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Apple capture third place in retail PC sales

Apple Inc., once a bit player in the PC retail market, has been clawing its way up the retail ranks, thanks in part to strong consumer brand name reception.  DailyTech recently covered its gains in the notebook market, which it was last reported to be in seventh place in.  After passing Toshiba earlier this year and continuing strong growth, Apple has now cracked the top three, passing Acer for the first time to join Dell and HP among the retail elite.

Apple's Q2 2008, ending in June saw almost 1.4 million units in sales over the three month period, according to research firm Gartner.  The metrics reflected a rise of 38 percent over last year's shipments.  Dell and HP also saw more modest growth.  Dell grew 11.9 percent to retain a leading 5.25 million units shipped, while HP grew a modest 5.6 percent to arrive at 4.167 million units shipped.

Acer continued to struggle, with sales sinking more than 20 percent, aiding Apple's ascent.  Toshiba saw little change with only slightly over 2 percent growth, also working to Apple's advantage.

As a whole, U.S. PC shipments rose 4.2 percent over last year, despite a troubled economy.  In total 16.5 million units were shipped.

Mika Kitagawa, principal analyst for Gartner's Client Computing Markets group offered commentary on the changes.  He stated, "Dell continued to be the market leader with PC shipments accounting for 31.9 percent of the U.S. market in the second quarter of 2008.  Apple's PC shipments grew 38.1 percent in the quarter. The home PC segment continued to be the strongest driver for Apple, as well as sales into the education segment."

More conservative research business IDC placed Apple in a tie for third with Acer.  It showed Acer growing 49.9 percent, but pointed out this is only thanks to the merger with Gateway.  If both companies' marketshares were combined for last year’s metric, IDC says Gateway/Acer actually dropped nearly 28 percent in units shipped from last year.

Apple still has yet to crack the top five in global PC shipments, behind fifth place Toshiba, with 3.14 million units shipped in the quarter.  HP and Dell flip-flopped for the top spot.  While HP was second place locally in the U.S., it seized the top spot worldwide.

Worldwide shipments showed an impressive growth of 16 percent over last year.  Mr. Kitagawa wrote, "Mobile PCs continued to lead unit growth across all regions as the average selling price (ASP) of mobile PCs declined sharply relative to desk-based PC ASPs.  Economic uncertainties have hit PC revenues, resulting in steep ASP declines, especially in markets such as the United States and the Europe, Middle East, and Africa (EMEA) region."

Within the U.S., Apple continues to find a way to establish strong positions in new markets, such as the cell phone business, which boost its other business sectors by a "halo effect".  However, in the P.C. market, Apple is facing some image problems as it tries to crush Mac clone maker Psystar.

Apple maintains tight controls on its operating system and hardware, which some people like.  Apple CEO Steve Jobs bears an especially intense malice towards Mac cloners and has gone to great lengths to legally destroy them.  This and the tight controls some fans say is smart business, but many others have viewed the policies of late as increasingly dictatorial.  Nonetheless, Apple continues to eke its way to more marketshare in the U.S., though still a distant third behind Dell/HP.

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Uhh
By borismkv on 7/17/2008 2:34:25 PM , Rating: 5
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Apple is clawing its way away from the bottom. They're no where near the top. Toshiba had over 100% higher sales. Dell and HP, I'm sorry, did not have more modest sales increases. The actual numbers for Dell's increase over last year is 500,000 units. That is almost *equal* to Apple's increase if not greater. The rough result is that, guess what, Apple isn't really gaining any traction at all here.




RE: Uhh
By BansheeX on 7/17/2008 2:47:33 PM , Rating: 5
Not to mention the fact that it's disingenuous to compare Apple sale numbers to individual Windows OEMs rather than cumulative Windows PC sales. They don't get to claim third just because they don't have allow a bunch of third-parties to sell Apple hardware and break up their hardware sales numbers across a laundry list of OEMs.


RE: Uhh
By Icelight on 7/17/2008 3:05:47 PM , Rating: 5
But taking that in to account would not make for such a Micktastic article.


RE: Uhh
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/17/2008 4:16:27 PM , Rating: 1
I wouldn't call my statements disingenuous by stretch. Because people are so wont to to criticize any article that vaguely can be interpreted as pro Apple, I put in plenty of language to express EXACTLY what I'm trying to say.

For example, the closing paragraph, and closing sentence for that matter should be the part that most sticks in the mind of an avid reader who actually reads the whole article.

The closing sentence states:
quote:
Nonetheless, Apple continues to eke its way to more marketshare in the U.S., though still a distant third behind Dell/HP.


That leaves little ambiguity to the fact that Apple is far behind HP and Dell. And further I clearly say that a second source places it in a tie with Acer, though it would be easy to just say it passed Acer based on the Gartner metrics if I was interpreting the data in a biased fashion.

I don't own a Mac and don't know why some commenters seem to think I like Macs. Aside from aesthetic (visual) aspect of the design, which appeals to some, the only advantage I can see any Apple products having is that the Air is the thinnest notebook by some estimates (though others beat it in consistent thickness) and the iPod currently holds the title for the largest memory capacity (for the 160 GB model). For that reason I own an iPod, my one and only Apple product.

Past those justifications, seems to me you're buying a brand name, which isn't something I think is very smart or would do personally.

I won't deny I like competition. In any market. But I won't be going and buying a Mac myself anytime soon unless they were to do unlikely things like adopt competitive prices with Dell/HP and somehow adopt a gaming ready graphics API that would work with modern PC games. As neither of those seems likely to happen, I'm pretty unlikely to buy a Mac.

I think DailyTech is better than most tech sites as we do have highly savvy and critical readers ... so don't stop giving feedback.

BUT don't waste your time whining about how much I like Macs or how you wish me and my Mac didn't love Apple so much as you're just spewing nonsense. I've said this before, and people seem to get it ... for about 2 days. I don't make the news, I just report it.


RE: Uhh
By Pirks on 7/17/08, Rating: -1
RE: Uhh
By retrospooty on 7/17/2008 6:44:46 PM , Rating: 5
And the same is NEVER true in reverse is it? When anything posted negative about Apple you never whine about it do you?


RE: Uhh
By Pirks on 7/17/08, Rating: -1
RE: Uhh
By Pirks on 7/17/08, Rating: 0
RE: Uhh
By Pirks on 7/17/08, Rating: -1
RE: Uhh
By retrospooty on 7/17/2008 9:01:39 PM , Rating: 5
I dunno... No offense meant, but you do appear here in nearly every Apple article agresivly defending every Apple product on every issue raised. Anyone on the other side of your point would just as easily call you a "whiner" as you called them above. Notice when its against you, you say its about "lies" being spread about Apple, and when its about MS, its just the "whiners" ? I see a double standard here.

+ don't worry about typos, just get your point across. =)


RE: Uhh
By Pirks on 7/17/08, Rating: 0
RE: Uhh
By Pirks on 7/17/2008 9:59:51 PM , Rating: 1
Also, I have no idea why you associated whiners with MS. I mentioned two classes of disturbed Apple bashers here, whiners and liars (Reclaimer77 is a good example of a liar, and borismkv is a good example of a whiner), and both are related to Apple only. No "MS whiners" was mentioned by me, okay?

BTW if you wanna know an MS whiner, I know only one for now, and he's actually gone from this forum for a long long time. What was his nick? Comitpal I think... and he was also posting here under the second nick, BeenThere. Here you go, now I'm sure your "double standard" itch has totally gone, now isn't it? :-)


RE: Uhh
By retrospooty on 7/17/2008 10:37:16 PM , Rating: 2
Yup... and he also 3rd nick, cornfedone... but I wouldn't call him a whiner, he is somewhere between a troll and a raging psychopath LOL!


RE: Uhh
By mikefarinha on 7/17/2008 6:01:22 PM , Rating: 2
Mick,

I wouldn't take it too personally. It seems to have become a kind of expectation when you do an article about Apple. If you did an article with a bias against Apple I'm sure that people would still claim you're a closet Apple-lover and make snide remarks to that effect.

The way I see the problem is that Apple, Steve Jobs in particular, comes off as being uber-trendy, condescending, paternalistic, and holier-than-thou. Thus any one consecutively writing anything positive about Apple starts to partially take on this image.

Just my thought.


RE: Uhh
By MeTaedet on 7/17/2008 9:57:47 PM , Rating: 5
The news that you are "just reporting" concerns various companies not just Apple, so why is it that the body of the article and the headline are phrased in terms of Apple and its progress? Instead of writing an article apprising the reader of the markets position and share of various companies neutrally, favoring and highlighting no company over others, you've written an article comparing Apple and its well-being to other retailers and companies, which suggests that Apple is on the forefront of your thoughts and that the subject of the article is Apple even though there's no objective and sensible reason for that - and, to me at least, it suggests that you have some interest in promoting Apple's success, perhaps monetary.

And the headline! I'd like to bring particular focus to that: "Apple Claws Its Way Closer to the Top in Retail PC Sales "?! Firstly, it's a bit sensationalistic what with the word "claws"; has a very dramatic quality to it, but this is a minor complaint. Secondly, the headline implies for some readers, no doubt, that Apple will EVENTUALLY be at the top, or that you think so, but that it's currently progressing slowly due to fierce competition. This isn't a fitting or logical conclusion; there's little reason to believe that Apple will necessarily reach the top one day. More likely, imo, it will continue to languish, always remaining second or third best and finally go out of business - as all companies must do eventually - but that's neither here nor there. Anyways, do you not see the pro-Apple spin? Really?

And while it may very well be that you do not own apple products or even like apple products - I don't in fact have any trouble accepting that this is the case - that doesn't mean that you don't have something to gain by issuing panegyric of Apple and its products, no? I mean you are always writing stories that have a pro-apple quality to them, and likewise, stories that have an anti-Microsoft spin (it's really not the case that I like either Microsoft or Apple altogether very much, so please fail to return with your wonted and truly now platitudinous recriminations of Microsoft fanboyism); is it the case that you are instructed to write about Apple (each editor seems to constrain the scope of his writings, focusing on set of only a few topics) or do you have perfect freedom to write about whatever topic you like insofar as you meet your quota and ensure that the content of your articles is tech-related. If it's the former, perhaps I can see to not begrudging you the peculiarities of your writing and the fashion in which you transmit originally unbiased information to your readers, otherwise I'm afraid I'm going to have to label you a shill yet again.

/If I were an Apple employee with a bit of company money to throw around and were keen on increasing Apple market share, I would certainly take at least a bit of interest in paying an editor at a well-known tech site with a large, largely pro-Windows/Microsoft readership to write articles with a subtle Apple bias to them.


RE: Uhh
By Ryanman on 7/18/2008 2:51:17 AM , Rating: 2
why do we care if they bloggers do sensationalist headlines? I hate Micks' pro mac stuff to be honest, but I'd click on the article even if it wasn't ridiculous like this one. Do they gain anything from more views? Not really, I'd say.


RE: Uhh
By robinthakur on 7/18/2008 5:09:11 AM , Rating: 2
How awful! Sensationalistic headlines to try and persuade you to read an article? Whatever next! I like Jason Micks articles as I'm interested in reading Mac news. Whilst I'm not as keen on his writing style, why shouldn't mac's be represented here in an unbiased way? Its called Daily *Tech* and in terms of brand recognition largely thanks to the iPod/iPhone, Mac's will continue to grow substantially especially once all those kids whose parents bought them iPods are old enough to afford a Mac.

Its a good sign that Apple seem to have touched a nerve since their resurgence, it means that they are being incredibly succcessful and for whatever reason this makes some insecure people on post-back irate. How childish.


RE: Uhh
By robinthakur on 7/18/2008 12:15:03 PM , Rating: 2
Oh and by the way your opinion
quote:
More likely, imo, it will continue to languish, always remaining second or third best and finally go out of business
doesn't reflect reality as Apple is hardly languishing, it IS currently *booming*, whether you like it or not and is growing not shrinking.

I highly doubt Mick is in the pay of Apple, he's just reporting the story with Apple as the focus. I see nothing wrong with that. Did you not see the article by him on the iPhone launch which basically said that it was a shambolic disaster? Do you have an interest in attacking Apple, we might well wonder? How petty some people are. This is obvious when you use words like 'panegyric' and 'platitudinous' which far from coming across as underlining your intellect, indicates nothing else other than the fact that you might have something large lodged in your anus and as such would make an ideal future Redmond employee.


RE: Uhh
By DASQ on 7/17/2008 3:18:21 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly.

Pretty good attempt at skewing statistics.


RE: Uhh
By Polynikes on 7/17/2008 4:01:30 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, Apple's third in retail PC sales? Shit, I'm gonna go buy one!


RE: Uhh
By audiomaniaca on 7/18/2008 10:57:37 AM , Rating: 2
So do I! Please make sure there will be a macbook air left for me! iEnjoy limited connectivity and processing power for extra bucks.


RE: Uhh
By michael2k on 7/18/2008 12:50:55 PM , Rating: 2
No statistics were skewed. Apple is third (tied with Acer) in the US. Apple IS moving up, as well, since last year they were fourth/fifth, and their marketshare is higher than last year.

What is the skew?


RE: Uhh
By Pavelyoung on 7/20/2008 7:35:41 AM , Rating: 2
The skew is the fact that the report is based on Apple vs HP, Dell and the others. The truth is that it should be reported as simply Apple vs PC and the numbers presented as such.

When you look at it in that light the true story emerges and you see that Apple computer sales are simply ok. The sales aren't great and they aren't making any real progress in market share.


RE: Uhh
By spluurfg on 7/18/2008 6:43:49 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not to mention the fact that it's disingenuous to compare Apple sale numbers to individual Windows OEMs rather than cumulative Windows PC sales. They don't get to claim third just because they don't have allow a bunch of third-parties to sell Apple hardware and break up their hardware sales numbers across a laundry list of OEMs.


Well, we're talking about retail sales by PC manufacturers here, not breakdown by PC type. I think the picture would look even more positive for Apple if you looked at EBITDA margins for the PC departments. For the wider organization, EBITDA margins for Apple is something like 15%, versus about 7% for Dell, and EBITDA growth is also much higher for Apple. They sell higher margin products which are in general in a premium market segment. IMO 3rd place for retail sales is pretty impressive.

And no I don't own an Apple PC or notebook.


RE: Uhh
By JustTom on 7/18/2008 12:00:48 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
And no I don't own an Apple PC or notebook.


I have two problems with statements like this:

1. It is unverifiable. How could I possibly know if you, or Jason for that matter, do or do not own an Apple PC or notebook?

2. It is not even vaguely germane to your argument. You made really valid points on their being many differing ways to measure market success, whether you own a Mac really is immaterial.


RE: Uhh
By kelmon on 7/18/2008 7:16:35 AM , Rating: 2
Er, what? Dell compares itself to HP and the others, so why wouldn't Apple? We're looking at the performance of a manufacturer against others in the market. Lumping all the others together just distorts the statistics and makes them meaningless. If you want that sort of information, have a look at market share statistics.


RE: Uhh
By VooDooAddict on 7/18/2008 8:56:08 AM , Rating: 2
No really.

Those are two separate comparisons. This is a comparison of the hardware sales. Comparing the OS sales and market share is a different story.

Apple is only going to push these numbers as it makes them look like they have a much bigger market share and can positively impact sales.


RE: Uhh
By kelmon on 7/18/2008 9:12:44 AM , Rating: 2
The other thing is, do we really think that Apple will ever sell as many or more computers than the entire PC industry? The infrastructure required to do that would be mind boggling. I'm as pro-Apple as the next person (*sound of crickets*) but such a proposition is clearly nuts. I mean, can you imagine Dell, HP or Toshiba being the only suppliers of personal computers? So, yes, this measurement of a company's performance makes much more sense unless the market moves towards a duopoly.


RE: Uhh
By tayhimself on 7/17/2008 4:13:17 PM , Rating: 2
While you are correct in all your facts your conclusion

quote:
The rough result is that, guess what, Apple isn't really gaining any traction at all here.


is skews the facts just as much.

They are gaining traction thanks to how growth rates work (think about the magic of compound interest). It is however very unlikely that they will improve on being #3 PC hardware vendor. Anecdotally, I was at a PHP/JS user group meeting and 8/10 laptops were Macs. Pretty scary how quickly Apple has gained developer mindshare. Not sure what that means though as before developers favoured linux. Many devs have moved from Linux -> Mac.


RE: Uhh
By walk2k on 7/17/2008 4:34:07 PM , Rating: 1
"Apple Inc., once a bit player in the PC retail market,"

Since when did Apple start making PCs?


RE: Uhh
By Phynaz on 7/17/2008 5:27:12 PM , Rating: 3
Let's see, PC = Personal Computer.
And a Mac is....?


RE: Uhh
By walk2k on 7/17/2008 6:53:48 PM , Rating: 4
A Mac is a Mac.

A PC is a PC.

At least according to Apple's TV commercials.

You don't watch TV?


RE: Uhh
By audiomaniaca on 7/18/2008 11:01:57 AM , Rating: 2
Do you trust in commercials?


RE: Uhh
By mikefarinha on 7/17/2008 5:35:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Since when did Apple start making PCs?

ummm... since their birth.

I'm not a big Apple fan but to deny Apple their rightful place in PC history should be capital tech-geek sin.

Go watch "Pirates of Silicon Valley."


RE: Uhh
By michael2k on 7/18/2008 12:55:28 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, probably 1984 with the first Mac.

Alternatively, 2005 was the year when Apple shipped Intel compatible Macs.

Or 2007 when they shipped boot camp to allow full Windows compatibility on their Macs?


RE: Uhh
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 7/18/2008 11:14:40 AM , Rating: 2
Well, he gets paid by the post, so the more provocative the article, the more lucrative.

BTW, with about 6 million units sold annually in the current trend, with about 70 million units sold by all manufacturers in the US (only) in 2007, this gives Apple a 8.6% market share. Hardly remarkable.


Aha
By BruceLeet on 7/17/2008 3:39:50 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Apple claws its way closer to the top in retail PC sales


Just looks wrong, Macs aren't PC's they are AC's [Apple Computers]

Nice try Jase =p

When a Mac can play Crysis on very high [rofl] then we can talk about it being a PC :))




RE: Aha
By mikefarinha on 7/17/2008 5:39:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Just looks wrong, Macs aren't PC's they are AC's [Apple Computers]


Wow, this is getting out of hand. See my post above.
Apple pioneered the market for PCs.


RE: Aha
By Parhel on 7/17/2008 9:33:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Apple pioneered the market for PCs.


Not really. Apple was one of the early pioneers, but certainly no more so than many other companies such as Commodore, Tandy, Atari, IBM, or many others who never even made it off the ground.


RE: Aha
By Hare on 7/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: Aha
By Boze on 7/18/2008 5:33:47 AM , Rating: 5
Well if you want to be technical... Xerox brought us the GUI and the mouse. Thanks Xerox, and the Thieves' Guild thanks you, Steve Jobs, for getting it out there to us common folk.

P.S., I would have rated down your comment, but apparently you can only downrank someone so many times before you're not allowed to anymore. /sigh


RE: Aha
By audiomaniaca on 7/18/2008 11:03:57 AM , Rating: 5
XEROX did. Stop watching commercials.


RE: Aha
By Hare on 7/20/2008 2:38:22 AM , Rating: 2
That's why I used the word "consumers".


RE: Aha
By audiomaniaca on 7/18/2008 11:06:00 AM , Rating: 2
Intelligence here!


RE: Aha
By audiomaniaca on 7/18/2008 11:09:06 AM , Rating: 1
Definitely. The market of MP3 players and touch-screen photos as well, right?


RE: Aha
By audiomaniaca on 7/18/2008 11:09:19 AM , Rating: 2
Definitely. The market of MP3 players and touch-screen phones as well, right?


RE: Aha
By Scott66 on 7/17/2008 6:31:55 PM , Rating: 2
What do you think PC stands for?

It is "Personal Computer"

What company personifies "personal" more than Apple


RE: Aha
By BruceLeet on 7/17/2008 11:24:01 PM , Rating: 3
Ok you wanna play?

PC - Proprietary Computer :)))


RE: Aha
By kyleb2112 on 7/18/2008 3:00:18 AM , Rating: 2
The PC/Mac differentiation is a well established usage. Saves us all from typing "Windows Based System". Apple spends millions of dollars to sever itself from the PC label, so why force it?


RE: Aha
By jbizzler on 7/17/2008 7:40:46 PM , Rating: 1
Mac Pros can play Crysis on very high settings. With an 8800 GT or dual 3870s, it can just about do it depening on your resolution and what you consider "can play." I play Crysis on very high settings on a machine far less powerful than the Mac Pro.

Apple computers aren't PCs in the sense that they're not a clone of the origional IBM PC (something what we call PCs are inching away from). But they are Personal Computers, and they did run on CPUs based on the PowerPC architecture for a while.

There's just no word to describe personal computers that aren't Macs (espceially now that Macs run on x86 processors and emulate a BIOS), so Macs just get their own name, and the rest are called PCs.


RE: Aha
By michael2k on 7/18/2008 12:58:20 PM , Rating: 3
2007 called:
http://vistasucks.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/play-th...

Crysis plays on Macs now that they are Intel and NVIDIA/ATI powered machines.


RE: Aha
By retrospooty on 7/18/2008 1:54:13 PM , Rating: 4
I think he meant play games on Mac OS... we all know you can load Windows OS on a Mac and play games.

Kind of funny though - Mac users have to load a better OS to get a fully functional computer. LOL


Number 3 for now...
By Scott66 on 7/17/2008 2:27:43 PM , Rating: 1
And it will take a long time to reach #2 if ever. Apple though is making impressive gains in North America.

If they would directly sell to the world market, Apple would grow outside the US as well.




RE: Number 3 for now...
By daftrok on 7/17/2008 2:33:36 PM , Rating: 2
Um...don't they already sell directly to the world market? I've seen Japanese and British ads for it all the time. Unless selling directly to the world market means something else?

And also, the way Apple would grow anywhere is to cut the freaking prices and stop making multiple iterations of the same thing. No more lower end and higher end models. Just make one model and let us customize from there.


RE: Number 3 for now...
By silversound on 7/17/08, Rating: 0
RE: Number 3 for now...
By tehbiz on 7/17/2008 5:40:10 PM , Rating: 3
I have news for you, the "apple" people that install windows on a mac are what most refer to as PC users.

they just want to be smug too.


RE: Number 3 for now...
By jskirwin on 7/17/2008 3:59:44 PM , Rating: 2
They've been in Japan for at least 15 years. Back in the mid 90's when I was there I bought two of the things. It was popular in the Japanese market because the OS handled Japanese characters better than Fujitsu and NEC OS's.

Bad memories of NEC's PC98 OS here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_PC-9801


RE: Number 3 for now...
By Scott66 on 7/17/2008 6:26:29 PM , Rating: 3
They enter contracts with other resellers who take their twenty percent cut and make a high end product even yet more expensive


Wow what a Koolaid TYPE Article
By ap90033 on 7/17/2008 3:53:18 PM , Rating: 2
Mac's suck, why? Cost to much and you pay more for less. They have no where NEAR the market share as PC. This guy must work for the liberal media with as much "slanting" in this article. LOL

I wish they would open up the OS to allow some real hardware to run on it... Sigh...




By jbizzler on 7/17/2008 6:39:49 PM , Rating: 2
Man, if you don't feel Apple's business model is for you, then just say that. Lots of people see the benefit in having a controlled, well-supported hardware base. When Apple is making an operating system, they intimately know all the machines it will be installed on. Apple selling their own computers also keeps the operating system cheap, and drives its development.

What makes Macs not real hardware?

Lately, I've been looking like a Mac user in text, but I have never owned a single Mac in my life. I see the benefits of both worlds, and ultimately, PCs benefit me more. Different business models. Different needs.

If Apple is selling more products, kudos to the people who enjoy them.


RE: Wow what a Koolaid TYPE Article
By robinthakur on 7/18/2008 5:18:57 AM , Rating: 2
Republicans good, macs bad, gays bad, liberal media bad, wars good, democrats bad, foreigners bad, non-pc gaming bad, affluent people bad, USA good.

I think I just summed up your personality in a sentence. Feel free to cut and paste it within your comments, as it might just prevent people from wasting their time reading your posts.


By Pavelyoung on 7/20/2008 7:44:54 AM , Rating: 2
Excuse me? So now you have to be a Democrat to own a Mac and a Republican to own a PC?? What kind of retarded connection is that?


By robinthakur on 7/18/2008 5:19:01 AM , Rating: 2
Republicans good, macs bad, gays bad, liberal media bad, wars good, democrats bad, foreigners bad, non-pc gaming bad, affluent people bad, USA good.

I think I just summed up your personality in a sentence. Feel free to cut and paste it within your comments, as it might just prevent people from wasting their time reading your posts.


Tread Lightly Apple
By jbizzler on 7/17/2008 2:45:31 PM , Rating: 3
One of Apple's big advantages is that they're not on top. Most new Mac users either buy a Mac because they're fed up with the crap that occurs because Microsoft is on top (none of that crap affects my PC) or because they want to stand out (insecure losers).




By Rodney McNaggerton on 7/17/2008 6:02:30 PM , Rating: 2
I'll say it again: percentages look better but real world that growth isn't more than dell's retail growth, and is close to HP's retail growth in actual numbers.




When you're at the bottom...
By kickwormjoe on 7/17/2008 7:42:44 PM , Rating: 2
...there's nowhere to go, but up.




In Other News
By Ryanman on 7/18/2008 2:44:42 AM , Rating: 2
The Median Intelligence Quotient of Americans dropped by a substantial margin, strangely coinciding with increasing Apple Computer sales.




so we all agree...
By bohhad on 7/29/2008 9:22:49 AM , Rating: 2
apple is a pc manufacturer now?




By jonmcc33 on 8/2/2008 7:02:44 PM , Rating: 2
http://techreport.com/discussions.x/15239

quote:
The tide has turned for 64-bit editions of Windows Vista. Despite a slow debut among the enthusiast and developer communities, Vista x64 is now making some serious headway, according to a post on the official Windows Vista Team Blog.

Microsoft's Chris Flores doesn't just base that observation on a gut feeling—he has plenty of statistics to support it. Looking at the number of PCs connected to Windows Update, Flores says the installed base of 64-bit Vista systems "has more than tripled in the U.S. in the last three months." Overall, 20% of new Vista systems that signed on to Windows Update in the United States this June were 64-bit, up from a paltry 3% in March. And it's not just North America—Vista x64 uptake has also "more than doubled" worldwide over the last three months.

Why are these changes occurring now? Flores points in part to falling memory prices, which makes a whole lot of sense. Looking at our system guides, coupling the $1,000 Grand Experiment build with 2GB of memory cost around $80 in July 2007, while we can now outfit that build with 4GB of slightly faster RAM for the same price. PC makers have seized the opportunity to do the same in a growing number of consumer system—and utilizing all of that memory pretty much mandates a 64-bit OS.


Apple just got owned big time.




i just don't understand
By omnicronx on 7/17/08, Rating: -1
RE: i just don't understand
By ChronoReverse on 7/17/2008 3:56:06 PM , Rating: 4
How is gaming on PC dead if Crysis, a game with horribly high requirements, managed to sell over 1.5 million copies worldwide?


RE: i just don't understand
By omnicronx on 7/17/08, Rating: -1
RE: i just don't understand
By ChronoReverse on 7/17/2008 5:38:50 PM , Rating: 5
I started gaming with Commander Keen it wasn't like I was there from the dawn of gaming. However, the audience for gaming nowadays is significantly larger than what it used to be. I wonder if there even were a million PC's in homes back then (my 386 cost $3000 in 1988 dollars)

And it's not like you need a $400 video card for games. There's been a mid-range video card for a long time.

The cards I owned:
Voodoo Banshee
TNT2 M64
Geforce 2 MX
Geforce Ti4200
Geforce 6800LE
Radeon X1950Pro
Radeon 4850

Not one of those cards ever costed more than $200 and all of them were able to play recent games at least with medium settings at a modest resolution (even Crysis!)

And then there's the huge market for more casual games. Like The Sims where they've sold collectively over 100 million copies.


RE: i just don't understand
By jRaskell on 7/18/2008 12:43:08 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
not to mention a good video card these days costs as much or more than a 360 arcade and the wii.


That's completely incorrect. A good video card can be had for $150. A really good video card can be had for $200. It's only the best video cards that cost as much as a new console.

And if you think Crysis is the only brightspot in PC gaming in the past few years, then you're obviously completely out of touch with PC gaming and have no business even commenting on it.


RE: i just don't understand
By tehbiz on 7/17/08, Rating: -1
RE: i just don't understand
By ChronoReverse on 7/17/2008 5:39:53 PM , Rating: 3
Uh huh. I said Crysis because it was an example of a game that is considered to have sold POORLY.

You took CoD4 which is a game that is considered to have sold WELL.

So how is that dead?


RE: i just don't understand
By tehbiz on 7/17/08, Rating: -1
RE: i just don't understand
By ChronoReverse on 7/17/2008 5:54:15 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
How is gaming on PC dead if Crysis, a game with horribly high requirements , managed to sell over 1.5 million copies worldwide?


Surely this would have given you a hint? Haven't you heard that Crytek is saying that they're considering pulling out of the PC arena because Crysis did so POORLY allegedly due to piracy?


RE: i just don't understand
By tehbiz on 7/17/2008 5:58:41 PM , Rating: 2
well you bolded the high system requirements and then mentioned piracy. which of the two excuses are you trying to use to explain why the pc gaming market is"nt" dead?


RE: i just don't understand
By ChronoReverse on 7/17/2008 6:09:32 PM , Rating: 2
Because even in such a "bad" situation, it sold 1.5Million copies.

Let's look at the AAA games for the 360:
Halo3 - 8.05 Million
CoD4 - 6.20 Million
GTA4 - 5.64 Million
GoW - 5.27 Million
GH3 - 3.15 Million

These represent the absolute best of the best on a console that has a much better attach than the PS3 (the best game for the PS3 is GTA4 with 4.13 Million).

They're not even that much higher than a game that was supposedly doing pretty bad on the PC.

Let's not even think about The Sims and World of Warcraft


RE: i just don't understand
By jRaskell on 7/18/2008 12:47:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Haven't you heard that Crytek is saying that they're considering pulling out of the PC arena because Crysis did so POORLY allegedly due to piracy?


Crytek has said no such thing at all. What they said is they'll no longer make PC exlusive games. Warhead will be the last PC exclusive. At no point have they even inferred or hinted at the possibility of pulling out of PC gaming entirely.


RE: i just don't understand
By ChronoReverse on 7/18/2008 4:00:51 PM , Rating: 2
You're right, I misread their comments. Still, they were claiming huge figures for Crysis piracy.


RE: i just don't understand
By ChronoReverse on 7/17/2008 5:55:11 PM , Rating: 2
And surely we don't compare AAA games to games like the one you mentioned?

There are plenty of shovelware games for the 360 and PS3 that sell just as poorly too you know.


RE: i just don't understand
By Reclaimer77 on 7/17/2008 5:45:55 PM , Rating: 4
1.5 Million is nice, but you can't even begin to compare that to how many copies of World of Warcraft have been sold. Not to mention Starcraft 3 and Diablo 3 are just around the corner.

People who say " pc gaming is dead " are just console fanboi idiots.


RE: i just don't understand
By kelmon on 7/18/2008 11:23:37 AM , Rating: 2
If it helps, I think gaming is "dead" on both the PC and consoles and has been for many years. Games do sell better today but I'm just fed up with the lack of ideas and originality in gaming. I have no doubt that Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 will be huge selling games, but they're still just going to be same games as before but with a few tweaks. When I look at what is coming for any platform, I'm just not excited by it anymore because they all tend to be revisions of titles that have gone before.

That said, I'm just old. Perhaps gaming is just something you grew out of. However, if we get a new genre game then I'll be interested again.


RE: i just don't understand
By BruceLeet on 7/17/2008 11:26:01 PM , Rating: 2
1.5 million copies, mannn, there are alot of benchmarkers out there :)))


RE: i just don't understand
By zzebi on 7/17/2008 4:34:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
in reality a 500$ laptop from dell with a few years support will far surpass anything that Apple has to offer when you consider price per performance.


This is totally false. Apple laptop prices are in line with similar Dell offerings (just checked online). Dell Inspiron laptops and their MacBook equivalents with exactly the same specs (including the usual $100 Apple printer voucher) cost almost exactly the same.
And if you are a student, you are actually much better off buying the MacBook because you'll get $100 discount plus now an iPod touch for free. Altogether you get much more value for your money.
But in reality MacBooks are closer to the more expensive Dell Latitude line than the Inspirons because of their higher quality design and lighter weight. If you compare the MacBook to the equivalent Latitude, the results are similar as in the previous comparison.

So let's kill the myth of expensive Mac computers. The reason why Macs are more expensive is that Apple doesn't sell low end computers so even the lowest-spec'd Macs are much above the average PC specs.


RE: i just don't understand
By DASQ on 7/17/2008 5:28:24 PM , Rating: 2
Fair comment, except when you realize that Dell is overpriced unless they're offering a couple hundred bucks in rebates and a free printer or some such.


RE: i just don't understand
By jbizzler on 7/17/2008 7:32:35 PM , Rating: 2
Well, this isn't entirely true. I've only ever been able to justify Macbooks after considering battery life and build quality and the fact that they are much smaller and lighter. Without those, Dells tend to be much cheaper, mostly because they always have coupons available! Not unusual to find $250 off a Dell if you look a little bit.

When I got my Inspiron 1520, it had identical specs to the baseline Macbook Pro at that time.

15'' matte display 1440x900
8600M GT
120GB 5400RPM Harddrive
2.2GHz Core 2 Duo Processor
2 GB PC2-5300
Integrated 802.11a/b/g and draft-n

The Macbook Pro with those cost $2000 the day I decided to buy my Inspiron, which had all those same specs but only cost $1300. I was also eyeing a Compal IFL90 with the same specs that was $1500. But, like I said, both these computers are cheaper, have worse battery life, and are made out of plastic.

The Macbooks aren't necessarily overpriced. They cost more price/performance, but there are so many things about a laptop other than performance.

If you prefer those things over price, then a Macbook is right for you!


RE: i just don't understand
By Omega215D on 7/18/2008 5:51:30 AM , Rating: 2
MaximumPC acutally did an article about laptops in their recent issue. Apple's MacBook Pro received high scores for its performance while the MacBook reveived middling scores in the midrange area.

I'd suggest people read up on it before bashing since Macs are just as good in what they do.


RE: i just don't understand
By jeff834 on 7/17/2008 8:36:48 PM , Rating: 2
Um...what? I have a friend who recently purchased an Apple laptop at Best Buy because a girl told him to. He paid $2800 as it was a pretty powerful system, 17" screen, etc. The DAY he bought it I priced a system on Dell.com with the EXACT same specs (except the Dell had MORE RAM), for $1400. So with the exact same specs you're talking about paying half for a Dell system. Actually less than half as I believe that was after adding an extended warranty to the Dell system. And of course everyone who knows anything about PCs knows Dell is overpriced and it would be easy to find or build a similar laptop from another manufacturer for $1000-$1200.

Apple products are a huge waste of money. Aesthetically pleasing? Sure. Expensive? Ridiculously. As for ipods everyone thinks they're so great, but I've known so many people with ipods that just cease to function. And iphones are pretty, but something like the Samsung Instinct which only costs $130 with contract as opposed to $300 with contract comes with an extra battery (which you don't have to pay someone $100 to put in for you), and expandable memory.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if Steve Jobs took a crap, painted it white, and called it an iDump a million yuppies would pay $500 for it.


RE: i just don't understand
By kelmon on 7/18/2008 7:49:39 AM , Rating: 1
That's very exciting news. However, a computer is more than just is specifications and it will be a cold day in Hell when I go back to Dell again. Compare the 2 machines side by side and then make a decision.

I do have a 17" MacBook Pro. I have absolutely no problem with paying more for something that I like. I will probably buy another in a year or so's time because this one has been so good. I am perfectly aware that cheaper alternatives exist. Whether you think I am an idiot for this really doesn't bother me in the slightest.

At the end of the day, I use this laptop for about 8-hours per day, most days of the week, and I expect something that it feels like someone took the time to design it. I don't buy a computer, or anything else for that matter, based on specifications.


RE: i just don't understand
By ThatNewGuy on 7/18/2008 10:29:21 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't buy a computer, or anything else for that matter, based on specifications.


I'm sorry.


RE: i just don't understand
By audiomaniaca on 7/18/2008 11:16:42 AM , Rating: 2
It's the same time Sony spends designing Vaios. Oh, they do not have the fruit on the lid...


RE: i just don't understand
By kelmon on 7/18/2008 12:19:23 PM , Rating: 2
That's probably true. If I were in the market for a Windows PC then a Sony VAIO would certainly be considered. That said, I think the HP Voodoo Envy 133 is a work of art and I'll be interested to see what they do with the rest of the range (Intel graphics is not enough).