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Apple is trying to rope 'em in early

Los Angeles students will receive iPads for their studies thanks to a recent $30 million contract with Apple.

Apple scored the $30 million contract from the L.A. Unified School District this week, which will deploy iPads to all students throughout 47 campuses. 

The Board of Education voted 6 to 0 on Tuesday to approve the contract after receiving positive input about iPad use from teachers and students. The iPad was also the least expensive device. 

The L.A. Unified School District is paying $678 per iPad, which will come pre-loaded with educational software, but won't include a keyboard. 

The school district also committed to spending "hundreds of millions of dollars" with Apple over the next two years, since they chose the company as their only tablet vendor. 

The iPads have a three-year warranty that includes free replacement devices up to 5 percent of the value of the purchase price. 

The $30 million for Apple's iPads is a steep contract price, but the L.A. district insisted on the measure because new state and national tests will be taken on computers, and it doesn't want its students falling behind on computer skills. Also, the software will help students in the classroom and after school for studying. 


 
However, there are many concerns floating around the new agreement with Apple. Chief Strategy Officer Matt Hill complained that the funding came from facility bonds, which could have been used for construction instead. The teachers union wanted the money to be used for the hiring of new teachers. 

Aside from school staff and officials, Microsoft has a beef to pick with the L.A. Unified School District too, and I bet you can guess why. That's right -- it wants its Surface tablets to be adopted by school districts so that students start using the Windows operating system early, and this will hopefully lead to loyalty to the OS as they upgrade over the years. 

Robyn Hines, senior director of state government affairs for Microsoft, said that using only one platform throughout the district would limit options, such as innovations/price cuts from other companies and students' ability to learn platforms they'd find in the workplace (such as Windows). 

Last week, Microsoft announced that it was giving away 10,000 Surface RT tablets to teachers at the International Society for Technology in Education (ISTE). The idea was to spread RT adoption in schools by supplying teachers with the devices and even training them how to use it. Microsoft is also expected to announce its "Microsoft Surface for education limited time offer" this month, which will offer $199 Surface RTs (normally retails for $499) to schools and colleges interested in adopting the tablets. If the schools want a touch keyboard with their Surface RT, the total price is $249 (retail $599) and with a type keyboard, the cost is $289 (retail $629). 
 
The offer will reportedly run until August 31, 2013.

Microsoft is also trying to expand Surface RT's capabilities by employing Qualcomm's Snapdragon processors for the next generation. 

Apple has been making its way into classrooms around the U.S. for years now. In 2011, Maine spent $200,000 to supply its kindergarteners with iPads. Later that year, the iPad entered other elementary schools, such as a third-grade classroom in Millstone, New Jersey. 

Aside from the $30,000 L.A. Unified School District contract, Apple is using other ways to pull kids into its platform early: Apple Camp.

Apple Camp is a three-day, creative workshop for children ages 8-12. It will be held at Apple Retail Stores, and allows kids to film footage and create songs using iMovie and GarageBand on a Mac. After the three days are complete, the children present their work at the Apple Camp Film Festival.

Source: The Los Angeles Times



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a little bias here?
By dgingerich on 6/19/2013 1:50:53 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
so that students start using the Windows operating system early, and this will hopefully lead to loyalty to the OS as they upgrade over the years.


Nope. This is not the reason. It's to give students more marketable skills once they reach the workforce. They need to be familiar with Windows by the time they get into the workforce because, let's face it, the vast majority of companies use Windows.

Windows has far better security. That's been proven for years now at hacking conventions. Apples always get hacked first. Windows is more manageable. Apples simply don't have any mechanism for a centrally administered security setting set or centrally managed anti-virus. Windows is far more easily supported because of the previous two items. These are the reasons Windows, including RT, will take over small device markets in the business world.

So, in essence, the LA school district, by giving their kids iPads, a crippled, low end, overpriced tablet, are setting their students up for failure. Windows tablets would be a much better choice.




RE: a little bias here?
By Cheesew1z69 on 6/19/2013 1:55:21 PM , Rating: 4
As the article states, they wanted to hire more teachers, that's how the money would have been better spent.


RE: a little bias here?
By othercents on 6/19/13, Rating: -1
RE: a little bias here?
By Solandri on 6/19/2013 2:29:39 PM , Rating: 3
The problem is we're putting the cart before the horse. In medicine, you come up with a drug, test it in petri dishes, then do a bunch of animal tests, then a small set of human trials on terminal patients to make sure it doesn't kill people, then a medium-sized set of double-blind human tests, then a large-scale set of double-blind human tests. The whole process can take up to a decade, and if the drug is found ineffective at any stage it's pretty much dead.

In education, a bunch of people sit in a meeting and decide if an idea sounds cool, and the teachers report if it seems to be helping without actually taking any objective measurements. Educators seem dead-set against objective measurements for some reason, which probably helps explain the poor state of science education in this country.

Anyway, the objective studies are finding that despite students liking the tablets, they're not actually helping them learn any better. This is different from PCs/computers, which were found to help in certain subjects.
http://www.iejee.com/4_3_2012/IEJEE_4_3_441_450.pd...

That's not to say tablets are bad or don't work. It may just be that we haven't found the best way to incorporate them into the classroom yet. But as long as we base their use on teacher/student subjective responses, we'll never figure out the best way to use them in the classroom.


RE: a little bias here?
By Dorkyman on 6/19/2013 3:16:18 PM , Rating: 2
And with this article we have Exhibit A on why public schools in general (and the LA District in particular) are a colossal failure.

Obvious solution: attach the tax money to the child, not the district. Let the parents send the kid to whichever school they want. Within 5 years, a revolution in performance, competence, and satisfaction. But the Obamabots will never allow it to happen.


RE: a little bias here?
By maugrimtr on 6/20/2013 8:41:34 AM , Rating: 2
Of course, a PC helps on some topics. It has a physical keyboard, large screen, and that's pretty essential to any workplace environment because it works really really well for almost anything you want to do.

An iPad is a cut down PC with a small screen, no physical keyboard, and limited creative/work value. They are consumer devices to make some tasks easier while on the move or sitting on a couch.

A laptop would appear to have the most value for education. Cheap as dirt, very similar to a full PC, sufficiently portable, and did I mention cheap as dirt?

Why are schools wasting money on €700 toys?!


RE: a little bias here?
By Xplorer4x4 on 6/23/2013 2:17:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Obvious solution: attach the tax money to the child, not the district. Let the parents send the kid to whichever school they want. Within 5 years, a revolution in performance, competence, and satisfaction. But the Obamabots will never allow it to happen.

In my school district, this has already happened.


RE: a little bias here?
By Mint on 6/19/2013 3:39:11 PM , Rating: 2
I think tablets can be useful, but they gotta choose one with a real stylus.

Kids use pens/pencils for so many critical developmental subjects - math, science, sketching, diagrams, etc. and even sports. You can't replace that with a touchscreen.

Apple's shunning of the stylus will prove to be their biggest mistake in trying to penetrate the education market. Right now they're having some limited success due to their first mover advantage, but in a few years the lack of a stylus will be a dealbreaker.


RE: a little bias here?
By othercents on 6/20/2013 8:54:56 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The problem is that all of this is theoretical and no one has built a system to do this.
quote:
The problem is we're putting the cart before the horse.

Interesting how those two statements have the same point that schools are purchasing technology without the software component they need to be effective, however the ratings are very different.

I do believe that technology can be effective in the class room. It can also be very effective for a teacher and parents when they can tell electronically if the student did the reading assignment and homework. It can also be effective when homework is instantly graded and the student can correct their work and learn from their mistake prior to coming back to the class the next day. Add in a little reminder video on how to do the assignment and your reinforcing what the student learned and might have forgotten as soon as the dismissal bell rung. All of this will be very effective technology that hasn't been built yet.

Not all students work as well in a classroom setting, however there are definite behavior issues all coming from the lack of early motivation from the parents. Parents need to show their children how important school is at an early age. Then you also need a reward based school system. I know how effective my parents were in helping me get my school grades back in line after I came home with a failing grade in a subject, however now I can't tell if my daughter is doing good or bad only that she is doing similar to the rest of the sheep. When homework says "Good Job", I have to grade it and tell her that I'm disappointed that she missed 50% of the questions. I guess she did better than the rest of the class which makes it a "Good Job".

Technology can be effective, however we need a system in place first. Parents need real feedback on the students homework assignments and tests daily. With real feedback, a way to reinforce the lesson, and a way for parents to get involved then we will produce better students.

Other


RE: a little bias here?
By BRB29 on 6/20/2013 9:17:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Technology can be effective, however we need a system in place first. Parents need real feedback on the students homework assignments and tests daily. With real feedback, a way to reinforce the lesson, and a way for parents to get involved then we will produce better students.


Parents have always been able to get involved. You don't need new technology allowing online interactive monitoring of your kids lol. You just gotta give a crap about your children if you want them to succeed. What ever happened to good old parenting? nobody helps their kids with homework anymore? You think having a couple kids is a lot to handle yet parents are leaving it up to teachers to handle 20+ kids. If you're a parent, at least take the time to teach them how to behave. Then teachers can actually concentrate cognitive enrichment. Too many parents are irresponsible and lazy. It's obviously affecting the teachers which lower the overall education level of all students.

Get off your smartphone and pull out the good old pen and paper with your kids. You know, that same way we used to do when we had the #1 education system the in the world. It wasn't just the school or teachers that made us great. It took everyone.

We will just fall further if people think monitoring their kids from a smartphone/computer is going to help them. What are you going to do then? yell at them and make them hate you more? People must not post their kids' A+ exams on the fridge anymore.


RE: a little bias here?
By BRB29 on 6/19/2013 2:30:36 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
More teachers vs more effective teaching through technology. Decreasing burden of teaching and allow larger class room sizes by providing electronic testing methods that allow instant grading. Lower cost of materials and video conferencing for students who are out sick or parent teacher conferences.

We went from having the #1 education system in the world to #16. Ipads isn't going to help.

The most crucial part of school is social interaction.

What teachers have the most problems with is classroom management.

Classroom management is hard because kids have behavioral problems.

Kids have behavior problems because parents don't want to take responsibilities and time to be a parent to their kids.

Parents don't want to take responsibilities because they think it's the school's job.

The school can't do its job because the kids are so messed up.

and so on and so on....

I was teaching for a while but decided I need more money for my own sake. My girlfriend still teach.

In the city you deal with violent, illiterate kids that still have not been potty trained. Their parents come raging in drunk or high cursing at everyone.

In the suburbs, you deal with crying drama filled spoiled brats that thinks they're kings and princesses. Their parents comes in and threaten to sue for something as little as playing as playing a Justin Bieber Song during recess because "baby" is too provocative.

Since the 80s our education systems have failed due to the low quality of teachers because:

1. low salary
2. teaching programs are bad. Very few good programs available overall
3. teachers are now tasked with being a parent/babysitter at the same time
4. teachers have to spend more time reinforcing behaviors
5. parents are sue happy or don't care about their kids
6. dumb regulations
7. some areas became very dangerous
8. schools are underfunded
9. the appearance of charter school systems caused the public schools to have less funding


RE: a little bias here?
By dgingerich on 6/19/13, Rating: 0
RE: a little bias here?
By BRB29 on 6/19/2013 3:13:36 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Here's the beginning of the breakdown in your logic. No, it is not, and never has been, and never will be, the most crucial part of school. Lessons on social interactions should be handled by the parents, never the teachers.


that's great to hear! except in reality, most parents does not want to teach their kids proper behaviors.

Stop going with the asian stereotype. The reason why that stereotype came to be is because immigrants speaks a different language. The only thing universal is math. Asian people wants their kids to learn math for the high paying hot jobs like accounting, engineering, banking, tech, IT etc...
It had nothing to do being asian. You're just a stereotyping fool.

The best people at math actually has proven to always be white. Eg. Einstein, Hawkins etc...


RE: a little bias here?
By karimtemple on 6/19/2013 3:41:49 PM , Rating: 2
Jesus Christ.


RE: a little bias here?
By Cheesew1z69 on 6/19/2013 3:47:51 PM , Rating: 2
Yep...


RE: a little bias here?
By retrospooty on 6/19/2013 3:56:52 PM , Rating: 2
H2O + x = Wine?


RE: a little bias here?
By dgingerich on 6/19/2013 3:52:07 PM , Rating: 2
Do you know anything about Japanese schools? They go to school 6 days a week for full days, half days on Saturdays in some schools, and strongly encourage clubs or sports. A student who isn't in a club or sports is considered a slacker. Teachers are also required by many schools to have visits to their students' homes to talk to parents, unlike our stupid parent/teacher conference days where they teachers get about 5 minutes with most parents. It's a stark contrast compared to our easy schooling. They actually put forward the effort to teach their kids what they need to know, instead of forcing down what the teacher thinks they ought to think. From what I've heard, Korean schools aren't far off.

The Japanese and Koreans also happen to have far more difficult native languages to learn to read. They spend more on teaching the basics of their written language than we do. Japanese have to learn 46 characters in Katakana, 45 in Hiragana, plus hundreds of Kanji just to graduate high school. They actually use more than 6000 Kanji for various words, and 90% of the population don't know a quarter of them. It amazes me how many definitions some of their words have, too, and much of it contextual. Korean is more complex in some ways and less in others. Both countries also have a much more extensive history to learn, being centuries older than the US. I'm impressed they actually have the time to learn hardly anything about math or science while trying to master such difficult languages.

On top of all that, their culture has certain strong values that drive them to be more. It's not that they're more capable. They're human. They aren't any more or less capable, on average, than Europeans, Africans, or anyone else. It's that their cultures push working hard and doing their best. (The way the Japanese encourage each other isn't "good luck" but rather "Do your best!" It is never about luck. Luck is a lazy way of thinking.) It's ingrained in them from a very early age. "Good enough" is only good enough if you have done the best you can. That is something we seriously lack, and it shows. Second and third generational Asians in the US lose that. That's why they don't appear to fit the stereotypes. If you have known someone who is in the US or Europe visiting or just moved here from Japan or Korea, you'd know that for truth.

It's not exactly a stereotype that Asians do better in any particular thing. It's that Japanese and Korean culture and languages are pushing them harder than other cultures.

If you're wondering if I'm a fan of Asian cultures, you;re right. The more I learn about them, the more I like it. Well, I like Japanese, Korean, and Chinese cultures. I've learned a bit about others and haven't been as impressed.


RE: a little bias here?
By BRB29 on 6/19/2013 6:49:07 PM , Rating: 2
and look where the japanese is now. Huge budget deficit, enormous national debt, ridiculous inflation, government expense is almost twice the national tax revenue.

Let's not get started with China or Korea. They have their own massive problems.


RE: a little bias here?
By Digimonkey on 6/19/2013 7:07:07 PM , Rating: 2
You forgot to mention the high suicide rates for teenagers and young adults.


RE: a little bias here?
By Farfignewton on 6/19/2013 10:43:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
and look where the japanese is now. Huge budget deficit, enormous national debt, ridiculous inflation, government expense is almost twice the national tax revenue.


A lot of that sounds rather familiar. I also doubt it any of it can be credibly linked to the Japanese education system. Tax revenue is down in part due to declining population, possibly because they're tired of living in broom closets.


RE: a little bias here?
By BRB29 on 6/20/2013 9:22:05 AM , Rating: 1
The whole point is he's making it sound like the Japs, Chinese, etc... got it right. They really don't and we did at one point. Now it seems like we went backwards.

great education = school + teachers + children + PARENTS

For some reason, PARENTS have dismissed themselves from this equation and blaming it all on the other 3.


RE: a little bias here?
By Tone12 on 6/21/2013 9:42:51 PM , Rating: 2
Japan does not have a huge inflation rate. In fact, they've been having a problem with deflation. Please don't just make things up and throw it all on a pile to try and justify a certain point of view.


RE: a little bias here?
By Reclaimer77 on 6/20/2013 1:26:03 AM , Rating: 1
Wow why don't you just boil down this bigoted wall of text to a simple: white=bad and lazy, Asian=good and more betterer?

I mean come on, this is so stereotypical it's just offensive.

Here is something that isn't a stereotype, Japan's outrageous world-leading suicide rate. While you're lauding us with the superiority of their culture, I'm thinking it's just all messed up.


RE: a little bias here?
By dgingerich on 6/20/2013 1:17:09 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't say they got it all right. (I'm white, btw, German, Irish, English, French, and a little Native American ancestry.) No culture is perfect. There are good and bad sides to all of them.

However, the Japanese and Koreans do have several points right where they need to be. That's what I'm highlighting.

Why is it when people promote something, others have to believe those people are denigrating other things that have nothing to do with it? It's like the stupid Literature teachers that keep overanalyzing old books to try to make them relevant to today's issues. I'm sorry. Most books simply relate to issues in their age. Some don't mean a darn thing.

Japan's suicide rate has the same reason behind it as any other suicide: loss of hope. All suicides boil down to that. If they had hope for the future, like that of certian western religions, their suicide rates wouldn't be so high.


RE: a little bias here?
By Lord 666 on 6/19/2013 9:28:37 PM , Rating: 2
@BRB29 - There is always teaching at the college/community college level. Its where I have been able to share my passion and help interested adults either hone their skills or developed news ones. Have even successfully placed several into positions. Teaching itself is truly rewarding, don't give up. Just need to find the right audience.


RE: a little bias here?
By BRB29 on 6/20/2013 7:48:41 AM , Rating: 2
Thanks for the encouragement. I plan on coming back during my 40s.


RE: a little bias here?
By Reclaimer77 on 6/19/2013 5:24:06 PM , Rating: 1
OK I see you're an 'expert' on every topic, but my family has several veteran educators, and your little list there doesn't match with their real-world observations.


RE: a little bias here?
By Cheesew1z69 on 6/19/2013 6:59:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
OK I see you're an 'expert' on every topic
And yet, he knows nothing.


RE: a little bias here?
By Azethoth on 6/20/2013 2:47:53 AM , Rating: 2
I find it frightening that someone with your poor written English was a teacher.


RE: a little bias here?
By Cheesew1z69 on 6/20/2013 8:12:12 AM , Rating: 2
No kidding right, but he also claims to be an account, have military clearance, and thinks he has some kind of computer knowledge...

I don't believe a word he says at this point....


RE: a little bias here?
By BRB29 on 6/20/2013 8:27:49 AM , Rating: 2
Because you can't have 7.5 years of military, 2 years of teaching and 1 year of accounting for a career in less than 11 years of working?

Maybe you just need to do something with your life. I've done plenty and I'll keep grinding until I die.


RE: a little bias here?
By Cheesew1z69 on 6/20/2013 8:50:20 AM , Rating: 1
I am doing something with my life troll.... I still don't believe a word you say.

I work and take care of my daughter, unlike you who sits on here all day talking about subjects you know nothing about.

Hell, she's only 14 months old and she's already smarter than you seem to be.


RE: a little bias here?
By BRB29 on 6/20/2013 9:28:56 AM , Rating: 1
You must hate your life if you're going after someone you don't even know so hard.


RE: a little bias here?
By Cheesew1z69 on 6/20/2013 9:32:19 AM , Rating: 1
You assume a lot, I just don't like idiots like you.


RE: a little bias here?
By BRB29 on 6/20/13, Rating: 0
RE: a little bias here?
By Cheesew1z69 on 6/20/2013 9:54:58 AM , Rating: 1
I know what I wrote retard.

Ignore me? THANK GOD! About fucking time.

Not bitter, again, assuming. My GF and daughter are perfectly fine when I get home. Just don't like MORONS like you who think they know everything. Even when pointed out you are wrong. And, you call people liars when you don't agree with something they say. You called ME a liar as well as others.

I highly suggest you quit ASSUMING things about people, I EARN an honest living moron. For someone who "seem to be able to work full time, school full time, and take care of my 2.5 year old daughter just fine" you sure post an awful lot on here...

You have a daughter, that's fucking scary. I sure hope she is smarter than you.


RE: a little bias here?
By dgingerich on 6/19/2013 2:38:00 PM , Rating: 2
With my experiences with teachers, no, it wouldn't be.


RE: a little bias here?
By Cheesew1z69 on 6/19/2013 2:51:21 PM , Rating: 2
Well, that's you, not the millions of other students in school right now.


RE: a little bias here?
By retrospooty on 6/19/2013 3:59:30 PM , Rating: 2
Like with anything, there are good and bad teachers. The problem schools have today is identifying and removing the bad ones. Unions and plain disorganization makes it extremely difficult... But ultimately you have to think they werent hoping to hire crappy teachers.


RE: a little bias here?
By BRB29 on 6/20/2013 7:43:00 AM , Rating: 2
you mean there's not enough real teachers around. There's a ton of teachers who just became teachers because they couldn't find a job.


RE: a little bias here?
By msheredy on 6/19/2013 4:02:57 PM , Rating: 2
You're confusing iOS with OS X. In mobile platforms iOS, with it's sandboxing security, is the safest and most popular operating system.

http://safeandsavvy.f-secure.com/2013/03/08/mobile...


RE: a little bias here?
By Nekrik on 6/19/2013 4:28:16 PM , Rating: 2
this article doesn't seem to indicate as such. And the mobile hotspot idea is/was very likely a selling point as the kids move around campus.
http://www.dailytech.com/iOSs+Weak+Autogenerated+P...


RE: a little bias here?
By RomeoKnight on 6/20/2013 12:38:47 PM , Rating: 2
Keep in mind that Windows may be niche market in 5-10 years from now. Microsoft should switch to IBM strategy and enterprise market before it's too late.


Is this the line for apps?
By rountad on 6/19/2013 1:28:15 PM , Rating: 2
This is complete garbage.

An iPad will not teach you how to use a computer or give you the skills that job seekers will need.

They should purchase Macs or PCs for that.

An iPad is not the cheapest by any means, in an Apple to apples comparison (see what I did there?)

Windows RT or Android tablets are cheaper if you don't need the x86 compatibility.

Many notebooks are cheaper if you do.




RE: Is this the line for apps?
By BRB29 on 6/19/2013 1:33:31 PM , Rating: 2
i suppose an RT tablet with dancing icons will?


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Motoman on 6/19/2013 2:15:39 PM , Rating: 3
No, an RT tablet is a stupid idea too.

The point is correct though that schools should be preparing kids to become effective members of the workforce. That means teaching them to use PCs and standard office productivity software.

Teaching kids to use Macs, as is trendy in some trendy schools, is actually a disservice to those kids, as they'll have to unlearn Mac and learn PC once they actually enter the real world.

Teaching kids to do anything on a tablet is a pretty worthless exercise. That's not preparing them to enter the workforce. And it sure as hell shouldn't be a replacement for learning PC skills.

I do think the point is valid that spending millions of dollars on iPads while teachers' salaries are fairly craptastic, as a rule, is a huge slap in the face of our nations' educators.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By BRB29 on 6/19/2013 2:53:07 PM , Rating: 2
these electronics are not necessary and probably will do a disservice to kids in elementary.

It's pretty worthless until about 7th grade when they need to start typing essays and research papers.

This whole push for tablets, flash media, smartboards etc... are just the school and state officials' way of saying "hey, we're doing something about it"

It's also the businesses way of saying "hey, we're here to help". But in reality they're saying "we want your money now and your kids' money in the future"


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By ImEmmittSmith on 6/19/13, Rating: 0
RE: Is this the line for apps?
By BRB29 on 6/19/2013 4:28:02 PM , Rating: 3
Are you tony?


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Noonecares on 6/19/2013 9:30:46 PM , Rating: 2
Define "at risk" please. Humble me.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By ven1ger on 6/20/2013 4:03:02 PM , Rating: 2
Biologically at risk children are children born with impairments. Environmentally at risk children are children born/living in environments that put them at risk in their developmental years. At risk children are those that will have developmental challenges in their early years.

It is true that IPADs/tablets do well with children that are in special education programs. To claim that these mobile devices are better than desktop/laptop computers for the typical classroom is stretching it.

Mobile devices within classrooms are helpful within the classroom, but should be understood that these are just tools and just one in many that can be utilized to help educate students.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Nutzo on 6/19/2013 5:56:30 PM , Rating: 3
I agree with you about the iPads being a waste of money, but disagree about the teachers salaries.
When you include the benefits, (health, retirement, etc) Teachers are very well paid out here in California.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By BRB29 on 6/19/2013 6:45:59 PM , Rating: 2
well paid compared to what? what type of teachers? private or public?

The only place I know of with high salary for teachers is Nassau county which is in Long Island, NY.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Cheesew1z69 on 6/19/2013 7:24:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The only place I know of
Which you don't know much of anything...


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By BRB29 on 6/20/2013 8:30:27 AM , Rating: 2
You're right, I don't know much of anything about a place where my relatives live and I visit on a monthly basis.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Cheesew1z69 on 6/20/13, Rating: 0
RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Belard on 6/19/2013 2:11:14 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, a desktop computer won't teach a person more about computers if it doesn't involve programming and such. Kids these days have access to computers all their lives... yet they KNOW NOTHING how a computer works. Just get them onto facebook/IM/email/browser and they are good to go. Do they know how it all works? no?

A tablet can do pretty much anything a desktop that is a 5+ years old can do. Word processing and more... and for that price, I think its safe to assume they are using iPad4 with 4G tech.

Also, RT tablets are a dead end... no software, no developers, no support.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Tony Swash on 6/19/13, Rating: -1
RE: Is this the line for apps?
By rountad on 6/19/2013 3:35:04 PM , Rating: 5
I disagree strongly.

Job skills that are in demand are NOT that you know how to use Facebook on the iPad.

PCs and, to a lesser extent, Macs are what get the vast majority of work done.

And, if teaching marketable skills or using real software is not a goal, then what is?

If you just want to run some lightweight apps and consume content, then an Android tablet would get the job done for a fraction of the cost of the iPad.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Gio6518 on 6/19/2013 3:46:08 PM , Rating: 1
not to mention better security...iOS 387 security flaws compared to Androids 13

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2262231/a...


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By aliasfox on 6/19/2013 4:26:48 PM , Rating: 2
New hires will get trained when they get the job.

15 years ago, a public school computer lab would have had Windows 95 or Mac OS 7 on desktop computers. Most of these had floppy drives, some had CD ROMs. When's the last time you carried a floppy disc with you (don't touch the disc inside, kids!), or had to tell someone that the computer can't burn a CD? Sure, File >> Save is still there, but what else is? The trash can/recycle bin?

There isn't a whole lot that a public school education will teach a kid with regards to computers. If schools were already teaching kids formulas and pivot tables and SQL and how to connect to remote servers, then maybe a tablet wouldn't be as good for that. But they're not. I didn't get a computer until 1996, went to a top 100 high school and a top 15 university that didn't teach a lick of computer skills past the most rudimentary, and still manage to do ok.

A kid will learn how to use MS Word when he gets a paper assignment, or will learn the basics of Excel when he has to do basic calculations on his own - and chances are, he already knows how to do this - a computer in the home isn't a rarity anymore.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Tony Swash on 6/20/2013 12:01:12 PM , Rating: 1
You are still thinking that the technology of the recent past will be the technology in use in the near future. It won't be. The rise of the small, inexpensive, always connected touch based device is a more profound and larger technology inflection and mutation point than the rise of the PC.

The devices that people use to get 90% of their work done in five years time will be much more like an iPad than a PC. Control-Alt-Delete and all that it implies (byzantine file managment systems, constant and neccessary hardware integration management by the end user, complex UI systems) will be as redundant and as forgotten as the skills needed to insert a new ribbon in a typewriter.

The kids in schools right now will look at how you and I used our 'personal computers' and see them as amusingly odd and alien as watching a film of our parents painstakingly adjusting a TV aerial to get a decent picture.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By retrospooty on 6/20/2013 1:09:29 PM , Rating: 3

Good luck with that fantasy. Tablets are good for being mobile, but its not going to replace the PC in the office any time soon. Tablets are still toys, and will never be as productive as a full computer... And even with a ful computer, there is only 1 player in business and that is Microsoft. The whole world runs off Microsoft PC's. Dont forget, every iDevice and Mac is made in factories that run their businesses of MS PC's. Every planning, purchasing, inbound logistics, warehousing, shop floor, shipping, accounting, reverse logistics, CRM software etc etc... It all runs on PC's.

Call me when they can make an Apple device without using an entire company that runs off PC's for every single steps in the process from planning to purchasing to inbound logistics to warehousing to shop floor to shipping, accounting, reverse logistics, CRM software etc etc... It all runs on PC's. No one else is even close to matching it.

"The devices that people use to get 90% of their work done in five years time will be much more like an iPad than a PC"

Let this go down as one of the stupidest things Tony ever said.

- Apple stock will hit 1000
- Android is a disaster for Google
- Google is abandoning Android
- The devices that people use to get 90% of their work done in five years time will be much more like an iPad than a PC


Notice a theme there? Its all wishful thinking by you, but completely fantasy based.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Tony Swash on 6/20/2013 3:10:06 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
- Apple stock will hit 1000 - Android is a disaster for Google - Google is abandoning Android - The devices that people use to get 90% of their work done in five years time will be much more like an iPad than a PC


A bit rich coming from the guy who thought the iPad would be a short lived fad :)

I confess I did get carried away and thought Apple would reach a 1000. My bad

I never said Android was a disaster for Google just that given its actual and strategic costs it was not addressing the challenge that Goolgle faced as internet activity migrated to mobile devcies, that challenge Google seems to be partially addressing by the forced migration of all Google service users to Google+ accounts. Android is not important to Google's strategic health as a company. How much effort and resource Google continues to invest in Android will be interesting to watch post-Rubins.

I think that the problem that conservative thinkers such as yourself have with the migration to mobile devices is that you think work is done by people sitting at desks with PCs or laptops. It's a similar error of vision that mainframe guys had taking the PC seriously when it emerged. Back then PCs didn't replace mainframes so much as coral them into a limited arena of activity where the advantage of the mainframe was real. Meanwhile what the PC did was invent huge new arenas for new types of computing activity which had never been imagined in the mainframe world or had been poorly addressed. So now, as one example, we see any sort of physically mobile professional (maintenance guys, sales people, doctors, media people, administrators, educators, creatives, musicians, accountants, retail staff, etc,etc,) using tablets (mostly iPads) in ways that old style PCs just cannot be used.

Obviously Microsoft wants to try to get those people all running some variant of Windows, that in my opinion is a mistake and seems to be pretty clearly failing. However irrespective of the OS the tablet and the pocket computer is fundementally changing the way people do computing. Meaningless attempts to divide up what people do with their computing devices into 'real work' (that counts), and 'consumption' (which doesn't count) is just a failure of imagination in a rapidly changing world.

Sure some people in business will continue to spend their time looking at large screens and use a mouse to mainuplate a GUI, but most people in business and in their professions won't. We are not there yet but not far off, the trend is very obvious, very strong and is moving very fast.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By retrospooty on 6/20/2013 3:32:05 PM , Rating: 2
"I never said Android was a disaster for Google"

??? I recall you saying that several times and defending it.

"I think that the problem that conservative thinkers such as yourself have with the migration to mobile devices is that you think work is done by people sitting at desks with PCs or laptops."

Like I said, let me know when Foxconn, Pegatron and any other of Apple manufactures can make an iPad,iPod, iPhone, or Mac without the entire business running on PC's. Tablets are being used in business, but not as a main computer. They are being used when travelling... When these users get back to the office they are still using their PC's. That wont last forever I am sure but it hasn't even started to change. 5 years off is a laugher when even Apple cant make its products without using PC's. If Apple cant do it (and you KNOW they want to) then its not happening, not on any meaningful scale.

"tablet and the pocket computer is fundementally changing the way people do computing" - True... At home. IT changed me too at home and when travelling.

You need to come back to Earth. The thin air up there is hindering your ability to see clearly.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Cheesew1z69 on 6/20/2013 3:40:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
"I never said Android was a disaster for Google" ??? I recall you saying that several times and defending it.
He sure did!


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By retrospooty on 6/20/2013 4:25:57 PM , Rating: 2
I know... WTF? He says it on a regular basis. Also last week he said Google is abandoning Android. LOL.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Motoman on 6/21/2013 1:03:13 AM , Rating: 2
...why do you guys even read what he posts, let alone bother responding to it?


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By retrospooty on 6/21/2013 10:42:14 AM , Rating: 3
It's fun to shut him down... Besides, once you do, he goes away for several days so we have a vacation from his agenda driven drivel.


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Gio6518 on 6/19/2013 3:41:48 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Can you imagine how handicapped students would be if they were given an Android or Windows tablet?


HAHAHAHAHA thanks for the funniest thing I've heard all month maybe year...Yup mentally handicapped people are the majority of Apple customers..


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Nutzo on 6/19/2013 5:16:20 PM , Rating: 4
From a business standpoint, learning to use an iPad is about as much use as learning to use a Nintendo DS.

An iPad is a media consumtion device, not a work computer.

At least if the had a windows tablet they would know what the Windows 8/9 desktop that they will be using in thier first real job looks like :)


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By retrospooty on 6/19/2013 5:18:31 PM , Rating: 2
RE: Is this the line for apps?
By ImEmmittSmith on 6/19/13, Rating: -1
RE: Is this the line for apps?
By Alexstarfire on 6/20/2013 1:14:10 PM , Rating: 1
At least when I went to high school, 2001-2005, the PCs we were using were, in fact, quite cumbersome. This was more because they were old when they got them than because of the OS it used though. I don't think that would be as much of an issue now since computers now usually have a lot of extra computational power just going to waste. So if you bought a 3-4 year old desktop now it'd probably be just fine for what you'd use them for in high-school.

I think iPads are a waste too, but not because they got iPads, but because they got tablets. I can't imagine most of them will end up working with tablets when they get into the "real world."


RE: Is this the line for apps?
By ven1ger on 6/21/2013 2:25:34 PM , Rating: 1
How old is that software you were using for the PCs? Windows XP was released about 2001. It's 2013, that's 12 years. I'd guess that about 90-95% of software written for XP runs easily on Windows 7. And if you're programs can't run on Windows 7 and only Windows XP, why the hell are you running Windows 7, a lot of companies still run XP. Logically your argument fails.

The iPad which you seem to applaud as THE educational tool has only been out since 2010. They don't even have the 12 years that Windows XP has had, so what happens in the next 2-3 years when Apple changes it iOS that your software is no longer usable? Apple OS support for older software tends to be lacking.

iPads are a good educational tool because Apple has directed a lot of their marketing towards building a strong support for education materials but does it make it the best tool, I doubt it. A desktop computer/laptop computer has more versatility in education. iPads or any mobile device are good educational tools, but it's usability as an educational tool is much more narrow than desktops/laptops.


Lol
By BRB29 on 6/19/13, Rating: 0
RE: Lol
By karimtemple on 6/19/2013 12:42:12 PM , Rating: 1
This segment should BELONG to Microsoft. They are so pathetic right now lol.


RE: Lol
By wushuktl on 6/19/2013 12:44:45 PM , Rating: 1
hahaha so said but true.


RE: Lol
By JDHammer on 6/19/2013 1:01:16 PM , Rating: 2
I just wanna /facepalm at this.


RE: Lol
By ltcommanderdata on 6/19/2013 1:57:42 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
The tablet computer by Apple “received the highest scoring by the students and the teachers,” who took part in testing different devices, said Deputy Supt. Jaime Aquino.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-lausd-...

A number of tablets were piloted, but students and teachers like and want iPads. Yes, there are no doubt spec sheets and feature lists that favour other tablets, but fundamentally users prefer the iPad. If the school board had gone ahead and bought Android or Windows tablets that students and teachers don't want to and perhaps even won't use, then that would have been a real waste of money.

And Apple has had a program where owners of older iPads can give them back to Apple for refurbishment and subsequent free donation to schools in low-income areas.


RE: Lol
By rountad on 6/19/2013 2:38:04 PM , Rating: 5
I'm sure cake beats spinach in the lunch preference survey, too.

Sometimes, though, you have to say "no".

I don't know enough about the needs of the district to say how the money should have been spent. I can see, though, that the reasons given are specious.

Teachers, infrastructure, or real computers (PC or Mac) all seem like better options here.


RE: Lol
By Motoman on 6/19/2013 4:10:48 PM , Rating: 4
No kidding. Is there any evidence at all that indicates that kids/teachers didn't select the iThing simply because the teevee has educated them that it's the cool thing to have and they need the one with the bigger geebees?

Schools should be teaching valuable skills that will help our kids succeed in the real world. D1cking around with an iPad isn't giving any such skills, and the expenditure is a total boondoggle.


RE: Lol
By TSS on 6/19/2013 5:20:40 PM , Rating: 3
I, for one, am happy those kids got what they wanted. It will give them fond memories of good times. Where they could learn and be cool at the same time. The games played between them and how it bonded them with their friends etc.

Because let's face it. These kids are most likely not going to have a job later. They for damn sure won't have a pension. Most likely, they'll have to do some menial back breaking labor that doesn't require an ipad or an education, just to send their own kids to some overcrowded school with 50 kids per teacher because it's all the government can afford and they can't afford the private schools not with $100,000+ in student debt they're still paying off.

Those are highschool kids right? Means they'll go to college around 1-2 years from now and graduate in ~8 years from now. The national debt today is $16,8 trillion. The national debt in 2005 was ~$8 trillion. Assuming it continues at the same rate, in 8 years time, it will be $32,3 trillion. GDP 8 years ago was $12,6 trillion, today it's $15,7 trillion, in 8 years it will be ~$19,6 trillion.

So when these kids graduate and are ready to enter the workforce, Debt to GDP will be at 160% GDP, or the same as Greece. And rising. And that's only assuming things will continue to be just as bad as they are now. Which is impossible considering the US is already in worse shape then the worst of the doomsday predictions back from 2005-2006, so it'll be in much worse shape again in 8 years then we're imagining now.

In 2005 the fed interest rate was climbing up to 5% in late 2006. If you hit that 5% again today, servicing the national debt will cost you ~$1 trillion a year (that's servicing not paying off or rolling over). The historical average is 6,68%.

No, i say, while the good times are still here i hope they can enjoy it. They won't for much longer.


RE: Lol
By BRB29 on 6/20/2013 9:52:10 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Those are highschool kids right? Means they'll go to college around 1-2 years from now and graduate in ~8 years from now. The national debt today is $16,8 trillion. The national debt in 2005 was ~$8 trillion. Assuming it continues at the same rate, in 8 years time, it will be $32,3 trillion. GDP 8 years ago was $12,6 trillion, today it's $15,7 trillion, in 8 years it will be ~$19,6 trillion.


Your numbers are always off and biased. You're assuming that we will have a massive war one after another. I can bend statistics in my favor fairly easily.

Part of Quantitative Research and writing a case study is accounting for many variables and factors/events that can influenced your results. You seem to miss that whole part. If everything is on a linear path, then we only need one economist in an entire country.


RE: Lol
By TSS on 6/21/2013 11:39:13 AM , Rating: 2
And your reading comprehension is as shoddy as always. I already said my own numbers are wrong and it will be worse in reality.

Just like the *exponentially based* doomsday predictions from 2005, turned out to be even worse.

I gave the best scenario because you won't even belive the worst case. Here it is: The top 5 US banks alone have a derivates exposure of $222 trillion.

Social security and medicare liabilities until 2075 (so which these kids will pay for) amount to another $122 trillion.

I spoke about the national debt, but not the TOTAL US debt. Total US debt was around $33 trillion 8 years ago. Now it's around $60 trillion, another $5 trillion higher then it was in 2008. Linearily, it'll hit ~$110 trillion in 8 years.

Student loan debt has doubled from ~$500 billion to $1 trillion in 8 years. Tuition fees have also doubled since then, atleast.

The fed monetised 78,8% of ALL US treasuries in 2012. They're on track to hit 100% by 2018. At 100% you're effectively the only person buying your own debt and all confidence in your ability to pay back is lost, making hyperinflation the only awnser.

The real worst case scenario can hardly be belived. It's total social economical collapse. These kids will not be doing some menial job, they will be killing eachother over scraps of food! In fact, if the EBT system fails for a month, this would already be the case!

Oh, and i don't have to write a case study on this. Others have. How do you think i got all this info?

Http://www.google.com


Big DUH....
By Cheesew1z69 on 6/19/2013 12:58:40 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
However, there are many concerns floating around the new agreement with Apple. Chief Strategy Officer Matt Hill complained that the funding came from facility bonds, which could have been used for construction instead. The teachers union wanted the money to be used for the hiring of new teachers.
This is just a big fucking DUH, it SHOULD be, not being wasted on ipads. And they want to spend "hundreds of millions more" on Apple? Seriously? WTF is wrong with these people....




RE: Big DUH....
By Cheesew1z69 on 6/19/2013 1:13:26 PM , Rating: 2
Go ahead, down rate me, I really don't care :)


RE: Big DUH....
By BRB29 on 6/19/2013 1:18:00 PM , Rating: 2
if you didn't then you wouldn't whine about it lol :)


RE: Big DUH....
By Cheesew1z69 on 6/19/13, Rating: -1
Something seems off...
By seamonkey79 on 6/19/2013 12:53:47 PM , Rating: 3
I thought Apple devices were simple and magical to use. Why do they need to have camps?




RE: Something seems off...
By hau101 on 6/24/2013 5:28:23 AM , Rating: 2
The camps are where the real magic happens.


$678 per student isn't much...
By aliasfox on 6/19/2013 3:00:18 PM , Rating: 2
$678 per student isn't much when you consider that each textbook middle school on up costs $150. If each of these iPads has textbook material that can replace three years worth of math, science, and history texts, then I think it's money well spent - or at least not significantly squandered.

Let's not forget, Apple launched its interactive-textbook push a couple of years ago. These are (supposedly) textbooks with not only book text, but also interactive models, videos, and other functionality. I haven't seen these textbooks, but at least the marketing spin makes them sound like a solid advancement. If that's really the case, then Apple deserves sales for trying to push the envelope. If the interactive textbooks boil down to simply e-readers, then maybe not.

Of course, my opinion is that all of this is, regardless of technology or brand affiliations, is uesless unless there are small classes and motivated teachers. A good teacher can make difficult topics easy and motivate students in a way that reading a textbook, even a digital one, can't. Suffice it to say, I can remember my good teachers quite easily. The videos and technology they employed? Much less so.




RE: $678 per student isn't much...
By Nutzo on 6/19/2013 5:10:16 PM , Rating: 1
Except the digital books are not free. They will be paying more, for digital content, since it has to be purchased/licensed each year, whereas physical books can be used for multiple years.

This is going to be a massive failure on many levels.

Higher cost, fragile tablets that will end up broken or lost, kids will end up downloading p0rn or surfing the net instead of working.

Withing a couple months I'm sure we will read several stories of kids being robbed/mugged or even killed on thier way to or from school by some crook/gang member who wants thier ipad.

It's already happened in another school district, where a kid was dragged to his death because he didn't let go of the school issued iPad, when some crook grabed it and drove away.

The iPad does nothing for a school environment that couldn't be done on a cheaper laptop. This is just some apple iBots in the school district offices of wanting to do the trendy thing. It will be just as much of a failure as all the schools that rolled out netbooks and thenm dumped them a couple years later.

I gues the only good thing will be the flood of cheap used iPads on the LA market by christmas.



RE: $678 per student isn't much...
By Tone12 on 6/21/2013 9:39:28 PM , Rating: 2
nutzo, exactly. Bringing in these tablets and Apple's digital textbooks "looks" like a good move and that is all the administrators tend to care about. But it is unnecessary and more expensive than traditional methods.


?
By damianrobertjones on 6/19/2013 12:37:50 PM , Rating: 2
So... When all these kids grow up and enter business, especially over here in the U.K., businesses will have to invest in training for MS Office. Obviously times can change but a few people will have been given a TIDY little incentive to make this happen!




RE: ?
By damianrobertjones on 6/19/2013 12:38:36 PM , Rating: 2
P.s. It'll only take a few games and these kids will instantly drop the ipad. yep, we're that fickle.


Not years
By Solandri on 6/19/2013 2:12:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Apple has been making its way into classrooms around the U.S. for years now.

Try decades. Apple has had a strong educational program since the Apple II days. My computer lab in jr high in 1981 had Apple II+es. The only difference now is they're pushing iPads instead of Macs.




RE: Not years
By Fleeb on 6/19/2013 7:54:45 PM , Rating: 2
Would have it been better if they were still pushing for Macs? I don't really see the value of tablets other than consumption. You don't really teach students to consume. That is why they are students, they need to learn how to create or produce.


LED SCREEN!!
By half_duplex on 6/20/2013 9:44:59 AM , Rating: 2
Forget cheaper alternatives... no "screen" is beneficial to developmental education in my opinion.




RE: LED SCREEN!!
By ven1ger on 6/21/2013 2:35:50 PM , Rating: 2
Will have to disagree. When it comes to Special Education, touch screens have been tremendous for Assistive Technology. The tablet (whether iPad, Android, MS) are almost ideal tools for assisting with Spec. Ed. children because they offer immediate response, where traditional keyboard/screen responses are difficult for Spec. Ed. children.

In typical classrooms, it may not be the best tool but in Special Education classrooms, it is a very awesome tool.


Bad idea
By Tone12 on 6/21/2013 9:19:37 PM , Rating: 2
This is a bad move by the LA school system. I worked as a math teacher for 5 years before recently taking my Comp Sci degree and heading for a career with less headaches. I'm all for teaching kids technology and science but entering this contract with Apple was a bad idea. You CANNOT go by what the students tell you in surveys. It is naive to give it much weight. The vast majority of the students will lie and go with what they think is easier (or cooler) rather than with what will help them learn the best. You know who the favorite teacher of the majority of students is? The one who goes the easiest on them. Unfortunately, very few students are really interested in maximizing their educational opportunities.

Why is it a bad idea? First of all, they aren't the cheapest option by any stretch of the imagination. The pricetag alone demonstrates that. Second, the majority of systems they will deal with as adults are not Mac based. Most importantly, they are more of a distraction and waste of money than an aide to education. Yes, the students should be using computers, but tablets, especially Apple's, tend to be less powerful, more expensive, and harder to monitor than a lab of stationary desktops. In my own experience, I've seen many times students were on Facebook or some other site instead of doing their assignment- this is despite those sites being blocked. One student will find (or be shown) a way on there via proxies or other techniques and then it quickly spreads to the other students. Tablets are largely just another classroom distraction, like cell phones, that tend to inhibit the learning process more than aiding it for the majority of students. Of course, a tech company would never admit this.

Then there are other considerations like the smaller screens on tablets being harder for visually impaired students to see, their more prone to being damaged in the classroom, and if you let them go out of the classroom there's a good chance of them being lost, damaged or stolen. Anyone who has seen how many textbooks get damaged and destroyed in a typical school will know what I'm talking about, and those are far less fragile than a tablet computer. Kids steal backpacks, throw out contents while "burritoing" them, throw them up in the air for no reason, etc.

Not only that you need more IT personnel just to maintain them. I have yet to meet a teacher who felt that adding tablet computers to the classroom was an overall positive experience, and that's even before considering the hefty price tag.

We are too quick to try and implement technology in the classroom, even more than necessary, and administrators often care more about how things "look" than how effective they are. Administrators will often implement a change so they can seem cutting edge, when the previous method worked just as well, if not better. This is the sort of thing happening with tablets. They will go "Look at how modern we are. We're using the latest technology." But the fact is that pen and paper is still, overall, a far better tool for educating students than unnecessary and expensive technology for the classroom, like tablets, tend to be.




RE: Bad idea
By Tone12 on 6/21/2013 9:25:51 PM , Rating: 2
Wish I didn't type my post so quickly as I typed "their" instead of "they're" in my 3rd paragraph. Sorry for the error. Being a former teacher, I hate it when I make a mistake like that.


Smart move by Apple.
By Nekrik on 6/19/2013 12:47:24 PM , Rating: 2
give them free access to the hardware to dumb them down early and make sure they are caught in an ecosystem that'll cost them a hefty exit price.




Ipad$$$
By 2bdetermine on 6/19/2013 4:07:44 PM , Rating: 2
So they rather wasted taxpayers dollar on a more expensive product selling by their branch name rather than on a cheaper alternative.




No money? Keep Spending!!
By TRYthisONaMAC on 6/21/2013 8:41:34 PM , Rating: 2
Isn't Cali broke? Why even buy Ipads at all?




"Nowadays you can buy a CPU cheaper than the CPU fan." -- Unnamed AMD executive














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