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Print 183 comment(s) - last by wordsworm.. on Apr 19 at 10:22 PM


Psystar's $399 Mac clones are no more, thanks to some legal pressure from Apple.  (Source: Psystar)
Steve Jobs and Apple are not fans of cheaper Mac clones

The numbers look too good to be true for Apple Inc.'s Mac followers -- A 2.2 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 2 GB of DDR2 667 memory, a 250 GB hard drive, DVD, and Integrated Intel GMA 950 Graphics, all for a lowly $399.  To put this in perspective a Mac Mini with a 2.0 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, equivalent memory, a 160 GB hard drive, DVD, and the same graphics processor, will cost you a hefty $949.  Of course the $399 Mac came in a full-size case, and the Mac Mini came in a shrunken footprint, but obviously for some Mac users, the decreased size wasn't worth $550.

Well it turns out it may well have been too good to be true.  The Mac compatible computer, produced by Miami-based Psystar went temporarily offline, amid threats from Apple's legal legion.  Psystar, also known for its Voice-over-Internet, security and networking systems perhaps should have known better when it advertised to users a chance to buy a computer "capable of running unmodified OS X Leopard kernels".

Apple has long fought such moves.  Briefly during Gil Amelio's tenure at Apple a number of Mac clones were allowed, as it was seen that the insistence on proprietary sales was one cause of the downfall of Macs, from their once leading position in the home computer market.  However, with Steve Jobs quickly reassuming leadership of the company, the clones were out the window, and he began a campaign of purging and did not stop until every last clone maker was destroyed.

Still, in the shadowy underground of Apple-loving hackers, following Apple's switch from PowerPC to Intel processors, some users found ways to patch or emulate OS X to get around Mac’s Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI), one of Apple's main barriers to cloning.  Other similar barriers were removed, and ever since a small Mac hardware hacking community has arisen.  The Cupertino-based Apple and its CEO Steve Jobs have tried to silence this movement, but their constant cat-and-mouse battle with the hackers has had little impact.

However, Apple found a perfect target to vent its frustrations on when, when Psystar dared to try to make a business undercutting Apple's own marked up hardware.  Psystar came with the EFI V8 emulator which tricks OS X install disks into thinking the computer was an official Mac.  Apple couldn't directly assault Psystar as there was nothing overtly illegal about its hardware.  So they dug.  And they quickly discovered a caveat -- Psystar offered to preinstall users' copies of OS X on the system.  Leopard’s End User License Agreement (EULA) states:

This License allows you to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time.

Apple's lawyers, armed with this clear violation of the EULA promised to challenge Psystar and coincidentally, the site just went down only to come up renamed.  Whether Apple's legal team can lay Psystar's $399 Mac to rest remains to be seen, but its clear Psystar is going to fight what it calls an "illegal EULA" to the bitter end.

While Apple is broadly appreciated as one of the most innovative tech companies, it has also been widely criticized for its draconian legal and business tactics -- from bricking users unlocked iPhones, to killing the leak site Think Secret, and trying to legally block the Big Apple, New York City from using a logo with an apple (which bears little resemblance to either version of Apple Inc.'s logo) in an environmental campaign.



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Same garbage
By eye smite on 4/15/2008 10:46:12 AM , Rating: 5
Thanks to things like this, apple users wonder why apple isn't more popular. Steve Jobs just loves shooting himself in the foot.




RE: Same garbage
By Operandi on 4/15/08, Rating: 0
RE: Same garbage
By eye smite on 4/15/2008 11:02:38 AM , Rating: 5
Immensely popular with who? How many of the populace in this country owns or uses a Mac daily? Seriously, I don't see Apple with a vast market share across the world or even N. America. I would say your statment is on the delusional side.


RE: Same garbage
By RamarC on 4/15/08, Rating: 0
RE: Same garbage
By darkpaw on 4/15/2008 11:50:01 AM , Rating: 5
Yet another Mac fiend quoting bad data. If you look at the actual NPD report, it only includes retail sales. 14% of retail sales is a lot different from 14% of the market share.

The larger revenue split just goes to show that Apple is ripping off their customers!


RE: Same garbage
By mforce on 4/15/2008 6:19:56 PM , Rating: 5
And even that percent of the retail sails is probably just in the USA. But the USA is not the world though and I'm sure there are many places where Macs are probably around 1%. Here in Romania almost no one has a Mac and there are probably more people that have Linux as I have said before here.

Macs have their market but it's highly unlikely they'll grow past a certain percent if they don't open up more. Of course things are looking pretty good now for them and maybe they're just satisfied with the way things are.

I used to admire Macs once and though they were so cool but having worked on one I can say I'm not impressed. It used to have its own hardware and OS. Now it's just an overpriced PC running OS X which is nothing more than fancy UI on top of a Unix shell.

Sure the iMac is cool looking and so is the Mac Mini being so small but at the end of the day it's getting the job done that counts for me and not how cute and small it is.

I'm no MS and Windows fan , far from it but I can't really say Macs are better for me it's one proprietary system versus the other even more proprietary Macs. With Windows at least you get to choose the hardware you want to run it on. I won't even go into Linux and open source here.


RE: Same garbage
By Reclaimer77 on 4/15/2008 6:24:49 PM , Rating: 5
Remember that market share can only be determined by PC's sold with Windows already installed. However its impossible to determine how many people a year are buying PC components and building their own Windows machines. PC's have a much bigger market share then those numbers indicate. Because as we all know, you can't build your own Mac.


RE: Same garbage
By AssBall on 4/16/2008 4:52:03 AM , Rating: 2
A devil's advocate argument...

How many companies want to buy 100 to 1000+ Macs that are harder to integrate into their IT model. Yar, you still have the companies that thing that photoshop/digital rendering is better on an Apple, but really... those are the companies out of touch considering current economics.

The fact is that MS owns at OEM.


RE: Same garbage
By mondo1234 on 4/16/2008 8:45:26 PM , Rating: 2
I have owned mostly PC's, but I also have a Linux machine and a Macbook.
I dont eat McDonalds hamburgers because they have sold billions and billions.


RE: Same garbage
By mixpix on 4/19/2008 2:06:21 AM , Rating: 2
But since there's one on every corner and they're open all night probably makes them a little more of an option.


RE: Same garbage
By FITCamaro on 4/15/2008 12:51:21 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Apple has a significant chunk of the higher end of the marketplace


The only thing higher end about the market share Apple has is the price. The hardware is equivalent to the lower end of the marketplace. A C2D, 2GB RAM, 250GB hard drive, and integrated graphics for nearly $1000 is hardly high end.


RE: Same garbage
By afkrotch on 4/15/08, Rating: -1
RE: Same garbage
By FITCamaro on 4/15/2008 1:00:50 PM , Rating: 5
You don't even have to go that far.

A basic C2D system with 2GB of RAM, 250GB hard drive, 512MB 8800GT, and Vista Premium is less than $1000.


RE: Same garbage
By jimbojimbo on 4/15/2008 1:48:43 PM , Rating: 3
Is that a slight against the PC or against the fact that you can't use it in a Mac at all?


RE: Same garbage
By othercents on 4/15/2008 4:30:39 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
BMW is 'popular' but still outsold by Chevy

Wow you're comparing Apple to BMW and PCs to Chevy? So that means I should get rid of my Suburban, which functions well when I am driving around 5 kids and 2 dogs, purchase a less functional, less reliable, and over priced X5 just because I can afford it?

Oh wait a snap.. Apple is like BMW. Now all we need is those catchy "I own a MAC" bumper sticker, so that other people know you have arrived.

Other


RE: Same garbage
By Christopher Barr on 4/15/08, Rating: 0
RE: Same garbage
By MrPickins on 4/15/2008 1:31:35 PM , Rating: 4
Or you could just secure your PC and have very little to fear from the internet. Oh, and you can do that for free.

And "superior platform" is a subjective term. I feel that the mostly open PC platform is superior for the ways I like to use a computer.


RE: Same garbage
By HighWing on 4/15/2008 1:47:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The premium we pay is worth every cent. Not only for a superior platform but more importantly, for relatively worry free internet use


I'm guessing you don't really check up on tech news that often. First off, I believe only recently on here even it was reported that the mac was the first computer to be cracked at a recent security expo. Second, just because no one wants to waste the time to bring them down DOES not make it superior. Sooner or later, I'm sure some bot-net group is going to get tired of the mac users snubness and bring them down hard. Third, controlling the hardware you run on also DOES NOT make it superior, because by doing that yes you can ensure that you software will never crash, but as is the case you severally limit your consumers options. Case in point, if any part breaks on my computer I can go to ANY electronic store and get a replacement for about $100 +/-. Can ANY mac user clam the same thing? So tell me again how a mac is still superior?


RE: Same garbage
By murphyslabrat on 4/15/08, Rating: 0
RE: Same garbage
By Lazarus Dark on 4/15/2008 7:21:04 PM , Rating: 4
I haven't had a virus or spyware in two years since I switched to Avast antivirus and firefox. Both are free. Your point is invalid.

Okay, Macs "just work". I'll give you that. Until they don't. And then you're screwed. My fiance has a mac and it gives me a headache whenever it starts screwing up, cause it's impossible to fix.


RE: Same garbage
By Operandi on 4/15/08, Rating: 0
RE: Same garbage
By retrospooty on 4/15/2008 9:55:07 PM , Rating: 5
I have to disagree with you there... Tech enthusiasts hate Macs. You cant even build your own, you have to but Apple's dullboy hardware. Mac's are for the non-technically inclined.


RE: Same garbage
By honeg on 4/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: Same garbage
By retrospooty on 4/16/2008 9:41:57 AM , Rating: 2
I work in IT, an I know many many Sysadmins, and all job levels from entry level to VP's. I have never EVER known any of them to use a Mac, for personal use or otherwise.


RE: Same garbage
By honeg on 4/16/2008 12:17:37 PM , Rating: 2
I work in software development (in the Bay Area), and I know plenty of sysadmins who swear by their macs.


RE: Same garbage
By Oscarine on 4/16/2008 1:53:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I work in software development (in the Bay Area), and I know plenty of sysadmins who swear by their macs


That just says everything right there...


RE: Same garbage
By eman7613 on 4/16/2008 4:42:07 PM , Rating: 2
While not many people own Macs, I know TONS of people who like them, but don't even comprehend the difference between a p4 512mb Dell and a 8 core 6gig Mac Pro, so they go with the cheaper computer. Ultimantly it depends on how you go about popular, whether it be that people like it, or that people buy it. But in the end this isnt Job's shooting himself in the foot.

Most people are idiots, especially when it comes to computers. Jobs really doesn't want to deal with a bunch of idiots coming into an apple store expecting assistance with a computer & operating system that they themselves did not sell. He is trying to build up a reputation of "Just working" which is a lot harder to do when you just have to work on everything.


RE: Same garbage
By AlphaVirus on 4/15/2008 11:12:33 AM , Rating: 5
Perhaps you did not read the article.

A mac clone costs $400 compared to a similar apple mac which costs $950. An extra $550 just to say you have an Apple product is more than enough to piss anyone off. If I was a mac user, I would honestly take it back and get the clone.

If Apple had not stopped the clones they would fall quickly. As that is their cash-in, overpricing everything because they know sheep will buy it.
quote:
What cave do you live in?? Macs are immensely popular.

Keep staying in whatever cave you live in, in our cave we have a system called 'self thought' where we can make our own decisions. We can add whatever hardware, software, and games to our systems that we want.

Have fun in your immensely popular sandbox.


RE: Same garbage
By Operandi on 4/15/08, Rating: -1
RE: Same garbage
By zsdersw on 4/15/2008 2:58:15 PM , Rating: 5
Big, sturdy cardboard boxes are popular, too.. to those living on the streets.. but that doesn't mean they're popular to everyone else.

Macs are popular in their niche(s) .. and that's it. I'd hardly call that similar to a general statement of popularity.


RE: Same garbage
By Operandi on 4/15/08, Rating: 0
RE: Same garbage
By jlips6 on 4/15/08, Rating: 0
RE: Same garbage
By jlips6 on 4/15/2008 9:16:33 PM , Rating: 3
here's where you say:
"I'm not your buddy, pal!"


RE: Same garbage
By stryfe on 4/16/2008 10:20:09 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not your pal, guy!


RE: Same garbage
By bfellow on 4/16/2008 11:37:42 AM , Rating: 2
You know why their stock value is high. It's because all their stuff is way overpriced.

Don't tell me about Macs being "secured" either. They are equally susceptible to application bugs like the one's in Apple's own Safari and the ever-buggy Apple Quicktime!


RE: Same garbage
By exanimas on 4/16/2008 3:16:30 PM , Rating: 2
(Guess I'll continue)

I'm not your guy, fwiend!


RE: Same garbage
By prenox on 4/16/2008 10:43:23 PM , Rating: 2
Their stock is high because of the iPod, not because Mac's are flying off shelves.


RE: Same garbage
By Noya on 4/15/2008 6:45:09 PM , Rating: 2
Why, because they spend millions on catchy TV ads?


RE: Same garbage
By retrospooty on 4/15/2008 9:56:56 PM , Rating: 2
" I don't own a Mac and doubt I ever will I'm just pointing out a fact; Macs are popular"

Apple is popular, mostly for ipod and iphone. The Mac platform itself has not been popular for the past decade... Sales went up recently, but still not even 10% as big as PC is.


RE: Same garbage
By Oregonian2 on 4/15/2008 4:28:16 PM , Rating: 5
Wouldn't piss Mac owners off, they'd be proud of it. Their machines being spendy is a status symbol (one of the main points of buying Apple -- which I have done too with iPods). If Apple sold their unit for $400 it would be labeled cheap-trash even though it was the very same unit -- but instead it's a piece of fine engineering to be $950. People judge quality by price and so for high quality the price must be high as well. Marketing 101.


RE: Same garbage
By darkpaw on 4/15/2008 5:17:15 PM , Rating: 2
Yah, just try and convince someone that bought a monster cable for $200 they wasted their money.

They spent so much it has to be better!


RE: Same garbage
By rudolphna on 4/15/08, Rating: 0
RE: Same garbage
By gradoman on 4/15/2008 10:05:57 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
my experiences with OSX (leopard) was more like being lost at sea in a dinghy during a Force 5 hurricane, and surrounded by Sharks trying to eat me.


What were you doing on the Mac that it was so horrible? I've been through a few hurricanes, none was 5, but I can assure you, my experience with 10.4 (haven't tried Leopard) has not been anywhere near that bad. Itunes, however...

You know, you only need to step into a design school, like say, Parsons (The New School) to see the artists working away in a predominantly Mac environment.

quote:
Mac users, you never/rarely see PC users spouting that bullcrap. nobody likes one of those.


Look at the forum. It's overrun with very similar comments that distill to: Macs are overpriced garbage not worth doing anything on and I can build my own damn comp that has better specs for cheaper.

Anyone daring enough to say they prefer a Mac is instantly skewered.

Macs are overpriced. There is no denying that. I see my girlfriend using her old Powerbook G4 for a lot of graphic design stuff and at Parsons, I saw plenty of students (she graduated 2 yrs ago), using them. She is interested in buying one of those Mac clones for her work as they are much cheaper and she's not too keen on sitting here trying to get a comp to work with OS X instead of getting work done.

Nobody's forcing you to use one or to buy one, but don't sit there and exaggerate about how awful an OS when it's probably no better or no worse than another.


RE: Same garbage
By maven81 on 4/16/2008 10:18:51 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You know, you only need to step into a design school, like say, Parsons (The New School) to see the artists working away in a predominantly Mac environment.


Hah!

I went to SVA in NYC. They had mac labs with (at the time) top of the line mac systems and monitors. Why? Because when people came in for open night to see what the school is like they got attracted by all the shiny stuff, and decided to go there. (at the time they also had completely worthless but cool looking SGI O2 boxes for the same reason). They later came to their senses and switched to BOXX workstations for all the heavy duty rendering.
(by the way the best artists that came out of there were people that had never done art on a computer before, a mac or a pc. Which should be obvious... the computer doesn't make you a good artist).


RE: Same garbage
By AlphaVirus on 4/16/2008 5:21:09 PM , Rating: 2
What type of OS does the BOXX system use?


RE: Same garbage
By 67STANG on 4/15/2008 11:12:54 AM , Rating: 5
Mac's user base consist of 2 generalized groups:

Art/Video/Print Production
Kids and adults who don't know better

I'm sorry, but that's not a stereotype, flame or a troll-- it's the real deal.

That's not to say that Mac's aren't gaining popularity, they are. The reason for this is because of today's society: Men are becoming more like women, women are becoming more like men. Most women never knew how to work on a car, now a lot of men don't either. The same can be said about computers.

Apple's advertising targets the "I don't know much about computers except for what computer commercials tell me." crowd quite effectively.


RE: Same garbage
By cobalt42 on 4/15/2008 11:45:48 AM , Rating: 3
I'm not disagreeing with you in general, but there's another category since OS X's inception: those who want both a UNIX-like operating system (for code development or scientific apps) and support for commercial apps that don't run on Linux (like MS Office). This applies even more for laptops, which for years had problems with basic functions like suspend.


RE: Same garbage
By talozin on 4/15/2008 12:24:52 PM , Rating: 5
I'm not disagreeing with you in general, but there's another category since OS X's inception: those who want both a UNIX-like operating system (for code development or scientific apps) and support for commercial apps that don't run on Linux (like MS Office).

I was pretty dubious about OS X when I was first introduced to it -- I'd been a Sun/Linux/Windows guy since I got out of college, and the only reason I wound up with a Mac was because my new job mandated it. (Yes, really. And no, I'm not in the art, film, or music industries.) I was pleasantly surprised -- it represents a nice alternative to dedicated Unix hardware (generally over-priced and under-capable) or the various flavors of Linux/xBSD (cheap and fast, but extract a toll in maintenance and application compatibility). You get Unix and you get it with a relatively painless desktop experience.

Yes, the hardware's on the pricey side -- it's not terrible compared to good-quality Windows boxes, but it's nowhere near as cheap as building your own. And the OS isn't a panacea -- I have Windows for gaming, and Linux on my house's fileserver. But having worked with OS X for a couple of years now, I find that the other computer niches in my life have almost all been converted over to Macs, and I don't seem to mind.


RE: Same garbage
By afkrotch on 4/15/2008 12:37:24 PM , Rating: 3
The problem with Macs is incompatibility. Throw them into a Linux/Windows network and you'll find they hate talking together. I'm a system admin and I find Macs to be the most troublesome POS in our network (until they were completely removed).

I personally don't see the usefulness of them outside of home users. That's it. Screw art, film, or music industry crap. You can't tell me there isn't such programs on the PC.


RE: Same garbage
By talozin on 4/15/2008 12:48:56 PM , Rating: 1
I'm a system admin and I find Macs to be the most troublesome POS in our network (until they were completely removed).

It's weird you should say that, because my experience as system admin for a mixed Mac/Linux/Windows network -- both at home and at work -- has been pretty much the opposite: generally, when something acts up, it's Windows.

Every network is different, I guess. Just goes to show why system administration is still an art, not a science.


RE: Same garbage
By afkrotch on 4/15/2008 12:57:03 PM , Rating: 3
I'm sure most of the problems have been resolved since I last had to work with them. Macs not talking to Windows, Macs not using NTFS, Office incompatibilities, etc.

Since they are all gone, the most troublesome POS in our network is Office 2007. Piece of crap software. Each new patch seems to bring out a new set of problems. Latest patch breaks Outlook. The fix? Open up Word first, then close it. Then Outlook works. Seriously WTF!?!


RE: Same garbage
By honeg on 4/16/2008 1:19:14 AM , Rating: 1
The problems you listed can be summarized as

"OS-X ain't Windows"

Well, of course. If you had more Macs than Windows machines, you'd be bitching about Windows. Windows not talking to Macs, Windows not using HFS, iWork incompatibilities, etc

Take two of the most closed OSes in the world, and its no surprise they don't play nice together. Funny thing is, Macs play beautifully with Solaris, Linux and BSD. Try saying *that* about Windows. Cygwin anyone?


RE: Same garbage
By BSDGuyShawn on 4/15/2008 1:00:35 PM , Rating: 3
I manage a heterogeneous network as well (Windows, Linux, and OS X). Our entire IT Department has moved to Apple MacBook Pro's and PowerBook's. So has our design department with the exception of one MacPro. We have a few other individuals that are also on OS X. We even have several XServe RAID's on our SAN and 1 XServe.

We never have problems with our OS X machines, it usually ends up being the Windows machines, as mentioned by others, with the problems.

I have always been more of a UNIX guy, and that is why I now use the Mac's exclusively.

I will not bad mouth Windows, I do not believe the personal computer market or society would be where it is, with respect to technology, without it.


RE: Same garbage
By stephan metier on 4/15/08, Rating: -1
RE: Same garbage
By stephan metier on 4/15/08, Rating: -1
RE: Same garbage
By darklight0tr on 4/15/2008 11:58:56 PM , Rating: 2
Totally agree here. I support both Macs and PCs in our environment and the Macs are by far the biggest troublemakers. The 150 or so Macs produce almost as many trouble tickets as the 1000 PCs.

Apples Active Directory support is just atrocious, and the Macs will frequently decide that they don't want to log on to the network. Also, Apple released a patch that caused Photoshop CS2 documents to be lost or corrupted when opening the file up on a server. The solution according to Apple and Adobe? Copy the file locally, edit it, and copy it back! How's that for network support? I can give many other examples too.

PCs certainly aren't perfect, but when it comes to networking they are way ahead of Macs.


RE: Same garbage
By P4blo on 4/15/2008 12:56:14 PM , Rating: 4
Apple are like computer pushers :) They're targeting the best people to overprice to, the ones with more money than sense. The ones who have no clue as to the true operational value of the unit, they just know that it looks so damn nice, shiny and stylish - they gotta have one. These are the same fashion victims that buy Gucci or Prada junk and pay thousands for something worth a few quid.

That only really leaves the design / graphics industry and they're on borrowed time. There's absolutely nothing you cant do on a PC just as well if not better (and certainly cheaper). I think soon these companies will start to realise they've been had.


RE: Same garbage
By honeg on 4/16/2008 1:29:47 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
The ones who have no clue as to the true operational value of the unit


The "operational value" of my Mac, as a software development platform, is far higher than any of my previous windows or linux machines. The total cost of ownership is lower (hence value is higher) because I don't have to waste hours fighting to make it work, as I did with the other platforms. I have windows and linux installed on it, and I rarely use either, because there is very very little I need out of either of them hat OS-X doesn't give me. I'll spend an extra 10% to get OS-X because I recoup the cost in a few hours of work.


RE: Same garbage
By rcc on 4/15/2008 4:42:05 PM , Rating: 2
lol, and they call Mac users smug and opinionated.

I'm not a Mac user, but you are about 60% wrong. And that's not a stereotype (ok, it's getting close), flame, or troll, welcome to the semi-real world.


RE: Same garbage
By honeg on 4/16/2008 2:00:41 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Kids and adults who don't know better

I'm sorry, but that's not a stereotype, flame or a troll-- it's the real deal.


That is a stereotype. A lot of people just want a computer that is easy to use, does what they want, and keeps working for a decent amount of time, without a lot of hassle. These people know exactly what hey want out of their computers, and Macs deliver it better than Windows machines do.

Also, you completely missed the third group - people who spend their lives working on computers (developing software or keeping things alive), and choose Macs because they JFW.


RE: Same garbage
By afkrotch on 4/15/2008 12:28:12 PM , Rating: 1
No, Apple needs a market full of expensive generic clones that they have control over, yet don't bother patching the bugs. No big deal, cause no one really bothers screwing with the small userbase.


RE: Same garbage
By FITCamaro on 4/15/2008 12:58:52 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
The last thing Apple needs is market full of cheap generic clones that they have no control over.


Yeah because then they'd have to deal with the same things Windows does.


RE: Same garbage
By kelmon on 4/16/2008 4:10:35 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yeah because then they'd have to deal with the same things Windows does.


I'm confused - are you suggesting this is a good or bad thing? Apple needs to get its act together with ensuring that its own products are bullet-proof but I certainly don't think that it's good that Windows has more problems to deal with. Introducing new problems is never a good idea.


RE: Same garbage
By FITCamaro on 4/16/2008 8:15:19 AM , Rating: 2
My comment was a sarcastic one.

I was saying that they're against systems outside their control because then people will start wanting support on other hardware. Which means they need to support more drivers. Which is the world Window's lives in. You can run Windows on any x86 compatible hardware. As such, there are thousands of drivers out there that Microsoft has to try to make sure the OS works with. Drivers are the root of a lot of the problems people experience with Windows. If Windows only ran on hardware Microsoft designated, there would be far fewer problems.

OSX exists in a world where all hardware it legally runs on is perfectly compatible because it was written with that hardware in mind.


RE: Same garbage
By phxfreddy on 4/15/2008 6:53:19 PM , Rating: 2
This so tarnishes Apples glistening reputation.....
....
You know, the one that is like mucus on a fresh minted doggy doody


RE: Same garbage
By INeedCache on 4/15/2008 9:56:38 PM , Rating: 2
I'm just waiting for New York City to show Apple where it's at. I think Apple barked up the wrong tree with that logo stuff.


RE: Same garbage
By leidegre on 4/16/2008 1:57:46 AM , Rating: 2
Apple do know how to make money, no questions about it. I use both a PC dekstop and MacBook3,1 simple becuase it's good fit for me. But the price of Apple stuff is really bad.

Apple must make huge profit on hardware, becuase they sell mini-DVI adapters for ~$33 (which aren't even compatible with flexible DVI standards) which is just stealing, and memory upgrade? I would have to pay ~$671 for Apple store to get me more memory, I bought 4 GiB Crosair memory for ~$117. And the list goes on, but the strange thing is that they sell software rather cheap compared to other alternatives. Office (for Windows) $499, for OS X $149 and iWorks $79 so that's a nice shift.

I'm pretty sure Apple is making a pretty good profity on their hardware sales (and if that is your primary income you would think they want to protect that). Still, it serves them right to maybe re-think what they are doing, becuase this cheap hardware is at least as good, it might not look as appealing on the outside, but not everyone cares about that.


RE: Same garbage
By marsbound2024 on 4/16/2008 11:35:02 PM , Rating: 2
Darn Creative... I mean Apple!


Site works, still on sale, change of name
By noxipoo on 4/15/2008 10:41:33 AM , Rating: 6
http://www.psystar.com/shop/openmac.html

open computing now, but it's still clearly a mac clone.




RE: Site works, still on sale, change of name
By eye smite on 4/15/2008 10:49:25 AM , Rating: 2
Kudos to Psystar for staying with this. Wonder how long it will take Apple to fire shots on this one.


RE: Site works, still on sale, change of name
By omnicronx on 4/15/2008 11:23:20 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think they can ;) Anyone can copy Mac hardware now since it uses Intel processors. Theres no reason to believe that the same components mac uses are not freely available to those that want to assemble a board. As long as the components that have been picked have suitable drivers, anyone can just buy a version of leopard from apple and install it on their Mac compatible computer.


RE: Site works, still on sale, change of name
By B3an on 4/15/2008 2:12:19 PM , Rating: 2
We all know this. The reason Apple can take legal action is because this company is installing Apples OSuX on these machines, and Apple dont allow that on any other machine unless it has a genuine Apple Logo on, a tiny logo you pay $500 more for.


By Pythias on 4/15/2008 3:35:31 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Apples OSuX


Priceless. I'm naming my next child B3an. Then I'm teaching it how to box.


RE: Site works, still on sale, change of name
By omnicronx on 4/15/2008 5:02:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The reason Apple can take legal action is because this company is installing Apples OSuX on these machines, and Apple dont allow that on any other machine unless it has a genuine Apple Logo on
According to their EULA.. not neccessarily the law. Some would argue that only end users are even subject to the EULA, is psystar really considered an end user? and is their EULA even enforcable?. knowing apple, the answers to both could easily be NO!

The EULA to me means little to nothing, as many of us break one every day and don't even know it. Just think, have you ever installed vista on vmware? Well if you did, you broke the windows EULA! Whether microsoft could go on a suing rampage is a totally different story.


RE: Site works, still on sale, change of name
By throx on 4/15/2008 9:49:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Just think, have you ever installed vista on vmware? Well if you did, you broke the windows EULA!


From my Vista EULA:
You may use the software installed on the licensed device within a virtual (or otherwise emulated) hardware system on the licensed device.
Reading r gud.


By darkpaw on 4/15/2008 11:10:18 PM , Rating: 2
This was a recent change (within last 6 months). Originally, the EULA only allowed virtualization of Business, Enterprise, and Ultimate. I generally like MS, but that was stupid and it's a good thing that they changed it. IIRC, it was also against the EULA to virtualize XP home as well. Of course Apple doesn't allow virtulizing OSX at all (unless of course you're already on a MAC!).


RE: Site works, still on sale, change of name
By zombiexl on 4/15/2008 10:51:01 AM , Rating: 2
Thanks for the link. I'm considering ordering one. Being able to test software on a Mac would make it easier for me to make cross platform apps. And for 554.99 (with leopard installed) it's not a bad price.


By gradoman on 4/15/2008 11:06:11 AM , Rating: 2
I was about to ask if anyone has had any experience with one of these Psystar computers as yet. Would be cool to order a cheap alternative that doesn't require digging around the internet for ways to install OS X on some random computer.


RE: Site works, still on sale, change of name
By Mitch101 on 4/15/2008 1:41:45 PM , Rating: 2
At this price I might actually try a MAC. If anything this should open the eyes of Mr Jobs that maybe just maybe there would be more demand for a MAC if the price wasn't insane.


By AlphaVirus on 4/15/2008 3:31:08 PM , Rating: 3
Thats the problem, even at a high price people are still buying it. I usually blame things such as the Mac vs PC commercials, MTV shows (The Hills, Runs House, etc), VH1 shows, and a couple of other things. If you check any of the listed items, a regular consumer will notice it and say "Ooo isnt that an Apple, I heard they dont get viruses, I want one"

It doesnt make it any better that the average person that watches these stations are girls that can cry "Ferrari!" and the parents get a Mercedes to make them shutup.
A little overexagerated but, you get my point. :)


By zombiexl on 4/15/2008 10:55:31 AM , Rating: 2
Did you see they have a mac Pro clone too? Although based on available configs it appears to be single socket.


By gyranthir on 4/15/2008 11:54:03 AM , Rating: 2
nice, the EULA is not enforceable. If this doesn't cause Apple to change it. Someone else will probably take up the flag to change it.


By cidman2001 on 4/15/2008 12:24:47 PM , Rating: 5
I like this move even if they seem to be doomed to getting buried by Jobs & Company. You can max out this system with every available option for $2169 and have a system that puts anything Apple has to offer to shame. Great deal!

I've been following this story from the beginning and have seen many erroneous reports (like this one) that the website has been shut down by Apple attorneys. The more likely story here is that there is so much interest in this story, it has crashed their servers.

If you think about it, this is a great viral marketing plan for Psystar and a looming PR nightmare for Apple. Consider the volume of traffic being generated, and consider that these systems are still a pretty decent deal even if you opt to go with a Windows, Linux or no OS version. In all likelyhood Apple will stick it to them hard, but the genie is out of the bottle. Psystar will be the hero and Apple will be the bad guy. What they have effectively done here is let the world know that there is a workaround for Apple's draconian hardware licensing and given them the blueprint on how to do it. I say good luck to Apple as they try to stuff the genie back in.

http://vmgblog.blogspot.com/2008/04/coolmac-osx-on...


By johnsonx on 4/15/2008 5:28:23 PM , Rating: 2
I'd be worried about buying one of these though... couldn't Apple fairly easily break these things with a software update?


By eye smite on 4/15/2008 5:41:23 PM , Rating: 2
And AGAIN.......

Kudos to Psystar for staying with this. Wonder how long it will take Apple to fire shots on this one.


By crystal clear on 4/16/2008 9:56:42 AM , Rating: 2
This will kill the mac clone !

the terms of the EFI V8 licence, which expressly forbids the use of the emulator for commercial purposes.


Read my comment Psystar is finished


Apple, apple, apple
By Micronite on 4/15/2008 10:48:38 AM , Rating: 5
Apple should really take advantage of the fact that Vista hasn't taken off and open up their OS to standard x86 systems. I realize it's a dangerous world out there with drivers, but Microsoft managed to make bank without producing hardware.

I could easily see them offering OS X at a premium when installed on non-Apple systems.

Sometimes I think Apple is its own worst enemy.




RE: Apple, apple, apple
By 306maxi on 4/15/2008 10:52:17 AM , Rating: 5
Perhaps the Apple image wouldn't translate so well if lots of people have one. I mean if you can't tell a non-Mac user that you've got a Mac and how it's so much better than what they have then what's the point?


RE: Apple, apple, apple
By Polynikes on 4/15/2008 11:11:09 AM , Rating: 5
Yeah, Apple doesn't want to destroy their loyal clique. Without them, there's no "Apple products are hip" aura.


RE: Apple, apple, apple
By Murst on 4/15/2008 10:54:02 AM , Rating: 5
Apple already has enough problems w/ their OS without having to worry about hardware.

There's no way in hell they'd be able to compete w/ any OS out there if they had to support billions of hardware configurations, when they have problems supporting a handful.


RE: Apple, apple, apple
By djc208 on 4/15/2008 2:51:57 PM , Rating: 4
It's also a lot easier to develop and design all those nifty features and interfaces when you don't have to spend as much time trying to support the entire hardware spectrum and patch every security hole.

Windows is like that old saying: "Jack-of-all-trades, master of none".


RE: Apple, apple, apple
By darkpaw on 4/15/2008 4:41:38 PM , Rating: 3
There is one thing that Windows has mastered, gaming.


RE: Apple, apple, apple
By Scott66 on 4/15/2008 8:55:22 PM , Rating: 1
The only thing Windows has mastered is critical mass and Vista is doing a wonderful job at reversing the trend. Mac OS 10.5 was the fastest adopted Operating System (Percentage of adoption by existing owners) Vista has scared it's potential customers to the point that Microsoft keeps extending XP's availability while already talking about Vista's replacement.


RE: Apple, apple, apple
By darkpaw on 4/15/2008 11:12:11 PM , Rating: 2
Thats only because Apple doesn't give anything away for free and you have to pay for your service packs.

Most people don't need Vista until they actually buy a new PC (this from a happy Vista user). (Most) people that buy regular PCs are smart enough to not to waste money on something they have no need for.


RE: Apple, apple, apple
By Scott66 on 4/16/2008 9:46:06 AM , Rating: 2
10.5 is not comparable to MS's service packs. New features and total changes to how the Operating system functions goes well beyond a grouping of security updates and glitch fixes.


RE: Apple, apple, apple
By cidman2001 on 4/15/2008 12:28:12 PM , Rating: 2
Excellent point made....


RE: Apple, apple, apple
By Belard on 4/15/2008 3:13:11 PM , Rating: 1
I agree... with Vista being the total POS that it is, this is the perfect time for Apple to gain some market share.

They can still make quite a bit of money by NOT selling hardware - let the "Cloners" take care of their own tech support. Just sell them a Licence version that isn't "Apple Apple" for an extra $50~100.

I sure won't pay the extra $$$ for an Apple logo computer, I never have, never will. Back in the late 80s, the Amiga with simular hardware specs would be $900 for the computer (1mb / floppy / color display) vs a $2000 10" B&W model. The 1987 MacII (16Mhz CPU, 1mb, 10MB HD, 256color card - no monitor) was about $6000 vs an Amiga2000 at $2500.

And people nowadays complain about $200 video cards! LOL! Back in 1987, that $6000 computer would be like $10,000 today.

Come on Apple, allow SELECT companies to sell clones that YOU don't have to support. There is a HUGE hole in Apples product line. Either the All-in-one totally non-upgradable iMac for $1200~2200 or the $2000~5000 MacPro which isn't Super Fast due to its expensive high-latency FB-DIMM RAM modules. Where is they single CPU (dual or quad core) $800~1500 tower? That's all they need! Something like a SHUTTLE PC with 1-2 slots that'll allow the end user to add a GF8800 or ATI 3800 type card...

But wow... either Expensive non-upgradable systems or Super Expensive Overkill workstations. Come-on, $250 for a single 500GB HD? Their costs is about $75!

Apple themselves would make a killing selling $800~1200 mini-towers... and less desire of people wanting or needing clones. But I *DO* see the problem with such a Mac, it would almost most likely eat about 75% of the MacPRO line of computers. Apple wants to make the most $$$ per PC sold, but not understanding that MORE users = More software support and sales of upgrades & OS upgrades = more money too.

I bet if Apple sold a $1000 mini tower, sales would be like this, but perhaps doubled:

Before: 1000 Mac sold: 15% = MacPro, 40% = iMac, 40% = Notebooks, 5% = MacMinis.

After : 2000 Macs sold: 10% = MacPro, 15% = iMac, 40% = Notebooks, 5% = MacMinis, 30% = MacTower $1000.

My Case is a high-end white & silver Antec design that looks as good as a MacPro (in my opinion). I don't want Vista, I'm buying an extra copy of XP for a future upgrade or ebay... A $1000 MacTower would perk some intrests in a possible buyer such as myself.

PC Gaming *IS* going down hill, so Weak MAC gaming doesn't matter much anymore.

Come-on Apple, stop doing stupid things like Commodore - those retards had the BEST PC for the lowest price but screwed up with stupidity.


RE: Apple, apple, apple
By Cullinaire on 4/15/2008 7:54:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
My Case is a high-end white & silver Antec design that looks as good as a MacPro (in my opinion).


Interestingly (or coincidentally) the case that PsyStar uses for their "Pro" system is the Antec P182 Special Edition (The silver one) with no modifications that I can see. This is the first time I have seen an OEM use an unmodified retail case.


RE: Apple, apple, apple
By Gondorff on 4/15/2008 9:12:26 PM , Rating: 2
I don't know, I've seen a fair few systems being sold with retail cases... especially in tech oriented stores.

Additionally, I recognize the non-Pro case as an Asus case I saw a while ago on Newegg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
I see no modifications on this one either.


RE: Apple, apple, apple
By kelmon on 4/16/2008 4:18:24 AM , Rating: 1
Repeat after me: APPLE IS NOT MICROSOFT

I know it's hard not to confuse this but Apple is not in competition with Microsoft but rather with the likes of HP, Dell and Levono. Apple makes software to sell hardware and without the hardware business the whole company goes bust. Licensing OS X to other hardware vendors would be suicide without changing the whole business model and, since they already make "shit-load of cash", what is the incentive to change? Apple is taking advantage of the issues with Vista simply to sell more Macs - if someone else sells the Mac and they only receive about $100 or less from an OS X license then they're hardly capitalising.

Regardless of what you think of Apple and Steve Jobs, they clearly know what they are doing these days and they definitely know more about this than you do.


RE: Apple, apple, apple
By bfellow on 4/16/2008 4:12:54 PM , Rating: 2
NEWS FLASH: They are in competition with Microsoft over software AND HP, Dell, and every other hardware vendor.

Apple software they use/sell: Quicktime, Safari, OSX, iTunes, etc.

So basically Apple is monopolizing their OS to be on Apple hardware only while everyone else is hardware independent?

Even if this is an April Fool's joke, this should open people's eyes about Apple.


RE: Apple, apple, apple
By kelmon on 4/17/2008 2:40:12 AM , Rating: 2
* Bangs head on desk *

No, they are not in competition with Microsoft (except in the area of products that run on the Mac, specifically in the Office arena, and that only started recently) because Microsoft does not make computers - is this concept really so difficult to grasp? The software that Apple makes until recently (excepting QuickTime Player) only runs on a Mac and it's sole purpose is to sell hardware. If you remove the hardware component then there is no business. Seriously, what would be the point of Apple licensing their OS to other hardware manufacturers?

Microsoft and Apple are not in competition with each other. If anything, Apple is helping Microsoft out these days by selling computers that Windows can be installed on. Heck, I bought a license for XP Pro and Office 2007 a couple of years ago and I couldn't have done that with my old G4 PowerBook unless I particularly wanted to enjoy the pain of VirtualPC.


Pointless polarization
By Zellski on 4/15/2008 12:31:27 PM , Rating: 2
Every day I use Linux on the server, Linux on the desktop, Windows, and Mac OS X. I have multiple machines I've put together from scratch and I have sleek Apple hardware that I love. All of these solutions have their virtues, but make no mistake, Apple's design and engineering skills are unparalleled in the industry. This endless insistence that Mac users are bling-loving floozies is frankly pathetic. Running Windows does not make you a man.




RE: Pointless polarization
By yodataco on 4/15/2008 12:44:00 PM , Rating: 2
I use all platforms available also, but I still disagree with you. Apple does over charge for their hardware products. They also have very short upgrade intervals, which is not very "green" if you ask me. There is nothing amazing in the engineering world about puting a laptop inside a 20" or 24" display and calling it a beautiful marvel to behold. Yes, the iMac looks great, but Apple gets away with charging $1100 for a $170 20" LCD screen stuffed with the parts equivallent of a $500 laptop. A $500 laptop that I might add also comes with a 15" screen and a copy of Windows Vista...thus you could really argue that it's stuffed with $300 worth of laptop parts......


RE: Pointless polarization
By afkrotch on 4/15/2008 12:50:46 PM , Rating: 5
That's the engineering marvel. Being able to cram all that in there and get ppl to actually buy it. We'll just call it social engineering.


RE: Pointless polarization
By darkpaw on 4/15/2008 4:49:10 PM , Rating: 3
Great one, just about spit my soda on the screen.


RE: Pointless polarization
By rcc on 4/15/2008 4:59:05 PM , Rating: 2
So don't buy it, what's the big deal?


RE: Pointless polarization
By kelmon on 4/16/2008 4:24:50 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
They also have very short upgrade intervals


Relative to who? I honestly think that the upgrade interval is long relative to the rest of the industry. The transition to Intel has made the process much more transparent given the public roadmaps and the major updates come when Intel releases a new processor along with everyone else. Bumping the specs on models once every 6-12 months is hardly a fast upgrade cycle and my MacBook Pro hasn't really been overhauled since the model was released back in January 2006.


RE: Pointless polarization
By FITCamaro on 4/15/2008 1:05:14 PM , Rating: 3
Running OSX doesn't make you cool or smart. But their commercials sure make you think so.


RE: Pointless polarization
By maven81 on 4/15/2008 1:31:54 PM , Rating: 2
The best design skills in the world won't help you if your hardware is made in China by the lowest bidder. Your failure rates will be directly equivalent to every other PC made in China.
(which from past experience in a large agency with 300 or so macs is on the order of 8-10%)


RE: Pointless polarization
By Yawgm0th on 4/15/2008 1:50:07 PM , Rating: 3
Apple might have unparalleled "design" skills in the industry in terms of aesthetic value. They look nice. The mini has a decent form factor. Apple does not, however, have unparalleled engineering skills. Apple does not even engineer hardware anymore, and even on the software side they do little more than shell programming. The software is far from engineered perfectly, and there are plenty of documented examples indicating such, as well as general public opinion in both the consumer and business sectors.

The hardware is virtually identical to hardware used by PC manufactures -- except it has been proven to be much worse in recent models (early Macbook and Macbook Pros, Macbook Air, Macbook LCD panels, etc.), and the old Power models were far from comparable to their x86 contemporaries.

Frankly, there's not much argument to be made that Apple's engineering skills are even up to par in the industry. Sun, Dell, and HP make much better servers (not considering the software), and most of the big OEMs make better desktops and much better laptops. Even the iPhone and iPod have superior contemporaries -- just not superior marketing.

Aesthetic value and marketing are the Apple's key strengths.


RE: Pointless polarization
By jlips6 on 4/15/2008 3:32:12 PM , Rating: 2
I frankly find apple's asthetic value higher than standard, but not high-end asthetics. At least, compared to this.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://gizm... I have a G4 that runs Macintosh 9.4 (Which is kick ass, make no mistake.) and I love the design and ease of upgrade (it's practiacally not a mac!) But they discontinued it. Big suprise. That was my favorite macintosh of all time. It was good. I have a older macintosh in a nondescript box before they tried to be stylish, and I have a several year old iBook with a battery that litterally lasts 10 minutes while doing nothing. The iBook is... well.. old. It can't keep up with it's new OS (leapord) and the design is wasted on me because we had to tape over a crack in the case and all the keyboard letters rubbed off. and that turn the plain smooth design in to a low-end sketch by someone who is designing with the idea of a laptop not made to last beyond 6 months.

Even when it was new I don't think much of their design. It's all perspective.

Plus I like changeable lighting effects everywhere on my computer. :p
that's just me.


RE: Pointless polarization
By VashHT on 4/15/2008 2:07:27 PM , Rating: 2
I just have to say that if you think the form factor is the most important piece of engineering that a computer has to offer then you do care about "bling" as you put it. Unparalleled in the industry is a ridiculous claim, there are plenty of really nice cases out there, its not like Apple makes the only good ones.


RE: Pointless polarization
By Smartless on 4/15/2008 4:38:47 PM , Rating: 2
I have to agree. I actually created an account finally since I just have to say it and don't care about the flames. My fiancee's family are heavily Mac and I was always irritated by how they switched and their smug attitude but.. after using their machines,.. Mac's work well and their software works well. My impression of these flame wars are that PC people like me love our freedom and we all FEAR the idea of not being able to choose. I know I'm stating the obvious but pretty much everyone here either builds their own pcs or works in the industry. Mac users normally don't do either. Mac users are normally converted Dell, HP, or whatever customers who never cared enough to use their machines other than email, occasional photo editing, internet, and now for Ipod use. Macs do what they're designed for very well and they'll become much more popular if they make it a necessity for multimedia (movies, music,etc). Flame me for the obvious.


RE: Pointless polarization
By MGSsancho on 4/15/2008 8:34:22 PM , Rating: 2
problem is right there. Which HP and DELL models are you referring to? An old $750 pc/printer/monitor in a box? hp and dell bot make crappy lower end systems. margins are razor think. try working with a dell XPS or an HP workstation. how about a Sun workstation. if you are going to compare a $1700 mac to a $750 PC be my guess. but if you are goin to compare a macpro, compare it to a comparable workstation. I will not even go into mercury workstations or cofax machines.

all the anti-mac-fans here are try to say is compare similarly speced or priced system before you go one what is better. re-read the OP. >$500 markup is alot what ever way you look at it.


RE: Pointless polarization
By Smartless on 4/16/2008 9:41:01 PM , Rating: 2
Good point. Though my point is more towards your choices. There are tons of programs for PC and an equally daunting amount of hardware. Iphoto works well albeit for the guy who likes to tweak stuff its not good enough. They sell anything that has the "I" in front of it and people know its going to work. The only dominating one-stop-shop on a PC is MS Office. Everything else requires much more thought and research. That's more what I meant. Also I had in mind laptops when comparing Dell and HP which most Mac users tend to use.
http://www.dailytech.com/Mac+Use+Leads+To+SnobEffe...
LOL this article still cracks me up.


Stupid Apple
By 306maxi on 4/15/2008 10:51:01 AM , Rating: 2
If they had any intelligence they'd pursue the Microsoft route of getting a little bit from a lot of sales rather than a lot from a few sales.

But perhaps there's merit in this line of thought after all most problems with Windows machines outside of ME were memory or PSU related and if anyone can build a Mac then I guess they would start to have these sort of problems and they wouldn't be special anymore.

Either way this sucks for people who want OSX (not me) and who don't want to buy underspecced and overpriced hardware to run it on.




RE: Stupid Apple
By mmntech on 4/15/2008 11:09:30 AM , Rating: 3
The primary reason Apple doesn't release OS X for PC hardware is because they didn't want to loose control of the platform like IBM did. Opening up to cloning pretty much destroyed IBM's PC business. I'll leave it up to you to decide whether that makes sense or not.

Apple has tested the waters for clones. Back in the mid-1990s, Motorola produced a line of Mac clones under the StarMax brand. I still have mine. I think they were only for sale for a couple of years before Apple changed their mind.


RE: Stupid Apple
By yodataco on 4/15/2008 12:29:02 PM , Rating: 4
Actually your argument is null in terms of technology and business today. IBM originally created a platform. A platform that most every computer uses today. Without it, even Mac users would not be typing away on their dainty and thin keyboards. IBM made tons of money creating this platform, and now they make tons of money creating server software. Apple has no platform, only hardware based on IBM's original platform provided by Intel and an operating system named OSX.

Apple loves to compare their products to Dell. The problem is, Apple's true competitor is Microsoft, and for some reason they still don't get that. Microsoft got where it is today by realizing that people want a choice. Thus, Windows supports every single piece of hardware it can. Heck, Windows is even supported on Mac's, and Apple proudly advertises that fact.

Apple will only challenge Microsoft if they actually get good in house programmers that can deal with more than one kind of CPU, Video Card, Chipset, etc. There are only 2 things standing between Apple and wider acceptance.

1) Hardware Drivers (easy enough)
2) Themselves (much harder to break habbits and beliefs)


RE: Stupid Apple
By enlil242 on 4/15/2008 5:03:21 PM , Rating: 2
Just to clarify... IBM did not create the PC Platform. If my memory serves me correct, when they went to develop the PC, the engineers used "off the shelf" hardware to develop an open architecure system to save time and money. This led the way for other companies to "clone" it.

Nothing about the IBM PC was proprietary except the BIOS, which was quickly emulated by Compaq and other companies which is what it sounds like this company did to get OSX to install.


RE: Stupid Apple
By Scott66 on 4/15/2008 9:24:52 PM , Rating: 2
IBM created a proprietary and far superior platform, Microchannel to replace ISA and wanted to license it. The rest of the PC industry said "Screw you" and made their own hardware standard PCI. Luckily there was different operating system available for them to use. Us lucky consumers spent many years fighting with IRQ's that Microchannel would have done away with.

This is why Apple wants to control both its hardware and software. Once others get into the act, there are too many groups with interests different than Apple.


RE: Stupid Apple
By rcc on 4/15/2008 5:19:47 PM , Rating: 2
Perhaps true on some level.

However,

GM could also focus on mopeds, or chain saws. It wouldn't make them a better or worse company, just different than they are today.

Apple could change their business model, some day I'm sure they will, although not perhaps as you would have them do it. But what they are doing is successful, and making them money. If your goal is not to be "like MS", why would you start by emulating them.


ULA Not Enforceable
By Flunk on 4/15/2008 10:47:44 AM , Rating: 5
ULAs that violate anti-trust or other consumer protection laws are not enforceable. This is quite likely one of them, in fact almost all ULAs are not legally enforceable.




RE: ULA Not Enforceable
By darkpaw on 4/15/2008 11:17:56 AM , Rating: 3
You're probably right about that, but in the business world he with the most lawyers wins.

I doubt a small company can compete with Apples well trained legal attack dogs. Anytime anything remotely threatening to Apple's complete domination of its customers surfaces, Jobs releases his hounds faster then Montgomery Burns ever could.


RE: ULA Not Enforceable
By Chris Peredun on 4/15/2008 12:19:56 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I doubt a small company can compete with Apples well trained legal attack dogs.


No, but a small company that wins favor with the EFF and gets their team of well-trained attack lawyers on their side could compete quite nicely.


RE: ULA Not Enforceable
By Pirks on 4/15/2008 3:18:26 PM , Rating: 2
It's VERY unilkely that EFF will bother defending Psystar, 'cause it's a business matter, nothing related to freedom of speech and expression and whatever EFF is working to protect, including consumer's choice as well - you can buy any personal comnputer you want these days, with any popular desktop or server OS like Linux or whatever, nobody FORCES you to buy a Mac, so no harm's done to freedom and EFF has nothing to say here.

Although, personally, I'd just LOOOVE seeing EFF trying to defend Psystar, that would be the BEST COOLEST WILDEST legal case in AGES!!!

Too bad EFF has no legal ground to stand on in this case.


Windows
By L33tMasta on 4/15/2008 11:53:55 AM , Rating: 3
Atleast Vista lets you use it on any computer you want...




RE: Windows
By Yawgm0th on 4/15/08, Rating: 0
RE: Windows
By FITCamaro on 4/15/2008 1:11:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
At least Mac OS 10.5 runs very well a much wider variety of hardware


Really....funny because I think this article alone shows that it doesn't. Can it run? Yes if you hack and fool it to. But pretty much only on Intel platforms. There's serious issues trying to get it to work properly on an AMD system.


RE: Windows
By jlips6 on 4/17/2008 9:26:41 AM , Rating: 2
quote: Yes, but it only works reasonably well on modern computers, discluding some recent models that were advertised to run it. At least Mac OS 10.5 runs very well a much wider variety of hardware -- including some not it wasn't designed to support.

are you saying that leapord works on old systems? Because that's certaintly what you're implying. Have you tried using leapord on an old system? I'm guessing not. It doesn't really work. I functions, yes, but it crashes consistantly, and many of the features seem worthless.
my system is an old iBook, 933Mghz processor, 712MB ram, 40GB hard drive. More than the minimum it asks you to have, it functions horribly.


RE: Windows
By rcc on 4/15/2008 5:28:05 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Atleast Vista lets you use it on any computer you want...


I'm sorry but I can't resist.

Where do I get my copy for the TRS-80? Or a SparcStation, or, or, a Cray xyz???

: )


RE: Windows
By MGSsancho on 4/15/2008 8:40:57 PM , Rating: 2
crays xt3 uses opteron processors. but the seacale chips.... good point =P


RE: Windows
By kelmon on 4/16/2008 4:30:42 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Atleast Vista lets you use it on any computer you want...


It does? Well, whoop-dee-fucking-do, I'd better rush out and buy it. Hang on a mo - I hate Windows with a fiery passion. But at least it runs on any computer.

I'm sorry but Vista running on any PC is only a selling point if you actually like the Windows platform. If you do then that's great and you have a lot of choice. If you don't like Windows then this is totally immaterial and can hardly be considered as a feature.


People tend to forget.....
By Moseleysc on 4/15/2008 2:04:22 PM , Rating: 2
That Apple did clones before. My dad was a professor, so due to the large presence of Apples on his campus our first home computer was a Mac.

That first computer was pretty good (before the clones), but I remember distinctly the era of the Clones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_clone). The product lines were HORRIBLE to decipher and the quality was crap. We switched to PC shortly after that. Obviously it shows how hard a job windows has...allowing your software to work on diverse hardware is a difficult thing.

Steve Jobs rightly put an end to the clones. Say what you will about him, but you have to acknowledge that he saved the company. Apple wouldn't have worked as another Microsoft. At the time their OS was limping along and the hardware wasn't good. He trimed down the product offerings and made the product line-up easy to decipher all while bringing stuff from Next that really helped out the company OS wise. Maybe it doesn't offer everything to everyone hardware-wise, but what he did was good business. It was simply a smart thing to do.

The other thing people forget is that Apple is business. They need to make money. Their market share is increasing slowly and they are making more money at a time when other companies (such as Dell and Moto) are slashing jobs and loosing revenue. People seem to identify with their marketing and marketing is part of business. You and I might be able to build a computer WAY cheaper than an iMac that would totally spank it spec wise, but most people really don't care about that.

I work in web design and there is always some jerk who will charge $10,000 for an ok website. They get away with it not because of their skills at design, but because of other things like customer service and marketing. Sometimes it sucks to be the guy who looses out to someone bidding higher than you, but you have to acknowledge that they are good at business. The customer sees something that is valuable to them - enough to pay the premium.

So that is what I see when I look at Apple. They make good business decisions (for the most part) and do good by their share-holders. They market that their stuff "Just works" and if people buy into that and agree with that after buying one, why does it matter to you if they don't allow clones? It is their OS and they can choose to do with it what they want. (I know someone is going to bring up EULA law....but that is a whole 'nother ball of wax - as the law stands they can restrict the OS to their hardware as they are techinically licensing the OS to you - it isn't yours)

Steve




RE: People tend to forget.....
By Chriz on 4/15/2008 2:45:32 PM , Rating: 2
Times are different now though compared to the old Mac clone days. Now that OS X runs on Intel hardware, there would be no need for new clones. Regular PC's out there right now would be able to run the OS (assuming there are drivers). I really think it would help Apple gain market share and also make Microsoft a lot more competitive (which is a good thing).


RE: People tend to forget.....
By Moseleysc on 4/15/2008 3:18:49 PM , Rating: 2
True. Point taken, but until there is some sort of ruling on the Apple EULA, or EULA law in general, it is within Apple's rights to restrict OS X to Apple machines. Changing this would change a great deal of their business model. Right now the appeal of their software drives the sale of their hardware, which is where the money is for them. Not impossible for them to emulate Microsoft....just saying that it would change their current model.


RE: People tend to forget.....
By zombiexl on 4/15/2008 3:17:02 PM , Rating: 2
My memory may be a bit hazy on this but i'm pretty darn sure it was bill gates and the money MS invested to keep apple from going under that saved apple.


RE: People tend to forget.....
By Moseleysc on 4/15/2008 3:25:32 PM , Rating: 2
You are right that Bill Gates did give them an infusion, so I probably shouldn't have said jobs SAVED them. The cash infusion could have done that. However, I think being honest you would have to say that if they continued on the track they were on - cash infusion or not - they wouldn't have done as well as they have recently as a company. Jobs gave them a different focus and that focus - regardless of whether people like it - seems to be making them a ton of money right now (and subsequently - people seem to be buying into that focus).


Stickers?
By cscpianoman on 4/15/2008 2:33:56 PM , Rating: 2
I think pystar should slap an Apple sticker on the case and call it "apple-labeled." Problem solved.




RE: Stickers?
By cscpianoman on 4/15/2008 2:45:08 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, and if Apple complains about it not be labeled by "Apple." Just find someone with the first or last name "Apple" and have him do it. Or hire people to work part-time that also work at Apple.

Maybe we can raise an entire generation of kids named "Apple" and have them labeling Apple clones. We would then have to come up with other names to distinguish the clones. Maybe iOrange, iPear or some other generic name with an "i" in front. Though we would have to careful, apparently an "i" before anything will put you in the targets of Apple's lawyers. I'm surprised Toyota's "iForce" trucks haven't been nailed to the wall yet.


RE: Stickers?
By PB PM on 4/15/2008 2:47:58 PM , Rating: 3
Not a good idea, then Apple could sue them for using the Apple label.


RE: Stickers?
By cscpianoman on 4/15/2008 3:33:44 PM , Rating: 2
Please tell me you did not take me seriously.


Apple not popular?
By NerdHerder08 on 4/15/2008 11:16:15 AM , Rating: 2
I've been building, working on and with computers for over 20 years and I've always wanted to have a Mac to tinker with. I recently purchased a Macbook Pro and I have to say without a doubt that it's the best laptop I've ever had. The simplicity and stability of OSX is quite refreshing. I have VMware Fusion so that I can still do my windows programming and run my windows only sys admin / remote access utils but I just suspend / resume it as necessary. I find myself using OSX for the majority of my daily usage.

I'm not saying it's perfect (docking and a SD card reader would be nice) and I know that it does carry a premium price but without a doubt in my opinion the Mac is just a better platform.




RE: Apple not popular?
By afkrotch on 4/15/2008 12:44:52 PM , Rating: 4
Hope you have a service center near you when the hardware breaks. As they are far and few. I like to have my choices. Apple's motto shouldn't be "Think Different." It should be "We think for you. Now go buy an iPod...moron."


RE: Apple not popular?
By kelmon on 4/16/2008 4:54:48 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, a docking station would be nice and the 3rd party attempts at a solution are pretty awful looking. However, the SD card reader problem can be solved pretty easily with an ExpressCard. I bought the 5in1 Card Reader from Griffin last year and it's been great. However, I think you can get other ones now that support SDHC as well as regular SD cards.

It's safe to say that you can ignore afkrotch, who is clearly an idiot.


Sue MS!
By PWNettle on 4/15/2008 4:53:54 PM , Rating: 2
So MS gets sued by everyone and the EU has a vendetta against them...but Apple can constantly get away with stuff like this?




RE: Sue MS!
By rcc on 4/15/2008 5:44:44 PM , Rating: 2
It's endemic in the world's society today. Pull down the big guy. He/she/it must be eviiiiiiil.


RE: Sue MS!
By PrasVT on 4/15/2008 5:45:38 PM , Rating: 2
Well..just visit the insanely mac forums and as mentioned earlier, you can use distros like Kalyway or iATKOS to install OS X on some of the mainstream chipsets. My P35/C2D 3.2Ghz/8800GTS/4GB system runs it beautifully and it's dual booted with Vista. So you don't even need to worry about a $399 mac. As long as you check hardware support (mostly chipsets, networking), you pick up a copy of the OS and patch it (or the other way) and give it a shot...it's a decent OS for day to day Office'ish tasks(coming from a byopc / windows guy) ...but paying a premium for low end hardware in a pretty box is idiotic.


RE: Sue MS!
By kelmon on 4/16/2008 5:12:16 AM , Rating: 2
I don't understand your point. Apple makes their own products - are you suggesting that they should allow other companies to make them without paying royalties? Microsoft gets sued for many reasons but mostly because they have a stranglehold on the desktop PC market and abuse their position. Apple also gets taken to court by the EU for their iPod/iTunes monopoly so they are hardly exempt from the attention of the EU (I hate to burst your bubble on this one). But Apple is hardly a monopoly when it comes to personal computers and that's why they can do what they want in the same was as other manufacturers like HP and Dell can.


Why bother
By GUBBY on 4/15/2008 12:34:39 PM , Rating: 2
I understand Macs run pc programs now. Did MS try to stop them? Steve jobs is a ahole, a smart ahole but an ahole nonetheless. Apple can wrangle all they want. I will never buy a Mac. Take that, Stevie.




RE: Why bother
By zsdersw on 4/15/2008 1:13:30 PM , Rating: 2
Indeed. They can take their AT&T-only iPhone, their Apple hardware-only OS, and other miscellaneous bullsh!t and shove it all up their a$$.


RE: Why bother
By Scott66 on 4/15/2008 9:45:05 PM , Rating: 1
Why would MS want to stop them. They sold an extra copy of software and that is what Microsoft does. They don't give a flying fig if it doesn't work 100% on all hardware because they got what they wanted. All the sheep bought the office and the operating system. If there is a problem they tell the customer it is a hardware issue so please pester the maker of the computer and let us count our money.

If something happens to a Mac, then it is Apple's fault. Luckily they know all the hardware issues because they decided on the hardware specs. I like this concept from a customer's perspective. It also makes my job as a Apple Certified Technician much easier.

Now when I get a customer with a Windows/PC problem, the potential reasons are much greater and may never be solvable.


RE: Why bother
By kelmon on 4/16/2008 4:59:04 AM , Rating: 2
Yet another stunning example of someone who thinks that Apple is Microsoft. Look, Apple makes hardware and Microsoft makes software. Can't you tell the difference?


$399 + $155 = $554
By MrTeal on 4/15/2008 11:50:58 AM , Rating: 2
That comparison isn't quite fair, as the $399 clone doesn't come with an OS, while the Mac Mini does. Add in the $155 price of OS X that psystar charges, and the margin shrinks.

$400 is still a hell of a margin though. Especially considering that once volume gets to a certain point, the smaller and less expandable motherboards in the mini would be a lot cheaper to produce than a standard ATX MB. Extra board space and unused connectors are expensive.




RE: $399 + $155 = $554
By V3ctorPT on 4/15/2008 3:45:26 PM , Rating: 2
I like macs... they are beautifull... they can make u win big points with girls (geek talking)... but i would never buy a mac because of its price... it's way too much for a low-midrange hardware... I mean... u pay 500$ plus just for OS X... That is just waaaaaaaaay to much for a OS and a case with an apple on it...


RE: $399 + $155 = $554
By mattclary on 4/16/2008 9:11:03 AM , Rating: 2
I'd never buy a Mac because I would then be a Mac user. I hate the taste of cool-aid.


Question for Steve Jobs
By ice456789 on 4/15/2008 1:11:38 PM , Rating: 2
If he really thinks that OSX is superior to Windows, why not let it compete on the same hardware? If he actually thought Leopard was so much better, he could kill Microsoft's market share in the PC market by licensing it the way Windows does. Imagine, you go to a store to buy a computer and for the same price you can either get Windows or Leopard... then we would truly see which OS is better.

Of course as we can see either Jobs is making too much money selling cheap hardware with a huge markup, or he doesn't think Leopard would survive out 'in the wild' against Windows.




RE: Question for Steve Jobs
By AlphaVirus on 4/15/2008 3:40:26 PM , Rating: 2
I think thats one of the main reasons he fights to not allow clones. If clones emerge, he will have to support the multitude of hardwares. Once people buy these clones and start having problems later on, they can not call Apple Support because "Apple does not care about joo non-Mac users!"


RE: Question for Steve Jobs
By 777 on 4/16/2008 3:24:59 AM , Rating: 2
I can't necessarily say OSX is superior now to say Vista, but this wasn't always so. I have used Mac's and pc's since their inception and I just happen to prefer Mac's, but back in the day of Windblows 3.0, Microsoft has always been pretty much trying to play catch up to Mac's OS until the last few years. Even on the hardware side you can now buy pc hardware that runs effienciently, but back in 2000 when I bought my G4 500mhz, the cheap pc's couldn't handle what I was doing on my Mac, I know because I owned both and still do. My 8yr old G4 out performs my 2yr old POS Dell 1.8ghz laptop.

Apple is what it is and can do whatever the hell they want to as a company (right or wrong). Why so many pc fanboys give a crap what Apple does or doesn't do seems like they have issues.


Build your own Mac
By vailr on 4/15/2008 11:29:54 AM , Rating: 2
It's not really very difficult to build your own Mac. Just follow the "Hardware Compatibility List" for Leopard 10.5.2:
http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/HCL_10...

The "Psystar" system installed software is likely based on the Kalyway modified Leopard install DVD.




RE: Build your own Mac
By TOAOCyrus on 4/15/2008 6:32:33 PM , Rating: 2
Actually they claim their computer can run an unmodified version of OSX. They must be using an EFI based motherboard with their own emulated interface.


Really?
By FITCamaro on 4/15/2008 12:53:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Apple's lawyers, armed with this clear violation of the EULA managed to come to a friendly agreement


I didn't realize a gun to the side of the head was a friendly agreement.




RE: Really?
By JustTom on 4/15/2008 2:01:48 PM , Rating: 2
I have found no evidence that there ever was such an agreement; no other news stories mention one. Psystar's official explanation on their site being down is excessive network traffic. Which is certainly possible since this story is all over the web. I think Jason fabricated this 'friendly agreement' to explain Psystar's website being down. In fact Psystar has been quoted repeatedly that they are going to fight the legality of Apple's EULA, and they continue to sell Mac compatibles with OSX pre-installed.


Why look a gift horse in the mouth?
By Christopher Barr on 4/15/2008 1:03:51 PM , Rating: 2
What is amusing about this string is that for mac users, their complaints about Apple pricing overlooks the fact that our decreased numbers and our "elitist" product naturally insulates us from viruses. I would say to any MAC user...if you have ever owned a pc, having had that experience...why in the world would you want that to change? The premium we pay is worth every cent. Not only for a superior platform but more importantly, for relatively worry free internet use......As for the pc who dis the Apple business philosophy....keep up the good work and enjoy your worry free, easy to operate, simple to understand and crash free OS....with our blessings!!!




By jimbojimbo on 4/15/2008 2:25:17 PM , Rating: 2
Since you're a mac fan I understand you're subconsciously denying that the Mac was the first to get hacked during a contest. You're right though, keep feeling safe. There are those out there that want to keep that feeling going.

http://www.dailytech.com/MacBook+Hacked+at+Securit...


EFI is not a Mac thing, It's an Intel thing
By Magnus Dredd on 4/15/2008 3:09:22 PM , Rating: 2
Intel based Macs do happen to use EFI, but it does not belong to Apple, EFI belongs to Intel...

http://www.intel.com/technology/efi/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Firmware_I...

All systems that use Itanium processors are EFI based. The Microsoft OSes that support Itanium all support EFI in the Itanium version.

Microsoft stated that Vista would support EFI when it shipped, but it didn't. Now they are stating that they will add EFI support with Vista SP1.

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/platform/firm...

One of the oldest, crustiest, and nastiest parts of most generic PCs is the BIOS. Nearly all current PCs ship with a PC XT BIOS (derived from the BIOS in the IBM PC XT introduced in 1983!!!), or an EFI BIOS running a BIOS emulator module. Gateway is one of the OEMs shipping machines that have an EFI BIOS that runs a BIOS emulator.

Intel stepped up to the plate and has produced a very nice XT BIOS replacement for us that we don't get to use to it's full ability because of other companies dragging their asses. Intel's Active Management Technology is just a single thing that EFI allows them to provide.
http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20...

Intel has had EFI based systems since 2000. They introduced AMT in 2005.




By emboss on 4/15/2008 6:04:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Intel stepped up to the plate and has produced a very nice XT BIOS replacement


EFI is hardly a "very nice" BIOS replacement. Sure, it removes a lot of old cruft that has built up over the years, but it adds in masses of new complexity and moronic design decisions. Much like ACPI really.

Not to mention the emphasis it has on proprietarization over open standards and the DRM-related issues of it.

Yes, the BIOS isn't great - but EFI is far from being a "very nice" replacement.


Somebody was listening! Apple didn't.
By ysunwoo on 4/16/2008 12:53:49 AM , Rating: 2
Psystar's computer product is the reaction of a market segment that has been ignored & insulted (Mac Mini) by Apple. Apple leave it alone or we (consumers) yell monopoly. Note PCs are cheap and Macs aren't that user friendly. I know, I own one! G4 (upgraded to 1.2GHz/1.5GB mem/80GB HD/Tiger) wasn't upgrade and repair friendly either. Maybe Psystar will answer this question as well.




By kelmon on 4/16/2008 5:20:13 AM , Rating: 2
I agree with this. Assuming that Psystar is able to continue to sell these systems and manages to market them such that people know that they exist outside of web site such as this, it will be interesting to see if what they are selling is really what people wanted. As far as Apple's product line goes, there appears to be a number of gaps. I can't say that I'm interested in a desktop of any variety but I have received questions from friends/family about whether Apple makes a 17" laptop like the MacBook, i.e. a consumer laptop that just has a big screen. They don't so anyone looking for a "standard" laptop with a 17" screen has to look at a Window system unless they are prepared to pay for a professional laptop, which is too expensive. I use a 17" MacBook Pro as my only computer and it's an awesome laptop but it's definitely overkill for the likes of my dad who simply wants access to the web, document writing and watching movies when he's away.

So, from this we might find out if there really is much of a market for a mid-range desktop Mac without a screen.


Psystar is finished !
By crystal clear on 4/16/2008 9:21:07 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Psystar came with the EFI V8 emulator which tricks OS X install disks into thinking the computer was an official Mac.


Now read this-

April 15th 2008 Posted to Apple, pc efi
That guys said they sell computers with efi v8 emulator..

They forgot to mention author of emulator, so it’s looks like they made efi v8.

But u know who did it (http://netkas.org/?p=41)

So, this is violation of my authorship rights on pc efi v8

pc_efi v8 now had been reloaded, and includes very basic license

which denies any commercial using. also updated with actual smbios.

can be found in topic of channel #leopard in irc.osx86.hu

text of license

License

EFI V1 - V8

Redistribution and use in binary form for direct or indirect commercial purposes, with or without modification, is stricktly forbidden.

Redistributions in binary form for non-commercial purposes must reproduce the above license notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.

Neither the names of EFI V1-V8 copyright owner nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived direct or indirect from this software



http://netkas.org/?p=62

You can say bye bye to the Mac clones - NO MORE !

If you already paid for one-I hope you get the PC or your money back.

Good luck.




RE: Psystar is finished !
By crystal clear on 4/16/2008 9:34:32 AM , Rating: 2
That's in addition to the violation of Apple's Mac OS X end-user licence, which states the operating system is only licensed for use on Apple-branded hardware. Psystar has reportedly said it believes Apple's licensing terms to be unlawful because they're anti-competitive, but it can't say the same about the terms of the EFI V8 licence, which expressly forbids the use of the emulator for commercial purposes.

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/04/16/hacker_sla...


Ahh the Apple EULA
By eyebeeemmpawn on 4/15/2008 12:00:04 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
This License allows you to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time.


isn't this wording also found in the EULA for the iTunes-cloaked Safari install for Windows?




Fact Checking
By JustTom on 4/15/2008 12:31:53 PM , Rating: 1
There is one problem with this article: Psystar still sells the mac compatible computer and it still offers it pre-installed with OSX. While Apple certainly has a problem with this computer Psystar has not taken down its website and it still offers this computer for sale.

Right from Psystar's home page :
quote:
Why spend $1999 to get the least expensive Apple computer with a decent video card when you can pay less than a fourth of that for an equivalent sleek and small form-factor desktop with the same hardware. Sometimes reinventing the wheel is a good thing. The Open Computer can work for new Mac users and Mac geniuses, alike.


Even the article Jason quotes says nothing about Psystar taking down its site; it mentions Apple's belief that installing OSX violates the EULA and that is it. While I am sure Apple will attempt to shut down Psystar, it apparently has not yet. And Jason certainly doesn't provide ANY information suggesting otherwise.




RE: Fact Checking
By JustTom on 4/15/2008 1:43:40 PM , Rating: 1
So Jason, which is it: did Psystar have a friendly agreement to take down its site(your originial viewpoint) or was it just a coincidence(your latest viewpoint)?


Set their own precident
By djc208 on 4/15/2008 2:59:15 PM , Rating: 2
I wonder if the fact that Apple violated their own EULA with the whole Safari for Windows thing will hurt them here, expecially since it's the same verbage that's already caused the trouble.

I'd LMAO if it got dismissed over that.

Apple: "They violated our EULA by installing the software."

Judge: "So did I when I installed your web browser last night and you didn't sue me. Dismissed. Next case."




For $400....
By Reclaimer77 on 4/15/2008 5:49:07 PM , Rating: 2
I can walk into Wal-Mart or another big box store and buy a comparable PC. The biggest problem with Mac's isn't their price, its that nobody really needs to use one. Except those who need them to run software because Apple bought the software company and canceled the Windows version.

I think you have to be nuts to try and start a business selling Mac clones. I commend them, of course, but the product just isn't that compelling for a huge majority of the end user. Just like when Lindows equipped PC's were sold in stores for $300+ and failed because nobody bought them. WOW an underpowered PC loaded with an OS that barely anyone wants to or knows how to run ! Sign me up right !?




By SiliconAddict on 4/15/2008 11:22:54 PM , Rating: 2
How about they put out a comparable product at a respectable price....Then again that would be too hard...lets just sick lawyers on em.




jason mick filter?
By johnsonx on 4/16/2008 2:41:19 AM , Rating: 2
Is there any way I can set a filter so I just don't see any more article by Jason Mick?

I know, I can just not read them, but it's kind of like a traffic accident - once you see it, it's hard not to look!




Are You Guys Making This Up?
By kelmon on 4/16/2008 4:07:25 AM , Rating: 2
I hate to say this but the only thing known at the moment is that Psystar is making OS X compatible computers, offering to install it, and that they've renamed the computer from "Open Mac" to "Open Computer". As much as I am sure suggesting that Apple and Steve Jobs have unleashed the lawyers on this company makes for a good article, do you actually have any evidence of this? Engadget posted an article following conversation with Psystar's CEO and he certainly doesn't make any mention that the lawyers have arrived. That the site went down and then came back up with a different model name is no doubt simply a result of ensuring that they didn't infringe on a trademark, which clearly would be easier to defend in court than an EULA.

My feelings on the subject are mixed (Apple could use some competition and there are product gaps, but since this is the primary business an adverse affect could ruin the platform). However, this "article" smacks of sensationalist journalism. For all you know Apple doesn't care about this company and that "Apple's lawyers, armed with this clear violation of the EULA promised to challenge Psystar" is based on supposition.

Feel free to provide evidence that backs up the thrust of your article.




Exactly why Mac...
By masa77 on 4/17/2008 11:01:08 AM , Rating: 2
...is absolutely no better than PC, whatsoever. Jobs is just like Gates. He wants to run it like a monopoly where Mac retains all control and you end up with whatever they give you. Sounds like another Microsoft, which is precisely what we don't need. Competition is the key to better products and innovation. Monopolies are bad for everyone.




Apple...Marketing Genius
By depravedone on 4/18/2008 5:17:38 PM , Rating: 2
Apple is to computing what Bose is to speakers.




UMMMMM.....
By robbienismo on 4/18/2008 9:54:57 PM , Rating: 2
I work at a nameless government mail company ;) that has the nations 3rd largest data center under my feet, and I don't see a single MAC or know any people that I work with that own one. I personally have a mac mini and it crashes more than XP and Vista have ever done for me... Not impressed and thank god I didn't pay alot for that stupid thing.




How about keeping up DT?
By wordsworm on 4/19/2008 10:22:36 PM , Rating: 2
Geeze... you guys have been doing a terrible job keeping up with the Psystar drama.




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