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Snow Leopard...

Safari 4...

... and Quicktime X for $29, available in September -- oh my!  (Source: GDGT)
Apple claims to have refined 90 percent of the Leopard OS

Apple's WWDC today was filled with big announcements -- new and repriced Macbooks, and the iPhone 3G S.  Not to be lost in the announcements was Apple's new OS, Snow Leopard.  As anticipated, Apple used the conference to introduce Snow Leopard, the successor to Apple's Leopard (OS X 10.5).

At the conference, Apple bragged of now having close to 75 million active OS X users worldwide, up from 25 million in 2007.  It also blasted competitor Microsoft's Windows Vista OS as a failure, quoting InformationWeek's Paul McDougall.  Mr. McDougall wrote, "Vista has failed to catch on with mainstream computer users, while business have shunned it outright."

Apple is gunning aggressively for Windows 7, releasing Snow Leopard in September, a full month before Microsoft's release.  The release is priced at $29 (versus $129 for the previous OS, Leopard) and $49 for a "family pack" that can install on several home machines.

The company brags that the new OS improves 90 percent of the Leopard base, includes better standards support, and deploys new technologies.  The install process is also reportedly 45 percent faster and the OS consumes 6 GB less space, similar to the shrinking footprint of Windows 7 versus Vista. 

The new OS also features some snazzy new features, such as the Stacks (for better folder exploration) and the Exposed dock feature.  It also features new algorithmic enhancements such as text selection in PDF documents.  Chinese character recognition is also now supported via a drawing interface. 

Safari 4, which has been being beta tested, also was released as part of the new OS.  Also released for Windows, Apple claims that the browser is 8 times as fast as Internet Explorer 8 at JavaScript rendering.  It receives a perfect 100/100 on the Acid3 test; unlike IE 8 which fails with a 21/100 (other browsers like Opera 10 also received perfect marks).

QuickTime X is another key program, bringing "hardware acceleration, color correct, new technology for streaming (HTTP streaming)."

Apple is also making a fuss about its new OpenCL graphics and computing standard, which it hopes will be leveraged for better graphics and compute-heavy processing alike.

Between Safari 4, QuickTime X, and Snow Leopard Apple certainly delivered on all the rumors and expectations when it came to its OS and software.  However, the biggest surprise of all had to be the price.  With the new ultra-low price of OS X, the pressure is on Microsoft to lower its prices accordingly, or convince the consumer that it has a more functional new product. 

Microsoft is somewhat safeguarded, though, by the fact that Apple's closed box hardware policies won't allow non-Apple-hardware users to jump to OS X.  Still, the newly reduced price helps erode Microsoft's cost arguments, and invariably will soon be appearing in smarmy Apple commercials on TVs across the nation.

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oh lawd
By smackababy on 6/8/2009 4:30:13 PM , Rating: 5
Still, the newly reduced price helps erode Microsoft's cost arguments, and invariably will soon be appearing in smarmy Apple commercials on TVs across the nation.
Because saving $20 on upgrading your OS is worth spending $1000 more on a laptop with similar specs.

RE: oh lawd
By JasonMick on 6/8/2009 4:35:56 PM , Rating: 5
Agreed, and your $1,000 more expensive laptop can't play modern video games!

That said, it still seems unlikely to stop Cupertino from debuting ridiculous ads if the *OS* price of Windows 7 is more expensive. *shudders at the thought*

But I do suppose for those who already own an overpriced Mac laptop, the lower upgrade cost must at least be a relief.

RE: oh lawd
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By creathir on 6/8/2009 4:45:10 PM , Rating: 5
So yeah, you might want to check up on your specs before you slam Jason with sarcasm...

Apple computers have hardly any difference in components from normal PCs. In fact, the differences are so little, OSX runs perfectly on a variety of Windows based computers.

Intel CPU: Check.
DDR2 or DDR3 Memory: Check.
SATA based hard drive (SSD options): Check.
Graphics cards from NVidia or AMD (ATI): Check.

They have the same specs. I can purchase nice looking system that looks just as great as an Apple PC.

The only difference, is the piece of fruit plastered all over the device, and the fact that I just paid $1000+ more than everyone else...

I'll take my Walmart shoes thank you very much!

- Creathir

RE: oh lawd
By biggsjm on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By ImSpartacus on 6/8/2009 5:52:00 PM , Rating: 5
Let's be reasonable. DDR3 technically is superior, but it rarely matters. The only reason I would ever get DDR3 is for the (slightly) superior battery life.

RE: oh lawd
By inighthawki on 6/8/2009 8:35:52 PM , Rating: 5
And if you are trying to compare the two, that's ridiculous. They are not the same.

You sound like he's trying to compare a cpu vs a hard drive here, DDR3 is nothing more than slightly better ram. The performance difference is near negligible from the user's point of view, and the only true advantage is better power efficiency (uses less power). Overall DDR2 is currently a much better value due to its much lower price. Im sure over the course of a year or two we will see massive price decreases (i believe we already have had some) and until DDR3 is close to or less than DDR2, it won't be very much better.

RE: oh lawd
By murphyslabrat on 6/9/2009 2:34:29 AM , Rating: 4
Im sure over the course of a year or two we will see massive price decreases

Actually, part of the advantage of DDR3 is a simpler geometry, meaning that it is easier to produce. Currently, this is a moot point, as DDR3 has nowhere near the volume of production as DDR2, but like DDR2 vs DDR, once it comes into it's own, we could see 1GB prices hit as low as $10.

RE: oh lawd
By TGIM824 on 6/8/2009 10:29:26 PM , Rating: 5
Here's a MacPro configured at the Apple Store for $2699 and they will throw in free shipping (monitor not included).
One 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
3GB (3x1GB)
640GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
One 18x SuperDrive
Apple Mighty Mouse
Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad (English) and User's Guide

Here's a kick ass gaming system from CyberpowerPC, the first one that popped up when I searched for a 2.66GHz i7 gaming system. I had to dumb down this computer to better match the $2699 specs of the Apple, and this one only cost $1159, but you have to pay for shipping, where the Apple throws in shipping for free.
Using the Mega Special IV
CASE: NZXT Zero 2 Crafted Series Steel Full Tower 420W Case (Blue Color Trim)
POWERSUPPLY: 800 Watts Power Supplies [+24] (CyberPowerPC XF800S Performance ATX 2.0 Power - Quad SLI
CPU: Intel® Core™ i7-920 2.66 GHz 8M L3 Cache LGA1366
FREEBIE_CU1: FREE Game! Tom Clancy's H.A.W.X
FREEBIE_CU2: FREE! CyberPower Multi-Purpose Carrying Briefcase ($19.99 Value)
FREEBIE_CU3: FREE! Cyberpower Unleash The Power T-Shirt ($19 Value)
FAN: XtremeGear Ultra Triple Heatpipes Cool Copper Heatsink CPU Cooling Fan (Extreme Silent at 20dBA & Overclock
Proof) [+13]
MOTHERBOARD: Asus P6T SE Intel X58 Chipset CrossFireX Mainboard Triple-Channel DDR3/1600 SATA RAID w/
MEMORY: 6GB (2GBx3) PC1333 DDR3 PC3 10666 Triple Channel Memory (Corsair or Major Brand)
VIDEO: ATI Radeon HD 4870 PCI-E 16X 512MB DDR5 Video Card [+13] (Major Brand Powered by ATI)
HDD: Single Hard Drive (500GB SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache 7200RPM HDD)
CD: (Special Price) LG 22X DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW DRIVE DUAL LAYER (Black Color)
NETWORK: Onboard Gigabit LAN Network
KEYBOARD: Logitech Deluxe 250 USB Keyboard (Black Color)
MOUSE: XtremeGear Optical USB 3 Buttons Gaming Mouse
USB: Built-in USB 2.0 Ports
OS: Microsoft® Windows Vista™ Home Premium w/ Service Pack 1 [+104] (64-bit Edition)
FREEBIE_OS: FREE! (Halo 2) Game

And look at all the free crap they throw in, but you have to pay for shipping, I guess that is where Apple gets you with a better deal, they give free shipping.

RE: oh lawd
By Screwballl on 6/8/2009 11:37:23 PM , Rating: 2
What PC did you buy, that costs $1,000 less and has the same specs? I'd like you to reply with that PC.

Try any custom built or OEM computer...

Go to newegg and price out a system... you are guaranteed to spend at least $1000-1500 less than the exact equivalent Mac/Apple... the ONLY difference will be the OS.

RE: oh lawd
By Etern205 on 6/9/2009 12:27:48 AM , Rating: 2
For $2000 on a macbook Pro all you get is a dual core and 2GB of ram
For $1700 on a PC based notebook and you get a mobile Intel Core 2 Quad along with 4GB of DDR3

RE: oh lawd
By ltcommanderdata on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By Sazar on 6/8/2009 5:53:59 PM , Rating: 4
A Dell Latitude 6500. 1" thick, 5.2 lbs. 15.4" screen. It also has excellent battery life and will have and LED screen and backlit keyboard and a myriad other options, including various docks. Graphics options include a Quadro NVS 160 which should net you better performance between the 9300 and 9400.

Just saying, there are options out there besides Apple Macs which have similar or better features. For the people that you think are looking at the overall value proposition, you'd expect them to do a little research. It took me a couple of minutes to look this information up.

RE: oh lawd
By twhittet on 6/8/2009 7:08:36 PM , Rating: 4
Just wondering, (I really don't know) - what kind of warranty support does Apple provide? I am a fan of Dell's next business day support - and have had quite a few tech's come the next morning to work on a PC. Would Apple come to my house/business the next morning?

RE: oh lawd
By ltcommanderdata on 6/8/2009 7:41:31 PM , Rating: 2

The 5.2lbs/2.3kg figure is only for the model with a 4-cell battery. With the 6-cell battery the notebook weighs 2.74kg compared to 2.49kg for the 15.4" MacBook Pro and gets 4 hrs of surfing time. Getting more battery life will require buying the optional 9-cell battery which will increase weight further plus will stick out of the notebook. And having the top GPU option as the Quadro NVS 160 means that the GPU is weaker than the 9400M in the MacBook Pro.

Yes, the Dell Latitude E6500 is a good alternative to the 15.4" MacBook Pro, but the MacBook Pro is still stronger in offering better battery life while being lighter and having faster components. In exchange the Latitude is cheaper so it really depends on what's important.

RE: oh lawd
By MonkeyPaw on 6/8/2009 8:14:02 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, but what battery life claim are you using, Apple's advertised, or the real thing? Apple claims that the non-replaceable battery in the 17" MBP gets 7-8 hours on a charge, while real-life usage is 4-5 hours. Granted, the advertised battery life is almost always exaggerated by every manufacturer, but it's the real-life use that matters. 4-5 hours of surfing on a 15.4" notebook is quite good, considering my 6-cell Eee904HA does the same on 1/4 the screen size and computing power.

RE: oh lawd
By aegisofrime on 6/9/2009 12:44:20 AM , Rating: 2
I swear to you people, every time there's an Apple article a PC vs Mac argument starts. Specifically, the overpriced Mac vs the reasonably priced PC. Not that I'm defending Macs, they ARE overpriced all right. Why don't you guys do an article on this to put it to bed once and for all?

RE: oh lawd
By Pirks on 6/9/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By Sazar on 6/9/2009 2:10:34 AM , Rating: 4
I disagree.


I think the basic fact is both sets of hardware are essentially the same. You are paying for a brand. There is no net benefit beyond aesthetics. The primary issue is always Apple fans pointing out that PC products are inferior in some way or other and PC fans pointing out that Apple fans are just paying more money for the same thing in a (according to some) prettier box.

A Lexus and a Toyota ARE the same thing. You, however, get far better service at the dealerships for Lexus than you do for a Toyota. That level of service and the extra gadgets and leather and prestige are what you are paying for.

Apple and PC on the other hand do not have a net difference in service (at least in my experience with Apple tech support). And there is a level of prestige, but beyond that, there really is no difference. There are no real gadgets and fancy do's that differentiate between the two. Just a difference in perception.

RE: oh lawd
By adiposity on 6/9/2009 6:17:03 PM , Rating: 2
Well, at least you proved his point.

A Lexus and a Toyota ARE the same thing.

Um, no. Unless by "a toyota" you mean "a car made by the toyota company." In that case, a Prius and a Corolla are the same thing.

Toyota does not just re-brand their cars as Lexus and sell the same vehicle! They have different bodies, engines, interiors, and components. They also share a lot of these things across models. But since the model lineup for the two brands is totally different, it's irrelevant. You cannot find an is350 branded as Toyota!

Some of this is not true in Japan as they do not have Lexus over there. Even so, the individual models are all different.

It is not just a difference in service. The cars are different. This should be obvious, I would think. There might even be cases where a Toyota is better than a similar Lexus, but they are not the same thing.


RE: oh lawd
By Sazar on 6/10/2009 12:16:12 AM , Rating: 2
Toyota's parent company makes both and therefore they ARE the same.

When you sit in each vehicle, there are numerous shared items between the 2 cars. Granted you won't find an IS being-rebranded, just like you won't find a Corolla re-branded, but if you look at the components, there are a huge number of similarities.

Case in point, a fully-loaded Camry Hybrid and a fully-loaded LS460 have the same map software, start-stop control mechanism, various internal appointments such as the cruise-control and so forth. There will obviously be upgrades such as the auto-down screen for the rear-window when I put it in reverse and the auto-shut doors and trunk and what not, but, there are a lot of features shared.

Style-wise, they can be different but they share a lot more components than you may realize across platforms.

Given that between my brother and I, we have a Camry Hybrid, a Lexus IS-350, a Lexus LS 460 and an Infiniti M-45, I have a little clue about the differences and similarities between the cars (the M excepted) :)

RE: oh lawd
By sbtech on 6/10/2009 6:15:35 AM , Rating: 2
You obviously don't know your cars very well.

RE: oh lawd
By themaster08 on 6/9/09, Rating: 0
RE: oh lawd
By Sazar on 6/9/2009 2:05:01 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, that's well and good but you are also getting a user-replaceable product. Given that you can typically purchase a modular bay battery with the Latitude's, you have some combinations being shown to have battery life in excess of 17 hours.

Also, the Quadro is a professional line from Nvidia. In Professional work, it will typically outperform the 9400M. In gaming, it will typically be weaker, but if you run it with regular (non-Quadro) drivers, you should net yourself performance that is much closer to the 9400M. This essentially renders your faster components point moot as you are getting essentially the same level, at worst, for the products.

Again, this is a professional level product. I was assuming that the MacBook PRO was also a professional product :)

RE: oh lawd
By foolsgambit11 on 6/9/2009 4:52:22 AM , Rating: 2
Well, if you're going to compare battery life truly fairly, you need to compare battery run times when both computers have the same OS installed (which obviously excludes OS X from being the testing OS). Because the fact is that OS X does provide longer battery life by itself - potentially more than half again as long as Vista on the same hardware. That's a plus for a Mac, but one that needs to be neutralized if you are talking about relative costs excluding the OS, as the people above were arguing by saying that all you get for your extra cash is OS X when you buy a Mac.

Unfortunately, too, you may get better battery life on a Mac, but you lose the option of swapping batteries when you run low. Again, different strokes for different folks.

RE: oh lawd
By berkes on 6/9/09, Rating: 0
RE: oh lawd
By tdawg on 6/8/2009 7:26:46 PM , Rating: 2
The Lenovo Y650 is comparable in the CPU and GPU arena (battery life and screen res are lower), and it costs a whole lot less than a MacBook Pro. Looks good too and has solid IBM engineering.

Just saying.

RE: oh lawd
By ianweck on 6/8/2009 8:18:39 PM , Rating: 3
Can we still say Lenovo laptops have solid IBM engineering? Didn't Lenovo buy the business three or four years ago?

RE: oh lawd
By tdawg on 6/8/2009 8:30:45 PM , Rating: 2
I think so, since they would have no reason to re-engineer the solid foundation of their notebooks. The keyboards alone feel great on the Lenovo's. And their chassis seems quite strong. These were all pioneered when the outfit was owned by IBM and the existing tech just transferred to the new owner.

RE: oh lawd
By ianweck on 6/8/2009 9:25:09 PM , Rating: 2
I agree about the keyboard, I'm on a T41 now. Not a bad work laptop.

RE: oh lawd
By jimbojimbo on 6/9/2009 3:43:17 PM , Rating: 2
I'm loving my x200. Tiny and fast.

RE: oh lawd
By ianweck on 6/8/2009 8:23:01 PM , Rating: 2
but I doubt you'll find one that's as portable

Funny, my backpack doesn't seem to notice the difference between my IBM T41 and my wife's Macbook Pro. Neither does my back.

RE: oh lawd
By randomposter on 6/8/2009 10:14:16 PM , Rating: 2
I'm curious what other 15" laptop weighs 5.5lbs, is 1" thick, and has similar battery life to the 15" MacBook Pro while still maintaining decent specs on the CPU and GPU?

RE: oh lawd
By HighWing on 6/10/2009 1:08:58 AM , Rating: 1
but I doubt you'll find one that's as portable. For some people, that might be worth something.

How bout HP's TouchSmart laptops? Very Light, battery life could be better, but it is only 1" thick and it IS a touch screen. Not only highly portable, but the touch screen makes many things 10x easier for those that require portability. Plus here's the kicker, I picked up one brand new and shipped to my door for only $705. 2x64, 3gb Ram Vista Ultimate 64 etc. etc.

Apple can't even come anywhere close to that on any level.

RE: oh lawd
By aharris on 6/8/2009 5:15:35 PM , Rating: 5
My phone is plastered with a pineapple, ty.

RE: oh lawd
By jimbojimbo on 6/9/2009 3:44:12 PM , Rating: 2
I wonder how many people won't get that.

RE: oh lawd
By Rugar on 6/8/2009 4:48:28 PM , Rating: 2
I actually buy them at Academy, but same difference. My shoes cost $29.99 and not $129.99. Thanks for the helpful advice though.

RE: oh lawd
By omnicronx on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By afkrotch on 6/9/2009 2:48:49 AM , Rating: 5
Isn't that the same difference?

RE: oh lawd
By Rugar on 6/9/2009 8:15:09 AM , Rating: 3
Some people would rather appear smart than accept that there are regional idioms. Technically he is correct and I should have properly said, "there are no differences between your suggestion that the OP purchase Walmart shoes instead of Nike and my statement that I purchase Academy shoes rather than Walmart. All I have done is exchange one discount source for another while still rebutting the implication that no one chooses to purchase cheaper shoes from a discount provider rather than purchase the name brand."

But for the grammar police who do not recognize widely accepted idiom, please replace "same difference" with the above text. I apologize for any confusion.

RE: oh lawd
By JasonMick on 6/8/2009 4:46:17 PM , Rating: 5
I typically buy Asics or New Balance. Nike tends to make overpriced and uncomfortable running shoes.

Wait, were you trying to somehow justify Mac purchases by relating it to Nike shoes?

I think about the only extra "feature" you get from a Mac notebook that could be argued to be of value is the good battery life. Otherwise, the OS, software, hardware, and customer support are equal or lesser than their Vista equivalents. Windows 7 will likely make this gap bigger, not smaller. I'd only recommend MacBooks to those who heavily travel, don't care about gaming, and have a lot of money to blow. (if you fit that group, more power to you!)

RE: oh lawd
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By PhoenixKnight on 6/8/2009 5:12:47 PM , Rating: 4
If you like OS X, you can just crack it to run on a PC. I use OS X for Photoshop and it runs nicely and stably. Sadly, many other OEMs do cheap out on hardware, which is why I prefer to build my own computer.

RE: oh lawd
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By PhoenixKnight on 6/8/2009 5:35:55 PM , Rating: 5
Then get a nice Lian-Li case like I did. It's not quite a Mac, but the style is very similar.

RE: oh lawd
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By omnicronx on 6/8/2009 5:57:29 PM , Rating: 2
Lian-Li makes some beautiful cases, much better build quality than a Mac too.

RE: oh lawd
By Pirks on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By omnicronx on 6/8/09, Rating: 0
RE: oh lawd
By Pirks on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By PhoenixKnight on 6/8/2009 10:28:26 PM , Rating: 2
Lian-Li cases are heavy because they're bulky. They're heavy because they're well built, not just an ultra-thin metal structure with a bunch of cheap plastic on top of it. They're made entirely of aluminum, just like the Mac Pro case. If you'd actually seen and used one, I assure you you'd be singing a different tune.

RE: oh lawd
By GiganticPanda on 6/8/2009 11:47:10 PM , Rating: 5
I used to own a Mac Pro, and it was by far the worst computer I have ever owned. First of all, are you guys seriously suggesting that a Mac Pro is a light computer? A Mac Pro weighs 41.2 pounds, it's ridiculously heavy. Not to mention that the case design makes the computer a huge pain in the ass to work on if you are doing more than adding a hard drive. Have you ever seen the inside of a Mac Pro? The inside of the case is designed to look cool,but who cares since its going to be covered by a door anyway? And all those unnecessary pieces just add weight and make it a massive undertaking to get access to anything. A Lian Li PC-V1000 case of similar build quality weighs in at 17.63 pounds. Granted, thats not including any components, but its still much lighter than a Mac Pro case, while being much more functional as a case. As for the components, well all the hardware in my Mac was actually really cheap. The motherboard and the bulk of the other components are made by Foxcon. While not terrible, they are far from a top tier vendor. In fact, they make the motherboards for Dell computers. Thats right, Mac and Dell have the same tier of components. The motherboard failed after about a year. Other components, the super drive especially, were so cheaply made that I went through two of them in less than a year. In fact Sony does not even list that model on their website. The drive turns out to be an ultra cheap NEC model, just re branded as a Sony to make it seem more luxurious. As far as graphics, the best option available was an ATI X1900, which was a good card when it came out, but Mac didn't release a viable upgrade until the 8800 gt which was over a year old by that point and more than double the price of the PC version, which you was not usable buy design. The only advantage that a Mac has is in the OS, which cant play games or run the majority of commercial software. I got the Mac for photoshop and video editing and was throughly unimpressed. Photoshop runs just as well on my PC replacement which I can service and upgrade whenever I want, and paid well less than half the price for. If I could buy a Mac OS for 30 bucks, and dual boot it on my PC I would, but the actual Mac hardware is a huge rip off.

RE: oh lawd
By aegisofrime on 6/9/2009 1:36:01 AM , Rating: 4
That, my friends, is a wall of text. Don't do it!

RE: oh lawd
By Pirks on 6/9/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By PhoenixKnight on 6/9/2009 1:28:20 PM , Rating: 2
There's and enter/return key on your keyboard for a reason.

RE: oh lawd
By invidious on 6/8/2009 5:09:04 PM , Rating: 5
PC fanboys claim Apple has limited features for a high price and you counter with an analogy about cheap shoes being of low quality? you should probably work on your wordsmithery. A more accurate analogy would be dunkin donuts to starbucks.

But I can understand how you could have a hard time defending Apple with logic when buying an Apple computer is generally considered illogical.

Apple does a lot of things right, but making PCs is not one of them. That is generally considered fact around places like this, and no one is interested in debating it.

RE: oh lawd
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By ClownPuncher on 6/8/2009 5:49:57 PM , Rating: 5
Most people on a tech site are more tech oriented. We like to be able to upgrade our PC's on the cheap, with whatever parts we choose. We like the fact that Windows offers compatibility with just about all hardware we want to toss in our computers. We also generally have no issues with the OS Microsoft makes.

Most of us don't have Dell's, if we want our PC to look nice, there are hundred upon hundreds of different cases we can buy. I'd wager the majority of us play games also, not all of us care to dual boot.

I guess there is just no compelling argument why anyone who enjoys technology SHOULD buy a mac.

It's a non argument because unless you're on the road alot and need extra battery life on a laptop, it's impractical to buy a mac.

RE: oh lawd
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: 0
RE: oh lawd
By omnicronx on 6/8/2009 6:05:28 PM , Rating: 1
So a generalization that nobody who likes technology would buy a Mac is inaccurate at best.
No, it would be a generalization that happens to be correct most of the time.

Those that are tech oriented are far more likely to own a PC, I think you will be hard pressed to debate this point.

If you have not noticed this is the reason you (or any Mac fan for that matter) are being rated down. Not saying there are not Mac techies out there, but they are surely few and far between compared to PC techies.

RE: oh lawd
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: 0
RE: oh lawd
By artemicion on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By Scabies on 6/8/2009 8:24:13 PM , Rating: 3
Your ad hominem brings nothing constructive to the table. Go thump your chest elsewhere.

RE: oh lawd
By artemicion on 6/9/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By murphyslabrat on 6/9/2009 3:20:57 AM , Rating: 3
My thesis: People who have such passionate hate against Apple have some underlying issues and it's not just because Apple products are overpriced.

The problem isn't just that Macs are "overpriced", but that Apple seriously oversteps its bounds with its advertising. Their marketing is built on slander and shady claims, and the proletariat masses trust them. This, coupled with the fact that Apple charges a serious price premium for what are largely cosmetic benefits (largely interpreted as overpriced), and an OS that locks out almost everything non-Apple, makes me want to slap the idiot who tells me that I need to repent from my PC-buying sins.

Mind you, the brainless PC fanboy can be just as irritating, who merely bashes on Macs because it's the "cool thing to do" on these tech sites, and who has nothing better in his persuasive repertoire than can be summed up with "is too, is not."

For me, personally, I value performance and speed far more than cosmetics, but neither will extract much money from me. I am more from the "good enough" camp, for whom the major OEM's have nothing. I have a Gateway P-6831fx that I purchased for half the MSRP on eBay, and everything else I or my parents have was built by myself.

RE: oh lawd
By omnicronx on 6/8/2009 8:30:08 PM , Rating: 5
Memories of being nerdy and awkward in high school and getting picked on by the hot valley cheerleaders that you half resented because they were jerks but were half attracted to because they were hot. So traumatic!
Welcome to the new century, where it is possible to be socially active and be a computer geek at the same time. Now I cannot speak from experience(I played alot of sports in HS and was very socially active), but many of the 'geeks' in highschool that I knew now make tons of money, and the cool and chick kids now serve them coffee in the morning.

So ill have a double double, and you can continue earning minimum wage, saving up your entire years salary to buy one of those cool and chic Mac's that will bring you back to the glory days of highschool.

Now back to the original topic, if you come to a tech site you are more than likely encroaching on PC user territory, sure its a generalization, but as I said previously, its a generalization that usually proves to be true. I have nothing against Apple products except for the fact they are overpriced. There is really no debating that a user that knows what they are doing can build an aesthetically pleasing computer for a fraction of the cost.

P.S 24 and reality TV do suck, American idle is the worst thing that has happened to any country in the last 100 years , Pop music is terrible, and who doesn't like Lost.

RE: oh lawd
By afkrotch on 6/9/2009 3:02:26 AM , Rating: 2
Lost blows.

RE: oh lawd
By Pirks on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By omnicronx on 6/8/2009 8:46:20 PM , Rating: 3
Better keep your mouth shut, the truth is not welcome here.
Hmm... not too sure if that will work either, that leaves little space for the dick of Steve Jobs.

RE: oh lawd
By Pirks on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By ClownPuncher on 6/8/2009 6:10:31 PM , Rating: 4
That macs don't play games was only a minor point. But still very important to hundreds of millions worldwide.

I think the fact that a Microsoft based OS has such a massive range of hardware and software compatibility is the major point. The next is that it's undisputably cheaper.

While I'm glad you'd rather be outside than playing video games, I doubt anyone besides your S.M.U.G. gives 2 squirts of piss.

RE: oh lawd
By web2dot0 on 6/8/2009 6:39:44 PM , Rating: 1
This whole thing about Mac not able to play games have been beaten to death.

We get it. It doesn't play games. Get over it. Macs are never targetted to gamers and not in the medium term. It doesn't mean that it has no value. It's tailored for a different market.

It was built to satisfied marjority of users, who turns out to be people who don't play games. The PC gaming market is a big market, but not that big compared to the overall Pc market in of itself.

Just because people don't play games doesn't mean they are not tech savvy.

The general consensus amongst the "tech savvy elite" is the MACs are not configurable, costs more the get the same performance. All of which are true.

However, it doesn't mean that it's not a good product. People don't buy cars purely out of performance, so why should you but an computer as such?

If performance/practically is such a big deal to everyone, then why would anyone bother to buying expensive T-shirts/Jeans/shoes/etc ...
You can wear the same pair of jeans for years on end until is rips and wear the same t-shirt you wore in high school.

Apple sells an attractive product with excellent integration of features along with excellent marketing at the time when the competitors are at its weakest.

Get over it. It's a good for product for its targetted market, and that market happpens to be worth billions. GET IT?

RE: oh lawd
By ClownPuncher on 6/8/2009 7:19:14 PM , Rating: 5
Try backing up and debating the other, more important points besides gaming then.

RE: oh lawd
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By Targon on 6/8/2009 9:54:40 PM , Rating: 2
What you fail to realize is that OS preference is more like your religion. Nothing you say will convince people who have an informed preference to switch, so going around claiming that MacOS is better is only going to make you seem and sound like an ass.

This is what most people on the PC side of things dislike about Apple users. Most people who prefer things on the Windows side do NOT try to claim any sort of superiority, but instead just do what we want to do. When a Mac person comes along and tries to say how much better Apple is(and starts to convince people who don't have any experience without any direct comparisons in the use of the machine), that is when the Apple bashing begins.

Now, there are some very good reasons to dislike Apple, and there are some very good reasons to dislike Microsoft. When it comes right down to it though, you have far too many Apple zelots that just can NOT handle the fact that not everyone likes the feel of MacOS. I personally feel that the MacOS UI is not all that friendly or any easier to navigate compared to a Windows XP or Vista machine. I am sure that for SOME people it may seem easier, but as I said, it is like a religion, and you pick and choose what works best for YOU.

I will grant that an Apple computer does come out of the box better, and Microsoft really could stand to drop the stupid benchmarking phase of the initial install of Vista(which they may have done with Windows 7), along with a LOT of the wasted time during the initial bootup. Other things like having the run command, printers, and so on missing from the start menu(until you customize it to add it back in) are other stupid things that should not need to be done after the fact. But, once things are set up, there is nothing about a MacOS setup that is actually better.

RE: oh lawd
By Scabies on 6/8/2009 11:06:53 PM , Rating: 2
RE: oh lawd
By afkrotch on 6/9/2009 3:16:22 AM , Rating: 2
Not sure about these setup that you had to do. My Vista didn't require any tweaking, except for stopping programs from starting up on startup. Those were the programs I added onto Vista, not what came with it.

I did setup my start menu to classic (I hate XP, Vista, Win7's start menu).

I hated using OSX for the few months I played with it. The first time I felt like I had a condescending OS. Then Vista and Win 7 came along. Now they all feel like a piece of crap.

RE: oh lawd
By Kibbles on 6/8/2009 11:03:45 PM , Rating: 3
How about work? That $80k HPLC you just bought? Probably doesn't support Mac, or the $1000 online meter, probably not even the $100 handheld meter. Many applications in the science field are PC only, and when you are trained to use a certain OS for work, you tend to use it for personal use. What is the typical professional use for Macs? Video production, photography, and sound production? There's just way more people that HAVE TO use PC's vs those who HAVE TO use Macs.

This doesn't just apply to scientific field either. Any company that needs to periodically release software, yet aren't huge companies, will release only PC. It's just not financially viable to spend the extra money to support Macs.

I'll admit that I wouldn't mind buying some Apple products. Though a Mac's quality is now pretty much the same as PC they are better aesthetically designed, and iPods still have the best interface of all mp3 players. However their iron fist policies of "our way or the highway" is not deserving of my pocket vote.

RE: oh lawd
By smackababy on 6/8/2009 6:24:14 PM , Rating: 3
That is funny because I develop software for a living as well and I'd rather use a platform that has 90% marketshare.

RE: oh lawd
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By afkrotch on 6/9/2009 3:19:17 AM , Rating: 5
So in other words, buy an expensive computer product, get a virtualization software (possibly buy), then buy another OS. Ya...sounds like the way to go.

RE: oh lawd
By MrWho on 6/8/09, Rating: 0
RE: oh lawd
By FaceMaster on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By invidious on 6/8/2009 5:12:04 PM , Rating: 5
If you want to spend $1000 on your smugness than thats your problem. Everyone thinking your an idiot is another one of your problems.

RE: oh lawd
By PhoenixKnight on 6/8/2009 5:17:10 PM , Rating: 5
Are we Linux fanboys free to blast you and vote you down? My hardware cost the same as a windows computer and my OS cost me nothing. And, I get to customize the hell out my desktop so it looks and works exactly the way I want it. HA!

RE: oh lawd
By web2dot0 on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: oh lawd
By PhoenixKnight on 6/8/2009 7:10:15 PM , Rating: 5
I guess in your warp world, everyone should do the same.

Where exactly did I say anything that even remotely implies anything like that?

I get it, you spare time isn't worth anything.

And what the hell does it matter to you how I spend my spare time? What gives you the authority to decide what is and is not worthwhile for other people to do with their time?

RE: oh lawd
By LumbergTech on 6/8/2009 7:14:50 PM , Rating: 2
You are right, however, none of this gives apple a favor over pc...

RE: oh lawd
By ClownPuncher on 6/8/2009 7:34:54 PM , Rating: 4
You didn't have to learn OS X? OS X customizes itself to YOUR needs? These questions are rhetorical, because I know you were using BS to try to prove a point. Linux is extremely customizable, but you dont need to spend your time doing that, it works fine once installed. More options = better.

Most people who own a Windows PC don't tinker, they either buy a PC with an OS already installed, or install the OS and never worry about it again. Sorry if you were told Vista/ Win7 were unstable or difficult to use, because they are rock solid and quite easy to use.

You are saying Mac's never need processor upgrades? Don't be a tool. Mac hardware is usually just previous-gen PC hardware. Either way, people like you pay to have other people do the upgrades for them or buy a new computer. It's no different for PC or Mac.

Lastly, Linux isn't free bcoz u hav 2 lern? Maybe that is the problem, you don't like to learn, which is why you got a Mac.

RE: oh lawd
By Scabies on 6/8/2009 8:29:17 PM , Rating: 2
Your so called "free stuff" isn't free. You spent your time and energy learning these things. Time also have a cost associted with it.

That cost, for me at least, is measured by saving upwards of $400 on every computer I will ever own.

RE: oh lawd
By sieistganzfett on 6/8/09, Rating: 0
RE: oh lawd
By clovell on 6/8/2009 5:25:23 PM , Rating: 5
Bill Gates actually does more philanthropy on a personal basis than Apple does as a company.

RE: oh lawd
By Sazar on 6/8/2009 5:56:02 PM , Rating: 3
Probably quote of the day :)

RE: oh lawd
By PhoenixKnight on 6/8/2009 7:52:15 PM , Rating: 4
Here! Here! Give this man a 6.

RE: oh lawd
By munky on 6/8/2009 5:43:57 PM , Rating: 5
Apple is more than just a product. It's an EXPERIENCE.

LOL, good one... seems like you've swallowed the Apple hype hook, line and sinker. I'd imagine it must be quite the experience in trying to convince yourself that the gay white color and fruity logo of the computer you just bought are worth the $1000 you threw away.

RE: oh lawd
By FaceMaster on 6/9/09, Rating: 0
RE: oh lawd
By omnicronx on 6/8/2009 5:55:32 PM , Rating: 4
I find it funny that Apple fans think that this $29 price was out of the goodness of Apples heart.

They are afraid of Windows 7, PERIOD! Unlike previous OSX releases, almost everything that 10.6 has is under the hood. Their previous argument that Apple = Innovation does not apply this time around when it comes to the average consumers viewpoint. All they will see is OSX 10.6 with a new theme, to them nothing else will change.

Windows 7 actually has a new UI, even if it is Vista under the covers, the average person does not know that. What they see is an OS that has actually changed, with UI changes and an additional featureset.

Don't get me wrong, the changes behind 10.6 are very much so needed. They will make the OSX experience better in the long run, but Apples marketing is playing against them this time around. This time to the average consumer Snow Leopard is a mere service pack and Windows 7 is a new OS, even if we all know this is not the case. Telling an Apple user than they now have 64bit support and a pure Cocoa OS is not going to sell computers(or OS upgrades for that matter).

RE: oh lawd
By MScrip on 6/8/2009 10:20:30 PM , Rating: 2
They are afraid of Windows 7, PERIOD!

I'm not sure Apple is that scared of Windows 7. Sure it looks nice and runs well... but the kind of people who are gonna buy a computer at Best Buy are probably gonna buy a Windows machine anyway... because of price. Apple doesn't compete against the $599 Back-to-School laptops.

People who want a Mac are still gonna get a Mac. And Snow Leopard makes it a better Mac now.

What exactly is Apple afraid of? That Windows 7 will sell 10:1 against Macs? That's always been the case!

RE: oh lawd
By afkrotch on 6/9/2009 3:27:22 AM , Rating: 3
The thing that Apple is afraid of is those who were on the fence between buying a Mac and a PC. If Windows 7 proves to be a solid OS and a mass seller, this could tip the favor towards PCs.

RE: oh lawd
By themaster08 on 6/9/2009 7:25:19 AM , Rating: 5
M$ and Billie Gates and Stevie Ballmer(maid) suck and do nothing for the world

You might find these links of some interest:-

You'll find it's in fact Jobs that does nothing for the world, except of course provide those with a lot of disposable income "cool" looking computers.

RE: oh lawd
By meepstone on 6/8/2009 5:40:51 PM , Rating: 2
yeah, the first thing i thought of was that. save $100 bucks on your OS compared to MS but spend an arm & a leg for an apple icon and worse hardware. woohoo $29 mac os! not.

RE: oh lawd
By Sazar on 6/8/2009 6:03:45 PM , Rating: 2
My question is, is the cost they are asking for the UPGRADE cost or the NEW OS cost?

My understanding was that this is an upgrade cost to an existing OS which is not going to be a significant departure (regardless of what the PR states, think Vista v/s Windows 7 which, ironically, the conference was bashing).

RE: oh lawd
By djc208 on 6/9/2009 7:19:06 AM , Rating: 2
The $100 savings is to subsidize the purchase that copy of Windows 7 for Bootcamp so you can run all the OTHER software that doesn't work in OS X.

Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By rs1 on 6/8/2009 4:36:28 PM , Rating: 5
Last time I checked, the only way you can install any version of OS X (without hacking it/violating the license) is to install it on hardware already purchased from Apple. Given that the hardware and software are locked together (or in other words, the software is useless as a standalone product...logically it's more like a firmware update for Apple hardware than an true OS release/update), and that both can only be purchased from Apple, it seem like Apple should just be providing OS X updates free of charge to its user, as part of its hardware maintenance program.

I just don't see how Apple can, in good conscience, charge an additional fee for OS X updates...oh wait, now I remember, Apple doesn't have a conscience. Nevermind then, carry on.

RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By rs1 on 6/8/2009 4:57:31 PM , Rating: 4
How is questioning whether or not it's ethical for Apple to charge a fee for an update package that only works on hardware purchased from Apple a silly rant? What they're doing is akin to nVidia or ATI charging for each driver update. Or motherboard manufacturers charging for a new BIOS revision. When was the last time you saw that happen?

I just don't think such business practices are all that ethical, your "buyer beware" counterpoint notwithstanding.

RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: 0
RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By rs1 on 6/8/2009 5:27:49 PM , Rating: 5
Okay, I'm going to try this one last time, since you clearly aren't grasping a critical portion of the concept.

Windows is a standalone product. You buy it, and it will run on any halfway reasonable x86 hardware platform you throw at it. You can buy that platform from any of a few dozen different sources, or assemble it yourself, but the one place you *cannot* buy the hardware from is Microsoft. They supply the software only, and allow the software to run freely on hardware from any source available. Thus Windows is a viable standalone product, and Microsoft charging separately for Vista and Win 7 is no different than Valve charging separately for Half-Life 2 and Half-Life 2: Episode 1 (it's a little better, actually, seeing as EP1 necessarily requires HL2 in order to function, while Win 7 does not require Vista to function).

OS X, on the other hand, is not a standalone product, because although you can buy it on its own, it will not (legally) run on any x86 hardware platform you throw on it. It will only run on hardware acquired directly from Apple. A small handful of third-parties have attempted to sell compatible hardware for OS X, but unfortunately Apple aggressively forces anyone who tries to do that out of business. Regardless, because OS X can only run on hardware purchased directly through Apple, it is more akin to a driver, or a BIOS, or a firmware, or any other piece of software that is tied directly to a specific piece of hardware that is provided only by a specific manufacturer. And if you look at how things are typically done, most providers know better than to attempt to charge money for a piece of software that only works on a piece of hardware that only they sell.

OS X and Windows, when you look at the fundamentals of what they really are, are not in the same category. Despite the fact that they are both labeled as "operating systems", trying to make a direct comparison between the sales and marketing of OS X and Windows is like comparing apples to oranges (when you buy Windows, you are really just getting an operating system, when you buy OS X, you are getting an operating system *and* committing to a very specific hardware platform that can only be attained from a single source). They are different classes of things, and what makes sense for one does not automatically make sense for both.

RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By JoshuaBuss on 6/8/2009 5:48:18 PM , Rating: 4
what are you smoking? he's given a very valid argument for the differences between OSX and windows, and you still seem to be completely missing his point.

The latest nvidia driver update for your graphics card is OPTIONAL too.. and even if it brings a lot more functionality and improved performance, that doesn't make it right to charge for it. His point is that OSX updates should ALWAYS be free, because they only work on Macintosh computers. In this regard they are identical to a driver update.. get it yet?

RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By ClownPuncher on 6/8/2009 6:15:15 PM , Rating: 5
What is difficult to understand is how much LSD you took before posting today.

By TSS on 6/8/2009 8:09:58 PM , Rating: 2
the first part of his name, meester, is dutch for master.

i think he used something other then LSD :P

RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By omnicronx on 6/8/2009 6:15:56 PM , Rating: 2
Give it up, you are not making any valid points. All the OP is saying that in any other situation in which we are dealing with a closed piece of hardware, updates are usually free.

I also do not think he specifically said they should give it away for free, there is obviously a market for it and people will buy it. He is just making the point that traditionally this is how it works with a closed piece of hardware. That being said, his argument still holds true, name another closed piece of hardware that charges for updates without losing considerable sales and marketshare (see creative) and perhaps you will have a point.

Apple has a fanbase that allows them to do certain things that would not be possible in any other market.

RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By misuspita on 6/8/2009 6:42:26 PM , Rating: 2
Either you are on crack, or we are talking with an alias of Pirks. Which one is it?

By DigitalFreak on 6/8/2009 7:29:01 PM , Rating: 2

RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By Pirks on 6/8/2009 6:41:21 PM , Rating: 3
Omni, you can destroy MeesterNid's arguments by one little observation: iPhone OS upgrades are offered to iPhone users for FREE.

Question is why Mac OS X upgrades can't be offered for free too?

After all there is absolutely no difference in business sense between proprietary closed iPhone hardware and proprietary closed Mac hardware.

Yet iPhone OS is being offered for free, and OS X is not. Why?

This is THE way to make MeesterNid shut up. Just ask him the question above, would you kindly? ;)

RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By JoshuaBuss on 6/8/2009 9:47:35 PM , Rating: 2
operating sytems ARE given away for free.. especially when the hardware they're designed to work with is only offered from the same place you get the software. did you pay for the OS that operates your toaster? your car?

the only reason windows costs money is because you can put that piece of software on any x86 machine.. not just one made by apple.

RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By Pirks on 6/8/2009 10:00:34 PM , Rating: 1
operating sytems ARE given away for free
Tell that to MeesterNid, he doesn't believe this obvious fact. Well, what can we do then. *sighs*

By Sazar on 6/10/2009 12:18:04 AM , Rating: 2
In his defense, iPod Touch owners have been and will apparently continue to pay for OS upgrades.

Just saying.

By afkrotch on 6/9/2009 3:38:23 AM , Rating: 2
You mean like how a 360 and PS3 come with their own OS? Both of which release updates and full blown overhauls for free.

You can also throw Linux on either if you felt like it too, but doesn't change the fact that their OS's are free, as you are stuck with their specific hardware.

By JoshuaBuss on 6/8/2009 5:43:42 PM , Rating: 4
amen, brother. I was floored the first time I realized you couldn't get these OS updates for free if you already owned a mac. It's been enough to keep me away from anything else the company makes ever since.

By dani31 on 6/8/2009 5:12:33 PM , Rating: 2
Give this man a 6, well said!

RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By cserwin on 6/8/09, Rating: 0
RE: Why does Apple sell their OS at all?
By RamarC on 6/8/2009 8:13:30 PM , Rating: 3
If Apple had any balls, they'd drop the hardware restrictions and make/sell OS/X just like any other OS distribution... runnable on any modern 32/64bit x86 platform. Oh but I forgot, this isn't a fair fight since Apple doesn't have the infrastructure to test their software on a myriad of hardware. They support maybe a baker's dozen of video cards, right? And considering iTunes was barely workable on Vista for the first 6 months of release and QuickTime oinks when it runs I can't see Apple making an OS that would work for the masses.

By Targon on 6/9/2009 8:41:24 AM , Rating: 2
The funny thing is that Apple could STILL open it up and clearly label which components it work with out of the box. So, they could still restrict the video cards, chipsets supported, etc and make it "open". Hardware vendors could then come up with drivers for MacOS to help sell their product. You have to figure that the increased sales of MacOS from this would offset the lost revenues from their hardware, not to mention enhance the support structure since more people would support MacOS if the OS were open to other hardware.

Right now, a big downside to Mac ownership is that there are far fewer people who service the things because many computer techs are not willing to pay a price premium for a Mac just to learn it well enough to PROPERLY provide support.

correct price
By batman4u on 6/8/2009 4:38:37 PM , Rating: 2
windows 7 should be priced on a similar price.

200 or 300 and even 400 for an OS is the very reason people go and buy pirate copies. 2 of 3 windows copies are pirate. do the math dont need to say more :D

RE: correct price
By UNHchabo on 6/8/2009 5:50:37 PM , Rating: 2
Well, in all fairness, $29 is listed as the upgrade price... anyone know what the full retail price of Snow Leopard will be?

RE: correct price
By Doormat on 6/8/2009 7:07:38 PM , Rating: 2
If you're upgrading from Tiger (10.4) or before its $129. If you're upgrading from leopard (10.5) its $29.

I agree that I'd like to see MS take this approach with Win7 - cheap upgrade from vista, $99 (or whatever) from XP.

I'd also like to see MS copy the family pack strategy. I've got two PCs and three Macs in my house (sorta, 1 is a hackintosh so I count it in both groups). To upgrade all three macs to Leopard its $49. To upgrade two PCs from XP to W7 will probably cost me $400 (two copies of W7 Pro). Thats a huge price gap.

All you MS fanbois want to complain about the price of the hardware, there is part of it on the back end - $400 for PCs OS upgrade vs $50 for all the Macs in my house. Where is my $350 from the "OS Upgrade Hunters" commercial?

RE: correct price
By afkrotch on 6/9/2009 4:20:38 AM , Rating: 5
Where is my $350 from the "OS Upgrade Hunters" commercial?

It can come out of the $1500 you saved buying a PC instead of a Mac.

By jskirwin on 6/8/2009 4:33:27 PM , Rating: 3
I've been running Windows 7 RC and while I like it a lot I'm a bit concerned about the price. I keep asking myself "How much would I pay for this product," and the price I come up with is nowhere near Vista's pricing scheme of $200-$320.

How much is Win7 worth to me? Maybe $100.

It would be nice if this encourages MS to rethink their pricing policy. I doubt it will, but it would be nice.

By Omega215D on 6/8/2009 4:44:37 PM , Rating: 2
That's what Newegg is good for, you can buy an OEM disc for $100 for Vista Home Premium.

It may be OEM but it's still the same whole OS except you have to choose the 32-bit or 64-bit versions.

By rs1 on 6/8/2009 4:45:09 PM , Rating: 2
Doubt it, you have to remember that for every OS X license Apple sells, it also means they've sold a whole bunch of hardware to go along with it, at a fairly substantial markup, no less. By contrast, when Microsoft sells a Windows license, that's all they sell. They don't have the option of selling their OS at below cost and subsidizing it through hardware sales (which is basically what Apple is doing), because they don't sell the hardware.

And if they so much as tried to lock Windows to their own proprietary hardware the way Apple does, the anti-trust lawyers would have a field-day.

By aharris on 6/8/2009 4:59:06 PM , Rating: 3
I agree with this, but you also have to remember all the enterprise licensing deals Microsoft has that Apple does not.

My thoughts on the Win7 Pricing:

1) Microsoft needs to make up for Vista. It wasn't a complete product out-the-box, and lack of industry collaboration early on stunted its image completely.

2) Microsoft needs something besides the typical, "It's a great OS!" rhetoric to convince Enterprises to give Win7 a shot. They want enterprises to skip Vista and go directly to Win7 for the same reasons people have hesitated upgrading to Vista: it's a heavy product on systems, especially when compared to Win7.

If Enterprises finally bite the bullet and upgrade to Vista instead of 7, their negative perspective on Microsoft products will continue to fester imo. Vista never was and never will be up to the bar 7 has set pre-release. Hell, even on my home system Win7 RC1 runs better than the fully patched current version of Vista I replaced.

3) Apple's marketing planners will eat up the Vista->Win7 and Leopard->Snow comparisons like a bride-to-be in a flower shop if Microsoft doesn't price Win7 competitively. I love Win7, but seeing it as a "Vista Fixed" OS, I refuse to pay more than $200 for it. Snow Leopard is easily a "Leopard Fixed" product, and Apple will wipe the floor with customer perspective if Microsoft doesn't match them on this one.

It should be an exciting fall between the two companies. Hopefully we can all move on from these bad OS releases like we did with Windows ME. >_<

Let me get this straight...
By SublimeSimplicity on 6/8/2009 4:53:27 PM , Rating: 2
The small piece of Microsoft market share they're looking to capture is people who bought an Apple and then replaced Leopard with XP or Vista.

Given the choice of Leopard for free or XP/Vista for a fee, they still didn't choose Leopard.

Apple's big scheme to get them back... charge them $29 for a marginally better product than the one they threw in the trash.

RE: Let me get this straight...
By aharris on 6/8/2009 5:05:12 PM , Rating: 2
Most of Leopard's nagging problems were fixed by 5.4. It now suffers from the same issues Vista suffers: large footprint, could stand to have some memory use reductions, and an overall incomplete feeling to we power-users.

The difference is the degree of the problems Leopard had were never anywhere close to Vista. Snow Leopard will be an improvement, but it's an improvement on a product that was a 7/10 instead of a 3/10 (Vista) to begin with.

RE: Let me get this straight...
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: Let me get this straight...
By aharris on 6/8/2009 5:18:25 PM , Rating: 2
You only have to reboot your Leopard OS when you patch because it manages memory MUCH better than XP ever did.

Although I'm still not sure about your 3 day stat for XP.. Windows 98 maybe, but that's never been my experience with XP SP2 or later.

RE: Let me get this straight...
By sieistganzfett on 6/8/2009 5:25:00 PM , Rating: 2
i had both my xp and vista computers running 24/7 for weeks without any problems at all or any reboots. the mac at the office never has issues requiring reboots either. maybe a PEBKAC Error for you?

RE: Let me get this straight...
By aharris on 6/8/2009 5:43:34 PM , Rating: 2
Gotta love those I.D.10T errors.

By jimbojimbo on 6/9/2009 4:05:39 PM , Rating: 1
My WinXP box stays up for months at a time and only reboot after patches. What you're basically telling me is you f'ed up your OS and you're blaming it on MS. Of course it's not your fault, it's someone else's. It's always someone else's fault.

No games = waste of money
By Mithan on 6/8/2009 4:44:04 PM , Rating: 2
OSX doesn't offer anything for gaming, so it useless for me. As well, Windows 7 is just around the corner.....

RE: No games = waste of money
By MeesterNid on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: No games = waste of money
By clovell on 6/8/2009 5:15:15 PM , Rating: 2
Wow! Does it mean I have to stop trolling tech boards, too???

RE: No games = waste of money
By Danger D on 6/8/2009 6:09:59 PM , Rating: 3
Great point. OSX users benefit from not being able to play a decent game and being forced off their computer by an inferior product.

That’s like when my car broke down and I lost 10 pounds in a week walking to work.

Can you vitualize Apple OS's?
By TennesseeTony on 6/8/2009 8:04:20 PM , Rating: 2
Can you run the Mac OS on a virtual machine?

RE: Can you vitualize Apple OS's?
By nixoofta on 6/8/2009 11:43:02 PM , Rating: 2
"Vitualize whirled peas"


By TennesseeTony on 6/9/2009 5:43:43 PM , Rating: 2
That was helpful, thanks.

This is a good thing ...
By just4U on 6/8/2009 9:47:29 PM , Rating: 2
I kinda like this approach by Apple. It should ensure that Win7 isn't priced higher then Vista was and hmm.. who knows might even cause Microsoft to lower that asking price.

I know it's a bit of a stretch ... but I think it might just happen! :D

RE: This is a good thing ...
By afkrotch on 6/9/2009 4:26:15 AM , Rating: 2
Microsoft isn't going to lower the asking price. Instead, they'll make multiple versions to fit within specific price points.

There are users willing to spend $400 on an OS. Why change that price if they are willing to pay it. Instead, take the same OS, strip some features, call it Home, Home Premium, Business, whatever and sell those for cheaper.

RE: This is a good thing ...
By just4U on 6/9/2009 9:36:25 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah but that's the same model they have now.. If Apple is able to put pressure on them in this regard than we might start to see those lower prices. I am not saying it's going to happen just it's a possibilty.

By nordicpc on 6/8/2009 4:38:48 PM , Rating: 3
And here I thought that Mac OS X was worth something. $29 barely covers the packaging and materials, since I'm sure the box will open in exactly 20 seconds or something.

RE: Amazing
By aharris on 6/8/2009 4:46:34 PM , Rating: 2
Um.. what?

By clovell on 6/8/2009 5:18:11 PM , Rating: 5
> Mr. McDougall wrote, "Vista has failed to catch on with mainstream computer users, while business have shunned it outright."

As opposed to... OSX? Okay, so relative to XP, Vista isn't a 'success'. But who makes XP? Oh, wait, that's right - not you.

New and Improved!
By MonkeyPaw on 6/8/2009 5:11:57 PM , Rating: 2
The company brags that the new OS improves 90 percent of the Leopard base...

Of course one could argue that this isn't a good thing, as this is kinda like admitting that 90% of the Leopard base needed improvement in the first place.

Oh, and the $29 upgrade price also suggests that either these under-the-hood improvements were simply necessary, or that there just aren't many noticable visual improvements to justify the traditional $129 upgrade price. Either way, Apple needs to be careful here, or their customers just might realize how much they have been getting gouged for "upgrades" all these years.

By MarioJP on 6/8/2009 6:02:38 PM , Rating: 2
apple finally feeling the heat about the price wars. This is raise competition that's for sure.

By UNCjigga on 6/8/2009 6:10:45 PM , Rating: 2
Anyone who deludes themselves otherwise is blinded by their hate of all things Apple.

Seriously, anyone who bought Vista Business, Premium or Ultimate retail should be entitled to a free upgrade to the equivalent Windows 7 version. Those who bought a new PC with Vista in 2009 should also get a free upgrade (it can be argued that most who bought a Vista PC in '08 got an "upgrade" to XP from the OEM!)

I don't buy the argument that Apple shouldn't charge for OS upgrades because its "limited". A Windows software license only allows use on one machine, and moving it from one to another is a b1tch due to activation. The Mac OS X license allows it to run on one machine at a time without the activation hassle.

Service pack
By taber on 6/8/2009 6:53:09 PM , Rating: 2
To me, this seems like an admission from Apple that this particular release is more akin to a service pack than a new OS release. They've said from the beginning this is more about increasing performance than adding features. Personally, I still think it's fairly impressive they do that rather than ask their typical price. It also appears the $29 price is just for users upgrading from Leopard, so there may be more than one price point announced eventually:

I have a need for a small form factor PC like the Mac Mini and was waiting to see what the Snow Leopard upgrade path would be like before getting one, this works for me.

It's no wonder why so many Apple fans are Windows haters with the trash talk the keynote included about Vista. That did annoy me.

By LumbergTech on 6/8/2009 7:13:00 PM , Rating: 2
if the machines are sold for a reasonable price, i could see a decent amount of people switching..but its never going to catch on with your bs prices

Service Pack?
By StoveMeister on 6/8/2009 9:48:21 PM , Rating: 2
Referring to all the posters questioning whether Apple is fair to charge for "upgrades" like this, I'd have to say they have a point.
I mean in the timeframe of OSX releases, MS has released 2 (soon to be 3) OS's. XP and Vista. Apple has released SIX (soon to be 7) and charged for all of them. If you add in service packs for XP and Vista, you get close to the same numbers of Operating Systems/Upgrades. So either MS has been really charitable in giving away free operating system upgrades (service packs), or Apple is overcharging by making you pay for theirs?
Which is more likely? :)
Is there really more new in Snow Leopard than there was in say XP SP2?

roll eyes
By Etern205 on 6/9/2009 12:23:09 AM , Rating: 2
Chinese character recognition is also now supported via a drawing interface.

Windows has Chinese support since Windows 98 (can't remember about 95).
Smart move Apple, for trying to keep a ton of feature off your OS and then add it and charge your users making them believe it's a feature worth spending along with their over prices piece of hardware with nothing more than a piece of fruit plaster across their screens.

I wonder if the Chinese version of the OS will now also recognize English characters via a drawing interface and too comes with a charge?

One of These Days
By tech329 on 6/9/2009 2:30:29 AM , Rating: 1
One of these days Apple is going to decide it's time to go head-to-head with Microsoft. OSX or whatever Apple might name it will run on a PC just as Windows does with a PC BIOS underneath. The stage is already set for this with a common hardware plaform. Apple is grooming a generation of users for this and will eventually have to go this route to gain marketshare beyond a certain point. Apple will forever remain 'Apple' unless they make this move to be recognized as a 'PC' operating system. The computing universe is Windows centric because there isn't a truly competitive OS that people know and are comfortable using. Apple will eventually provide and alternative.

RE: One of These Days
By Smilin on 6/9/2009 10:26:12 AM , Rating: 1
As a Microsoft fan I HOPE Apple does this.

Yes, please level the playing field. Let Apple have to actually maintain over a decade of backwards compatibility. Let apple have armies of hackers trying every day to break in. Let apple have to provide a platform where legions of software developers write the best and worst software then make it all remain stable. Let apple have to make a platform that satisfies both a grandmother and a hardcore gamer. Let apple have an ecosystem to be concerned about.

The Mac vs PC commercials where the Mac guy is a beat up lil bitch crying in the corner would be hilarious.

Apple sucks at writing OSes. Do you remember how bad it got with OS 9? Seriously they fell further and further behind until they had to abandon their OS and run crying to FreeBSD for help. That gave them a leap forward but now it's happening again. Microsoft wrote an entire OS (Win7) in the same time it took apple to even tack on 64bit to leopard.

Of Apple/Linux/Windows I've chosen Windows. Linux I have a great deal of respect for. Apple I think is a joke. They are the Paris Hilton of the computer world and should stick to making fashin tech accessories instead of trying to write a real OS.

mac pricing
By Theresa on 6/9/2009 8:02:24 AM , Rating: 2
I have a nearly three year old iMac. I just switched to Windows 7. The iMac is just too closed, doesn't allow upgrades and is slower. The PC system I built cost about $1250 and is a near equivalent to a Mac Pro, only with more memory and a bigger hard disk. osX is more polished and not as buggy and is also much susceptible to viruses. But Windows is faster given better graphics than an iMac. Windows is klutzy. I still switched back because I don't like having a disposable computer with no upgrade path other than buying a new iMac. There's no way I could justify spending $2500 for a Mac Pro.
p.s. my old iMac makes a decent media server so it will be hooked up to the TV and is connected to my network.

$29? Bargain!
By rorackowe on 6/10/2009 6:11:06 PM , Rating: 2
Have a £200 Core Solo Mac Mini from ebay. Cheap, easy to upgrade (memory, processor, SSD, DVD all easily available off the shelf), OS included. Hard to find as neat a PC with the same power, although it is VERY limited (2Gb max RAM and GPU is weak). For day to day surfing etc it's great.

Mainstay of my PC's are homebrew Vista machines: 2 gaming boxs, a HTPC and a just finished Lian-Li WHS with socket M components (just as in the Mac Mini).

I perfer the PC's for their versatility and the ease with which you can add grunt (awful microsoft DRM / licence agreement allowing).

The Mac is great as it's so neat, well made and unobtrusive, the UI is intuitive for a beginner although I am a bit lost once linux command lines rear their ugly heads. No OS nags if you change RAM, your WIFI card, your processor. No phone calls to Microsoft begging for just one more activation.

If I could upgrade my XP laptop and 3 Vista machines with paid-for (and nag free) licences to Windows 7 for $30 I'd be over the moon. Tiger to Snow Leopard for $29 ?? Great. Time to get a home licence and bootcamp / hackintosh the lot.

By Yawn on 6/9/09, Rating: 0
Stupid quote
By crystal clear on 6/9/09, Rating: 0
Snow Leopard FTW!
By Yaron on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By JasonMick on 6/8/2009 4:37:26 PM , Rating: 2
Pirks, is that you?

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Yaron on 6/8/09, Rating: 0
RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By JasonMick on 6/8/2009 4:52:44 PM , Rating: 1
Sorry... I just saw M$oft and a winking smiley in the same paragraph and automatically assumed. My mistake. :)

As much as I disagree that Macs hold any sort of advantage over Win boxes/notebooks, I agree that this is good news for those who already own them and is indeed a sign that Apple is feeling the heat from the negative PR generated by the Microsoft commercials.

I think people rated you down because they took your comment to be some sort of pro-Apple anti-MS insult, but I think you were just making the above statement. Just be careful -- posting "<Apple OS name> FTW" is like punching a ticket for downrating in these parts!

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Yaron on 6/8/2009 5:09:36 PM , Rating: 2
A proper Pirks response includes :))))) OR ;))))) AND "Clown" AND/OR the perpetual Lexus defense. But it's Ok. One should always remember that the entire Daily Tech community is Pirks traumatized.

I agree, Apple is feeling the heat. And I am happy about it. MS did a great job with their laptop hunter ads and kicked Apple were it hurts. I hope they now start kicking their Mac Pro and iMac pricing, maybe we'll see a price drop there as well. Every time I look at the Mac Pro price tag I get angry.

Anyway, I am happy with the entry point MBP 13" and considering a purchase. I am a fan of Mac OS X (best OS IMHO) and I need Keynote as I like doing presentations with it. The small MBP is perfect for me.

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By invidious on 6/8/2009 5:14:16 PM , Rating: 2
If you look at the pricing of the new laptops announced today you will see your hopes have been dashed. $1000 to upgrade from 4gb of ram to 8gb says it all.

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Yaron on 6/8/2009 5:22:48 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, I saw it. But to be honest, I have no use for 8GB at this time, so it does not impact my decision. Anyway, I can get the 8GB ram from OWC if I really need it (costs $637). Last, in a few months the price of 8GB ram will go down and if I need it then, I will upgrade.

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By aharris on 6/8/2009 5:13:50 PM , Rating: 2
Discussion topic for you Jason:

Overall quality of Apple hardware compared to PC hardware.

I'm middle of the road as far as preference, and I try to stay equally experienced with most platforms. This seems to be the one area that makes me think Apple has some justification for pricing their hardware the way they do. Year after year Apple tops the industry quality reviews for their laptops and desktops, whereas PC vendors have a hard time keeping up with the quality control.

Even if you hate OS X, Apple, iPhones, and everything related, if you want reliability in your hardware you almost have to go Apple and ditch the OS for Boot Camp Windows. The closest competitor has frequently been Lenovo, but their support still hasn't been up to par with Apple.


RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By afkrotch on 6/9/2009 5:20:59 AM , Rating: 2
I always hate industry quality reviews. It's more just an editorial on useability, than it is a review on actual quality of the product.

Ever see the long term vehicle reviews, where they take a car and keep it for a month or two. Ya, that gives me a much nicer view of quality than a few benchmarks and using the computer for all of an hour or two.

The Dell I've owned has been top notch. Not a single issue. The Dells we have at work always have issues, but that's cause of stupid users. The hardware itself works perfectly fine, except a couple years down the road when an optical drive or a hdd breaks. Our new HP WX series workstations are much the same.

Support would be hard for me to comment. I called Dell once for my laptop when the keyboard broke. That was my own fault, when I upgrade my processor.

I've called Dell multiple times for our servers and blade servers, but that's gold enterprise support. Much much higher quality support than what an average consumer would get.

As of right now, I build my own desktops and my laptop is an Everex Stepnote. Owned the ultraportable for 2 years and not a single issue with it. Except that one of the batteries can only keep the laptop running for like 30 mins, if not less.

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Goty on 6/8/2009 4:45:03 PM , Rating: 4
$1200 for an entry level laptop is a deal, now?

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Yaron on 6/8/09, Rating: 0
RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Pirks on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Yaron on 6/8/2009 7:47:25 PM , Rating: 1
Miriam mother of god...

Pirks, the problem was never with the fact that Apple has a high quality track pad, excellent build, sharp screen or overall class. It's these endless debates, flaming and trolling you were a part of, with all of them culminating in a prefixed, well known ending (the perpetual Lexus defense). I understood what you were trying to say, but the difference is the way one might present his opinion. Trolling, is a behavior. I hope I am not insulting you in any way. I certainly do not wish to do it.

Furthermore, I am not shy. I just believe that people can debate without trolling and that a person should not share his opinion at all times. Sometimes, it is better to just observe.
With the hope that I am not being rude, I am graciously giving the "torch" back to you.

Live long and prosper \V/

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Pirks on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By eldardude on 6/8/2009 8:29:21 PM , Rating: 2
No one is arguing that Lexus is not of higher quality.

Let me put things straight for you (I'm probably making a mistake now....)

A "regular" car costs 5$ to manufacture, and the company sells it at 10$

A Lexus costs 7$ to manufacture, and the company sells it at 40$

Argue all you want, I'm not going to reply.

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Pirks on 6/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By eddieroolz on 6/9/2009 2:01:45 AM , Rating: 2
Now I'm starting to think that you're just doing this keep your face, Pirks.

I've been on this forums far less than you and most other people, but I already know what a retarded argument you make every time. Jedi? Onslaught? You're not in the crusades, buddy.

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Pirks on 6/9/2009 2:18:54 AM , Rating: 1
Well, if you don't have any sense of humor you better stop reading any holywar threads. You won't enjoy them like people with sense of humor do.

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By eldardude on 6/8/2009 7:23:54 PM , Rating: 2
You know... I've seen a macbook pro myself. Is the build quality better? Sure. Is the screen better? Probably. Is it worth the 800% markup Apple is selling it with? Absolutely not.

At the same price of the MBP I can buy a much nicer Acer for instance.

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Pirks on 6/8/2009 8:56:47 PM , Rating: 2
800% markup Apple is selling it with
You know son, such words are usually going together with some kind of proof, some link to Apple insider information, something like that. Not that I'd ask for a proof from a WinPC fanboy like you, I'm just attracting attention of the forum readers here to your stupid and absolutely baseless hallucinating claims about Apple's "800% markup". You gotta be more careful with your drugs son :))

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By eldardude on 6/8/2009 9:00:00 PM , Rating: 2
Don't cling to specifics. I know I just threw that number around. The point was that Apple's markup is much higher than anyone else's, and the better build and screen doesn't account for it.

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Pirks on 6/8/2009 9:27:05 PM , Rating: 2
Apple's markup is much higher than anyone else's, and the better build and screen doesn't account for it
That's how all industries work, not only Apple. Deal with it son :)) World is a harsh place, I know. You don't tell :)))

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By eldardude on 6/8/2009 9:36:08 PM , Rating: 2
Poor man... *pats head*

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Pirks on 6/8/2009 9:55:48 PM , Rating: 1
Poor man with 800%-marked-up Alienware gamebook :)) Yes, Dell has 800% markups too, and any other WinPC maker. Time to learn how the real life businesses work, son :P

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Scabies on 6/9/2009 12:12:31 AM , Rating: 2
TGIM824 makes a compelling argument with the CyberPowerPC prebuilt computer detailed in response to the uppermost post on this story.

I was unable to find the power supply, processor HSF, or the mouse included in that bundle, but putting the system together using Newegg made for a system that costs $1,047.91 before shipping. The system, built by CyberPowerPC cost him $1159.00 before shipping, but since its a single unit chances are it costs less to ship the system than it does to ship the components piecemeal.

If my math is correct, we are looking at a +10.6% markup (or , with three (albiet inexpensive) components worth of leeway. %800 markup on a Mac is a bit of a hyperbole, but if you want to turn it on to a PC maker, good luck being right.)

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Pirks on 6/9/2009 1:20:43 AM , Rating: 1
Now think again, but this time about Alienware's gaming notebook markup. Or Dell's 800% markup on Adamo. Or Acer's 800% markup on Acer Ferrari. There are tons of overpriced PCs out there with 800% markup, why don't you WinPC loving guys go over to their support forums and let your righteous anger out in there? Might scare a few greedy PC OEMs in the process and talk them into lowering their insane prices, how about that? :P

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By afkrotch on 6/9/2009 5:30:32 AM , Rating: 2
Difference is, PC OEMs offer products with much much lower markets. Not everything they make has an 800% markup.

They give options. If you want to pay 800% more, so be it. They have a product for you. If you don't, no problem. They also have a product for you.

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By eddieroolz on 6/9/2009 2:03:35 AM , Rating: 2
Don't go around calling others "son", you make yourself look like an idiot.

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Pirks on 6/9/2009 3:52:19 AM , Rating: 1
Don't go around crying about Apple's markup, you make yourself look like a virgin Windows fanboy.

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By afkrotch on 6/9/2009 5:25:02 AM , Rating: 2
But it has class.

So does Paris Hilton (supposedly), but doesn't mean I want to touch it.

If I wanted a laptop for looks, I'd get a Dell Precision.

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Pirks on 6/9/2009 12:40:32 PM , Rating: 2
Love HEAVY machinery much? Just like omnicronx above, he also prefers HEAVY computers to the lightweight ones. Probably feels better when you have to flex your MUSCLES to hold your laptop. Soo maaanly :)))

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By jvillaro on 6/8/2009 5:16:09 PM , Rating: 2
At last we see some pro users approach from Apple.

Yes you can certanly enjoy this as a user, but don't for a moment think it's what you described.
It's not "pro-user", it's "anti-microsoft" and "PRO-TRYING-TO-GET-MORE-MARKET-SHARE"

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By Yaron on 6/8/2009 6:11:24 PM , Rating: 1
Pro user does not mean that Apple has suddenly started being nice to their customers. It means exactly what MS is doing with Win7. They are listening to the market in order to eventually sell more units.

RE: Snow Leopard FTW!
By coolkev99 on 6/9/2009 10:57:09 AM , Rating: 2
This entire thread is Epic. Classic Mac vs. PC debate. I'm lovin it just for the sheer spectacle.

By afkrotch on 6/9/2009 5:06:35 AM , Rating: 2
I bet you can count the number of Macs in your town on your hands also. What exactly are you getting at?

My 2000 Dell Inspiron 5000e works fine. My Pentium 4 3.06 ghz works fine. My Athlon XP 3000+ works fine. My Pentium 4 2 ghz works fine. My 486 10 mhz works fine. I have long since upgraded away from them, but I still have most of the parts, if I felt like setting them back up.

The more ppl own a specific product, the more of them you'll see break. If I sell 100 computer, 7 of which are Macs (that's roughly their marketshare), which do you think will fail more often?

By crackedwiseman on 6/10/2009 9:59:16 PM , Rating: 2
How many seven year old laptops do you have that are still running? if you read my actual post, you would see that I have worked on more than seventy-five Macs, working at a local business (i.e. macs in my town). I'm talking about failure rates, not number of failures. You evidently know a little bit of math, but you still have to learn to read.

By crackedwiseman on 6/10/2009 10:03:11 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, I just noticed I said "seventy-fice" in the original post instead of "seventy-five". A typo, but small enough that it should still be understandable ("you mean what I know"). DT really needs an edit button.

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