale. I like Macs (I own 2, both rebuilt from spare or ebay parts), but the FAR better deal right now is to look at the "Refurbished" section of the Apple store. There you can find MacBook Pro's (admittedly, not the Nov. 2008 version) for under $1300 with full warranty - a savings of $700 or more. At that price point, they begin to compare with "budget gamer" Windows laptops, with the potential benefit (if you are interested in OS X) of the Apple OS.




"If you can find a PS3 anywhere in North America that's been on shelves for more than five minutes, I'll give you 1,200 bucks for it." -- SCEA President Jack Tretton











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