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Print 105 comment(s) - last by Tom mc3s.. on Jul 22 at 12:53 AM


  (Source: Reuters)

Gartner says Apple flounder in Q2 2009, but managed slight growth, despite losing ground to fifth place Toshiba.  (Source: Gartner/ArsTechnica)

IDC, meanwhile, says Apple slipped to fifth place, behind Toshiba. Both estimates paint Acer as the biggest winner, growing its marketshare over 50 percent on a year to year basis.  (Source: IDC/ArsTechnica)
No matter how you cut it, Q2 2009 wasn't great for Apple's sales

Apple has been facing a serious challenge to its energetic growth for the first time in several years.  First the recession sent consumers running from its pricey products.  Then a reinvigorated Microsoft launched an ad campaign, further cementing the price difference in consumers' minds, leaving Apple begging for them to relent.

Now the major firms are announcing their sales predictions for Apple's Q2 2009, and no matter how you cut it, sales are starting to cool for the company.

Despite the launch of new 13" and 15" MacBook Pros priced $200 below their predecessors and its October price cut of its entry level MacBook to $999, Apple failed to gain traction in the second quarter of 2009.  According to market research firm Gartner, it recovered with a mere 0.3 percent gain in shipments market share, clinging to fourth place.  Meanwhile Toshiba, in fifth place, charged ahead with a 1.3 percent market share gain. 

Acer showed an incredible 6.2 percent rise in market share, thanks to the popularity of its netbooks, as it moves to challenge HP and Dell for the top spot.  Dell saw a drop, but remains just a hair ahead of rival HP in U.S. shipments, says Gartner.

IDC paints an even worse picture for Apple.  According to IDC, another market research firm, Apple slipped to fifth, losing 0.9 percent of the market -- a 12.4 percent drop.  Meanwhile, Toshiba gained 2.1 percent, according to the IDC, putting it just at 7.7 percent of the market, just ahead of Apple's 7.6 percent. 

IDC also put Dell ahead of HP, while showing similar trends to Gartner -- a Dell decline and an HP rise.  According to IDC, Acer posted more moderate, but sizeable gain of 4.5 percent of the market.

Most of the charts are familiar territory -- HP and Dell have long sparred for the top spot.  However, the two key sales happenings in Q2 2009 appear to be Acer's continued rise to dominance, and Apple's unexpected slide downwards.

IDC analyst Bob O'Donnell comments on Apple's unceremonious fall, stating, "Apple's cheapest notebook is $999, and most of the market is focused on products that are below $999 -- in the $700 to $800 range.  Apple doesn't play in that market.  A lot of people are perfectly content with less-capable machines, because they are good enough."



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Could it be that...
By Motoman on 7/17/2009 10:17:52 AM , Rating: 5
...consumers are finally realizing that Apple products are wildly overpriced fashion statements that don't allow you to use the vast majority of all applications in the world, that they are 99% hype and posturing and 1% substance, that Apple has been fleecing the market for decades with their reassuringly-expensive shiny objects, and now are finally starting to buy more reasonably-priced, more-useful PCs instead?

Nah. Can't be. I have no faith that consumers have that much sense in their heads.




RE: Could it be that...
By rdeegvainl on 7/17/2009 10:23:09 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Nah. Can't be. I have no faith that consumers have that much sense in their heads.


You're right, people are still trying to buy them, but are having a hard time to getting the financing!!!


RE: Could it be that...
By dsx724 on 7/17/2009 10:25:35 AM , Rating: 4
Can I get a 36 month no interest mortgage with that?


RE: Could it be that...
By jackedupandgoodtogo on 7/17/2009 1:05:53 PM , Rating: 4
Only if you can prove you're a convicted felon with no work history.


RE: Could it be that...
By tviceman on 7/17/2009 1:47:02 PM , Rating: 5
And you've filed for bankruptcy within the past 3 years.


RE: Could it be that...
By jackedupandgoodtogo on 7/17/2009 2:26:13 PM , Rating: 1
At least twice.


RE: Could it be that...
By Fiendish on 7/18/2009 6:14:02 AM , Rating: 3
That sounds like the type of "loan" the government specializes in.


RE: Could it be that...
By Expunge on 7/18/2009 10:19:16 AM , Rating: 5
Yeah,, it is called a NINJA loan.

No
Income
No
Job
APPROVED

Sad thing is I am not making this up.


RE: Could it be that...
By dsx724 on 7/17/2009 10:23:27 AM , Rating: 4
Why can't we all just get along?


RE: Could it be that...
By callmeroy on 7/17/2009 10:26:02 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Why can't we all just get along?


Where's the fun in that? :)


RE: Could it be that...
By Boze on 7/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Could it be that...
By aj28 on 7/18/2009 1:58:58 AM , Rating: 5
Sounds to me like you don't want to get along, you just want everyone to agree with you and your views on the way a computer ought to be built.


RE: Could it be that...
By WinstonSmith on 7/17/2009 10:30:17 AM , Rating: 5
I think you're correct. In hard times, fewer people can afford fashion statements.


RE: Could it be that...
By WinstonSmith on 7/17/2009 10:45:24 AM , Rating: 3
"We don't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk." -- Apple CEO Steve Jobs

Should read:

"We don't know how to make a computer with less than a $500 mark-up that's not a piece of junk."



RE: Could it be that...
By MonkeyPaw on 7/17/2009 5:59:31 PM , Rating: 2
Yet when people put OSX on their netbooks, it works just fine. ;)


RE: Could it be that...
By WinstonSmith on 7/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Could it be that...
By MrDiSante on 7/17/2009 10:50:48 AM , Rating: 4
I'm assuming this quarter's sales are the reason they tried to get Turner to take down the Laptop Hunter ads. You know what they say about throwing stones if you live in a glass house.


RE: Could it be that...
By omnicronx on 7/17/2009 10:51:43 AM , Rating: 2
This article is terribly misleading, yes Apples sales have taken a hit, but not as badly as PC sales. Furthermore the entire article very bias imo. Every single number Mick used was from IDC(Acer gains, Apple losses, Toshiba gains), you have two sources, why not post the numbers for both, don't just claim IDC's numbers to be true. (especially when you post the graphs for all of us to see).

I thought Apple's sales would greatly decrease during the economy and that does not seem to be the case. In fact considering they are a high margin product, it is amazing they are selling so well under these conditions. Once the economy rebounds there is no reason to believe their sales will not rebound too. I would also like to point out that Q3 results will probably even things out as you will see the full effect of Apples hardware refresh. I know a few friends offhand who were waiting for the new Mac's before making their purchase.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no Apple fan, but what Apple has done during these times is pretty impressive.


RE: Could it be that...
By KWRussell on 7/17/2009 11:01:07 AM , Rating: 5
Dell just took a beating, but Dell doesn't bring the page views that a good ol' fashioned Mac/PC commenter flame war does. I guess that's why they chose that picture of Steve Jobs: Steve is demonstrating the twisted reporting Jason needed to turn this against Apple, because bashing Apple pays the bills.


RE: Could it be that...
By omnicronx on 7/17/2009 11:09:31 AM , Rating: 4
Well at least someone else sees it. What Mick did in this article is the definition of bias.

Sorry Mick, I think your articles are usually well rounded (you post for both sides), but this is just blatent. I can't say I've ever seen such a bias article in which the author posts a graph which completely disputes his findings. Not to mention I saw these graphs on many other sites yesterday with completely different titles.

This is a perfect example of what you title should have been.
'Apple market share up or down depending on who you ask'

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/07/apple-ma...


RE: Could it be that...
By Danger D on 7/17/2009 11:33:23 AM , Rating: 2
Don't be too hard on him, at least he provided more information so that we could see this. Many would have just posted the graph that favored their opinion.


RE: Could it be that...
By 67STANG on 7/17/2009 11:03:22 AM , Rating: 4
Don't bet on it. I know at least 15 people that currently use G5's and are waiting to buying PC's with Windows 7 when they come out. A lot of "Mac people" bought Macs because of the bad press and misinformation that was attached to Vista-- that stigma does not come with Windows 7.

Let's be honest, their cheapest notebook has a 13" screen and is still $1,000. No matter the economy, people always want to save money.


RE: Could it be that...
By Yaron on 7/17/2009 11:41:48 AM , Rating: 4
I don't know 67STANG, but I am one of those G5 guys he is talking about.
Have a G5, want a new Mac Pro but am not willing to pay the insane price... (infuriates me each time I think of it).

Windows 7 is looking *very* good - but I love Mac OS X. So what I'm going to do is build me an OS X compatible machine, stick an X-EFI device into it (www.efi-x.com) and have both OS X and Windows 7 in dual boot for less than half the price of the Mac Pro apple offers.

The truth? most of apple's hardware is just not worth the price anymore.


RE: Could it be that...
By sxr7171 on 7/18/09, Rating: 0
RE: Could it be that...
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/17/2009 11:07:46 AM , Rating: 5
Maybe you didn't read paragraphs three and four?

quote:

Despite the launch of new 13" and 15" MacBook Pros priced $200 below their predecessors and its October price cut of its entry level MacBook to $999, Apple failed to gain traction in the second quarter of 2009. According to market research firm Gartner, it recovered with a mere 0.3 percent gain in shipments market share, clinging to fourth place. Meanwhile Toshiba, in fifth place, charged ahead with a 1.3 percent market share gain.

Acer showed an incredible 6.2 percent rise in market share, thanks to the popularity of its netbooks, as it moves to challenge HP and Dell for the top spot. Dell saw a drop, but remains just a hair ahead of rival HP in U.S. shipments, says Gartner.


Also I posted a graph for both. I don't see what more you can want...

quote:
I know a few friends offhand who were waiting for the new Mac's before making their purchase.


And I know a few people that were considering Macs but now no longer are. At least one of my friends was unimpressed by the fact that they essentially cut nothing off the price as their $200 price cut was largely due to the cheaper processor on the base level. Also, after taking Windows 7 for a ride, they're no longer as enamoured with OS X.

Sure from a business standpoint Apple has shown some impressive successes with its iPods and iPhones, but in the computer market it has continually shot itself in the foot with pricing and by disallowing third parties to build OS X boxes.


RE: Could it be that...
By omnicronx on 7/17/2009 11:57:15 AM , Rating: 2
Then why the title? Any way you put it, the title does not reflect the result of both sources.

I am sorry if I am coming off strong, and I know you take the heat anytime you mention anything even remotely good about Apple, but the fact remains that your title and subsequently your article is misleading. You even went as far to say that they 'May have dropped to fifth', why not convey the same thing in the first line of the title? You know damn well that the reason you wrote it in that way is because your sources contradict each other.

As I said, I usually enjoy your writing, but I just finished reading an article on the same subject before I saw yours, which from my point of view was unbiased and presented all the facts to let you decide for yourself.

Lines like this:
quote:
No matter how you cut it, Q2 2009 wasn't great for Apple's sales
Do not exactly convey the results of both sides now does it?


RE: Could it be that...
By KWRussell on 7/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Could it be that...
By Tegeril on 7/17/2009 3:53:11 PM , Rating: 2
http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/0...

This is what an unbiased article looks like using the same sources.


RE: Could it be that...
By crystal clear on 7/18/2009 6:42:14 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
but in the computer market it has continually shot itself in the foot with pricing and by disallowing third parties to build OS X boxes


You contradict yourself now- remember those articles not long ago.

Macs Sales Growing Much Faster Than PCs

Maine Orders 64,000 Apple Laptops for Students

And more such articles.


RE: Could it be that...
By omgwtf8888 on 7/17/09, Rating: 0
RE: Could it be that...
By Sazar on 7/17/2009 12:03:51 PM , Rating: 2
I somewhat agree. To look at it from a different perspective, this is unit sales and given the larger numbers of Netbooks shipping, I am not sure that looking at things strictly from a unit-sales perspective will give any kind of inkling on the overall performance of a company.

Acer and Asus for example SHOULD see huge increases in unit share as they have been churning out netbooks. Apple has stayed with it's model, HP and Dell are smaller players and as a result will likely see smaller unit growth. They were also much later to the netbook market than Acer and Asus.

So to sum up, yes, bad news in terms of UNIT sales but, please do not over-emphasize the sales of netbooks (with margins in single-digits much of the time) v/s sales of full-fledged notebooks that Apple, Dell, Toshiba and HP get out there.

Those units typically earn double-digit margins and are one of the reasons why the balance sheets of the big-boys look so much better than the Acer's of the world.

Btw, I know that desktop sales are factored in but as a whole, unit shipments of notebooks/netbooks are larger than desktops and have increased the most year on year.


RE: Could it be that...
By AndMatt on 7/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Could it be that...
By 67STANG on 7/17/2009 11:31:49 AM , Rating: 5
1976.


RE: Could it be that...
By Motoman on 7/17/2009 12:01:27 PM , Rating: 3
...maybe 1984. But either way...

Apple did indeed effectively start the home computer industry...Altair et al notwithstanding. But they lost control of it pretty much right away to IBM followed by Kaypro and then *boom* - Apple was a footnote.


RE: Could it be that...
By Motoman on 7/17/2009 12:06:19 PM , Rating: 3
...in fact, in the interest of full disclosure, the first programming class I ever took (and effectively the first exposure I had to computers), was in 5th grade when I took after-school classes learning Apple BASIC on the IIe. At the time, it really didn't even dawn on me that the IBM in the corner of the classroom that no one ever used would someday boot the Apples right out of the school...


RE: Could it be that...
By Solandri on 7/17/2009 2:31:37 PM , Rating: 2
They did not "lose" the home computer industry to IBM. The IBM PC was marketed as a business machine, and as expensive if not moreso than the Apple II when it first came out. But the IBM PC was based on an open hardware architecture. As soon as someone (Compaq I think?) cloned IBM's BIOS, the floodgates opened to PC clones which drove their price down into the dirt.

IBM maintained the high prices on their hardware, thereby ceding most of the market to Compaq, Kaypro, and the other PC compatibles. If anything, IBM pretty much died at the same time as Apple lost the home computer market (IBM had been the #1 supplier of typewriters, mainframes, and office machines prior to then). It wasn't until the mid-90s when IBM refocused as a service company instead of a hardware company that they started turning around.


RE: Could it be that...
By Motoman on 7/18/2009 11:35:10 AM , Rating: 4
...you know what I meant. The Apple home computer market was completely supplanted by the IBM-compatible market...as I noted, led by Kaypro and others.

The point being that Apple did indeed lose the market. They've been completely marginalized since the mid-80s.


RE: Could it be that...
By atlmann10 on 7/19/2009 11:59:28 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, this is very factual. IBM and Apple both were, and apple still is proprietary, although they have gotten less so in some ways the last couple of years.

IBM used to use there own operating system as well, and there hardware was for there operating system alone. If you remember there was DOS, and PCDOS. The first in my sentence DOS is of course Microsoft, PCDOS is IBM, and there GUI was OS/2 (Initially IBM and Microsoft, then IBM alone).

I believe that is why Apple sticks to there guns in a lot of ways. That is also why they don't change tactics and let other companies make Apple PC's. That would basically be shooting themselves in the head. So Apple has no competition which is also the only reason there still a profitable company. At least on the computer side of things.

I believe IBM was and still is also a large part of UNIX (not Linux mind you but the original OS that became Linux). I also remember when IBM used to run there own PC's with PCDOS based Windows 3.11 and then 95. I used to hate working on the IBM units. Either way this is also why Apple ca do nothing but sue independent distributors when they try to make apples.

If they did let other companies make Apple compatible PC's what would they truly have as there own? I also remember my moms Apple IIE, and even my friends G1. Apple used to use a RISC processor as a CPU, which was in some ways and still is similar to Intel CPU's. A Risc CPU basically operates as 2 separate CPU's even though it is really a singular unit. This is why many INTEL CPU's will have 2 or 4 cpu units but, but behave like 4 or 8 and in Intel Lingo is known as Hyper-threading.



RE: Could it be that...
By brybir on 7/17/2009 11:59:38 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe just 99% of decent PC games not made by Blizzard....


RE: Could it be that...
By biggsjm on 7/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Could it be that...
By Motoman on 7/17/2009 12:34:40 PM , Rating: 4
Here's a brilliant argument...go and spend $500 more on a computer than you should, because it's an Apple. Then, go and buy a Windows OS for, what, $200 on top of that, so you can install it for dual-boot on your Apple. Now you're $700 in the hole to be able to run Windows apps.

What a genius you are! I am going to go and do that right now.


RE: Could it be that...
By retrospooty on 7/18/2009 10:10:42 AM , Rating: 1
"Here's a brilliant argument...go and spend $500 more on a computer than you should, because it's an Apple. Then, go and buy a Windows OS for, what, $200 on top of that, so you can install it for dual-boot on your Apple. Now you're $700 in the hole to be able to run Windows apps.

What a genius you are! I am going to go and do that right now."

LOL -so true +1 !!!


RE: Could it be that...
By rwpritchett on 7/17/2009 2:21:10 PM , Rating: 2
That's funny... I've been running Handbrake on my Windows based PC's for years. So yes, an HP can run Handbrake too.


RE: Could it be that...
By Dennis Travis on 7/17/2009 3:37:51 PM , Rating: 1
Sorry but Handbrake has been available on Windows now for maybe a year or more!


RE: Could it be that...
By rockyct on 7/17/2009 5:25:48 PM , Rating: 1
"Not sure what you mean. Apple computers can run more software than Dell, HP, or Acer PCs.

Apple Computers can run Windows, OS X, Linux, in addition to a few other OSes.

Is your HP able to run Tweetie? How about Handbrake? No? But what? What is this?"

buwhahahahaha <gasp> you can't be serious? You think apple computers run more software...and you're suggesting that a twitter client is an important factor in the decision of what computer to buy. At least you could have mentioned Final Cut.


RE: Could it be that...
By MrBowmore on 7/17/2009 8:10:03 PM , Rating: 2
Try to overclock your over expensive mac and come back with the results. Im writing this from a 9450, 12MB L2, 2.67 GHz Quad, raised to 3.2 GHz (witch btw would have costed me a nice 700$ more in stock speed....)
Sucker


RE: Could it be that...
By sxr7171 on 7/18/2009 9:27:58 AM , Rating: 2
Oh yeah let's support artificial blocking of MacOSX on regular PCs. PCs which offer much more choice in hardware design and needs. To make an argument based on protectionist policies makes you a protectionist and nobody likes that.


RE: Could it be that...
By BlendMe on 7/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Could it be that...
By Lennie22 on 7/19/2009 2:57:26 AM , Rating: 2
I got an HP for $550: 16inch, 3gb ram, 320gb HDD, hdmi, cam, 2ghz dual core, 5 in 1, lightscribe, full keyboard which is sweat to type on with number pad. the build quality is good, I have no problems. and I can tell you that this laptop is not a piece of junk or even close to it.


RE: Could it be that...
By BlendMe on 7/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Could it be that...
By peterSK on 7/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Could it be that...
By lagomorpha on 7/17/2009 11:28:45 PM , Rating: 2
"...consumers are finally realizing that Apple products are wildly overpriced fashion statements that don't allow you to use the vast majority of all applications in the world, that they are 99% hype and posturing and 1% substance, that Apple has been fleecing the market for decades with their reassuringly-expensive shiny objects, and now are finally starting to buy more reasonably-priced, more-useful PCs instead?"

Well Harley Davidson earnings are down 91% as well...


RE: Could it be that...
By Motoman on 7/17/2009 11:58:19 PM , Rating: 4
No argument from me there. Come to think of it, as a life-long motorcycle rider and racer, with over 30 years of motorcycling experience and a Life membership to the American Motorcyclist Association, I have no problem at all lumping H-D into the same category as Apple. Well done.


RE: Could it be that...
By superflex on 7/20/2009 3:04:06 PM , Rating: 2
Don't forget Bose and Monster Cable.
Products of the Sheeple.


Odd Comment
By brybir on 7/17/2009 12:09:28 PM , Rating: 3
Anyone else notice this comment:

"Apple's cheapest notebook is $999, and most of the market is focused on products that are below $999 -- in the $700 to $800 range. Apple doesn't play in that market. A lot of people are perfectly content with less-capable machines, because they are good enough."

So what can the $999 Macbook do that a $700 HP can't do? My understanding is that the hardware is essentially the same (intel CPU's, standard mem types, etc). In any event the HP is just as capable as the Mac, although we car argue which computer does what particular things better.




RE: Odd Comment
By 67STANG on 7/17/2009 12:27:03 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
So what can the $999 Macbook do that a $700 HP can't do?

It can charge $300 more for a much smaller display.


RE: Odd Comment
By adiposity on 7/17/2009 12:55:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So what can the $999 Macbook do that a $700 HP can't do? My understanding is that the hardware is essentially the same (intel CPU's, standard mem types, etc). In any event the HP is just as capable as the Mac, although we car argue which computer does what particular things better.


Nothing that you care about...but obviously it can run OS X. That's worth a lot to someone who is familiar with that OS and its programs.

I've been a PC user all my life, but it's not that hard to understand why people who use Macs would want to keep using them. Familiarity, loyalty, aesthetics, etc. The magnetic battery connector isn't bad, either.

These people have the money, and they want to buy a Mac. If you don't, that's cool...but why do you have to hate on them? They are just buying what they want. It's like you have a chip on your shoulder or something.

-Dan


RE: Odd Comment
By Motoman on 7/17/2009 1:07:27 PM , Rating: 2
I don't see anything wrong with taking issue with people wasting money and getting fleeced by marketing hype.


RE: Odd Comment
By adiposity on 7/17/2009 1:18:19 PM , Rating: 2
You might assume it's hype, however most of the Mac users I know have been Mac users for over 10 years (i.e., before the hype). I have run into the idiots who suddenly want to switch to Mac because it's cool, and then don't know how to use OS X. Yes, that's dumb, but not all Mac users are like that.

In a lot of cases, though, they people end up being more comfortable on the Mac, because it is (or feels) a lot simpler. If the Mac offers them an experience they can't get with HP, who am I to argue with their choice?

-Dan


RE: Odd Comment
By Motoman on 7/17/2009 1:47:55 PM , Rating: 3
...Apple hype started well before 1999.

There's nothing easier or simpler about a Mac - that's all just the hype. It's essentially a psychology experiment...if you tell people that Macs are easier to use, even if they never use one they'll start to believe that Macs are easier to use. The entire Apple phenomenon is a textbook study of the power of marketing...


RE: Odd Comment
By Solandri on 7/17/2009 2:20:46 PM , Rating: 2
Back in the 1980s when Apple introduced the Macintosh, they really were easier to use. It forced the PC world to be dragged kicking and screaming into the GUI era (with casualties like Lotus and WordPerfect along the way). Took almost a decade before Windows caught up to MacOS in terms of usability. I'm a Unix guru so I have no problems with a command line interface. But for my parents? GUI all the way.

But now, yeah, Apple is mostly about marketing.


RE: Odd Comment
By Motoman on 7/17/2009 5:28:09 PM , Rating: 2
Amiga Workbench FTW.


RE: Odd Comment
By BrianMCan on 7/17/2009 6:40:03 PM , Rating: 2
I saved over $1,000 from a comparable Xeon workstation from Dell or HP when I purchased my MacPro in 2006, and have saved many hours of my time in having a system that just works, and keeps working (although I could achieve this OS reliability with linux as well, but would be more limited in the types of programs I frequently do run)


RE: Odd Comment
By damianrobertjones on 7/18/2009 6:14:23 AM , Rating: 2
You can also achieve os reliability with windows. Windows just works as well. There are hardware and software problems with macs as well as pcs and your comment above seems to imply that a MacPro works better than other systems. False.


RE: Odd Comment
By BrianMCan on 7/20/2009 12:00:22 PM , Rating: 2
sure there are sometimes problems, but with Mac OS X they tend to be less severe, and easier to solve. (I do support Macs and Windows systems professionally)

How many times have you had to re-install windows to solve a problem?

On all the macs I've ever done support on, (other than major hard drive failure) I've only had to do a re-install of the OS about 15 times on thousands of macs in the past 14 years.

Apple phone support suggests it far too often because it is a "quick fix" while in most cases with direct access to the Mac the problem can be traced and solved quickly. I average about an hour for solving software issues.

Fact: I have had less issues with my MacPro than anyone I know or work with using Windows. (I have had a couple more issues than those I know with Macs... mostly because my X1900 video card had a slow death, all issues resolved when it was replaced with an NVIDIA GeForce 8800, this never affected work, but I did have a couple of freezes while gaming before I traced the problem to the X1900
)
is it the case for every windows system? no, I'm sure there are a few people out there who never have any issues, I've just never met them. I have met people who said everything is fine, while the system is horribly slow and displaying error messages when they go to do certain things. "oh that, I just ignore that, it does what I need it to" A few hours later with a bunch of spyware removed, and a ram upgrade, they are stunned at the difference.


RE: Odd Comment
By brybir on 7/17/2009 4:09:09 PM , Rating: 2
Thats a pretty snarky comment given the rather middle of the road nature of my comment.

To say that "Nothing that you care about" is reading A LOT into my comment that is not there. You have no idea what I care about, what I do for a living and my comment does not indicate what I care about one way or the other.

And where did I "hate" on anybody in my post? I correctly pointed out that from the hardware side each computer is equally capable, being as they use almost all of the same parts from the same suppliers. Then I pointed out that their is a lot of room for debate as to whether in an individual instance a Mac or PC is a better choice. Again, a true statement. If I am a gamer, the Mac is probably a bad choice for me, as its capabilities are severly limited by OS X. If I am a graphics designer the Mac is probably the better choice as it has several elements that appeal and benefit those types of users.

And without this rambling on, I am fully supportive of Apple and their products. More competition is in my mind a VERY good thing as it forces everyone competing for the same pool of dollars to actually and truely innovate in whatever form that innovation takes place. That is never a bad thing as far as I am concerned. So, I hope Apple keep on suceeding as it benefits everyone whether you like their company/products or not.


RE: Odd Comment
By adiposity on 7/17/2009 4:58:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
To say that "Nothing that you care about" is reading A LOT into my comment that is not there. You have no idea what I care about, what I do for a living and my comment does not indicate what I care about one way or the other.


What I meant was, the Apple doesn't do anything special except run OS X (and associated apps). If you are seriously comparing an HP to an Apple and wondering what advantages exist for each, my assumption is that you don't particularly care to run OS X. Otherwise, you wouldn't be asking the question--you'd be using a Mac.

Since the Mac doesn't really have any special advantage besides being able to run a certain OS (and I assume you already knew this), I think it's a safe assumption that you don't care about that feature particularly.

So, DO you care? Or was I right? Are there any significant features the Mac has that you care about?

-Dan


RE: Odd Comment
By adiposity on 7/17/2009 4:59:28 PM , Rating: 2
As for "hating on" someone, my mistake, I was thinking of another comment I read on here (they all blur together).

Sorry about that.

-Dan


Apple is arrogant
By holywarrior007 on 7/17/2009 11:38:26 AM , Rating: 5
In these times, when people don't want to buy computers, Apple has to do something out of the box. Apple has to provide something new that really makes people to think about buying a computer. They tried to do that in June, but I am afraid that wasn't enough. Besides that I really find it disappointing that you spend a good amount of money and you just can't get what you want from MBPs. I really want to buy a new MBP but I will have to wait until they start putting Blu-Ray in them. The thing which is extremely annoying is Steve Jobs telling you what to like and what not to like. Apple's hardware refresh also sometimes lags with the rest of the industry. Apple should listen to consumers otherwise they will definitely loose market.




RE: Apple is arrogant
By ExarKun333 on 7/17/2009 12:03:07 PM , Rating: 4
Apple sheeple need to be told what to like and not like. Do you really expect them to have to configure a PC on their own? Thats crazy talk.


RE: Apple is arrogant
By holywarrior007 on 7/17/09, Rating: 0
RE: Apple is arrogant
By KWRussell on 7/17/09, Rating: 0
RE: Apple is arrogant
By Motoman on 7/17/2009 1:17:47 PM , Rating: 3
No. Apple consumers have been sheeple for a very, very long time.


RE: Apple is arrogant
By KWRussell on 7/17/2009 2:25:31 PM , Rating: 2
Am I, now? Well, I guess you win. You called me names on the internet.


RE: Apple is arrogant
By Motoman on 7/17/2009 5:29:41 PM , Rating: 1
I didn't win anything. But you, my friend, have indeed lost. And I'm sorry to have heard about that.


The immediate future
By Oregonian2 on 7/17/2009 10:26:18 AM , Rating: 2
With netbooks being the "new craze", should it continue, it won't be good for Apple. An "Apple Netbook" is oxymoronic (must be small [ok], lightweight [ok], and very inexpensive [bzzzzzzzzzz]).




RE: The immediate future
By cabjf on 7/17/2009 10:40:12 AM , Rating: 2
Oh, expensive can work if they can show enough value added to the public, which seems to be their modus operandi anyhow. Needing to be inexpensive may have been the requirement last year and into this year, but I bet as the year rolls on, we'll see the economy gradually begin to grow again (or at least stop shrinking) and inexpensive will become less important.


RE: The immediate future
By Oregonian2 on 7/17/2009 4:00:37 PM , Rating: 2
Speaking in general terms, I agree. I certainly don't think they're on the edge of Chapter 11 again.

My only point is that they can't get into the NetBook craze because a very low price is part of the craze by definition. A high-priced netbook is essentially something that has long existed by many manufacturers -- and simply isn't a netbook.

Having an "Apple netbook" is like having a Lotus Econocar. Still not going to be in the same category as other manufacture's cars priced at $12k, no matter how good the Lotus Econocar is or how much it's of high perceived value per dollar. Simply can't be in the econocar category.


RE: The immediate future
By Nobleman00 on 7/17/2009 5:18:02 PM , Rating: 2
Apple has 2 netbooks, the iPhone and the iPod Touch. Frankly to browse the web cheap on the go, i'd rather have an itouch than a netbook.


RE: The immediate future
By Oregonian2 on 7/17/2009 9:49:15 PM , Rating: 3
Writing long emails or doing things like my wife wants to do on a netbook (.DOC text editing for instance), etc might be tough on a iPod Touch .

Keyboard and apps on a iPod Touch, although perhaps better than other things of similar size, aren't quite as useful as the nearly-full keyboards on a netbook and being able to run Windows apps.

For ONLY web browsing and email of texting length it's certainly nice because its certainly more portable for sure. But netbooks also are used for lightweight normal laptop uses -- despite being weak-CPU'd by current standards, they're as "powerful" as laptops were not all that long ago.

So, I think you're right that Apple does have something that for the same price as a netbook can do a tiny bit of what a netbook can do and that'll work for a portion of the marketplace that wants just that. Still not really what a "netbook" is (despite it's name).


Bad analysis & biased
By crystal clear on 7/18/2009 6:15:22 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
First the recession sent consumers running from its pricey products. Then a reinvigorated Microsoft launched an ad campaign, further cementing the price difference in consumers' minds, leaving Apple begging for them to relent.


I make these observations as somebody who uses/d the Wintel machines all along & prefer them-so nobody can accuse me of fanboysim.

Recession- yes it hit everybody - all the companies/brands & NOT only Apple.

Consumers(mainstream buyers) simply stopped buying ! any of the brands (not only Apple) at any price in US/EU markets-"dont buy if it works" is the attitude.

Consumer preference (mainstream) have changed, they prefer NETBOOKs so you see Netbook sales shoot up drastically & Notebboks/Desktops fall.

Consumers now want their 2nd or 3rd computer in their homes (just like TVs in homes) & they want a NETBOOK.

They dont easily replace their old computers with new ones rather upgrade them -if they are worth the money/effort if not continue using them till they work.

Apple does NOT sell NETBOOKS !
(did you know that ?)

Note-

Mainstream buyers bring in 90% of the revenues for any brand/company/OEMs etc.

Netbooks are much smaller or very mobile/portable/CHEAPER than Notebooks as their targeted use is for internet access/emails/twitters etc .

Then a reinvigorated Microsoft launched an ad campaign

Wrong analysis !

Microsoft ads dont impress the mainstream buyers as Win 7 is NOT YET released in the market,so they do NOT know whats is Win7 at all.

Right now its WinXp against Vista & NOT Apple against Microsoft.

Ever bothered to ask the mainstream buyers-

"Have you used the Win7 - will you buy it for your next or the currently used computer"

The answer is a big NO ! they prefer the tried/trusted Win XP.

They dont believe Microsoft after the VISTA experience...TRUST is feelings.

After the Vista pain they are more CAUTIOUS for another dirty surprise,they are NOT YET ready for Win7 yet.

They dont experiment with BETAS like people here so lack the knowledge/experience of Win7.

leaving Apple begging for them to relent.

Any evidence to PROVE IT....did you verify the facts or blindly believe/quote some Microsoft guy giving some lousy sales talk.

Did you verify with Apple if this TRUE !

The answer is NO evidence !

Bad analysis & misrepresentation of facts,rather biased.




RE: Bad analysis & biased
By crystal clear on 7/18/2009 7:31:21 AM , Rating: 2
At 5pm Eastern Time on Tuesday, July 21, Apple's team of executives will talk about the company's Mac, iPhone, and iPod sales, as well as how much bling is currently sitting in the bank.

So wait !


RE: Bad analysis & biased
By damianrobertjones on 7/20/2009 5:30:45 AM , Rating: 2
People will buy Windows 7 as the mass media and sheep will say, "Ohh, that Vista, it was pants.. but they've made up for it with Windows 7 which is great"

People are fickle and believe nearly anything. There was nothing wrong with Vista in the great scheme of things (People seem to forget the problems they had with Windows XP!)

People WILL buy WIndows 7. It's a certainty and you can feel that from the buzz on forums.


RE: Bad analysis & biased
By crystal clear on 7/20/2009 10:21:46 AM , Rating: 2
"Fasten your seatbelts; it's going to be a bumpy ride."


RE: Bad analysis & biased
By crystal clear on 7/20/2009 11:10:19 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
There was nothing wrong with Vista in the great scheme of things


Wakeup call-

Even microsoft admits Vista was a painful experience for the company


Apple was always overpriced...
By T2k on 7/17/2009 10:38:52 AM , Rating: 2
...and still IS, nevertheless people kept buying it.
Now we have a serious downturn in economy and people opt for saving money instead of buying flashy things. What's the news here?




By Integral9 on 7/20/2009 12:33:01 PM , Rating: 2
There's broken glass all over the streets as Apple's glass walls of promise are shattered by empty wallets.


By sapiens74 on 7/18/2009 3:26:17 PM , Rating: 2
Rate me down instead of disputing my posts

I can show in real numbers the PC priced with the NECESSARY software, just to have basic functions the EU will need, makes up for the difference.


By Motoman on 7/18/2009 7:12:57 PM , Rating: 2
OK, I'll bite...

quote:
1. AV, I don't care how many free AV products you claim work, the average consumer needs something from company like Symantec given the likelihood they will get some type of infection.


Wrong. AVG, Avast, and others not only work fine, but in actuality cause fewer problems than Symantec et al. Regardless, Mac users need AV too - lest they not follow Apple's own directives.

quote:
2. Windows needs better Movie and Picture software, it just plain doesn't work well together.


...what? I don't know what point you think you're making here at all. Besides, if you don't like the movie/picture apps that come with Windows, there are ridiculous amounts of nice free ones on the interweb.

quote:
3. Backup, backup backup. If you haven't used Time Machine, you don't know what you are missing. Windows needs a true backup software like Ghost which clones partitions. The Average consumer cannot reinstall the OS ,Apps, Drivers and restore their settings.


I have seen System Rstore work more than once. Also, whether you're a PC or Mac user, having a full disk/partition level backup handy is an exceedingly good idea. Expecially since there are really good backup/recovery utilities like Macrium available for free.

Besides, even if you went and *paid* for all those applications, you're nowhere near making up for the Apple tax. And whether you're in the EU or not, there are so many high-quality free applications of these types (and many more) available to everyone on the internet, that none of your points can possibly carry any weight at all, anyway.


Q2 Results
By hiscross on 7/21/2009 8:12:15 PM , Rating: 2
Well today's quarterly report says it all. Apple Rocks!!! Smart people who produce know how good their Apple products compared to that other stuff. Apple been taking crap from looters for so long it is nice to see them do so well. Apple is a producer and they deserve to sell their products at the price they are worth. Apple is all about free markets. Who Is John Galt?




RE: Q2 Results
By Tom mc3s on 7/22/2009 12:53:42 AM , Rating: 2
Nice Atlas Shrugged reference.

I agree, somewhat. I will say Apple had quite the quarter profit-wise. I haven't seen anything about market share for OSX but frankly I don't think Apple is shooting for a higher market share if it means more work for the same profit margin.


They'll change as they need to.
By gochichi on 7/19/2009 9:46:03 PM , Rating: 3
I just purchased a 13" MacBook Pro and it's been hands down the best experience with a computer purchase (including any Mac). So though the price was really reasonable for a "Pro line Mac" which doesn't say much... but I am saying that it was nearly half the price of the last MacBook Pro I purchased. They've finally gotten it right. Apple has been pretending to sell their current line-up for years. And now the machine is actually as advertised.

I mean just think, for years and years, a Mac "ran" Windows on top of Mac OS... it just did so MISERABLY through emulation. Now, it actually works. Same goes for so-called "workstation" performance on the go. And all of this nearing the $999 price point.

Apple has a customer base used to enjoying ridiculous resale value of their used computers. Not all Mac users care, but some of us are used to being able to sport a new Mac for a cost of about $300-500 per year. Which if you think about it, is very reasonable. My PC laptops depreciate the same dollar amount per year, but they cost half the price or less (and if I were spending $2+k on a PC laptop, I'd be experiencing plummeting values). So if you're like me and like to have fresh products (whether Mac or not) you're actually going to spend no more for Apple products. If you like high end products in addition to new products, Apple will be some of the cheapest because they hold their value well.

So when thinking about why Apple doesn't jump into the $500.00 segment, it's because they'd be screwing their high end user base in the process. They'd make more money for a couple of years, but eventually they'd loose many high end customers. Apple is easing into lower price points, because it's a smart business. Doing something abrupt to their asset would just be silly... silly for the user base, silly for their stock holders... and the final blow an industry that can't support innovation at the current prices.

Apple is very well positioned though. They haven't made any major revisions to their Mac Mini (wanna talk about "holding its value" you could easily sell a 2-year old Mac Mini for $150 below the purchase price). Also haven't done any major revisions to the white MacBook. The entry to the pro line went from $1999 to $1299... a major shift, and now if they can make that shift for the base products (which they will) it'll continue to thrive as a business.

They have the goods now, the current pricing is an R and D pricing... if they want to go into a stagnant mode... the way every other brand has been... then they can move to a stagnant pricing mode. The day is sad when innovation is coming via one company... and the haters out there want to have it so that there's just no innovation at all?

If you can look at the new MacBook Pros and not see the advancements in construction and manufacturing... well, you're pretty dense. The unibody deal... well, it didn't exist before.




Revenue numbers will be interesting
By Lonyo on 7/17/2009 11:28:25 AM , Rating: 2
Even if Apple did increase unit shipments slightly, it will be interesting to see what their revenue is like given the price cuts.
A minimal shipment increase combined with a slight price cut means that with flat or slightly higher sales they could still come out behind what they were previously.
If their sales did drop then that's pretty bad because it means it's likely their revenue will have dropped even more.

For everyone else revenue will also be going down due to ASP reduction, but usually with Apple given their flat pricing it was less likely that revenue would drop if sales didn't. Now they are joining the rest of the PC market.




"hardware refresh"
By ice456789 on 7/17/2009 12:08:54 PM , Rating: 2
Is that the new way of saying their hardware is only a year and a half behind now? Or maybe it's their way of saying they've added a new tier of even cheaper, lower end hardware just to get their price point below $1000.




'Good enough computing'
By Iaiken on 7/17/2009 3:36:18 PM , Rating: 2
It's a trend that has been on the rise since before the recession due to computational power increases reaching the point where the layman simply cannot notice the increase.

This has resulted in the customer focusing on price since many of them are simply looking to replace existing machines with those that are 'good enough' to do the things they already do, but for much less money.

This is a market sub-segment where Apple will always miss out and; if forecasts are to be believed, this segment is growing.

Think of it as people taking advantage of the other half of Moore's law and taking the cash dividend instead of the performance.

Look at the netbook craze... These systems are only as capable as systems from yesteryear, but they are smaller, cheaper and 'good enough'.




THIS IS BECAUSE OF WINSOWS 7!!!
By sapiens74 on 7/17/2009 8:33:38 PM , Rating: 2
Never before have so many Windows computers run so smoothly on a yet to be released Beta.

I mean you can pickup a Windows box for 300 bucks now and wipe it out and put all freeware on it and it runs circles around the Apple. Right?




Who can argue?
By JimboK29 on 7/17/2009 9:58:46 PM , Rating: 2
No one can argue that PC's are cheaper and during these tough times, it is a no brainer. Apple may learn from this.

Oh and I seen that Threatcore has this article linked to their main big story today.




By crystal clear on 7/18/2009 7:05:17 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
According to market research firm Gartner, it recovered with a mere 0.3 percent gain in shipments market share, clinging to fourth place.

According to IDC, another market research firm, Apple slipped to fifth, losing 0.9 percent of the market -- a 12.4 percent drop.



Can you believe these firms giving out some thrash statistics.

Do they have access to Apple's huge sales project of the types below-the answer is NO !

Maine would like to add an additional 57,000 MacBooks to the program, for a grand total of 100,000 notebooks, which will be leased for a period of four years and will go to all high schools and middle schools.

So, just what does it cost to lease 100,00 MacBooks?

The state would like to pay $242 per year for each MacBook, for a grand total of $25 million per year, or about twice what Maine is currently paying for 37,000 notebooks.

Apple will include educational software, professional development, repair and replacement and technical support, as part of the deal.

Kansas, Iowa, and Louisiana have all recently joined in the MacBook fun with Maine.



Apple sales from such similar types of projects in educational sector are NOT included by these firms putting out vague sales projections for a quarter.

You got to be naive to believe these companies.




I'll wait for tomorrow, thanks.
By Tom mc3s on 7/21/2009 2:03:57 AM , Rating: 2
IDC may be predicting a decline in Apple sales for the second quarter but Gartner predicts they are up from the previous quarter. Predictions are all well and good and all that jazz but I'll wait until tomorrow (Tuesday July 21st) after the closing bells on the market when Apple officially releases the Q2 numbers.




Dell, HP, etc...
By Nobleman00 on 7/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Dell, HP, etc...
By Regs on 7/18/2009 11:04:31 PM , Rating: 1
Learn how to configure your own for you own needs? Retailers though puff smoke up your butt, but self-education and awareness before a purchase goes a long way.


RE: Dell, HP, etc...
By Nobleman00 on 7/20/2009 4:16:43 PM , Rating: 2
Frankly, not everyone is interested in a computer to the point they will research and configure on their own. Why do you think Apple is able to sell to so many of these less-technical consumers? They are telling them "it just works" and they believe it. It is akin to Microsoft gaining market share with Windows 95 by telling people "look how easy this is."

Apple packages well-configured, controlled bundles. They don't have 20 different configurations to support each year. Reality is that Windows is a good OS, but sloppy hardware and applications have given it a bad reputation.


Nothing Beats buying a PC from Best Buy.. Right?
By sapiens74 on 7/17/09, Rating: -1
By Nobleman00 on 7/20/2009 4:23:53 PM , Rating: 1
Yes, Windows can play good games, it can also do a whole slew of other things a mac can't. That's why the mac answer to all that is "I can just run fusion or parallels and boot up Windows."

You would be a fool to run a mac without Anti-Virus as a mac is not immune.

Do I need to purchase additional software for backup? No, Windows has built in backup software if you choose to use it.

Video and Picture editing that is easy to use and works? Yup, Windows has that too.


"We shipped it on Saturday. Then on Sunday, we rested." -- Steve Jobs on the iPad launch














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