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  (Source: Warner Bros. Pictures)

Jony Ive, SVP of Industrial Design at Apple Inc.
Designing great products is the main goal

Jonathan Ive, senior vice president of industrial design at Apple, recently said that money isn't Apple's main goal while giving a speech at the British Embassy's Creative Summit. 
 
"We are really pleased with our revenues, but our goal isn't to make money," said Ive. "It sounds a little flippant, but it's the truth. Our goal and what makes us excited is to make great products. If we are successful, people will like them and if we are operationally competent, we will make money." 
 
Ive brought up Apple's rough time through the 1990s when it nearly went bankrupt, saying that former CEO Steve Jobs rescued the company by putting effort into the design for better products -- which eventually led to the company's huge pile of cash.
 
"I refute that design is important," said Ive. "Design is a prerequisite. Good design -- innovation -- is really hard. We say no to a lot of things that we want to do and are intrigued by so that we only work on a manageable amount of products and can invest an incredible amount of care on each of them." 
 
Apple has reported record financial earnings quarter after quarter since the release of popular gadgets like the iPhone and iPad. In the most recent quarter, Apple posted $35 billion in sales and a net profit of $8.8 billion ($9.32 per share). These figures missed Wall Street's expectations of $37 billion in sales and a net profit of $10.36 per share, but the numbers are still good. The company blamed the earnings miss on slow economies and anticipation for the next-generation iPhone. 
 
Ive's comments mirror current Apple CEO Tim Cook's words back in February of this year, where he said that the company had "more money than it needed."

Source: Wired



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Innovation
By Misty Dingos on 7/31/2012 1:37:53 PM , Rating: 5
OK I will call BS on Apple as the innovator. Incrementalism is what they are good at. If they were innovators they would be leading the cell phone technology race. Which they did lead when they brought out the first Iphone but not anymore. And Siri is nothing more than a gimmick.

The Ipad was innovative at its launch and is rapidly being superseded in technology by other devices. Changing the size of the device is not innovation.

Sitting on innovations year after year so you can bleed the customer of money is not innovation it is a business model.

Apple’s business model is working for them and their shareholders, which is good for them but it will not hold off the wolves of completion forever. And neither will Apple’s lawyers.




RE: Innovation
By smackababy on 7/31/2012 1:44:27 PM , Rating: 2
Look at smart phones before the iPhone and look at them after. Innovator? Maybe they weren't the first all touch phone, but they changed the game after they released it.


RE: Innovation
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/31/2012 1:54:46 PM , Rating: 4
Umm, he did say that. He added that they are no longer innovating.


RE: Innovation
By FormulaRedline on 7/31/12, Rating: -1
RE: Innovation
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/31/2012 2:38:31 PM , Rating: 2
He was talking about the iPhone specifically in that first paragraph (which is what I was responding to). iOS design wise is stale compared to Windows Phone and Android. iOS 6 does nothing to change this.

Also, the iPhone is a 1+ year behind on NFC, LTE, larger screens, faster processors, more RAM, etc.

Sure, Apple is great at packaging all of that together in a nicely designed product, but I'd hardly say that Apple is taking any major design risks (hardware or software) today like it did when the iPhone was first released in 2007.

This coming from someone who owns both an iPhone 4S and a 3rd gen iPad.


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/12, Rating: -1
RE: Innovation
By Cheesew1z69 on 7/31/2012 2:57:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm going to have to disagree.
Of course... nothing unusual here.


RE: Innovation
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/31/2012 3:06:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I will agree with your sentiment that Apple isn't taking any major design risks, excepting Siri. Siri is a huge risk, especially if it fails to pan out.
But Siri isn't even Apple's technology. They just bought most of it wholesale from Nuance.

Siri's capabilities are basically like Ford Sync's if it had a connection to the cloud to parse more advanced queries. Sync came out in 2007, so this isn't exactly "new technology".

Siri started as an app which was then purchased and made proprietary for Apple. Not new or risky at all.

Now if Apple was being ambitious it would put its voice parsing on the phone to try to handle local requests without the processing power of the cloud. But, oh wait, it isn't doing that Google is with Jelly Bean.

quote:
iOS still has an update advantage wrt to how long it is updated and how quickly it gets updated to the newest versions, even if a 30 month old phone might not actually benefit from the update. Android struggles to stay updated for 12 months, and the longest lived Android device is 18 months for the Nexus lineup of phones.
True, update speed and battery efficiency (note: NOT battery life, which Androids are now meeting or beating the iPhone at) are advantages for Apple.

But are those really selling points, considering how far behind Apple's UI is compared to Android/Windows Phone?

Even my friends with iPhones are jealous of my Windows Phone and say they might switch when their contract is up.


RE: Innovation
By corduroygt on 7/31/12, Rating: -1
RE: Innovation
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/31/2012 3:40:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You were doing fine until that last bit, which clearly shows you're trolling.
Says the guy who demonstrates a clear lack of knowledge about Windows Phone, but is perfectly willing to rip on it.
quote:
What exactly are they jealous of? Weak hardware and mediocre camera quality? Crappy incompatible browser?
My browser does just fine. Other than not supporting flash it's at least as good as Safari. A few sites (as with Safari) don't support it, but my initial criticism proved premature. I actually have found a lot of sites I couldn't access in Android due to multiple secured redirects now work perfectly in mobile IE.

As for the camera, I agree in well-lit photos it gets beat by the iPhone's camera. But in low-light conditions, which are a large portion of my photos, I get very good pictures... at least as good as the iPhone I would argue.

My hardware is fine... the phone is fast. The base OS is more efficient than Android/iOS, so it doesn't need a quad-core to feel silky smooth.

quote:
Lack of an upgrade path to WP8?
It's called a new phone. I'm on a one year upgrade cycle. I'm upgrading next April. Windows Phone 7.8 will be fine in the meantime.

quote:
Lack of apps? Or the fact that you will get new apps as often as WebOS does once WP8 is out?
Rubbish. I have more apps than I have time to use.

Again I'm not saying Windows Phone is better than Android. The Galaxy S III is a sweet phone. Jelly Bean looks awesome.

I just think that at the end of the day, the UI is the single most important component of the phone. It's a component that both Google and Microsoft are doing well and which Apple is doing horribly.

That's why some iPhone users get a little jealous when they see my eye-catching Lumia 900. Its UI really is worlds beyond Apple's.


RE: Innovation
By corduroygt on 7/31/12, Rating: -1
RE: Innovation
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/31/2012 4:48:50 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Your browser is automatically crappy because it outputs at a pathetic 800x480 resolution. Can it render this site properly yet like Safari and the Android browser?
Sure it renders it just fine. I only know of one site (sherdog.com) that renders poorly at present.

I surf the internet every day on my phone and have nearly no issues.
quote:
You would then be objectively proven wrong by tests and the iPhone 4S (not 4) camera destroys the Lumia camera in every way conceivable and possible, and I'm sure the Galaxy's does too.
Again, I would trade a slightly worse camera for a much better interface.

The camera gets the job done. I take tons of pictures and am perfectly happy. And all of them are automatically backed up to SkyDrive so I have no trouble accessing them from my PC.

The UI saves me much more time and effort.
quote:
Can you do online banking yet?Why don't you send us a screenshot of all your apps? Oh, forgot you can't do that...

Screenshot:
http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windowsphone75...

Why do I need an app to do online banking?

I can just use my bank's website, which is fully compatible with my Windows Phone (oh I'm sorry, maybe yours isn't with your iPhone?).

You're too fixated on "apps".

I had a bank app with Android and I can count on my fingers the number of times I used it. It was just too devoid of features compared to the online interface, and let me say this was a bank app that was supposedly "award winning"


RE: Innovation
By corduroygt on 7/31/12, Rating: -1
RE: Innovation
By noirsoft on 8/3/2012 6:25:21 AM , Rating: 2
I've been doing online banking (with BofA) almost since WP7 came out, and it seems like every week a new bank has signed on. The only feature I don't have is the "picture deposit" and it has been announced as coming soon.


RE: Innovation
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/2012 5:03:49 PM , Rating: 2
Not getting a different OS version is NOT the same as "dropping support". Stop the rhetoric. You still have support from Google or the vendor if you need it for your phone. Stop making it seem like you're thrown to the wolves or something, it's silly.


RE: Innovation
By michael67 on 8/1/12, Rating: 0
RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/12, Rating: -1
RE: Innovation
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/31/2012 4:42:12 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I know people don't like considering Apple somehow being ahead of the curve, but they were. At the release of the 4S Apple had one of the longest lived, highest performance, featureful phones.
And yet most of that "performance" was simply a testament to how good the original device released in 2007 was.

Early in my tenure at DT I wrote on that accomplishment in pieces such as:
http://www.dailytech.com/Meet+the+TIME+Invention+o...

...I was summarily accused of Apple favoritism.

Yet, in reality I was and continue to try to be an unbiased observer. And what I see is that yes Apple, under Steve Jobs was ahead of the curve when it came to marketing. The iPhone and iPad were brilliant marketing accomplishments.

And yet since the iPad in 2010 Apple has completely stalled in terms of marketing truly reimagined product or anything new. This is directly correlated to Steve Jobs passing away.

The current profits and sales are just a testament to legacy of Jobs as a brilliant marketer. As Apple struggles to keep pace with Android and others in years to come that legacy will eventually fade, and Apple will be in the same spot it was in in the 1990s, before Microsoft bailed it out.


RE: Innovation
By Shadowself on 7/31/12, Rating: -1
RE: Innovation
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/2012 7:20:02 PM , Rating: 2
I don't see any bias there at all. Truth hurts?


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/12, Rating: -1
RE: Innovation
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/2012 7:49:31 PM , Rating: 2
Yes they make profits due to shameless exploitation of Third World labor. Yet they lose more and more market-share to Android every year. If people chose your competitors product at ever increasing rates over yours, at some point you won't be making those monster profits. It wont matter if Samsung or HTC makes only 5 cents per phone, in the end you will lose anyway.

Saying Apple is struggling isn't bias, it's sane observation. They think they can sue the world and hold onto their edge, but it continues to slip. It's pretty obvious what context he was using when he said "struggles", even Apple's lawyer expressed frustration at Samsung's high rate of innovation and product release cycle. But like a typical Tony wannabee, you fall back on the old standby of Apple's profits to win an argument. It doesn't!

You accusing others of bias has to be the best funny I've had all day man. Look in the mirror.


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/12, Rating: 0
RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 9:57:28 PM , Rating: 2
Seriously, the most profitable phone company in the world is struggling?

Look, HTC, RIM, Nokia, LG, and Sony are struggling. Apple may be complacent, but it's ludicrous and absurd to say it is struggling. It makes no sense to say it is until it takes 3 years to update their flagship, or it's profits fall by 90%, or it cannot make a profit for two quarters.


RE: Innovation
By corduroygt on 8/1/2012 9:48:14 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yes they make profits due to shameless exploitation of Third World labor.

You make it sound like Samsung, HTC, etc. don't do the same thing...In fact I bet those third world workers are paid better when they're making iPhones vs. other brands.

That's not to say Android isn't good, it is, but at least find something else to criticize Apple with, not something that EVERYONE that makes consumer electronic devices does.


RE: Innovation
By Cheesew1z69 on 8/1/2012 9:54:46 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Now, I’m not entirely sure how Samsung does this, but South Korea actually has a rather high income per capita — $24,000 — and the average monthly salary for a factory worker is $2000 per month. The average monthly wage for a Chinese Foxconn worker is only $400 . As far as I can tell, this simply means that Apple pays significantly less to produce its iPhones. A report from February confirms this disparity: If you average it all out, Chinese workers get $8 per iPad, while Korean workers get $34 per iPad.


RE: Innovation
By WalksTheWalk on 8/1/2012 12:31:21 PM , Rating: 2
Apple's focus on Siri is a strategic bet to dis-intermediate search on the iPhone and iPad. Siri allows Apple can abstract the back end search provider and start to move away from Google like they are doing with maps.


RE: Innovation
By testerguy on 8/1/2012 2:52:30 AM , Rating: 2
Because you're biased yourself.

As I keep educating you.

I am shocked that even 1 person was so dumb to try and claim Jason has no bias when it's clear to any observer with any semblance of intelligence.


RE: Innovation
By testerguy on 8/1/2012 2:53:47 AM , Rating: 2
To be clear, that comment was directed at Reclaimer77


RE: Innovation
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/2012 3:56:02 PM , Rating: 2
Michael the 4S barely, and I emphasize barely, beat out the Galaxy SII. How is it only 4 months behind? Cherry picking benchmarks much? Also benchmarks are one thing, but what about features? Apple hasn't added a meaningful feature of the iPhone platform since 2008! And finally in 2012 we'll see an iPhone with a, barely, larger screen.

quote:
Siri is a huge risk


How do you figure that? You should know by now that when Apple tells it's legion of dumb dumbs they have the next big thing, they BELIEVE it's the next big thing no matter what. Siri was never a risk. Marketing to intelligent people would be a risk!

quote:
iOS still has an update advantage wrt to how long it is updated and how quickly it gets updated to the newest versions


Of course they have the advantage! They come out with ONE device every 15 months. They will always have the advantage because of this.

Micheal you honestly have lost all credibility with your blind allegiance to Apple. You've joined Tony, Pirks and Takin on DT's Hall of Shame.


RE: Innovation
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/31/2012 4:36:21 PM , Rating: 2
Micheal = Testerguy = Tony

At least Pirks has shown a surprising amount of independence of late, criticizing Apple at times.

I'm not sure whether they're all secretly a proxy-controlled single user or if it simply is a testament to how much Apple brainwashes people.
quote:
Michael the 4S barely, and I emphasize barely, beat out the Galaxy SII. How is it only 4 months behind? Cherry picking benchmarks much? Also benchmarks are one thing, but what about features? Apple hasn't added a meaningful feature of the iPhone platform since 2008! And finally in 2012 we'll see an iPhone with a, barely, larger screen.
Apple's most loyal users will eat up whatever it offers them, be it crap (literally) or cutting-edge.
quote:
How do you figure that? You should know by now that when Apple tells it's legion of dumb dumbs they have the next big thing, they BELIEVE it's the next big thing no matter what. Siri was never a risk. Marketing to intelligent people would be a risk!
Exactly, Ford Sync was doing a lot of the same things as Siri in 2007. THAT was a risk. Siri is just taking a decent technology and bundling it in proprietary form. Little to no risk. Google doing offline voice dictation in Jelly Bean is far more ambitious/risky.

But don't mind me ... let's let Michael grasp at straws. Apparently now all he can use to defend his iPhone's supposed lead is:

+ OS upgrade rollout time
(Never mind you can root your phone and upgrade!)
+ Siri
(Never mind Jelly Bean has better voice assistant)
+ Battery Efficiency
(Never mind it's not losing in battery life...)

When that's your beloved device's selling points, you're clearly grasping at small scraps of hope. But to a loyal Apple user even the smallest scraps are "sex in your hand" as one person described the iPhone as yesterday.


RE: Innovation
By Cheesew1z69 on 7/31/2012 4:41:47 PM , Rating: 2
The posts he made on another article trying to argue that Samsung was copying the Apple icons is classic. Even though, they look nothing alike! He tried to claim a COLOR was a factor in that they copied!

/me dies laughing...


RE: Innovation
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/2012 4:44:15 PM , Rating: 2
You left out:

+ Apple's profits.

Because nothing wins an argument about technology like bringing up the stock prices of some large corporation.

I guess next time I'm fighting in the trenches against the Libs about how bad oil is, I'll just employ Appletard logic and bring up Exxon's profits and stock price! That will get me the win for sure, right? lmao.

quote:
When that's your beloved device's selling points, you're clearly grasping at small scraps of hope. But to a loyal Apple user even the smallest scraps are "sex in your hand" as one person described the iPhone as yesterday.


lol agree. It's really funny to see what they do when backed into a corner.


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 7/31/2012 4:53:08 PM , Rating: 2
"Micheal = Testerguy = Tony . At least Pirks has shown a surprising amount of independence of late, criticizing Apple at times."

LOL... I actually think I figured Pirks out after he crapped all over his WM phone he just bought.... He hates everything. He literally hates IOS, Android, WebOS, WM and BB LOL. In the end he wound up with Android (Galaxy note) becasue it has the closest options he needs, but he still hates it LOL.

"When that's your beloved device's selling points, you're clearly grasping at small scraps of hope. "


Yup, that list is getting flimsy. I cant see anyone actually looking at Jelly Bean vs. IOS and thinking IOS is better in any way. It has a few points, but you said it well "scraps". In all the major areas Android has far surpassed the iPhone as a platform, that goes for HW and SW both. MAybe if Apple adds something interesting in IOS7 they can take the tech crown back, but that isnt looking too likely at the pace Android is moving lately. Android is making IOS look like its standing still for the past 2 years. I cant wait to see what they do with it over the next 2.


RE: Innovation
By Pirks on 7/31/2012 5:21:16 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
He hates everything
Ya there's no smartphone that has all I want and the way I want it, deal with it son. I'll keep pwning moronic limitations of WP7, tiny screen of iPhone and laggy UI of crapdroid. You can pretend your crapdroid is holy saint and shit, and I still know better 'cause I tried everything that's out there on the market and picked the best mix of advantages and drawbacks, if I use it doesn't mean I have keep sucking its manufacturer's cock like you or reclaimer do. If I see that something is shit and poorly done - I say so. Why you are shy to say straight that shit is shit I don't understand. You are either fanboy, or paid astroturfer or most likely you never used more than one platform so you think the one you got is the best which is of course not true.

My wife thinks I'm an idiot after she experienced both WP7 and crapdroid, she thinks only an idiot will switch from Titan to Note. Well, there ya go. She experienced more than one platform and she now has the right to judge both. With you lame trolls who know shit it's always same one-platform fanboy circus. And reclaimer is way worse than you, to be honest. That was a compliment :P


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 7/31/12, Rating: 0
RE: Innovation
By Cheesew1z69 on 7/31/2012 6:59:22 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
My wife thinks I'm an idiot
We all agree with her...


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/12, Rating: -1
RE: Innovation
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/31/2012 5:10:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Android is going to win, hands down, going forward because it will fill every available niche, especially the ones Apple refuses to tread. I'm not, and have never, disputed that. Apple is thus far limiting itself to the premium market, and in that market there's only a handful of phones that ever compete, and it's always from the same companies: HTC and Samsung. The One and S3 look like incredible phones, but they are still hamstrung by the same problems that Android has always faced: slow OS updates, battery life, and lower GPU performance, even against the now 9 month old 4S:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5868/htc-one-s-revie...

The Galaxy S3 is the only one that beats the 4S's GPU, and barely, and the S3 has more pixels than the 4S, against a 9 month old A5.

Okay maybe I was a tad bit harsh likening you to testerguy, but to be fair to Tony he also shares links (though most of them seem to be pro-Apple rambling blogs like Roughly Drafted).

Like I said you raise valid points and really hone in on the only points you can really use to defend your position. That said I think you're overestimating the importance of those few strengths.

Apple's biggest issue isn't hardware though. It's interface.

You're right about Android being behind the curve in upgrade times, but you're missing the forest for the trees.

Most Android phones have been bumped to ICS. And ICS alone is world's better than iOS 6.

Heck, even Gingerbread could do a lot of things iOS 6 can't, like show you the weather without opening an app.

Whether or not the majority of Android devices have been bumped to Jelly Bean is immaterial. The more important overarching point is that Apple is several releases behind in basic user interface and functionality.

Hardware is just a p1ssing contest between OEMs. UI is where the real differentiation lies. And it's where Apple is suffering the worst.

That's why it's trying so hard to sue Android to remove as many useful features as possible, despite having blatantly copied notifications and other perks from Android.

I hope that clarifies my perspective.

I'm not saying you're wrong entirely. I'm saying you're not seeing the big picture here.


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/12, Rating: 0
RE: Innovation
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/31/2012 5:31:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So if Apple does refresh the UI to become competitive with JB (offline voice, better voice assistant, etc), it won't be a year coming, it will only take a couple months.
True, but Apple won't refresh its UI until summer 2013 at the earliest.

By then 60 percent of Androids will be on JB, aside from budget models. And another 30 percent will likely be on something more advanced.

Yes, Apple deserves some credit for quick upgrades and for collecting a killer set of technologies together into a single package with the original iPhone. You can't argue that almost anything in the iPhone was truly new or unique, but what was unique was how Apple packaged them all together. It did it again in the tablet space in 2010.

But since each of those events it has essentially stalled from a UI perspective delivering very little progress.

The competitors had a lot of catching up to do in 2007. Now it is Apple that must catch up or risk getting left behind.


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 6:39:42 PM , Rating: 2
Apple has some time:
http://www.engadget.com/2012/07/27/idc-samsung-and...

Apple outsells the next three OEMs (HTC, ZTE, and Nokia) combined. They outsell Motorola, LG, RIM, Sony, and Huwei, none of which even make it into the top 5.

But, yes, Apple does have to step up their game or risk being left behind. My belief is that Apple is betting the farm on Siri as their secret weapon.


RE: Innovation
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/2012 5:33:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I think the real issue is that Apple is wiping the floor with most of the OEMs


Yeah well you sue someone 30 or so times in multiple countries, that's going to happen. Congrats I guess?


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 5:58:08 PM , Rating: 2
You know that Apple didn't sue Palm, Nokia, LG, Sony, or RIM in multiple countries, right?

Apple is definitely suing the "last man standing", insofar as their HTC and Samsung suits, but not for the entire rest of the industry.

Motorola is somewhere in between as I do believe they sued Apple first.


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 7/31/2012 5:12:18 PM , Rating: 2
"That's not fair. Seriously, I back my opinion up with links, data, and some level of reason. It's not blind on my part. I'm not grasping at any straws. Each platform has advantages and it seems blind on your part to not acknowledge it."

I dont think anyone is ignoring Apple's good points, what we are saying is that they are fewer and further between and if you look at the pace things are moving, Android is developing at a much faster pace.

"+ Battery life: This is something Anand has been measuring now since forever and the iPhone has been beating Android now since 2010, and on"

Most new Android high end models are doing better than iPhone. Not only that, but they are doing it with larger screens and higher res. You are way off here.

"The One and S3 look like incredible phones, but they are still hamstrung by the same problems that Android has always faced: slow OS updates, battery life, and lower GPU performance, even against the now 9 month old 4S:"

Not at all... Slow OS updates? Jelly Bean has been announced for both (and a bunch of older models as well). But it will always favor Apple. They have one model every year, and an OS upgrade isnt much of an upgrade in the IOS world. Come on, Look and Android 2.3 to 4.1 It is a HUGE improvement. It went from WAY inferior to IOS to WAY superior. Now look at IOS 3 to 6. Not much movement. Surely you can agree with this.

"battery life, and lower GPU "

I think we have already disproven the battery life myth, but Apple did put a monster GPU int he 4s. It is still one of the fastest out. It doesnt beat the SGS3 internatinal version though. ANd there will be an upgraded Exynos and s4 krait with higher GPU's out very soon that Androids will be using.

Like I said Apple has its good points, but looking at the pace the last 2 years Apple has slowed where Google has sped up in a major way.


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 6:35:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Most new Android high end models are doing better than iPhone. Not only that, but they are doing it with larger screens and higher res. You are way off here.

Give me credit, and be honest here.

Most new Android high end models are only 4 or 5 months old. The older models (the Galaxy S2 being the premier example) wasn't doing better than the iPhone, only being competitive with it. It won some things and it lost in others. It took a generation (2 OS updates from Gingerbread to ICS to JB), a die shrink (40nm to 32nm or 22nm), and one screen advancement (Super AMOLED+ to HD Super AMOLED) to beat the iPhone in all areas.

Not that the GS2 was a bad phone, either.

As per slow OS updates: The S2 received the ICS update 5 months after release, and is possibly not even on the slate for JB despite being only 13m old when JB was released. The S3 is expected to receive the JB update also 5 months after release.

Again, you are right that Apple has advantages here, but that's the point. It's an Apple advantage.

I'm not sure you've disproven the battery life myth at all. The majority of Android phones (as per Anandtech's testing) have significantly worse battery life than an iPhone 4S), and the S2 has worse battery life in web browsing while beating it in call/hotspot. I'm not disagreeing that Apple has slowed down nor that Google has accelerated, but Google's acceleration doesn't help when only one OEM (Samsung) is able to keep up.

Right now it's a two horse race, with Apple outselling Nokia, HTC, and ZTE combined:
http://www.engadget.com/2012/07/27/idc-samsung-and...


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 7/31/2012 6:40:14 PM , Rating: 2
"Give me credit, and be honest here. Most new Android high end models are only 4 or 5 months old. The older models (the Galaxy S2 being the premier example) wasn't doing better than the iPhone"

Yes, of course I am talking about new Android phones and not old. The new ones smoke the iPhone.

"'m not sure you've disproven the battery life myth at all. The majority of Android phones (as per Anandtech's testing)"

Your link was old.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6022/samsung-galaxy-...

And it has to be noted that these Androids havea better battery life with a larger screen and higher res.


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 6:47:49 PM , Rating: 2
That's why I keep bringing up the fact that the iPhone is only 4 months out of date.

The One was released in April, four months ago. The S3 in May, two months ago.

The new ones definitely smoke the iPhone; I've never contested that, and your link doesn't change my assertion at all. It's taken several months for the competitors to match or beat the 4S, hands down.


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 7/31/2012 6:57:40 PM , Rating: 2
ok, agreed then.

This has benefits for both camps... Apple puts out a beefy phone hardware wise and keeps if for 12-16 months. Most Android makers put out newer phones 2-3 times a year. It will always sway back and forth, and both have plenty horsepower... this is why the OS is where its at and Apple is stagnating on that front. In 2007 IOS was innovative. Now, its still the same old IOS. Android was way behind even in 2010. Now in 2012, they caught up and then surpassed Apple. The current phones with the current OS are going to be hard for Apple to top, especially with IOS 6 that looks and acts just like IOS3.


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 7:20:45 PM , Rating: 2
Do you mean iOS4, with multitasking, released in 2010?

But the gist of your point is taken.

The big difference is that, by designing HW that will be competitive for a good 20 months (not better, just competitive), they give themselves a lot of breathing room to add necessary features, like multitasking, Notification Center, and iMessage to the 3GS and iPad despite being 2 years old.

Take Widgets as an oft cited example of an area where Apple is behind. Apple could implement something like their Dashboard/Dashcode feature from OS X into iOS to allow Widgets to run in a separate thread/screen to be pulled up from the bottom akin to Notifications being pulled up from the top. Apple might not be able to top JB with the initial iOS6 release, but given it's ability to execute and deploy, 6.1 with Dashboard (released in, say December) might still outnumber actual JB devices by January.

And if they need to add something else in 6.2, say Siri integration into Dashboard, it would be 90% of the current population by, say, next April.


RE: Innovation
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/2012 7:32:36 PM , Rating: 2
Michael you need to give it up.

Also calling iOS a "multitasking" OS is like calling a pig shot from a cannon a "flying pig". Sorta, kinda...not really.


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 7:47:27 PM , Rating: 2
Nope, I've been consistent and accurate this entire thread now. I've gotten several acknowledgements of said from several people, too.
1) One X is only 4 months old, being announced in Feb and released in April.
2) S3 is even newer at 2 months old now
3) Apple's update policy allows it to keep updating it's phones to remain competitive even as Google keeps accelerating it's OS cycles because it takes OEMs several months to release new phones or update existing ones.
4) Apple releases killer HW with the intention of updating them over several years to stay competitive
5) Apple's OS is only out of date by 2 years, compared to JB, but less when you consider JB won't be in wide adoption for another 6 or so months.
6) Apple's performance is outstanding, outselling the next three OEMS combined (HTC, ZTE, Nokia) and only being outsold by Samsung, meaning they have some momentum to keep them going until they can release a thoroughly up to date OS
7) Combining #6 with #4 and #3, if they do get an up to date UI in the next 12 months, it will be available to over 200m devices (assuming the 4S, 5, iPad2, and iPad3 along with the iPhone 6 and iPad 4 all get it).


RE: Innovation
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/2012 7:51:57 PM , Rating: 2
Consistently wrong and brainwashed, yes.


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 10:01:40 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, harsh criticism from someone who thinks Apple is struggling. Seriously, the most profitable phone company in the world is struggling?

Look, HTC, RIM, Nokia, LG, and Sony are struggling. Apple may be complacent, but it's ludicrous and absurd to say it is struggling. It makes no sense to say it is until it takes 3 years to update their flagship, or it's profits fall by 90%, or it cannot make a profit for two quarters.


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 7/31/2012 9:49:37 PM , Rating: 2
I agree with you that Apple could catch up with Android, but will they? It is about a lot more than just widgets. They need to stop looking at the current status and think about the future status. Android iis on a huge roll and shows no sign of slowing. Resting on the past success and relying on customers to remain loyal is what killed RIM.


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 8/1/2012 1:22:52 AM , Rating: 2
I really think they are, and that the future status will be Siri. Think Jarvis in Iron Man or Avengers. They are serious enough that they have committed to adding 8 languages and 14 countries, with dialects of those 8 languages, with iOS 6.

In comparison, Google's Offline Voice, as powerful as it is, is limited to English in the US only right now.

I've said it before; Siri is risky. There's a lot of flakiness and inaccuracy right now and some disappointment, but they haven't given up and the idea of being able to do something like Jarvis is pretty neat, don't you think?

"Siri, get me a room at the Bellagio for CES next year"
"Siri, arrange for a three day weekend at Tahoe"
"Siri, I want to go to the Cherry Blossom Festival in Tokyo"


RE: Innovation
By testerguy on 8/1/2012 3:08:12 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Micheal = Testerguy = Tony


Just when I thought your amateur blog couldn't get any more ridiculous or just plain silly, you come out with drivel like this, to try and put down the few logical people who don't get taken in by your ridiculous biased nonsense day after day.

quote:
At least Pirks has shown a surprising amount of independence of late, criticizing Apple at times.


Yeah, because to demonstrate 'independence' (do you even know what that means), you must necessarily criticise Apple.... because you compliment Apple all the time and slate Android. And that proves your independence....

(To be read: you're stupid)

quote:
I'm not sure whether they're all secretly a proxy-controlled single user or if it simply is a testament to how much Apple brainwashes people.


It's a testament to nothing but your stupidity. Indeed, there would be a far larger testament to your stupidity if the majority of educated and unbiased users hadn't already left to sites like Wired and Gizmodo which both break the news much quicker than you and do it with a degree of professionalism and objectivity. What you're left with is a small following of delusional Android fanboys who will lap up your nonsense, but make no mistake in the technical world nobody respects any of your opinions because you're so ridiculously tainted.

quote:
Apple's most loyal users will eat up whatever it offers them, be it crap (literally) or cutting-edge.


Seriously? This is your 'objectivity'? The iPad 2 is still, over a year on, demolishing the competition in benchmarks, as per the TakinYourPoints link in another article. The iPhone 4S is still, 7 months after it was released, the phone with the fastest GPU in America. It's hilarious that as an american you cite the international performance numbers, by the way. At least you must be aware of your conscious decision to select such unbiased figures.

As for the points you claim Michael is making, your counter points are completely nonsense.

OS upgrade rollout time is a widely documented and commonly known massive flaw with the Android system. More Android users than not don't want to have to manage their operating system manually - they simply want their phone to get upgrades. It doesn't. In fact, even 9 month old phones don't support the latest operating system. Even some new phones don't. To try and defend that as not an issue is just all the proof anyone would ever need that you're full of crap.

You can 'root your phone' and 'upgrade' on iOS too - only you don't have to because your device is already supported.

Siri isn't really one of the big selling points of iOS in my opinion anyway, but to claim 'Jelly bean has a better voice assistant' is simply subjective unsubstantiated nonsense.

Battery efficiency is also not an argument, battery life is though and despite your absolutely incorrect claim, Apple devices consistently lead or close to lead battery life benchmarks (both the iPad and the iPhone).

Lets look at the actual reality, shall we?

1 - Largest app store with highest number of higher quality apps with more profitable app store
2 - Industry leading reliability ratings
3 - Industry leading customer satisfaction ratings
4 - iPad 2 and new iPad dominate the tablet benchmarks, in pretty much every category
5 - The iPhone 4S was only marginally ousted as the performance champion by the 7-month-later international only version of the SG3, with a new iPhone imminent. Do you think that the Samsung SG3 international version will hold the performance lead for 7 months? Doubt it.
6 - Best track record for legacy device support
7 - One of the highest DPI screens
8 - Not a brick. Whether you like it or not, a lot of people don't want to carry around phones which are as huge as the Note or the SG3. The iPhone 4S has less bulk, which is a big selling point for lots of users.
9 - Android failings:
9a - Less security, higher rates of Malware
9b - Higher rates of piracy putting off developers, fewer developers, less profit, fewer apps
9c - Awful legacy device support
9d - Fragmentation
9e - Hardware not tied to software closely.

Whether you like it nor, all of the above points are fact. I am only pointing out Apples side of the argument because your argument is that there isn't one, so to disprove you all I need to do is prove that you're wrong.


RE: Innovation
By Cheesew1z69 on 8/1/2012 8:23:17 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Just when I thought your amateur blog couldn't get any more ridiculous or just plain silly, you come out with drivel like this, to try and put down the few logical people who don't get taken in by your ridiculous biased nonsense day after day.
Being insane isn't logical.

quote:
but make no mistake in the technical world nobody respects any of your opinions because you're so ridiculously tainted.
Nobody respects YOU because you are absolutely fucking batshit nuts.

The rest off your useless drivel, is, well, useless drivel.


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 4:42:51 PM , Rating: 1
That's not what Anandtech records:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4971/apple-iphone-4s...

Not barely, but handily in several areas. Image quality was on par since both had excellent cameras, but in terms of battery life? The 4S beat the S2 on wifi 11h to 7.35h, while the S2 beat the 4S on talk (10.64h v 9.26h) and hotspot (6.03h v 4.83h), while in the GPU test? 73fps vs 42 in the Egypt test and 123 vs 67 in the Pro test. CPU performance was decidedly in the iPhone's favor, albeit Anand only looked at BrowserMark and SunSpider.

To be fair, the iPhone also has 1.6x as many pixels to render, so it was expected that the GPU was going to be 1.8 to 1.7 times faster than that found on the S2, but the point being that the iPhone still has a more powerful GPU.

As per meaningful features:
2009: Much faster CPU/GPU
2010: Retina (which is now widely available everywhere)
2011: Siri (which, as later explain, is a huge risk)

I'm not claiming that Siri is a big thing; Siri is a risk because there's a good chance it will fail (given how dependent it is on the network and given how flakey it is). You talk about Apple barely adding a meaningful feature without considering what that means. Siri is meaningful; it's a new UI like multitouch in 2007. It's also very flakey (and by many observations, still in beta).

I don't see why you group me in with Tony/Pirks/Takin when you admit that Apple's design philosophy gives them the OS update advantage and their use of high performance CPU/GPU gives them a long term performance advantage, while their choice of a slightly smaller 3.5" screen gives them a significant battery life advantage.

These things have been true since 2007 and are still true, today.


RE: Innovation
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/2012 4:50:18 PM , Rating: 2
How is that not "barely" beating it out in your mind? Your claim of the iPhone being only 4 months behind is absurd. I guess the HTC One X doesn't beat the 4S either, right? Please!

OH I know, Apple is the greatest ever and you sleep with an iPhone stuffed into the crotch of your Hello Kitty matching sleepwear.


RE: Innovation
By Cheesew1z69 on 7/31/2012 4:56:46 PM , Rating: 2
Also comparing the 4S to S2? O_o


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 5:03:32 PM , Rating: 1
Um, the HTC One X definitely beats the 4S, but note it's 3 months old.

Meaning, the iPhone 4S was king of the hill up until 4 months ago.

Ergo, 4 months behind!

Also, read the links and my figures again.

The 4S had better battery life, GPU, and CPU with equivalent camera performance than the Galaxy S2. In what way is that "barely"? The only places the S2 scored wins was hotspot and call length.


RE: Innovation
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/2012 5:20:29 PM , Rating: 1
Wtf are you talking about? The CPU on the S2 is WAY faster than the 4S.

Benchmarks across platforms and different OS's are NOT exactly the best way to compare two phones either. Not that you would care. We're talking about hardware here, NOT software.

My point was that the 4S did not blow the S2 away. In my mind when you win some tests, win some specs, and lose others, that's "barely". In your mind apparently the 4S is twice the phone as the S2, which it's clearly not.

The Galaxy S2 wins in:
1. Storage and RAM (TWICE the RAM as the 4S)
2. CPU performance
3. Screen Size
4. LTE Connectivity (even though your camp doesn't know what LTE is, this is a pretty big deal)

How the fuck does this not stack up well against the iPhone 4S again, you stupid Appletard troll?

quote:
Um, the HTC One X definitely beats the 4S, but note it's 3 months old.


It came out in FEBRUARY. Google is your friend.


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 7/31/2012 5:42:51 PM , Rating: 2
"Google is your friend"

I dont think that it is... He may still be asking Jeeves ;)


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 6:03:27 PM , Rating: 2
Google is definitely my friend:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/26/2824075/htc-one-...

One X announced in February to be released in April.

The phone has only been available for four months. April, May, June, and July. My claims of it being a four month old phone is true, and therefore my claims that the iPhone (compared to the HTC One X) being four months behind is also true.


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 7/31/2012 6:35:05 PM , Rating: 2
I know... I meant in a sense that you are an Apple fan, thus Google is not your friend. ;)


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 6:42:05 PM , Rating: 2
Also, since I didn't reply directly to you, you might have missed the fact that you are wrong. Google is my friend:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/26/2824075/htc-one-...

One X announced in February and released in April.


RE: Innovation
By testerguy on 8/1/2012 3:46:48 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Wtf are you talking about? The CPU on the S2 is WAY faster than the 4S.


http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4971/41963...
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4971/41962...

quote:
1. Storage and RAM (TWICE the RAM as the 4S)


RAM would only be a relevant metric if the 2 operating systems were as efficient as each other. iOS is far more memory efficient and thus requires less RAM. It doesn't affect the performance.

quote:
2. CPU performance


See above

quote:
3. Screen Size


Lower resolution, lower DPI, and a brick. Winning?

quote:
4. LTE Connectivity


Certainly even less relevant back then, LTE even now isn't supported by the majority of the world.

quote:
How the fuck does this not stack up well against the iPhone 4S again, you stupid Appletard troll?


I just had to quote this, priceless. ;-)

CPU:
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4971/41963...
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4971/41962...

GPU:
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4971/41964...
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4971/41965...

Battery:
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4971/41743...
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4971/41744...

Amazing that you can even ask the question, to be honest.


RE: Innovation
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/31/12, Rating: 0
RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 5:11:06 PM , Rating: 1
No, what's going to happen is:
1) Apple switches to a 22nm Qualcomm radio to dramatically reduce power use
2) Apple switches to a 32nm SoC to dramatically reduce power use
3) Apple increases the phone length to include a bigger battery

The combination of the three will almost guarantee that the iPhone remains king of the hill in terms of battery life, even with a 4" screen.

Likewise, by switching to a 32nm SoC they can also increase performance of the SoC if they choose (which I hope they do given the higher pixel count of the next iPhone). Given how the 4S is still competitive (though clearly beaten) by less than 4 month old phones (HTC One, Galaxy S3), just bumping the clock from 800MHz to 1GHz should be sufficient to being best in class again.

I don't think my rhetoric is ridiculous. Between the 4S and the recent release of the S3 and One, Apple had one of the best phones on the market; is that really that hard for you to refute using numbers or benchmarks? Anand documents this regularly with every new major phone that comes out.


RE: Innovation
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/31/2012 5:35:40 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Apple had one of the best phones on the market
But that's the point really -- Apple's phone had been relatively solid in past years hardware-wise if you overlook the lawsuit trolling and the stall in iOS UI development.

But Apple has only one phone and it has a tiny screen.

If it is to win in sales it must be not only "one of the best", it must be "THE best". That is where it is struggling, even before UI is considered.

When you consider the complete stall on the UI front, the iPhone is no longer "one of the best" in terms of all-around experience. In hardware, yes. In experience, no.


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 6:13:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If it is to win in sales it must be not only "one of the best", it must be "THE best".

I'm not fighting that battle. Apple isn't fighting that battle.

Apple's battle is, as per the article's headline quote:
quote:
Designing great products is the main goal

Winning phone sales is never going to happen, and to even consider it smacks of a strawman. Android will fill every niche Apple refuses to enter; 5" or 3", $150 pricepoints, clamshell/slider/candybar/flip/qwerty phones, etc.

Which is why I don't think it's fair to call me out on a strawman. Apple won't design a $200 iPhone (excepting it costs $80 to make), won't design a 5" iPhone (excepting exotic screen technologies that allow it to roll up into a normal iPhone size), removable battery, etc.

I don't even think the UI stalled; I brought up Siri before and I think Apple's betting on voice being the next UI environment, in which you talk to your phone ala Jarvis from Avengers.

"Siri, what's the weather going to be like in a couple hours?"
"Siri, have my prescription for cephlax refilled."
"Siri, reserve a room at the Bellagio for CES next year."

And that's why it's a risky proposition, because it's unknown at this point if it will pan out.


RE: Innovation
By testerguy on 8/1/2012 3:52:22 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
But that's the point really -- Apple's phone had been relatively solid in past years hardware-wise if you overlook the lawsuit trolling and the stall in iOS UI development.


Correction, whether you 'overlook' the perfectly normal lawsuits aiming to prevent copycats ripping off products or not, analysis of the hardware is unaffected.

quote:
But Apple has only one phone and it has a tiny screen.


It has a normal sized screen, not 'tiny' - and that is actually much of its appeal to many users. Certainly I know of several people who wanted the iPhone specifically because it is small and thus less bulky to carry around. What they will probably do with the new iPhone is enlarge the screen without adversely affecting the form factor.

quote:
If it is to win in sales it must be not only "one of the best", it must be "THE best". That is where it is struggling, even before UI is considered.


The iPhone 4S was far and away the fastest phone, hardware wise when it was released. It WAS the best. Only with the release of only the international version of the SG3 in the last couple of months (7 months after the iPhone 4S) has it been surpassed. Do you honestly think that the new iPhone wont recapture the performance crown, like every recent product release has?

quote:
When you consider the complete stall on the UI front, the iPhone is no longer "one of the best" in terms of all-around experience. In hardware, yes. In experience, no.


That isn't a substantiated fact. It's your biased (and therefore irrelevant) opinion. It's worthless. The more accurate reality is that many people still prefer iOS to Android, for a whole host of reasons. What Android is being sold in is the sheer variety of hardware catering to any niche requirements, which Apple can't do with only one model. It isn't being sold on the operating system offering anything more than iOS.


RE: Innovation
By One43637 on 7/31/2012 5:17:46 PM , Rating: 3
Siri =
- Dragon Dictation from Naunce
- Wolfram Alpha
- Yelp

That's repackaging, not innovating.


RE: Innovation
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/31/2012 2:41:45 PM , Rating: 2
To repeat Brandon:
quote:
He added that they are no longer innovating.

In case you missed it, the key phrase is no longer .

The commenters never suggested that Apple hasn't accomplished great things in a past text. They're just arguing that since the iPad was introduced and Steve Jobs departed the company little progress has been made.

Not at all the same as what you try to accuse them of saying:
quote:
Not innovators?

A degree of reading comprehension is necessary.

As for this:
quote:
They only invented the first commercially successful Personal Computer, the first commercially successful portable mp3 player, the first commercially successful consumer smart phone, and the first commercially successful tablet.

Notice the qualifier on all of those: I'll grant they didn't invent the technology, but they did do exactly what the article claims and package it with a usable, attractive design that led directly to commercial success over struggling competitors.
I think most of us on this site would absolutely agree with you there -- Apple -- or Apple under Steve Jobs, at least -- was a brilliant commercializer.

Samsung in its court filings writes:
quote:
Contrary to the image it has cultivated in the popular press, Apple has admitted in internal documents that its strength is not in developing new technologies first, but in successfully commercializing them.
That's basically the exact thing you just said.

So even you seemingly acknowledge that Apple's contributions have been less in developing new technology, and more in producing it affordably and marketing it.

Yet it's trying to repatent existing technology and sue others to stifle competition, now that it's getting out-marketed.

That is the key issue here. And that is why many on this site criticize Apple.

If it stopped doing that, I think most critics on DT would have little issue with Apple.


RE: Innovation
By testerguy on 7/31/12, Rating: 0
RE: Innovation
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/31/2012 3:45:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
They aren't trying to ' re-patent ' the technology they are commercializing (something which is legally not possible, by the way)
Wrong.

I really don't want to repeat myself, so I'll save myself both of us time and just provide you some links to prove my point.

http://www.dailytech.com/Samsung+Apples+iPhone+Sta...

http://www.dailytech.com/Android+Win+Apple+Blasted...

http://www.dailytech.com/Analysis+Neonode+Patented...

http://www.dailytech.com/Apple+Patents+Mobile+List...

http://www.dailytech.com/Samsungs+Australian+Peace...

Yes, Apple is re-patenting many ideas or patenting ideas that have already been well established with decades of prior art like multi-touch or disappearing scrollers.

Try again?


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 7/31/2012 4:07:03 PM , Rating: 2
Its pretty hilarious when someone is so wrong yet they insist they are right. This guy is truly the Iraqi communications minister from 2002. LOL. Only hes a condescending obnoxious nastly lil cuss at the same time.


RE: Innovation
By testerguy on 8/1/2012 2:46:23 AM , Rating: 2
How on earth do you think that providing links to the very biased drivel I'm proving wrong proves anything but that you can't find any external sources to back you up?

Post 1 - http://www.dailytech.com/Samsung+Apples+iPhone+Sta...

That is a picture of an APPLE designed phone, which they added a Sony logo onto. Thus their own design. Of a product which was never released. It's also not to do with the technology itself, it's to do with the implementation, which was my point that it is that part which Apple is protecting, not existing technology.

Post 2 - http://www.dailytech.com/Android+Win+Apple+Blasted...

More of your own biased drivel in which you essentially put forward the case against one minor software patent, without recognising the differences (which I pointed out clearly in the comments section). Again, this patent is nothing to do with the components which you claim Apple is seeking to re-patent. To recap - the Apple patent isn't restricted to a specific direction, has visual feedback, and isn't even used for the same function as Neonode, which was a 'back/forward', not an unlock.

Link 3 - The same, as 2, don't know why you posted the same irrelevant drivel twice.

Link 4 - http://www.dailytech.com/Apple+Patents+Mobile+List...

All I see there is a link to a story about apple successfully being granted patents (patents which have absolutely nothing to do with the legal case vs Samsung, by the way). Specifically I see no examples there of any prior technology which does the same, and once more the patent in question has nothing to do with the technical components which go into the iPhone.

Link 5 - http://www.dailytech.com/Samsungs+Australian+Peace...

This is just an article saying that Article wasn't prepared to license its patents. Absolutely and entirely irrelevant.

You could not have posted links with any less relevance, to be honest, and as I mentioned above the fact your only evidence is linking yourself says it all.

Your entire 5 link list essentially boils down to one claim you make about the Neo-node slide to unlock patent, a minor patent which isn't featuring heavily in this case, and a patent which has seen both positive and negative decisions in courts of law.

In other words, you provided no response at all.


RE: Innovation
By FormulaRedline on 7/31/2012 4:12:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So even you seemingly acknowledge that Apple's contributions have been less in developing new technology, and more in producing it affordably and marketing it.
Exactly. The person that recognizes the usefulness of the invention and brings it to market also adds value. Must an innovator always have a lab coat on and a soldering iron in his hand?

If that was true, we'd all still be typing at our command prompts while Xerox sat on a something they didn't even know the value of.

quote:
Yet it's trying to repatent existing technology and sue others to stifle competition
I don't at all disagree with this and even more unfortunately they aren't the only ones going down this path. It would be great if judges would just start throwing this crap out.

quote:
They're just arguing that since the iPad was introduced and Steve Jobs departed the company little progress has been made.
I guess my time scale is just different here. I don't expect world changing events/innovations so often. Maybe you are right and the loss of Jobs will mark a change. As a lover of all things high resolution, however, I would argue that last month's introduction of a 2880 x 1800 screen into a 15" laptop is an indication that the trend of marketing and producing affordably what is essentially existing technology will continue.


RE: Innovation
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/31/2012 5:02:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
As a lover of all things high resolution, however, I would argue that last month's introduction of a 2880 x 1800 screen into a 15" laptop is an indication that the trend of marketing and producing affordably what is essentially existing technology will continue.
I agree it is quite nice and I was quite taken by it at first too. But here's my concerns:

1. It's at a ridiculously high price point (compared to the iPhone and iPad which were expensive, but reachable for most consumers).
2. It's just a single improvement -- the iPhone in 2007 and the iPad in 2010 were diverse multi-faceted products that collected many pre-existing ideas into a single slick package. Thus they're very different than the MBP Retina in terms of level off innovation from a marketing perspective.

I get where you're coming from, but I just think in the big picture Apple's big strength -- collecting lots of good ideas in a single package and marketing it like the Dickens -- was driven by Jobs. When he passed I think Apple lost its focus and ability to produce new iconic products.

Tim Cook and Co. may prove me wrong, but they sure haven't yet.

And the ridiculous lawsuits make Apple's already tenuous position worse, by making it look like a tired laggard who can't compete so is instead suing.


RE: Innovation
By Cheesew1z69 on 7/31/2012 2:48:41 PM , Rating: 3
Except they didn't "invent" those..they were already around. They just IMPROVED on them. Big difference.


RE: Innovation
By kleinma on 7/31/2012 3:03:04 PM , Rating: 2
Actually I had several "commercially successful" products that fall in those categories.

1) Not sure if you are calling the Apple I 'commercially successful' but it was not. Commodore released a commercially successful desktop computer prior to the Apple II coming out.

2) I owned several early MP3 players from Creative and RIO, and they all worked great and they were all good sellers and they were all out well before the iPod, not to mention how horrible the first iPod actually was.

3) First commercially successful smartphone?? really? ever heard of blackberry? Starting putting out smartphones in 1999, 8 years before the iPhone.

The only thing apple was successful with that did not have an already successful device on the market was the iPad, and they didn't invent it, they increased the size of the iPhone and took away the phone part. You can call that innovation sure, but not invention.

I can't take some random thing I have, make it 6x the size, and claim I invented something totally new.


RE: Innovation
By BZDTemp on 7/31/2012 5:13:52 PM , Rating: 2
What a load of Apple BS - stop taking their PR as fact.

quote:
The first commercially successful Personal Computer

I'd say the Altair 8800 holds that honor. Unless of course you wanna look at something later and more for the average user in which case I think both RadioShack and Commodore may as well be credited for having the first one.

quote:
the first commercially successful portable mp3 player

Seriously! I'm pretty sure both Diamond, Creative and a few others did rather well with their players - some of which beat Apple to the market by three years. Sure the iPods sold better but others came first.

quote:
the first commercially successful consumer smart phone
If you define consumers as sheep then Apple might be first but Nokia, Palm, Rim and loads others had good success before Apple. For sure Apple brought something new but they weren't first.

quote:
the first commercially successful tablet

This one I'll give you. It's not like I am gonna dispute that Apple innovates and for sure they are great at marketing but that is just it!

quote:
I guess completely changing the world only once a decade on average doesn't qualify you as an innovator anymore?

STOP! Apple have never completely changed the world or anything close to that - such a statement is simply absurd. Apple is a company which invents very little not a world changer. Name one Apple invention that has changed the World or have come even close to doing so.


RE: Innovation
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/2012 5:50:26 PM , Rating: 2
Old iRiver > Old iPod


RE: Innovation
By Quadrillity on 7/31/2012 2:49:53 PM , Rating: 3
To be fair, they did innovate the drop-down notification bar.... oh wait. oops.


RE: Innovation
By BSMonitor on 7/31/2012 3:41:52 PM , Rating: 1
Give me an example of an innovation since the first iPhone that Android devices, Blackberries, Windows Phones have added that has had an equal impact.

An eyeopener that one reflects on and says, no way can I go back.

Yeah, exactly. None.

Incorporating faster data over network providers and slightly bigger screens are not innovations. These are inevitable variants on the same product.


RE: Innovation
By c4v3man on 7/31/2012 4:11:21 PM , Rating: 2
The iPhone had nothing that Windows Mobile didn't already offer in regards to noticeable impact. It was merely marketed well. I know for people who started with an iPhone that he device seemed revolutionary, however it was merely evolutionary compared to other devices at the time.

I would argue that Widgets and the Notification Bar changed smartphone usage far more than the "smooth UI" that the iPhone introduced.


RE: Innovation
By Guspaz on 7/31/2012 3:56:06 PM , Rating: 2
Is it reasonable to expect a company to revolutionize an industry every year? Apple did well to have revolutionized (or at least shaken up enough to have changed dramatically) so many industries as it is. The personal computer (having invented it), the MP3 player (having made it practical in terms of size, cost, and capacity), the smartphone (having made it consumer-friendly), the tablet (reinvented the market and invented the modern tablet form factor), the thin and light notebook (would we have ultrabooks if not for the air?), the music industry (iTunes store versus traditional record album/store), etc.

Have they done anything recently? No, not in the past few years. But for a company that has had such a big impact on many industries (even if you hate Apple you can't argue they haven't impacted the industries causing the competition to put out better products), let's cut them a bit of slack.

They've got other stuff in the works. A new television is known to be in the works, which might be the first smart TV where anybody cares about the smart part. Could be a huge flop, can't know yet. I think the "know it will at least have a great LCD panel" bit is pretty valuable as-is; buying a flatpanel TV is annoying today because it's hard to tell which ones have good panels.


RE: Innovation
By The Raven on 7/31/2012 6:47:10 PM , Rating: 2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LG_Prada_%28KE850%29
quote:
Look at smart phones before the LG Prada and look at them after. Innovator? Maybe they weren't the first all touch phone, but they changed the game after they released it.

Fixed it for you.

LG must have thought that it was stupid to sue Apple for something as light as the similar appearance... I guess they didn't think any legal/IP system would be so stupid. Turns out they were wrong?


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 7/31/2012 2:14:50 PM , Rating: 2
"Apple’s business model is working for them and their shareholders, which is good for them but it will not hold off the wolves of completion forever. And neither will Apple’s lawyers."

A very good point. It's only a matter of time. Android at this point is a far better platform in almost every way. Eventually people will catch on, unless of course Apple starts to innovate again... Which could happen. They do have 100's of billions to spend on engineering and product design if they decide to.


RE: Innovation
By testerguy on 7/31/12, Rating: -1
RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 7/31/2012 3:53:01 PM , Rating: 2
LOL... Wow, your at it again with your bias, claiming others have a bias. What a flimsy list. I cant imagine what goes through your head to make you think that list is anything compared to what Android does better... Everything you listed is WAY low on the scale of what matters other than the ones that are outright wrong. I think you are still looking at Android 2.x from 2 years ago. Wake up and smell the year 2012.

Todays Android phones have...

- larger screens
- higher res
- faster SOC's
- better battery life
- removable batteries
- micro sd slots
- micro USB
- 4G
- Faster OS
- More flexible OS
- Much prettier OS

I really cant say enough about the larger screens. Watching movies via netflix or whatever your meduim of choice is is absolutely amazing. You just cant do that with a wee lil iPhone.

Now, lets pull a tg and talk about your list.

- Worse legacy device support (meh, 2 year old Androids arent all that great. Time to upgrade)
- Less secure (for who exactly? Most people use EAS for email and that is about all that matters)
- Fewer developers (meh, 500,000 apps vs. what 600,000 or so)?
- Fewer apps (meh, 500,000 apps vs. what 600,000 or so)?
- Massive issues with fragmentation (massive huh? What does that even effect? Therea re models for everyone's needs. This is the strength of the platform not the weekness you blithering dolt.
- Less profitable for developers ((meh, 500,000 apps vs. what 600,000 or so)?
- More piracy putting off developers ((meh, 500,000 apps vs. what 600,000 or so)?
- Worse battery life management (really, because by the reviews I have seen at Anandtech, there are plenmty models that do WAY better than iPhone. This is an absolute falsehood.
- Not as closely tied to hardware as iO. (This affects what? Androids have the fastest CPU's and GPU's, and the most memory...

NEXT!


RE: Innovation
By testerguy on 8/1/2012 3:29:21 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
What a flimsy list. I cant imagine what goes through your head to make you think that list is anything compared to what Android does better... Everything you listed is WAY low on the scale of what matters other than the ones that are outright wrong


Ironic that you accuse me of putting down the relevance of others points yet do exactly the same. Of course, when you do it you're factually mistaken..

Lets go through your idiocies one by one and help you realise your failings:

1 - Larger screens. Hardware, not software. That isn't Android, it's handsets. Learn the difference.
2 - As per 1
3 - As per 1, and since both iPad and iPhone lead the GPU benchmarks and have more closely linked GPU accelerated software, it is actually they which have superior performance. Again this is hardware not software. So not Android.
4 - Actually Apple products lead the battery life ratings over almost every Android phone - but again this is hardware not software. So not Android.
5 - As per 1
6 - As per 1
7 - Micro USB isn't an advantage unless your genuinely incapable of charging an iPhone (perhaps you are) - also there is a Micro USB adapter for iPhone. Also, again, it's hardware not software. So not Android.
8 - 4G is hardware, not software. Also the vast majority of the world can't use 4G yet so it's irrelevant for more people than not.
9 - Faster OS? Just flat out unprovable nonsense.
10 - More flexible OS? Subjective at best. With the higher number of higher quality apps, I say iOS is much more flexible. And the difference is, that flexibility is of practical benefit.
11 - 'Much prettier OS' - That's so subjective it isn't even a point.

So in essence you listed 2 things related to Android, and 9 about hardware. Proving that actually Android has nothing to do with it, it's just the volume of manufacturers and their HANDSETS which are sold at cheaper prices thus appealing to consumers. As I always stated. It's not Android which is selling Android, it's the handsets and the variety thereof.

quote:
Worse legacy device support (meh, 2 year old Androids arent all that great. Time to upgrade)


Yeah, who cares about whether or not your legacy device is supported. Meh, upgrade, silly guys (you're ridiculous).

quote:
Less secure (for who exactly? Most people use EAS for email and that is about all that matters)


For every single user. The app store itself is fundamentally insecure so anyone who uses apps. Just do a quick Google find any of the thousands of articles documenting the incidences of viruses and Malware on Android vs iOS. And stop being in denial. To be clear, this is just one of many examples where there is a reality, and you simply refuse to acknowledge said reality. Read that sentence a few times, take a step back, and realise how ludicrous your denial is.

quote:
Fewer developers (meh, 500,000 apps vs. what 600,000 or so)?


Did you somehow confuse 'developers' for 'apps'? Not only does more developers mean more apps, it means that the apps there are are higher quality. Since iOS is much, much more profitable for developers it also attracts the leading developers. Much of Androids apps are guys in their garage creating amateur apps which have to go through no approval process. Apple keeps the quality high by turning down thousands and thousands of apps that make it onto Android.

quote:
Massive issues with fragmentation (massive huh? What does that even effect? Therea re models for everyone's needs. This is the strength of the platform not the weekness you blithering dolt.


How can you possibly display such ignorance, whilst at the same time calling me a 'blithering dolt'. Do you honestly need me to explain to you the issues of fragmentation, in terms of app development and device compatibility and support? To dumb it down for you - when the big men develop the games and stuff for the phone you hold the big men have to think about many phones and what they can and can't do which makes it harder for the big men to develop games and stuff which work good on all the phones!!!

Your question of what fragmentation actually effects makes me wonder if you're even credible or knowledgeable enough to bother discussing with. You crossed the stupid line.

quote:
Worse battery life management (really, because by the reviews I have seen at Anandtech, there are plenmty models that do WAY better than iPhone. This is an absolute falsehood.


Again, you're referring to specific handsets, not the operating system. Again, that fails to address the route point. The iPhone 4S has the most powerful GPU in any american smartphone, it's no shock that some Androids with lower performance and battery pack bulky modules can outlast it. They have various different battery capacities and capability and that is hardware. What I'm pointing out to you is that with closer integration between hardware and software Apple is able to maximise the battery life taking the above into account.

Of course, that completely escaped you.

quote:
Not as closely tied to hardware as iO. (This affects what? Androids have the fastest CPU's and GPU's, and the most memory...


Again, this is one of those examples where you cross the stupid line. What it means is that to achieve the same end performance, Android necessarily requires more RAM and a faster CPU, thus you don't actually see any real benefit from it. And since the GPU's in every American smartphone are in fact, slower than the iPhone 4S - your comment is fundamentally flawed anyway.

To dumb it down for you again, when the big men have to make the phone pictures work on all the phones, they have to add special things which aren't needed on every phone. This is like the big men having to carry suitcases with them everywhere they go and that slows them down.

Finally, to go back to your already proven irrelevant HARDWARE points which I haven't already covered:

SD Slots - You can buy an SD Card adapter for an iPhone for $3. Most people don't, because most people use cloud storage. But the option is there.

Removable batteries - There are 2 cases where you need this. 1 - To carry a spare battery - you can achieve the same on an iPhone by simply carrying a mobile charger. Same weight, bulk as a replacement battery, same end result, similar cost. So no benefit at all having a replaceable battery.

Second case is when you need to replace your battery, now should I use your unbelievably retarded argument that you will only need to do this after 2 year or so so 'meh, upgrade already'? Or should I actually offer something intelligent:

In those cases you simply walk into an Apple store, or send your phone in, and get the battery replaced. As it happens the majority of users don't need to do this even after 2-3 years, it's not exactly much more of a hassle then ordering a new battery - you either go to a shop or you send for it.

So to summarise - the vast majority of what you said was hardware based, completely missing the whole topic of discussion (typical for you) - since Android is SOFTWARE, not HARDWARE - and the rest was simply you saying absolute nonsense like 'meh, upgrade already' in the face of legacy devices not being updated.

You're an Android apologist, and you think anyone who isn't that retarded is biased. It's like you need to take a step back and realise that you are the issue, not everyone else.


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 8/1/2012 8:34:55 AM , Rating: 2
I hate to break this to you, but you dont go out and buy IOS or Android. You buy a phone, and that phone is a feature set based on hw and sw. If you could buy an IOS device with a 4.8 inch screen the argument would be moot. You cant get out of this with semantics. Your whole arguments are based on the app store and the incoherent fact that Android is an OS not a phone? Come on, Insert "Android phone" and answer the points is that hard for you to follow.

Forget it, your hopeless. Good luck with your iPhone. I will keep my phone that smokes it in every way I care about. You can have your app store, I will take my faster, bigger higher res, better OS, prettier, longer lasting, 4G, removable battery phone and you can have your app store OK?


RE: Innovation
By Cheesew1z69 on 8/1/2012 9:02:43 AM , Rating: 1
I honestly don't understand why anyone responds to him anymore, he writes a fucking novel each time he posts. And no matter what you say, it's irrelevant, or you aren't being logical. Or, in not so many words, he calls you stupid and insults you, yet complains about others doing it. He's a batshit nutcase hypocrite.


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 8/1/2012 10:43:56 AM , Rating: 1
"I honestly don't understand why anyone responds to him anymore, he writes a fucking novel each time he posts. And no matter what you say, it's irrelevant"

I dont mind. I do it to counter his bias, and the fact that he gets so pissed off, all the funnier. I picture the nut red faced at his computer typing away LOL.

"He's a batshit nutcase hypocrite."

I agree with you there. I mean we joke around with Tony and Pirks, and its mostly all in good fun, but this guy really has issues.


RE: Innovation
By Cheesew1z69 on 8/1/2012 10:55:02 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
but this guy really has issues.
No kidding..


RE: Innovation
By testerguy on 8/2/2012 5:49:09 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I hate to break this to you, but you dont go out and buy IOS or Android


Just trying to see if this disproves any of my comments. Nope.

quote:
You buy a phone, and that phone is a feature set based on hw and sw


Yes, you do buy a PHONE. Not Phones. Yet your feature list isn't specific to a phone. It isn't really specific to anything.

Whatever you try to defend your point on by claiming what it was actually about - the fact is my post was very clearly about Android. If your best argument is that your post WASN'T about Android, but rather Android phones, that makes you stupid. And irrelevant.

I'm debating which operating system is better, it's not rocket science. Hardware is irrelevant to that. If we were talking about which specific combination of hardware and software was better, we would need to be referring to a specific handset, which you didn't. But we weren't any way.

Here's the chain of events in simple terms for you:

1 - I talk about x
2 - You rant about y
3 - I tell you that x isn't y
4 - You say 'you can't argue semantics'

LOL

By the way, only a very small percentage of my 'argument' (factual statements) were about the app store, and it's in no way 'incoherent' to state the fact that Android is an OS, and not a phone.

Indeed, it is beyond dumb that you even claim such a commonly known fact is 'incoherent' (which isn't the right word to use in that context anyway).

'Faster' - actually not so, it has a slower GPU.
'Bigger' - not necessarily a good thing.
'Higher res' - yet lower DPI.
'Better OS' - wow you managed to talk about an OS whilst realising that it's not the same as the phone hardware? Clearly subjective nonsense too.
'Prettier' - I really, really hope you aren't referring to the SG3, I've even seen numerous Android fans slating it. It's a childrens toy at best.
'Longer lasting' - actually many of the battery benchmarks are won by the iPhone
'Removable battery' - no practical benefit whatsoever, as I've already explained.

;-)


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 8/1/2012 10:40:04 AM , Rating: 2
OK, I was in a hurrrey earlier, but now have some time I can respond to the individual points.

First off, what I said right above my list above is "Todays Android phones have..." Then you proceeded to misunderstand what "Android Phones" meant. you seemed to think that meant the OS and then you proceeded to insult my intelligence and pick apart my points from a false premise with the skill of a politician. If you were Glenn Beck and I were your boss, I would say "thats a good days work" to you and be done with it. But we arent that. Your post is all over the place but I will try and pin it back down to a few bullet points... Again, as I said above "Todays Android phones have...

- larger screens - Point to Android
- higher res - Point to Android.
- faster SOC's . Yes, cpu performance android phones have it beat. Props to Apple for putting a meaty GPU in the iPhone 4s. todays GPU's are up there too winning some losing some, but that is against a 9 month old iPhone 4s. good GPU absolutly, but we will see plenty more SOC's out from now through the end of the year and Android phones will be using them. http://www.anandtech.com/show/6126/glbenchmark-25-... - Call it a tie.

- better battery life "Actually Apple products lead the battery life ratings over almost every Android phone "

Say what now? In some tests, but in others its not even close. I guess you see what you want to see. Also NOTE: the Android phones are doing it with MUCH larger screens. Point goes to Android. http://www.anandtech.com/show/6022/samsung-galaxy-...

- removable batteries. The fact that you fail to see the benefit, doesnt mean there is no benefit. If I am travelling and will be away from electricity its super easy to have a second spare battery charged. Point to Android

- micro sd slots - a HUGE advantage. An adaptor? ick. Mine is tucked nicely inside permanently. Point Android.

- micro USB - "micro USB isn't an advantage unless your genuinely incapable of charging an iPhone "

Being compatible with every charger made for every phone on Planet Earth isnt an advantage? OK, I dont think I even need to explain further. Point to Android.

- 4G "the vast majority of the world can't use 4G yet so it's irrelevant for more people than not."

OK, so having faster standards isnt relevent until Apple has it. THEN its relevant? Nice cop-out. Point to Android

- Faster OS "Just flat out unprovable nonsense."

Actually its easily provable. Check out Youtube for Jelly Bean demoes. There are 100's of them. They are great because it shows it in real time. There are OS demo's and Siri vs. Google voice search. Just becasue you arent aware of things doesnt mean they dont exist. - Point to Android.

- More flexible OS "subjective at best. With the higher number of higher quality apps, I say iOS is much more flexible. And the difference is, that flexibility is of practical benefit." This is more to the ability for manufactueres to do what they want with it, in other words, not just one model. - call it a tie, because you have a point about the app store.

- Much prettier OS "That's so subjective it isn't even a point"

You could also say that Margaret Thatcher is better looking than Angelina Jolie, because its subjective... But everyone agrees Android is where its at based on looks and eye candy. IOS is still every bit as boring looking as its initial release in 2007. This has been gone over again and again, but whatever. Point to Android.

"Yeah, who cares about whether or not your legacy device is supported. Meh, upgrade, silly guys (you're ridiculous)."
Android phones 2 years ago werent up to par. They just werent... Android 2.x and the phones that they came with were not ready for prime time, I agree. Todays whones with 4.0 and 4.1 are not only ready, they are far better. Android and the manufacturers that use it have really stepped up their game and not only caught up with Apple, but surpassed it. You still have that 2 year old impression of Android, but this is 2012, you need to look at it today, as today is where we live. Point to IOS though, with an asterisk. * Android 2.x to 4.1 is a huge improvement. IOS 4 to IOS 6 is not so much of a jump.

There is a lot of fluff here about security and apps. I agree, the iOS app environment is better, not by a huge margin, and not as important as you make it out. Both platforms do the same things and apps on both do the same things. If you can tell me some funtionality that exists on IOS and not Android, otherwise that is that... Point to IOS though.

"The iPhone 4S has the most powerful GPU in any american smartphone, it's no shock that some Androids with lower performance and battery pack bulky modules can outlast it."

Android phones have bigger screens and higher res, which takes more power but of course that is ignored? LOL. Point to Android.

"You're an Android apologist, and you think anyone who isn't that retarded is biased. It's like you need to take a step back and realise that you are the issue, not everyone else."

Right back at ya. Here is the differences between you and I.

You:
1. Only post in articles about Apple. You created your ID here for that purpose and only that purpose.
2. Totally exaggerate Apples benefits
3. Totally exaggerate Androids weakness.
4. Totally ignore Androids benefits
5. Totally ignore Apples weakness.

Me:
I have been coming here for 12 years. Literally, Anandtech has been my homepage the whole time. I post on any and all subjects. I do not ignore Apples benefits and I do not exaggerate their weaknesses.


RE: Innovation
By testerguy on 8/2/2012 6:14:50 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
First off, what I said right above my list above is "Todays Android phones have..." Then you proceeded to misunderstand what "Android Phones" meant


Should I point out to you the fact that at the top of my post I stated 'Android' and not 'Android phones', and explain how you proceeded to misunderstand what 'Android' meant? If you want to dismiss your whole response to my comment as entirely irrelevant due to being on a different subject, by all means go ahead. The irrelevance I pointed out, and all of the points in my original and subsequent comments remain unaffected. What's ironic is that you fail to realise that you were replying to me . Thus for your point to have any relevance it would necessarily have to be on the same subject as mine.

Your list of what 'Android phones' have is also not correct. Most of them do not have any of the items in your list. As I mentioned above, you would have to refer to a specific phone, not the collective capabilities of all the phones. Of course, I'm not talking about Android phones, so all of that section can be ignored as irrelevant. You don't get to choose the topic when replying to my post ;-)

My quote:
quote:
Actually Apple products lead the battery life ratings over almost every Android phone


quote:
Say what now? In some tests, but in others its not even close. I guess you see what you want to see. Also NOTE: the Android phones are doing it with MUCH larger screens. Point goes to Android. http://www.anandtech.com/show/6022/samsung-galaxy-...


Slight pause here where I decide where to start on what is just an unbelievably epic failure:

1 - The link you posted shows Apple consistently topping or close to leading in every metric, certainly above most Android phones in every individual test.
2 - The link you posted shows the iPhone lasting at least 1.54 hours longer while browsing the web.
3 - The link you posted shows the iPhone lasting at least 3.4 hours longer whilst web browsing.
4 - The link you posted shows the iPhone lasting 1.2 hours less whilst talking.

So overall, the iPhone wins. And that's with significantly lower batter capacity (because the iPhone has a smaller volume), indicating massively better battery life AND efficiency overall. And that's a 9 month old phone, vs a 2 month old phone. Still winning...

What I can't work out is how stupid you have to be to post an article which proves you wrong...

quote:
The fact that you fail to see the benefit, doesnt mean there is no benefit. If I am travelling and will be away from electricity its super easy to have a second spare battery charged. Point to Android


Honestly, I don't know how many times I will have to explain this concept to you. I will explain it in retard terms because that's all you seem to get:

1 - You're in the woods, with no power.
2 - If you've got an Android, you pull out your replacement battery and replace it.
3 - If you've got an Apple, you pull out your mobile battery charger, which is the same size, weight, and cost of a replacement battery, and plug it into your phone. No need for any plugs.

How can you not get that after so many times?

quote:
micro sd slots - a HUGE advantage. An adaptor? ick. Mine is tucked nicely inside permanently. Point Android.


Yeah an SD adaptor is such a problem in a world increasingly moving away from SD cards which offer slow storage and the inclusion of which simply increases the bulk of your phone.

quote:
Being compatible with every charger made for every phone on Planet Earth isnt an advantage?


Actually, no it isn't, if you're capable of charging your phone up, you don't need that. As I said. You can get a Micro USB adapter cheaply for the iPhone anyway, but again most don't because they don't lack the intelligence to plug the supplied charger into their phone.


RE: Innovation
By testerguy on 8/2/2012 6:16:14 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
OK, so having faster standards isnt relevent until Apple has it. THEN its relevant? Nice cop-out. Point to Android


What I actually stated was that having 'faster standards' isn't relevant if the people in question (which is the majority of the world) can't use it. I didn't say anything about it becoming relevant when Apple adds it. You added that (obviously, as it's the only retarded part of what you 'quoted'). It's irrelevant whether Apple adds it or not, which is why the 4G iPad only works in America.

quote:
Actually its easily provable. Check out Youtube for Jelly Bean demoes. There are 100's of them. They are great because it shows it in real time. There are OS demo's and Siri vs. Google voice search. Just becasue you arent aware of things doesnt mean they dont exist. - Point to Android.


A demo of Jelly Bean doesn't even come remotely close to proving any difference between the speed of the two operating systems. Siri is a tiny part of the operating system, in fact it's an add-on because some devices running iOS 5 don't have Siri. Siri, incidentally, is slower than Google Voice, that I concede, but it isn't a measure of the operating system, so irrelevant.

quote:
This is more to the ability for manufactueres to do what they want with it, in other words, not just one model. - call it a tie, because you have a point about the app store.


Because the iOS manufacturers (Apple) don't have a choice what they want to do with it? If anything Apple has massively MORE flexibility because they can build anything they want into it and tie it directly to hardware.

quote:
You could also say that Margaret Thatcher is better looking than Angelina Jolie, because its subjective... But everyone agrees Android is where its at based on looks and eye candy. IOS is still every bit as boring looking as its initial release in 2007. This has been gone over again and again, but whatever. Point to Android.


Incorrect analogy, and simple untruth stating things like 'everyone agrees'... when clearly they don't. Your subjective and irrelevant opinion that iOS is boring does not make any relevant point. Lets be clear that I am educated and logical enough to label it subjective, without feeling the need to voice my own opinion. See, I have the requisite intelligence to realise when something is purely subjective and that such things are absolutely and entirely unprovable. You don't.

quote:
Android phones 2 years ago werent up to par. They just werent... Android 2.x and the phones that they came with were not ready for prime time, I agree. Todays whones with 4.0 and 4.1 are not only ready, they are far better. Android and the manufacturers that use it have really stepped up their game and not only caught up with Apple, but surpassed it. You still have that 2 year old impression of Android, but this is 2012, you need to look at it today, as today is where we live. Point to IOS though, with an asterisk. * Android 2.x to 4.1 is a huge improvement. IOS 4 to IOS 6 is not so much of a jump.


I wonder if you honestly believe this rant which goes on about hardware mostly has anything to do with the FACT that Android has a terrible upgrade path and many relatively new devices can't even run the latest version of the software. Are you really that clueless? Stop apologising for Android, how bad or good the historical devices were/are is irrelevant when even the latest devices don't support Jelly Bean. That isn't an old impression of Android, it's even the case for BRAND NEW devices which come without support. You need to realise your own bias, it's unbelievable.

quote:
There is a lot of fluff here about security and apps. I agree, the iOS app environment is better, not by a huge margin, and not as important as you make it out. Both platforms do the same things and apps on both do the same things. If you can tell me some funtionality that exists on IOS and not Android, otherwise that is that..


Fine, Formula 1 coverage in the UK. Easy. And that's one of several I personally have experienced. Security issues affect everyone, not just some people. To try to deny it away as 'fluff' is a joke, to be honest. I wonder how you can honestly type such drivel as 'ahh security fluff' without realising you have no point whatsoever.

quote:
Android phones have bigger screens and higher res, which takes more power but of course that is ignored? LOL. Point to Android.


Battery life has been covered above thanks to your delightfully retarded link proving me right.

quote:
You: 1. Only post in articles about Apple. You created your ID here for that purpose and only that purpose. 2. Totally exaggerate Apples benefits 3. Totally exaggerate Androids weakness. 4. Totally ignore Androids benefits 5. Totally ignore Apples weakness. Me: I have been coming here for 12 years. Literally, Anandtech has been my homepage the whole time. I post on any and all subjects. I do not ignore Apples benefits and I do not exaggerate their weaknesses.


None of the above has any relevance to any of the points. The fact you have to raise it shows that you deep down know that your attempt to argue with me is flawed, illogical, and in some cases directly wrong. I could live on the moon and eat gorillas, it doesn't change that what I say is the facts.

And by the way, you absolutely do ignore Apples benefits, I mean lets look at the last post 'security fluff', or the upgrade path 'meh, upgrade already'. You breeze over the GPU like it's not important, you try to put down the apps, you ignore the leading reliability ratings, leading customer satisfaction, you're blind to the point of reading inferior battery life out of a set of charts which clearly prove the iPhone leading the way.

You are absolutely absurd, and it's your level of absurdity which drives me to reply. And that anti-Apple absurdity only manifests itself on Apple articles.

And by the way, LMFAO @ 'hurrrey'


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 8/2/2012 8:00:51 AM , Rating: 2
"Siri is a tiny part of the operating system, in fact it's an add-on because some devices running iOS 5 don't have Siri. Siri, incidentally, is slower than Google Voice, that I concede, but it isn't a measure of the operating system, so irrelevant."

Again, you type alot and read little. I said there were OS demos AND Siri vs. Google Now demos, of course, you didnt look to see what it does and how fast it operates.

"And by the way, LMFAO @ 'hurrrey'"

Really? Now you are going to pick apart a typo?

" None of the above has any relevance to any of the points. The fact you have to raise it shows that you deep down know that your attempt to argue with me is flawed, illogical, and in some cases directly wrong. "

Actually it's more relevant than anything else either of us have said in this thread. It speaks to the very nature of why you are here and why I am here. You arent right and your points are skewed. Re-skewing isnt getting either of us anywhere, clearly we disagree.

Your inability to think clearly and see 2 sides to any argument makes this a pointless venture.You need to get laid and get some counseling. I am done playing this game with you and your mental imbalance. Have a nice angry, lonely day.


RE: Innovation
By retrospooty on 8/2/2012 7:51:43 AM , Rating: 2
"Should I point out to you the fact that at the top of my post I stated 'Android' and not 'Android phones', and explain how you proceeded to misunderstand what 'Android' meant? If you want to dismiss your whole response to my comment as entirely irrelevant due to being on a different subject, by all means go ahead. The irrelevance I pointed out, and all of the points in my original and subsequent comments remain unaffected. What's ironic is that you fail to realise that you were replying to me . "

??? Wht converstion are you even having any more? This whole thing started when YOU were replying to ME, not the other way around. I said "A very good point. It's only a matter of time. Android at this point is a far better platform in almost every way. " and YOU came in with your flimsy list, to which I responded. With what you can get with Android vs IOS. YOu cant even have a debalte and stay on point with who said what.

You have a mental imbalance that clouds everything. I dont even thing your an Apple stooge anymore, I just think you have a problem period. This is highlighted to me on how you always go straight to the intelligence level of your opponent, as if you have an issue with your own. "Hi My name is [xxxxxxx] and your really stupid"

Your a sad sad person.


RE: Innovation
By michael2k on 7/31/2012 2:47:15 PM , Rating: 2
I would argue the Retina iPad and MacBook Pro (2012) counts, given that the iPad leapfrogs many laptops for screen density and resolution while the MBP leapfrogs just about all of the LCDs for sale today.

So even today they keep innovating:
2007: iPhone
2008: AppStore, annual iOS update, MacBook Air, multitouch MacBooks
2009: All iterative, nothing particularly exciting
2010: iPad, Retina iPhone
2011: Thunderbolt Display, Thunderbolt Macs
2012: Retina iPad, Retina MacBook Pro

Yes, it's a lot of small changes but some of them (such as regular OS updates) is still something the Android vendors are struggling to do, while the Retina iPad/MacBook Pro is something no one else has matched on a large scale, yet.

The wolves of competition are still active to keep everyone on their toes, Apple included. Lawsuits aren't the only thing keeping Apple in the game, as much as people think they are. People are still actively choosing and purchasing Apple products.


RE: Innovation
By Cheesew1z69 on 7/31/2012 3:03:20 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I would argue
Again, nothing new. When it comes to defending Apple, you'll argue against anything.


RE: Innovation
By c4v3man on 8/1/2012 11:31:04 AM , Rating: 2
2007: iPhone
Windows Mobile devices were just as capable, or even more so at the time of the iPhone's introduction.

2008: AppStore, annual iOS update, MacBook Air, multitouch MacBooks
The AppStore was somewhat innovative in that it was platform wide. The MacBook air wasn't all that innovative compared to other thing and light designs, especially if you look at comparable designs from Sony. Standardizing Multitouch on laptops was evolutionary, but a good step.

2010: iPad, Retina iPhone
The iPad again took an existing technology, and made it marketable. The primary way in which this was done was by using smartphone components, making a long lasting, large screened smartphone. It was the first to introduce this concept in a commercially viable way, so I will concede that it was innovative. The Retina iPhone merely caught up with Windows Mobile and Android devices, which already had twice the resolution of the iPhone, and did so FAR before the introduction of the marketing term "retina". So not innovative in any way, whatsoever.

2011: Thunderbolt Display, Thunderbolt Macs
Yes, these were both somewhat innovating technologies from Intel. Intel did a great job rolling out/testing Thunderbolt on a small scale (anything MacOS typically is).

2012: Retina iPad, Retina MacBook Pro
These technologies are largely there for marketing purposes. It's not even natively accessible resolution in the case of the RMBP, and even many iPad apps are simply upscaled. It's proven that most people can't tell the difference between the screens, see demo's of people being shown the iPad2, being told it's a "new iPad", and reporting that it's a sharper, better display than their old iPad.

That being said, Apple isn't all bad . Their push for higher resolutions on the desktop/laptop (not smartphone, which was pushed by other vendors) is commendable, and should have started years ago. Their update schedule is commendable, but their limited availability of features/flexibility is a problem. Not everyone wants a 3.5" screen. Some people want a keyboard. A 4" keyboard phone without updates is far more productive for some people than a 3.5" phone with updates. And most people don't care. Angry birds open on just about any version of Android, and for most people, that's all they care about.


RE: Innovation
By web2dot0 on 7/31/2012 2:24:19 PM , Rating: 2
What the hell are you talking about?

Retina Display is a big deal.

When iPad and iPhone first came out, they are innovators. What other companies are "innovating", according to your absurd standards?

Year after year? iPad came out like 2years ago. iPhone came out like 3-4years ago. You make it sound like iPhone came out in 2000.

Every big quantum leap take a while for it to boil. Grinding out features that the market isn't ready for is a disaster in the making. Technology innovator for the sake of technology is what geeks do. Incrementalism is what the market needs right now. Once the technology is well understood and widespread, then Apple can innovate again.

High Speed internet was avail for a decade now. How long did it take for the masses to acquire that technology? So once it's avail, you should ramp it up to 100mbps? You need a USE CASE.

I have a 7mbps DSL line at home, and I can watch all the Netflix I want at 720p, download fast enough so that I only need to wait <10mins to get a 100MB file from the web. It's not the best, but it does the job. Would I like a 100mbps connection? Sure, but I sure as hell wouldn't pay a premium nor would I get better quality videos because no website is gonna stream BR video to your computer (unless they are really stupid).


RE: Innovation
By StevoLincolnite on 7/31/2012 3:02:33 PM , Rating: 3
Retina display wasn't designed by Apple, they were the first to buy and use it though.

As for the iPad? It's like 4 iPods glued together, PLUS we had tablets which could do more but with a clumsier UI a decade ago... Yet people seem to make a big deal about the device, like it can cure cancer or something.

The iPad is far from innovative.


RE: Innovation
By testerguy on 7/31/2012 3:42:20 PM , Rating: 2
Being a smartphone manufacturer isn't about inventing or designing the individual components, eg CPU, GPU.

It's about who can put together the best combination of said components to create the best overall package. That requires innovation and technology in its own right.

Being the first to use the Retina display IS innovative - nobody else had managed to do it until that point.

By your logic, nothing any Android manufacturer has ever done has been innovative in any way at all because all of the technology existed.

Specifically on the retina display Apple selected LG, provided it with the necessary specifications and with that backing, LG was able to develop to Apples specifications. Much like in many other areas. So who 'designed' these parts isn't as clear cut as you make out anyway.


RE: Innovation
By Iaiken on 7/31/2012 3:03:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Retina Display is a big deal.


Except that it invented by LG and sold to Apple; fabricated by Samsung and LG. The same goes for Gorilla Glass (Corning), iPod (PortalPlayer), iTunes (Pixo) and Siri (Siri); Apple either contracted the owners to make it for them or purchased the owners outright. Nothing innovative to see here...

quote:
Year after year? iPad came out like 2years ago. iPhone came out like 3-4years ago. You make it sound like iPhone came out in 2000.


The speed things have been accelerating in the technology sector, 2008 is actually closer to 2000 than it is to 2012.


RE: Innovation
By TakinYourPoints on 7/31/2012 3:39:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Except that it invented by LG and sold to Apple; fabricated by Samsung and LG. The same goes for Gorilla Glass (Corning), iPod (PortalPlayer), iTunes (Pixo) and Siri (Siri); Apple either contracted the owners to make it for them or purchased the owners outright. Nothing innovative to see here...


Newsflash: Most technologies and components aren't created by the companies that sell products with them in it.

The important thing is that nobody else would have released the same sort of products, partly because they don't put the same emphasis on display and interface, and mostly because nobody else can buy such high end components in large enough quantities to keep prices at mainstream levels.

Who else could have released a HiDPI iPad for $500? Apple KNOWS they're going to sell a ton so they can get top-shelf components for less than others can, it is why they can make a profitable HiDPI iPad for $500. Other companies have a hard enough time releasing lower specced devices for about the same price, let alone one with HiDPI and the SoC needed to drive it.


RE: Innovation
By someguy123 on 7/31/2012 3:09:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Every big quantum leap take a while for it to boil. Grinding out features that the market isn't ready for is a disaster in the making. Technology innovator for the sake of technology is what geeks do. Incrementalism is what the market needs right now. Once the technology is well understood and widespread, then Apple can innovate again. High Speed internet was avail for a decade now. How long did it take for the masses to acquire that technology? So once it's avail, you should ramp it up to 100mbps? You need a USE CASE.


But you're basically describing apple's current means of "innovation". They're slapping on retina to devices like the ipad and macbook that are clearly not ready for super high resolution displays, and their performance suffers greatly at native resolution.

You look at their off-screen performance tests and the hardware is fine, but move to on-screen and they struggle against old hardware and are routinely forced to reduce resolution in most apps. Video standards aren't even at that resolution and require scaling. In terms of usefulness it may sharpen up text rendering, but overall this is pretty high performance cost for screens that are mostly limited to print/photography work, until hardware and video standards catch up.


RE: Innovation
By Ammohunt on 7/31/2012 4:07:29 PM , Rating: 2
iOS and OS X were innovations that allowed the incrementalism you described which led to some product worlds better than the competetion


RE: Innovation
By Karim Temple on 8/1/2012 12:13:08 AM , Rating: 2
Honest question: What smartphone innovation has there been since the iPhone? What, Android multitasking? That's not incremental? Bigger screens? Widgets (Apple invention btw)? Maybe Apple hasn't had any innovation since the first iPhone, but it seems like that still makes them the most innovative, doesn't it?


Apple, you are STILL doing it wrong.
By chick0n on 7/31/2012 4:55:06 PM , Rating: 2
You are wrong on every level.

You are not and never were an innovator.

Not about money? well, I'm pretty sure your share holders will say something else.

you are saying it wrong.




By Pirks on 7/31/2012 5:49:52 PM , Rating: 2
Apple is dooooomed!!! (C) Tony Swash


Tired discussion.
By ptmmac on 7/31/2012 8:14:34 PM , Rating: 1
Apple verses Android is getting really tiring. Android is currently in the lead and will continue to lead the bleeding edge unless Apple changes their business model. Apple's sucess has made it impossible for them to produce the latest spec phone. No one can produce 15 million phones a month and use the newest tech. There is always a ramp up needed to make phones in this volume.

As far as who is the best innovater, YVMV. Who cares? If you like the phone, buy it. Otherwise, it is just an opinion.

If you really think Apple is the devil because they are suing Samsung then you either were not paying attention when the Gallaxy I phone was introduced or you don't want to see it. All Android phones are not this similar to the iPhone. None that I know of use the same power charger, have the same boxing or have a skin that mimics the iPhone. If you really believe the world will end if Apple wins, or loses then you are a fanboi of one type or another. Android is not going away any more then, file sharing is going away. Innovation is not going to die. Justice,such as it is, is moving slowly. The market is moving faster. We will see if Apple can continue to innovate when the next generation iPhone comes out. Samsung is now innovating, which is an improvement. The Galaxy III is a good phone.

As far as the court case goes, Samsung deserves to get their bell rung, for a long time history of copying. Apple does not deserve to patent a rectangle. They should get recompense for he blatent copy made by the 1st Galaxy phone, and the damages should be tripled because Samsung destroyed evidence.




RE: Tired discussion.
By Cheesew1z69 on 7/31/2012 8:42:52 PM , Rating: 2
You are saying the Galaxy S uses the same type of charger as the iphone?


RE: Tired discussion.
By Azethoth on 7/31/2012 8:49:39 PM , Rating: 1
It is tiring, but if we didn't bitch about Apple vs Android then we would be bitching about left vs right, Republican vs Democrat, Liberal vs Conservative, Soccer vs American Football. People like binary choices. It's the choice we are most adept at making.

As for the underlying question here, people need to credit Apple for putting an innovative phone package together. Using PC standards to judge this is wrong. A PC plugs into the wall so you can judge it strictly on its wiz-bang performance and features. A phone needs to work, and it needs to work on a long battery life within a certain size and shape and weight. Comparing crazy new features that make your phone only last 2 hours is interesting but irrelevant.


Really?
By Totally on 7/31/2012 1:36:18 PM , Rating: 1
You sure fooled me. I wonder what the shareholders think?




RE: Really?
By Taft12 on 7/31/2012 1:50:47 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sure they think that Apple should keep doing what they're doing!


hey
By sprockkets on 7/31/2012 2:59:48 PM , Rating: 3
"We're not just doing this for money...

...we're doing this for a shitload of money!"




It's not about the money...
By BugblatterIII on 7/31/2012 7:52:54 PM , Rating: 3
...it's about world domination.

Apple is a control freak, as Jobs was.




Money Isn't Apple's Main Objective
By Tuor on 7/31/2012 3:33:53 PM , Rating: 2
It's their *only* objective.




Show me the money!!
By RicheemxX on 7/31/2012 6:26:17 PM , Rating: 2
Of course it's all about the money, if it really weren't we'd see Macs priced around PC levels, we'd see true hardware updates on the iPhone/iPad every 12-18 months instead of these minor incrementals. We'd see an open eco-system in the App-Store. We'd see them pushing to lower the cost of the tablet market, lower the cost of the smartphone market and lower costs all around.

Some of you might be to young to recall the old days of having entry level PCs cost as much as your cars. What got those prices down was competition. What is Apple doing now, trying to force out that competition which will allow them to either keep prices high or even inflate prices to gain more profits.

How do you think they can sell the iPad at slime margin? They know with their closed eco-system they'll make all their money back on the long tail.

NOT ABOUT THE MONEY, GIVE ME A BREAK!!




So to sum up...
By Tony Swash on 8/1/12, Rating: 0
RE: So to sum up...
By retrospooty on 8/1/2012 4:46:26 PM , Rating: 2
What a strange world you must live in...


By WinstonSmith on 8/1/2012 1:31:43 PM , Rating: 2
OK, then move all Apple hardware manufacturing back to the US.




By noirsoft on 8/3/2012 6:16:55 AM , Rating: 2
We just want to make sure that nobody else can make money without us in on the deal.




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