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Hardware Apple Admits MacBook Slip Up
Tuan Nguyen (Blog) - June 5, 2006 9:11 PM
Print 72 comment(s) - last by Pirks.. on Jun 7 at 5:22 PM
Apple cops up to a manufacturing mistake in MacBooks, but stays silent about MacBook Pro issues

Apple today released a statement on its support site that discusses the newly released family of MacBooks. Over the last several weeks, many have complained that after using their new MacBooks for extended periods of time, the devices became extremely hot and consequently locked up during normal use. The issue of poor thermals has become common place with Apple's Intel-based notebooks although the company has maintained that the MacBooks were operating within "normal" parameters.

Some MacBook owners who took a closer look at their units, however, found that the rear vents of the units had been blocked by a thin piece of plastic. The entire vent was covered and hot air from within the units could not escape. While the problem doesn't stretch across all MacBooks, it appears as though a sizeable number of owners have the problem. Apple's statement regarding the issue is the following:

Some MacBook computers may appear to be running too warm, with the fan running consistently and heat emanating from the top and/or the bottom of the computer. If this happens with your MacBook, check the rear vent of the MacBook to make sure it's not blocked.

Some MacBooks may have left the factory with a thin piece of clear plastic covering the rear vent. This is used in the factory to prevent dust from getting into your computer. If your MacBook has the plastic still over the vent, simply remove and discard it.

Another report claims that the matte paint on black MacBooks have begun to flake off from the undercoat. The problem so far has been limited to just one case.

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Yes they owned up to it for only one reason...
By sxr7171 on 6/5/2006 9:30:22 PM , Rating: 2
It won't cost them a dime in terms of support or replacement. In fact it will save them support dollars because people can now self diagnose and correct the issue.

They'll never own up the MacBook Pro thermal paste issue because it will cost them money to replace/repair the machines.




RE: Yes they owned up to it for only one reason...
By TomZ on 6/5/2006 9:43:45 PM , Rating: 1
It will cost them some real $$$ when some greedy consumer pairs up with some greedy lawyer to file the class action lawsuit. Apple seems to attract these suits lately for some reason.


By kenan921 on 6/5/2006 11:29:09 PM , Rating: 5
Greedy bastards how dare those greedy consumers stand up and fight against Apple. I mean it's Apple they are the good guys. So they paid $1500 for a horribly manufactured product. Take one for the team buddy. It's not like this is Sony or Microsoft. (Patriotic Music in Background) Apple is fighting the good fight. Commie bastards how dare they question commander Jobs products. Greedy bastards.


By Burning Bridges on 6/6/2006 4:20:45 AM , Rating: 2
Mate, are the suing to get things changed for the better?

Or are they going to sue because they can make a pile of money?

tough one, that...


By BladeVenom on 6/6/2006 6:13:42 AM , Rating: 2
The only ones who actually make money from class action lawsuits are the lawyers. The consumer usually get almost nothing, except satisfaction that they were right.


By omrtech on 6/6/2006 1:05:26 PM , Rating: 2
Right on the money Blade.


By akugami on 6/6/2006 4:56:25 PM , Rating: 2
Well...the guys named in the original lawsuit gets maybe $100 to maybe a few thousand dollars. (this largely depend on a case by case basis) but other than that, you're right. Everyone else gets a coupon for X dollars off when you buy more stuff from whichever company lost the lawsuit.


By Dipples Worth on 6/7/2006 10:26:25 AM , Rating: 2
Just so you realize, they don't get "a pile of money" when they file suit for a $1500 computer.

They'll get a fixed machine or their money back.

I mean DUHHHHHHH


RE: Yes they owned up to it for only one reason...
By sxr7171 on 6/6/2006 1:57:25 AM , Rating: 2
Class action lawsuit because they asked you to remove some plastic sheet off a vent? I seriously doubt it even in this litigious society.


By Hare on 6/6/2006 4:34:26 AM , Rating: 2
I think the question was about macbook pro not macbook.


RE: Yes they owned up to it for only one reason...
By TomZ on 6/6/2006 8:45:53 AM , Rating: 2
If you remember, Apple had a class action lawsuit against them for the iPod whose face was too easily scratched. That is the reason for my cynical comment.


By sxr7171 on 6/6/2006 5:07:39 PM , Rating: 2
Alright, good one then.


RE: Yes they owned up to it for only one reason...
By dude on 6/6/2006 6:33:36 AM , Rating: 2
Very true, as you've seen with all class action lawsuits, the lawyers walk away happy, and the persons suing gets a pat in the back. Oh yeah, the consumers also gets a small "rebate" or "discount" toward certain products. Yee-haw!

Anyways, has anyone realized Apple does not make these laptops? Has anyone even have the idea cross their minds that the manufacture messed up? Shouldn't the blame be on Quanta, Compel, Asus, and such companies?


By joust on 6/6/2006 3:26:02 PM , Rating: 2
Farming out production to other countries does not absolve Apple of guilt in this. They have oversight. They designed and advertise the product. They put their logo on it, and the machines are even called Macs or Apples. The consumer typically buys the product from an Apple store. You're making a completely nonsensical point. Apple controls who does the manufacturing -- Apple chose those shoddy fabs and should live with the consequences.

Yeah, greedy, vicious consumers, suing Apple. Unbelievable. They only shelled out two grand for their product. And they only lost countless hours of productivity on phone support, waiting for their laptops to work. They're totally overcompensated; that $15 will really overpay them for the 8 hours of wasted time.


By kelmon on 6/6/2006 3:51:11 AM , Rating: 2
Last time I saw information on it the thermal paste issue had been debunked. An article by O'Reilly (http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2006/05/23/t...) took 2 MacBook Pros, measured their temperature and then "corrected" the thermal paste on one and measured the resulting difference - a mighty 2 degrees. If for nothing else this article is interesting in that you get to see the problem and general disassembly of one of these notebooks. What they did note, however, on the 3rd page of the article, is that software changes to the power management system governing the use of the fans could well make the necessary difference. A cock-up during reassembly resulted in the fans running constantly and the machine itself remained cold even under a heavy load. The conclusion made from this was that Apple has elected, at this time, to keep the machines quiet at the expense of increased heat. Whether this is the right decision remains to be seen (a friend with a new MacBook Pro reports no heat issues with his and I'll be buying one later this year) but at least it is easy to fix with a simple software release rather than a trip back to the factory.

To be honest, I'd be interested to see the quality of thermal paste application in other mass produced laptops for comparison.


Squandering it's position
By joust on 6/5/2006 10:13:30 PM , Rating: 3
With users fed up with Spyware/Adware, hateful of Microsoft, wary of Dell's customer service, loving the iPod, misunderstanding AMD, etc., you would have thought Apple would have seized the day.

It sure hasn't taken Apple long to squander such great opportunity. Such opportunity will be gone once Vista arrives and retaliates against, (perhaps utterly crushing) OSX. Where will Apple be then?




RE: Squandering it's position
By hiscross on 6/5/2006 10:52:51 PM , Rating: 2
Yep, a piece of plastic will shut Apple down. Like PC's never have any issues. Please show me the Dell battery fires and I'll buy a couple.


RE: Squandering it's position
By joust on 6/6/2006 2:06:35 AM , Rating: 2
I think you missed my point entirely. I am not launching a broadside attack on Apple. All I am doing is pointing out the fact that now is one of the most favorable climates I have seen for Apple in a long time -- and they are not cashing in.

They made a mistake with the thermal paste. Big deal -- as computer enthusiasts we see QA issues all the time. The problem, however, was their response. They sued those who broke the story because they were embarassed. Way to win over the customers and enthusiasts the RIAA way. That'll really gain our hearts, minds, and goodwill.

It took them forever to respond and admit they screwed up on the thermal grease issue. Doesn't that sound like Microsoft two to three years ago on security issues? Yup. And just like Microsoft, they only took action when besieged and overwhelmed by angry, frustrated customers demanding action.

You would think by now they would have fixed all these thermal QA problems. If Apple really wants to dominate the notebook segment, they need to start cleaning up now . I am becoming extremely skeptical of this supposed meteoric comeback of Apple everyone keeps foretelling. All I see coming is a lackluster burnout.


RE: Squandering it's position
By sxr7171 on 6/6/2006 2:14:28 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, very well said. Mistakes happen, but the response is what differentiates a great company from a bad one.

And, yes I was very seriously considering (even excited to be) picking up a MacBook Pro this fall, but no way will I buy a lemon like that. I'll just get a nice X60 Thinkpad, because I know it will work and should something go wrong it will be taken care of.


RE: Squandering it's position
By Pirks on 6/5/2006 10:58:56 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Where will Apple be then?
It'll stick around offering nicely integrated "tiny mp3 player + small form factor computer" bundles with which you don't have to install drivers when you buy new hardware and do any other maintenance/antivirii/antiadware/spyware/etc etc. When MS and others reach same level of slickness, comfort and integration (which may never happen, who knows) Apple will be far ahead again, just like they were this year or last year... when it was OS X versus WinXP. MS will always play catch up it seems, for reasons not directly related to computing power or pixels per shader... i.e. for reasons not related to or understood by my majority of AT/DailyTech readers. And I don't include crappy MacBooks and such in the picture, cause other manufacturers do same stuff so Apple does not differentiate itself with regard to this.


RE: Squandering it's position
By TomZ on 6/5/2006 11:10:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
MS will always play catch up it seems, for reasons not directly related to computing power or pixels per shader... i.e. for reasons not related to or understood by my majority of AT/DailyTech readers.

WTF are you talking about?


RE: Squandering it's position
By Pirks on 6/6/2006 1:11:17 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
WTF are you talking about?
I'm talking about other reasons to buy a home computer than playing latest FPS or enjoying flashy lighted-up DFI mobo behind case side window. I'm also talking about how MS is catching up to Apple in this area, trying to bring feature set of Vista on par with Tiger. I think this doesn't make much sense as Apple will move on from Tiger to somewhere else while MS users will stick with the same OS for another 6 years or so. All this convenience/integration/Tiger feature set blah blah stuff is irrelevant to AT/Enthusiast community. This is what I'm talking about. It's very easy to grasp when one pops his/her head out of MHz/shaders/OC'ing bubble and starts thinking about general picture... or call it computing for American noobs, sounds more appropriate.


RE: Squandering it's position
By sxr7171 on 6/6/2006 2:19:11 AM , Rating: 2
All very nice stuff indeed - for 3% of computer users. In other words these American noobs would rather buy a Dell and that isn't changing any time soon with these quality control issues.


RE: Squandering it's position
By Pirks on 6/6/2006 10:39:54 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
for 3% of computer users
Which was what? 1% just a year ago? Wanna get the same tripling of market share for say Linux or Solaris or any other OS in just one year? Dream on.


RE: Squandering it's position
By Snuffalufagus on 6/5/2006 11:51:32 PM , Rating: 2
lol - we should all go and wait for what Steve tells us we should think next :)


RE: Squandering it's position
By Pirks on 6/6/2006 1:18:07 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
we should all go and wait for what Steve tells us we should think next
Don't know about you, if you want to listen to some Steve or Johnny or Marv or whoever's on your block - go ahead, who cares whom you listen to. I'm talking about Apple and general trend in home computing, especially the market segment for technically illiterate users (i.e. general public). There's some interesting stuff going on, but don't pay attention to that, there's that Johhny or whatshisname you suggest to listen to, so pass along please :-)


RE: Squandering it's position
By sxr7171 on 6/6/2006 2:23:45 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, just what the general public needs - defective expensive hardware. Just great.

Oh! by the way congratulations on getting scroll ability recently! The general public could have lived without it, but are now greatful that Steve said they can now scroll by just turning a ball on the mouse itself!


RE: Squandering it's position
By Pirks on 6/6/2006 11:32:07 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Yeah, just what the general public needs - defective expensive hardware. Just great.


Say that to any other manufacturer who sells defective products, why are focusing on Apple only? I'm replacing my Archos Gmini XS100 third time without any success, they always send me defective players back. I know what real defective hardware is, and I even heard of defective Mini from one of my friends, which he replaced in the store the day after buying it. I start putting Apple on the same crappy level of customer service as you do when they REALLY start to screw up, this means like Archos for example - when I come back to their store and they hand me broken Mini THREE times, just like Archos did with their product. Until then - this is not an argument for me. Some broken hardware is always out there, be it from Apple, Alienware, IBM, Dell or [put your favorite hardware company here].

quote:
by the way congratulations on getting scroll ability recently. The general public could have lived without it, but are now greatful that Steve said they can now scroll by just turning a ball on the mouse itself.


Wake me up when Dell and other notebook guys start including two-finger touchpad scroll feature. Then maybe I consider them too, when I need a Core Duo portable.

Or wake me up after you realize that you could have used scrolling in Mac OS X with any generic PC USB mouse with a wheel, he-he :-)

Until then - sleep goood :-)


RE: Squandering it's position
By Zelvek on 6/6/2006 8:10:09 PM , Rating: 2
And in turn for this "slickness" one sacrifices third party devices almost entirly. There are no killer games on mac all the software that launches on it comes out 6 mounths to a year after it comes out on PC and everything is more expensive. As for their great OS all they did was buy someone elses and slap their face on it. (yes I know that Gates didn't make dos he bought it after he had already sold it). Sure Apple products are all made by other companies but they own the rights to them and therefore are taotaly responsable for any problems with them if something goes wroung they tell the manufacture to fix it or else. I don't hate Apple I use to have them back on OS 7 and 9 but the response they have to problems that arise is down right rude and I will not buy a product from a company that tells me there is no problem when I see people everywhere with it and does it all the time.


RE: Squandering it's position
By Pirks on 6/6/2006 9:42:13 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
And in turn for this "slickness" one sacrifices third party devices almost entirely
The fact that he/she cannot install some cheap obscure chinese hardware from newegg doesn't play any siginificant role for an average Mac user.
quote:
There are no killer games on mac
Mac users gladly pay this price - with killer games come Windows virii/spyware and Windows maintenance/drivers/etc, and for those people who don't need killer games Mac is hence a better choice.
quote:
all the software that launches on it comes out 6 mounths to a year after it comes out on PC and everything is more expensive
LOL, very funny and stupid lie :-))) a) Vista is not cheaper than Mac OS X, rather vice versa and b) Vista comes MUCH later than Mac OS X with all its neat features like Spotlight. So you lied twice here :-)
quote:
As for their great OS all they did was buy someone elses and slap their face on it.
You might want to peruse Wikipedia and read about Mac OS X roots and what foundation it was built on, to understand the extent of stupidity in this particular comment. They didn't buy someone else's OS and the rest is in Wikipedia - read it and this will open your eyes (maybe :-)


By proamerica on 6/5/2006 11:09:15 PM , Rating: 2
They can use Intel all day long, its not going to make OSX as fast as windows. Thats my main complaint. I like the MacBook's design, I even like the look and feel of OSX, but the speed factor is a lost cause.

Maybe, MAYBE its that the software being written for OSX platform just isn't as heavily optimised as its windows counterparts. Whatever it is office for the Mac is painfully slow. My girlfriend has a 2 year old Dell that runs office 2003 perfectly fine, a brand new macbook runs office quite slowly by comparison. Everything takes a moment on the mac, every menu click, not a long moment, but a little hesitation. The good news is that the hesitation is predictable and repeatable so you get used to it. Still, something is dreadfully wrong when you can't smoothly scroll a page of text on a brand new computer.

Overall, I have to wonder why a person would bother with a MacBook at this point. You get the exact same hardware running a slower OS with generally weak 3rd party support and plenty of bugs. Owning a mac must be a fetish for masochists, maybe thats where the fanatical loyalty comes from.





By Vertigo101 on 6/5/2006 11:27:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Overall, I have to wonder why a person would bother with a MacBook at this point. You get the exact same hardware running a slower OS with generally weak 3rd party support and plenty of bugs. Owning a mac must be a fetish for masochists, maybe thats where the fanatical loyalty comes from.


I couldn't have said it better myself.

It's always seemd like Macs were for people who couldn't use a PC. Maybe the widespread availability of software for Windows is too much for some people to handle.


By Pirks on 6/6/2006 1:43:07 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's always seemd like Macs were for people who couldn't use a PC. Maybe the widespread availability of software for Windows is too much for some people to handle.
Yeah, you're pretty much nailed most of them. From my experience (I have a couple of Mac users nearby :-) they choose Mac just because "it works". I know, I know - Windows PC also works, but Mac is a little different here - read on.

So their argument is something like that - you buy a Mac and that's it, you can do basic stuff with it like organize your photos nicely, you know, plug in your iPod, plug in your DV camera and it neatly makes DVD for you and so on and so forth. While you can do all the same stuff on Windows, you're pretty much on your own. You gotta get the software, install the drivers, think about firewalls and antivirii and antispam and this boils down to a hefty amount of work to setup your Windows PC. I mean, for me it's routine, it's in my spinal cord, but for them, for general public - heck no. That's why Apple's stock is flying and that's why it's gonna fly even higher - not because Jobs is genius, but just becuase his competitors are much dumber and slower moving than him. Dell is only now started thinking about maybe hmmm just maybe we should you know try a couple of retail stores and see what happens, eh? Gosh, with such slow movers as Microsoft and Dell and others Mr. Jobs has nothing to worry about. Somehow those other players still don't get it - the noobs are where the money is, not the overclockers and other AT reading techies. Yes, you can build company like Alienware or Voodoo PC on selling Quad SLI rigs to selected few, but that's your limit. Since there are much more noobs than techies, Apple will always make much more money than any Alienware or other overclocker-AnandTech-reader-oriented PC builder. And since Apple computers are much more user friendly than Dell PCs and other generic PCs - you just wait. All this Dell retail stores story - all this is just the beginning.


By sxr7171 on 6/6/2006 2:37:33 AM , Rating: 2
Apple stock is flying for one reason only: iPod. That's it. They may have converted a few PC users but not that many.


By Pirks on 6/6/2006 12:12:59 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Apple stock is flying for one reason only: iPod. That's it. They may have converted a few PC users but not that many.
I agree, but iPod has similar slick integration with iMac/iTunes/iTMS and that's what sets all their products apart - they are designe dto work together well, be it iPod or iLife or iMac - it's kind of nice well integrated and well designed machine for common folk, not for technically more proficient people who know all the Windows driver sites, all the fresh antivirii updates, latest hardware news and such. So I would say here: iPod propelled them high, but they apply absolutely the same ideology to all their other products, so if this ideology propelled iPod, it will likely propel their other stuff, like Macs and Mac OS X.


By joust on 6/6/2006 4:01:41 AM , Rating: 2
I think you fail to realize that Apple is making pretty awful mistakes too, especially on the PR front. (see my posts above). Apple can't afford to keep doing this if it wants to grow tremendously.

quote:
That's why Apple's stock is flying and that's why it's gonna fly even higher - not because Jobs is genius, but just becuase his competitors are much dumber and slower moving than him.

I think this is where you're underestimating Microsoft. As things stand today MS sees the clear and present danger -- and is hauling ass. MS shines brightest when under the gun. Don't believe me? Try out the beta software (Office 2k7, Vista, Monad, IE7, etc etc). Read up on DX10. You'll see what I'm saying.

As for Dell, Dell's decline is more the fault of both pairing with Intel and the ever commodization of notebooks. Dell needs a new new killer product (with high margins) which it has not yet found.

As for the "it just works" mantra, you're definitely right. If you buy an Apple computer, with an Apple OS, with Apple peripherals plugged in via Apple cables linked through Apple proprietary connectors, bought through the Apple store, I certainly hope it would "just work." (To be fair, Apple does accommodate non-Apple products very well in a streamlined manner.)

But that is a matter of preference: streamlining versus flexibility (and features vs. simplicity). It's a value judgement that one person cannot make for another. I personally will go through an extra step if it means I can use whatever hardware I want. I'm fine with more features at the cost of added complexity.

The "noobs," to which you refer, (by which you mean, "ordinary people,") have another more compelling consideration. Money. They're not going to blow $4,000 on a gaming rig (after all, there are things in this world such as mortgages, taxes, paying for childen's college, etc). They'll look at an Apple, see that it costs $200+ more than a Windows-based machine. (That $200 figure is generous; believe me, once the generic laptop manufacturers start going full-steam like they did against Dell, the gap will widen). Which will most choose?


By Pirks on 6/6/2006 1:29:10 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I think you fail to realize that Apple is making pretty awful mistakes too, especially on the PR front. (see my posts above). Apple can't afford to keep doing this if it wants to grow tremendously.
Honestly, I don't think MS can afford to promise new heaven and then deliver refreshed XP instead either. They said - oh, you'll have this neat WinFS and all the other cool things and blah blah and then what? Cutting everything out of it. You call this PR success? I call this real bullshit, that's what it is. If MS can NOT deliver what they promised WHEN they promised - they better keep their mouth shut. Screaming "yehee we will give you Blackomb Da OZ Of Da FUTURE right next year!!!" and then delivering this chopped thing called Vista - this just makes me sick. It would be sooo much better if they adopted the Apple tactics of keeping mouth shut until the product is there, and not promising what they can't do, sheesh.

quote:
I think this is where you're underestimating Microsoft. As things stand today MS sees the clear and present danger -- and is hauling ass. MS shines brightest when under the gun. Don't believe me? Try out the beta software (Office 2k7, Vista, Monad, IE7, etc etc). Read up on DX10. You'll see what I'm saying.
Besides gaming, where MS was always uberstrong, and Office of course, their other efforts look more like hurried answer to Apple's targeted attacks on the most valued retail consumer - noobs with fat wallets. It's from these fat yuppies that MS launched itself into the corporate market, and it does not want another company to follow its steps. That's why hurried Vista release, restart of IE development etc. Nobody at MS wants common folk to realize that OS X is just much more convenient, user-friendly and powerful (due to Unix underpinnings) reincarnation ow Windows NT, and hence switch to it just like they switched from Win 95 to NT sometime ago. What's funny is that MS still does not quite get why Apple threatens its turf. MS and Dell and others just can't yet grasp the idea of building nice Mac-like PC brand with Mac-level supported subset of hardware (plug it in and nothing else, OS does ALL the rest) and Mac-level of nice software included - DVD mastering, equivalents of iTunes, iWeb and other basic stuff you get the Mac with (and have to buy separately on a Windows PC). Vista will give us more basic software, but that's it - all the driver search, antivirii and everything else Windows users just love - all this will stay with us in Vista, Blackomb and probably forever (unless Apple manages to grab much more market than they have now and Dell & Co start moving their butts as well, not only MS)
quote:
As for the "it just works" mantra, you're definitely right. If you buy an Apple computer, with an Apple OS, with Apple peripherals plugged in via Apple cables linked through Apple proprietary connectors, bought through the Apple store, I certainly hope it would "just work." (To be fair, Apple does accommodate non-Apple products very well in a streamlined manner.)
See, someone prevents PC builders to go the same way. Someone prevents them to build a Windows PC that just works - you know, finds its own drivers and updates itself, and does not ask for any administration skills. Any big PC builder can do that _ Vista plus proper hardware support from the builder teamed with MS unified hardware/software update site will do the same Mac-like magic. It's just that Apple now has too little marketshare to let most people realize that computers may not require administration skills. Most common folk got used to Windows, so they know - "if you get new hardware you're on your own - do your maintenance chore or die". Once they realize there's an alternative - pay Apple and forget those chores - many go this way, this is just eases their burden with maintaining Windows. I'd say when (and if) sufficiently large crowd of people realizes this different level of thinking about common/home computing - then Apple starts to REALLY pressure competitors. But not now - now many people think that maintaining their PC - looking for drivers and antivirii and other extra software and so on when working with PC is a _normal_ thing. This is slowly changing, though.
quote:
But that is a matter of preference: streamlining versus flexibility (and features vs. simplicity). It's a value judgement that one person cannot make for another. I personally will go through an extra step if it means I can use whatever hardware I want. I'm fine with more features at the cost of added complexity.
I build my PCs on my own, why waste money paying some Dell folk or other chinese peasants working hard for Apple and other brands. This, still, does not remove the existence of alternative - techie-oriented PC or noob-friendly Mac. The problem is - no as noob-fiendly PCs yet. As no techie-friendly cheap Macs either - both markets are too separated, let's hope they converge in the future.
quote:
They'll look at an Apple, see that it costs $200+ more than a Windows-based machine. (That $200 figure is generous; believe me, once the generic laptop manufacturers start going full-steam like they did against Dell, the gap will widen). Which will most choose?
Your question is a no-brainer IF and only if this +$200 Mac is exactly the same as your generic/Dell PC. Now, go to the next door store and look at that generic PC middle tower. Then go to Apple store and compare it with say Mac Mini with same hardware inside. You will not pay extra for that (design/convencience/size/noise/etc - all these noob things) but your next door noob might as well pay... if he/she needs just generic maintenance free home computer for Web/DVD/email/simple office work/simple gaming (not latest 3D FPS of course) and such.


By joust on 6/6/2006 3:58:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
They said - oh, you'll have this neat WinFS and all the other cool things and blah blah and then what? Cutting everything out of it.

You should evaluate Vista on its own merits. Just because Microsoft retracted many of its promises doesn't mean Vista will suck by default. I'll be the first to say MS made a mistake in promising the moon on Vista. But you must look past that, just as I look past Apple occasionally underperforming on its promises.

quote:
MS and Dell and others just can't yet grasp the idea of building nice Mac-like PC brand with Mac-level supported subset of hardware (plug it in and nothing else, OS does ALL the rest)

Again. This a feature you love. This is not a feature I love. Windows certainly could streamline everything, but then you lose control. You lose features. Automation makes it harder to configure things the exact way you want it. You're touting automation as a feature everyone wants. I disagree. I think most users are unwilling to give up control and features. I'm not advocating the extremes of control; I want _some_ convenience (as in, not Linux).

quote:
Someone prevents them to build a Windows PC that just works - you know, finds its own drivers and updates itself, and does not ask for any administration skills.

I am actually impressed with how easy a time users have with installing drivers. It doesn't require administration skills. They seem to have few problems inserting the driver CD, clicking OK and installing the software, and then plugging in the device. This routine is done once in under 2 minutes and it's over. You make it seem like pulling teeth. Most people do not build their own PCs. Multiple driver installs in a single seating are rare.

quote:
This, still, does not remove the existence of alternative - techie-oriented PC or noob-friendly Mac.

PCs are ready out-of-box if bought from a manufacturer. People pay extra for that service; it's just as "noob-friendly" as a Mac. Too bad Apple doesn't sell its OS separately to appease techies like us.

quote:
Then go to Apple store and compare it with say Mac Mini with same hardware inside. You will not pay extra for that.

Apple just can't compete against e-Machines and other bottom-of-the-barrel vendors in terms of price. Some people aren't looking for full-blown workhorses and will pay bottom-dollar for a PC every time. That's just the reality Apple faces.


By Pirks on 6/6/2006 10:40:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Just because Microsoft retracted many of its promises doesn't mean Vista will suck by default. I'll be the first to say MS made a mistake in promising the moon on Vista. But you must look past that, just as I look past Apple occasionally underperforming on its promises.
You said Apple does horrible PR mistakes, and I said Microsoft does even worse mistakes, like this sickening Vista features story. It was not about Vista vs OS X, it was about screwed mindless PR at both companies.
quote:
Windows certainly could streamline everything, but then you lose control. You lose features. Automation makes it harder to configure things the exact way you want it. You're touting automation as a feature everyone wants. I disagree. I think most users are unwilling to give up control and features.
Is someone/something preventing, say, Vista, from silently accepting any new hardware the user plugs into it, silently going to MS driver repository online, silently getting stuff from there, installing it with reasonable defaults (say, not for best performance, and not to be the slowest either, somewhere in the middle), adding some control panel widget for configuring it later, if the user wishes so, and maybe some commandline utils for the real techies? Tell me, please, who in their right mind would not help user with such nice hardware automation WHILE ALSO giving him all the controls he wants in the control panel? What is wrong in this approach (which I just cloned from the way Mac OS X works internally with new hardware)? Why do you inisist that installing hardware automatically so that is JUST WORKS, without ANYTHING on user part, is automatically defies user any control? So you're saying: ok, we can make this automatic hardware setup in Vista and then AUTOMAGICALLY we cannot use control panel widgets and command line configuration utilities anymore! What a funny nonsense... Please explain what's wrong in my approach, I'm really curious where I'm wrong with regard to this stuff.
quote:
I am actually impressed with how easy a time users have with installing drivers. It doesn't require administration skills. They seem to have few problems inserting the driver CD, clicking OK and installing the software, and then plugging in the device. This routine is done once in under 2 minutes and it's over. You make it seem like pulling teeth.
No, I'm not saying it's a huge issue for me or for you but I'm not sure about granny next door :-) Anyway, if OS X can work with new hardware this seamless/silent way, while also giving a fair amount of control (there are also drivers and control panels in OS X, you know :-) then Vista also can... well, ok, not with all hardware, only with a certified hardware, just like Apple does in OS X. Right, you're not interested, I'm not much either, although I'd like to see Vista do it that way, seems nice and polished way to do things... but for common folk who don't know much about computers such an approach is definitely a boon. Don't you agree?
quote:
PCs are ready out-of-box if bought from a manufacturer. People pay extra for that service; it's just as "noob-friendly" as a Mac. Too bad Apple doesn't sell its OS separately to appease techies like us.
Yep, PCs from major brands are better integrated than self-assembled Newegg boxes, that's for sure. But still you'll get more polished and more feature loaded, more elegant and better looking computer if you buy a Mac, especially iMac or Mini, compared with any generic PC brand like HP or Dell for same money. It's just that Apple manufactures everything, and software too, so they design the whole package from the start, not like slapped together generic looking beige HP or Dell towers. Hence the higher level of polish and elegance in Macs - this is why Mac zealots are such a crazy crowd :-))) I mean, they have perfectly serious reasons to be such clowns :)
quote:
Apple just can't compete against e-Machines and other bottom-of-the-barrel vendors in terms of price. Some people aren't looking for full-blown workhorses and will pay bottom-dollar for a PC every time. That's just the reality Apple faces
You're absolutely right here, this is why I'd rather buy Inspiron 120B than any Apple thing - they just can't and won't sell anything notebookish below $1000 while B120 if half that. BUT! If you compare PCs with same configuration (!) then you'll notice that while Dell and iMac with same hardware inside cost the same (!) you definitely must be some non-standard thinking person, you know, to buy $1500 ugly looking Dell over $1500 Intel iMac with same hardware inside, which even runs your Windows with its killer games and virii and everything. So, while you are right with regard to budget segment of PC market, you missed it for upper and middle-class market segments - for most of the purposes in computing, excluding some extreme Quad SLI gaming, and stuff like that, Apple beats crap out of Dells and similar generic boxes with their design and polish, for the same price and same hardware inside! Just go to Dell.com, compare prices with similar hardware configurations of iMacs or MacBooks on Apple.com and see for yourself.


By vexingv on 6/5/2006 11:48:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
a brand new macbook runs office quite slowly by comparison.


that's because office isn't a native app yet; it's being run with an emulation layer via rosetta. once microsoft makes a version thats a universal binary (probably in the next office release, or service pack), office should feel faster. office is indeed faster on a g4/g5 than an intel mac for this reason. though from my experience on a g4 powerbook, office on windows is faster, though the last few service packs for office mac 2004 has made it noticeably faster.


By Wwhat on 6/6/2006 12:00:48 AM , Rating: 2
OR you can be smart and get OpenOffice instead.
it works and is free and is less bloated, openoffice.org


By TomZ on 6/6/2006 12:02:57 AM , Rating: 2
Ha, ha - less bloated than what? The Michelan Man?

OOo is a horribly bloated application. Who are you kidding?


By joust on 6/6/2006 4:05:21 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly right. Just google "open office speed microsoft" and you will see OOo is bad. Disgustingly bad in comparison to MS Office.


By sxr7171 on 6/6/2006 2:34:56 AM , Rating: 2
Good call! They could come out with some great accessories like firewire iPaddles which have high current shock capability or an iSpeculum that you can remotely manipulate with live video or how about an iNippleClamp that communicates wirelessly with your iPod and sqeezes harder when you listen to faster songs?


By psychobriggsy on 6/6/2006 7:25:23 AM , Rating: 2
Office is a PowerPC application, and it runs quite nicely on PowerPC machines.

Slow start up time on Intel is due to the software having to be translated by Rosetta.

So in essence, you're saying that Mac OS X is slow because of Microsoft's software not being updated to be Intel native yet. You could easily blame the software writer - Microsoft. Or you could blame the transition to Intel by Apple - I'm not buying a first revision Intel Mac because Apple do seem to use users as testers sometimes.

In actual benchmarks (Mac OS X vs. Windows on the same hardware) the only advantage Windows has is in 3D applications (e.g., Cinebench OpenGL) which has been a weak point for Apple for a long time. In other tests they were pretty much neck and neck, indeed Mac OS X won quite a few. Is it fair to test a 2005 OS against a 2001 OS though? Let's wait for Vista and see how things are then!


Umm, Steve? We have a problem
By Trisped on 6/6/2006 2:45:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Even though the new firmware update prevents me from checking the temperature
"I know," said Steve, "lets just stop them from being able to check the temperature! Then they won't know it is over heating."

So, lets see... The fessed up to one problem, how many more have users reported, yet are not being fixed? Why has no one sued Apple over faulty products? Seriously, they tried to sue over the XBox360 (what ever happened to that anyways?) and yet everyone turns a blind eye to Apple.




RE: Umm, Steve? We have a problem
By TomZ on 6/6/2006 3:06:32 PM , Rating: 2
Better alternatives to lawsuits: return for refund, return for repair/service, don't buy Apple products, tell your friends/family to not buy Apple, etc.

A lawsuit should be the last resort when there are monetary damages, e.g., my Apple notebook catches fire and burns my house down. I don't understand the legal/moral/ethical justification for other types of lawsuits claiming defective products.

Note, I'm just using Apple here as an example. My comments apply to all manufacturers.


RE: Umm, Steve? We have a problem
By joust on 6/6/2006 4:21:27 PM , Rating: 2
You have defective product liability because there's a reasonable expectation that the product one is buying will actually work. If I buy a laptop, I am not buying a lump of plastic and metal in the shape of a laptop. I am buying a laptop, goddamnit, and it had better work.

This would be all fine and good if all manufacturers lived up to their promises in good faith. The threat of lawsuits keeps manufacturers from working on unreasonable terms.

Could you imagine having no recourse if, for instance, you mailed in your 1 year-old laptop for repair and got it back 6 months later? Wouldn't you be a little pissed off? You've already plunked down a grand or two. It's too little, too late.

Additionally, a manufacturer that creates defective products is externalizing costs. If they sold a laptop for $1,000, but the user spent $300 worth in lost wages or repairs trying to get the laptop fixed, the user really ended up paying $1,300. The honest manufacturers who sell working laptops for $1,100 lose out. (This situation creates a race to the bottom -- whoever can sell the crappiest, cheapest hardware to make a quick buck and pull out wins!)

You certainly have a good point on the justification behind lawsuits. Sometimes the system is abused by unscrupulous lawyers and clients, but for the most part liability makes for better quality products.


RE: Umm, Steve? We have a problem
By TomZ on 6/6/2006 4:52:14 PM , Rating: 2
I think you're right if you buy a laptop and the thing simply doesn't work. That would clearly fall into the category you're talking about, which I would consider "grossly defective." Obviously the manufacturer and/or reseller is going to take care of this type of problem, right?

But the poster above talked about the temperature monitor being disabled. Other recent suits against Apple were things like the iPod Nano gets scratched too easily, or the iPod volume was too loud, or the battery didn't last as long as expected, etc. I don't consider these "gross defects" that would cause financial loss. It is in this latter case that I think a lawsuit is inappropriate.


RE: Umm, Steve? We have a problem
By joust on 6/6/2006 7:52:46 PM , Rating: 2
I can definitely see where you're coming from. Frivolous lawsuits, companies besieged by bullshit claims, and perhaps consumers being a little too immature about tiny scratches.

But there is a huge chasm between being trivially defective and grossly defective. What distinguishes two roughly equal (spec-wise and price-wise) laptops? Arguably, one might be drawn to the features of a specific product. For example, my T40 has little ergonomic features such as a touchpoint/trackpad, keyboard light, and user removeable drives.

What if said features were broken? You might say, "well, it's not that onerous to use a mouse." I would agree. But that's not the point. While I did not buy my laptop only for these features, and such features are not absolutely critical to the functioning of my laptop, I don't think it unreasonable to expect features will work as advertised.

Furthermore, where will you draw the line? Is the light for the keyboard not enough? what about the broken trackpad? What about some keys malfunctioning? What about color splatches and banding on the screen? After all, I could use an external monitor or just deal with it. (I can just recharge my mp3 player more often and bring a power cable in the case of the battery suit).

Back to the store, when evaluating the true value of a product, I can't call upon a team of engineers to assess the durability and logevity of a laptop. Often in retail environments it is difficult to open a box up, boot up the pc, and then start running a battery of tests to make sure this particular laptop works to spec. (especially if I shop online! Especially if the consumer, god forbid, doesn't read DailyTech all day!). Thus as a consumer I am at a clear disadvantage.

I always find it amusing that people envision companies as pinatas being beaten for candy when sued. I don't think this is the case. The cost of litigation, replacement, and successful class-action lawsuits are built into the product already. The price is x percentage higher (which sucks). In exchange, however, this acts as a form of insurance where the consumers who are ripped off can be protected. The company pockets the cash as a reward for quality merchandise. This is an incentive for better products.

Does a defect have to result in a financial loss to recover? Why do you buy an iPod in the first place? I don't think you plan to make money with it. You're buying it for the enjoyment it brings you. A defective battery makes for less enjoyment, meaning the iPod should have been valued lower, but there was no way you could have known that when buying!


RE: Umm, Steve? We have a problem
By TomZ on 6/6/2006 8:24:20 PM , Rating: 2
I don't really want to get into a long-winded debate, but I would like to say that the "middle ground" that you talked about is well-addressed by the warranty. If any of the things break while in warranty, then you have to deal with the hassle of a return. But that also costs the manufacturer real money, so it is in their best interest to avoid such problems in the first place.

Finally, if things in the "middle ground" fail, then I'm afraid we consumers are stuck picking up the tab for that.

I think this is all common sense, and doesn't involve any lawyers for the most part.


RE: Umm, Steve? We have a problem
By sxr7171 on 6/6/2006 5:14:35 PM , Rating: 2
I agree it should be a last resort because as is said time and again, only the lawyers win after a class action suit. So pursuing options where you might actually have your problem fixed would certainly be better for the consumer in cases where the problem is fixable (and in this case it is as nobody's house burnt down yet).

However when all options have been exhausted and you're at a point where you simply don't care about a resolution but you just want to stick it to those bastards.


RE: Umm, Steve? We have a problem
By joust on 6/6/2006 7:57:58 PM , Rating: 2
Apple refused to replace the batteries without a fee. I don't see what else a consumer could do.


Some thoughts.
By akugami on 6/6/2006 5:22:53 PM , Rating: 2
Some mac hate in some of the posts. Was there something wrong with the early Macintoshs aside from their super high prices? Mac's until Win95 had the better OS. Overall speed of the machines were arguable. This was before Intel had to get on it's rear end and work hard after the emergence of AMD. But the MacOS was clearly the better of the two OS's at the time.

I owned a PC and a Mac at the time so I know the differences between the two. Useability and features of the GUI was clearly better on the Mac. Software support has and probably always will favor the PC. I had both until Win95 was released and moved exclusively to Win95 and then WinXP because the GUI gap was shortened to such a degree that it no longer made sense for me to buy a much more expensive computer for similar functionality and similar ease of use.

Most people praise Win95 and WinXP but forget that while MS did develope improvements to the GUI which even Apple has copied, most of the underlying foundation of all GUI's today were built by Apple. Don't give me the Xerox Parc's lab copying by Apple because Apple had a license to copy Xerox's work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARC

And lesson #1 of Macdom. Never buy first generation hardware. Let the zealots beta test it for you. This rule applies to new product releases from most companies too. One of the reasons I'm waiting till Vista's first service pack before moving to Vista, let the other guys beta test it for me.

I haven't owned a Mac in 10 years but I would buy a Macbook for dual booting purposes. But I wouldn't touch a Macbook until the Merom based ones when the Apple engineers have gotten the kinks out of their Intel designs.

And Steve Jobs did not say buy an iPod every year. He said "You keep on innovating, you keep on making better stuff. If you always want the latest and greatest, then you have to buy a new iPod at least once a year." Most of the paraphrasing was sensationalist headlines by various tech blogs like gizmodo, engadget, daily tech, etc. What he said is true of the computer industry as a whole. Just replace iPod with your favorite piece of hardware or software. You want the latest and greatest, buy new versions of the stuff every year. Is this any different from video cards, hard drives, computer processors, monitors, optical drives, etc, etc.




RE: Some thoughts, or WHY I WILL NEVER OWN A MAC
By TomZ on 6/6/2006 5:46:01 PM , Rating: 2
You fail to mention the most fundamental difference between Macs and PC/Windows - choice and freedome. With PC/Windows, I can buy all kinds of hardware and software from lots of different vendors, and Windows can deal with it. I would be far less happy with a single-vendor solution, as provided by Apple.

Also, I think the "Mac Hate" you describe is brought on by Apple's marketing, i.e., their superior/smug attitude. That turns many of us against Apple since they think they are so elitist.


By Pirks on 6/6/2006 10:08:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You fail to mention the most fundamental difference between Macs and PC/Windows - choice and freedome. With PC/Windows, I can buy all kinds of hardware and software from lots of different vendors, and Windows can deal with it. I would be far less happy with a single-vendor solution, as provided by Apple.
Like I said above, average Mac user does not care if he sees not 10000 Chinese cards on Newegg but only 1000 Mac OS X supported cards on MacMall, for example. It is a huge difference for you - you MUST be able to choose from 1000 video cards on Newegg, while your average Mac Joe will be happy with just 100 of those video cards at MacMall - 'cause they will provide almost the same range of choice as your 1000 Newegg cards, except for the most crappy ones maybe (don't know how low and cheap you can go on MacMall, I believe not as low as on newegg). I think you have illusion of choice, just because all these vendors produce same hardware under 100 various labels. So if you wanna be able to buy from XFX, BFG, eVGA, Gainward and 50+ more vendors, this still will be the same stuff as in MacMall, just different labels, that's it. Basically, you don't like the choice of hardware - you like the choice of LABELS on it. This is an important difference, think about it ;-)


RE: Some thoughts.
By joust on 6/6/2006 8:04:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And lesson #1 of Macdom. Never buy first generation hardware. Let the zealots beta test it for you.

We shouldn't have to pay such a hefty sum to beta-test hardware. Sorry, but if I am going to pay extra, it had BETTER be decent quality.


RE: Some thoughts.
By Pirks on 6/6/2006 10:00:18 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
We shouldn't have to pay such a hefty sum to beta-test hardware.
Nobody forces you to buy latest greatest Macs, if you wanna try and play with one there's a lot of older models available - PPC Macs still work great, and will hold the turf for a year more... which is when it's totally safe to go to Intel Mac side. When they iron all the bugs out.

And, just like TomZ mentioned above - this is what the warranty is for. A friend of mine got a latest coolest Intel Mini which died next day, so he went back to store and got it replaced right there, in 5 minutes. End of story, no more issues/problems with his Mini. Try to replace, say, dead Dell notebook SAME DAY, like this Mini. Ha-ha. Not even funny...


RE: Some thoughts.
By BigDDesign on 6/7/2006 12:43:06 AM , Rating: 2
I find most experienced computer users can multi-task. Since Hyperthreading came out in Intel chips, multi-tasking improved considerably (less crashing too). The Windows OS is just faster when multi-tasking (even just browsing the Web and having 10 Websites open at once). Way faster. Having 4 or more programs open at once shows the power of the Windows OS. I use both platforms. Mac just can't handle 15 windows open at once. Just my 2 cents.


RE: Some thoughts.
By Pirks on 6/7/2006 5:22:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Mac just can't handle 15 windows open at once.
Ha-ha, funny that I keep hearing exactly same comment about WinXP from my Mac using buddies :-) And even more funny is that nobody I ask is able to provide any hard proof, both Windows and Mac users just go babbling in forums but when I ask them for concrete proof - everybody immediately shuts up :-) Same picture whether it's AT forums or iXBT forums or some other online place.


By AnaxagorasZeres on 6/6/2006 8:19:51 AM , Rating: 2
They didn't 'admit' to messing it up themselves. They just went 'Hey, guys with the hot laptops, your vents might be blocked. Maybe if you unblock them you'll experience some improvements in temperature.' Yes, this kind of thing shouldn't happen. But it does. Apple isn't immune to manufcaturing screw-ups, they just get actual coverage of them from slanted tech sites the world over.

In fact, this is even better than the article about CES being switched to the same week as MacWorld: http://dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=285
Of course, I'm going to get flamed and modded down to hell, just like I always do when I try to speak up.




By AnaxagorasZeres on 6/6/2006 8:20:40 AM , Rating: 2
I misspelled manufacturing :(.


RE: I absolutely LOVE DailyTech's inherent bias.
By joust on 6/6/2006 10:43:17 AM , Rating: 2
I would say they're more sensationalist than biased. They really laid on the critism on microsoft and dell too.


By AnaxagorasZeres on 6/6/2006 9:11:56 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't just mean the article itself; I was also talking about the people who browse DT.


By TomZ on 6/6/2006 10:57:44 AM , Rating: 2
I think Apple gets slammed a little harder when they screw up mainly because of their overall arrogant/superior attitude, e.g., in their TV ads.


By Iridium130m on 6/5/2006 9:50:55 PM , Rating: 5
I've been an adamant pc user since the 286 running dos 3.3. Macs were just wrong.

But then Apple switched to Intel based processors and I made the switch.

I switched when my new company laptop came due. I traded in my Dell 8600 with a centrino 1.6Ghz chip to a MacBook Pro with a Core due 2.16. The price was going to be the same for a new Dell, and since most of my work now revolved around Unix based systems, it made sense. Boy was i wrong.

So far I’ve experienced random lockups during heavy processing times. A nearly burnt lap when I accidentally set my MacBook down on my legs when I was wearing shorts. (the “Genius” at the apple store said they are now called notebooks instead of laptops for a reason, some help). And now worse of all: Total embarrassment when my $2800 laptop couldn't get on the wireless at a friends house while my mother in laws $600 gateway laptop had no issues at all. I ended up using her system for the duration of the vacation to get my work done.

Yes, I switched, and am ready to switch again.




By psychobriggsy on 6/6/2006 7:05:16 AM , Rating: 2
It was sounding good until your comment about wireless problems. That's the one area that anyone would say that Mac OS X excels at over a Windows based system, and indeed everyone with a Mac that I know has never had problems connecting to any random wireless network in range, given that they know the WEP/WPA key (if configured) and the router isn't filtering connections based upon MAC address. Of course, the MacBook Pro's Intel-based wireless could have problems relating to hardware or drivers, previous Apple laptops used different chipsets.

However it does seem that Apple's build quality has dropped, and that is unacceptable. It is costing them sales, as the comments on this topic clearly show. At a time when people are wanting to run screaming from Windows, Apple makes their entire product line look dodgy!


By Iridium130m on 6/6/2006 12:28:23 PM , Rating: 2
On the wireless, if I am on top of the access point, everything works ok, other then getting dropped at random times occasionally.

The signal diminishes on the MacBook Pro much much more rapidly then other notebooks the farther I get away from the access point, something that is inexcusable.


Apple keeps digging.
By VIAN on 6/5/2006 10:06:07 PM , Rating: 2
Just when you think the MAC OS could finally compete with Windows. They go and do stupid things. Why, if they're so filthy rich from Ipod sales are they skimping out on their customers. But you know Apple people - Apple is god no matter what.




RE: Apple keeps digging.
By VIAN on 6/5/2006 10:06:49 PM , Rating: 2
I was even considering a switch for a moment, until I remembered all these issues.


RE: Apple keeps digging.
By sxr7171 on 6/6/2006 2:10:05 AM , Rating: 2
Mac OS might be able to compete with Windows, but it might on my Thinkpad, not that defective crap they are selling.


I can understand design issues with a new design, but the thing that pisses me off most is how they treat their customers like shit. This is because most (not all) of their customers are blind apologist fanatics, so they've gotten so used to having customers who simply take whatever excrement falls from their collective asses that they couldn't be bothered to support their products.

I used to believe that Apple sold premium products at a premium price with premium support being the main difference, that apparently is not true.

This isn't really a new thing for Apple either, just google up something about motherboard failures on iBooks and you'll see this is nothing new.

Before you pro-Apple people get your panties in a wad, I am not anti-Apple. I have 2 iPods and have always wanted to get a Mac, until now that is. This whole thing is disappointing and Apple have only themselves to blame.


By berat556 on 6/6/2006 2:02:03 AM , Rating: 2
I like apple, especially their attitude towards design. I have used a $200 ipod and the interface is nothing special when compared to my $100 M:robe. The same can be said about their elitist pricing, a dell with a core duo long with a 3-4 warranty costs you at the high end the same as a macbook with a 1 year warranty. My point is, that as bad as microsoft is apple would be even worst, price, value and all. Alas did we forget the ipod battery debacle... I think Steve said somethin along these lines " Buy an Ipod every year" .... well that seems to be the mantra at apple. New Ipod, new OS revision, new $100 ipod case ( that is ludicrous). My point is that if apple is such a good guy compared to Microsoft why dont you offer some better pricing and tone down the elitist attitude. Apple, Voodoo, Alienware are the same in my book... overhyped and overly expensive, the mac may be easy but real people cannot afford it, that is why it is relegated to college professor and students as well as to your garden variety yuppie.




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