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IPhone 4S pre-orders began Friday, October 7

The iPhone 5 was a long-awaited follow-up to the iPhone 4, but when Apple made its official announcement last week, many customers and investors were disappointed to find out that an iPhone 4S would be this month's newest mobile release. But that didn't stop Apple from achieving one million iPhone 4S pre-orders within the first 24 hours of pre-order availability.

The problem many had with the news of the 4S was the relatively few changes made since the iPhone 4 -- especially in the realm of external changes. A few notable internal changes would be a dual-core A5 processor, iOS 5 mobile operating system, the Siri voice recognition assistant, an 8MP camera and compatibility across GSM and CDMA networks.

Despite complaints from customers and investors, technical analysis company UBM TechInsights predicted that the iPhone 4S would provide healthy profit margins comparable to prior iPhone releases.

From the looks of it, they were right -- Apple announced that it topped one million iPhone 4S pre-orders within the first day of making pre-orders available.

"We are blown away with the incredible response to iPhone 4S," said Philip Schiller, Apple's senior vice president of Worldwide Product Marketing. "The first day pre-orders for iPhone 4S have been the most for any new product that Apple has ever launched and we are thrilled that customers love iPhone 4S as much as we do."

What likely helped Apple out is the addition of Sprint as an iPhone carrier. It was discovered back in August that Sprint, for the first time, would sell the iPhone come the newest release in October. Not only that, but it would be the only carrier to offer unlimited plans for the iPhone 4 and iPhone 4S, giving it an edge over AT&T and Verizon.

IPhone 4S pre-orders began Friday, October 7. The iPhone 4S will be available October 14.

Source: Apple



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(sigh)
By Jeff7181 on 10/10/2011 10:43:48 AM , Rating: 5
I'm sure there are as many people out there that blindly repeat that the iPhone is the best phone on the market as there are people that feel the need to convince them that it's not.

I've had a Droid (yes, a real Motorola Droid, not just any Android phone) and I currently have an iPhone and a Blackberry. The iPhone is the phone I prefer to use, my only complaint is that you can't make it repeat alerts for text messages or missed calls indefinitely until the alert is viewed. Aside from that, I don't see a downside to having an iPhone rather than an Android phone.

It would be nice if people weren't so concerned with which phone others choose to spend their money on.




RE: (sigh)
By Breathless on 10/10/2011 11:03:12 AM , Rating: 5
Amen.

What have we stooped to where people have hatred for one another over... cell phones?

There are plenty of other legitimate reasons to dislike someone without having to resort to their preference of PHONE.


RE: (sigh)
By tekzor on 10/10/2011 1:10:02 PM , Rating: 2
you are correct.
The actual device is no cause for hatred of another human being.
However, I do dislike apple's manufacturing method for the iphone (probably other cell phone manufacturer's too) relating on the means on how they get their supplies and the workers who get abused to make these devices. We are all involved indirectly, sadly. hate yourself as well if you are gona hate someone over a stupid phone.


RE: (sigh)
By bupkus on 10/10/2011 3:07:57 PM , Rating: 2
Directly related to (a) a common lack of civility currently peaking in American culture, and (b) hyper-competitiveness also earnestly amplified in our capitalist culture. Note, I say capitalist "culture" not capitalist economy-- two different things.


RE: (sigh)
By TakinYourPoints on 10/10/2011 5:43:12 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. Complaining about how Apple manufactures their products is like denouncing sex tourism while getting serviced in a Bangkok brothel. Most of my tech gadgets and components weren't just made in China, they were also made in a Foxconn factory. It is pretty unavoidable, unfortunately.


RE: (sigh)
By vortmax2 on 10/10/2011 5:44:51 PM , Rating: 2
"Out of the heart, the mouth speaks..."

It's not about the phones, people just hate, unfortunately.


RE: (sigh)
By EasyC on 10/11/2011 10:55:02 AM , Rating: 2
So true, however its a product of marketing.

A company which will remain nameless, markets it's products to include smugness and elitism. Buying this product makes the uninformed consumer feel like they are getting the best. thing. ever. The consumer then projects this onto other consumers and can even *gasp* condescend to people with out phones. This, naturally, causes a bit of resentment, and retaliation. It's a never ending cycle from there.

Do I look down upon iPhone users? Yes (to a point, and not all of them). It's not because they own an iPhone, it's because of their attitude and misinformation about it.


RE: (sigh)
By jeffbui on 10/10/2011 11:38:33 AM , Rating: 2
Jeff, iOS 5 will allow you to set text message alerts to go off up to 9 times IIRC


RE: (sigh)
By Onimuto on 10/10/2011 2:20:48 PM , Rating: 2
..... What are you talking about
You can already repeat notifications 10 times 2 min intervals


RE: (sigh)
By tayb on 10/10/2011 5:28:03 PM , Rating: 2
I think iOS is the best mobile phone OS followed by Windows Phone 7 (7.5) and then Android. I currently have a Droid X.

It's too bad they are dooming themselves in my opinion with an utter lack of options. I would own an iPhone4 on VZW right now if they offered a version with a screen size comparable to my Droid X.

Alas, it looks like my next move is Windows Phone 7. Android feels like the Vista of mobile phone OS's to me. Slow, sluggish, and buggy. Maybe Apple has something up their sleeve for the iPhone 5 but I'm not willing to wait.


RE: (sigh)
By TakinYourPoints on 10/10/2011 5:47:53 PM , Rating: 2
It's a good call. Hardware specs don't really matter with Android when iOS and WP7 are both smoother and faster on slower hardware, let alone equivalent or faster like the A5.

Windows Phone 7 is definately the way to go if you're passing on iOS. Excellent mobile OS. Developer support isn't quite there yet but I'm positive it will be.


RE: (sigh)
By phantom505 on 10/10/2011 7:37:10 PM , Rating: 2
That is, and has been, the same complaint of open source vs restricted platform to closed platforms that has been around more or less since the dawn of personal computers.

So congratulations, you explained the benefits and pit falls of various software license schemes.


RE: (sigh)
By semiconshawn on 10/10/2011 7:00:15 PM , Rating: 2
The downside is the testosterone loss. Guys at work clamouring for the same phone as my teenage daughter cracks me up. Buuuttt Daaaaaaad my friends have one please please please Daaaad. I know I know its a good phone but still that is damn funny.


RE: (sigh)
By Subzero0000 on 10/10/2011 9:20:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm sure there are as many people out there that blindly repeat that the iPhone is the best phone on the market as there are people that feel the need to convince them that it's not.
...
It would be nice if people weren't so concerned with which phone others choose to spend their money on.

Best comment I've ever seen on Dailytech.


It's a sad truth...
By CrazyBernie on 10/10/2011 10:13:36 AM , Rating: 3
... that people are of the belief that the iPhone is the only good thing out there and the next version is one they "must have."

Cue the fanboy "If there were actually anything better out there..." response.




RE: It's a sad truth...
By pxavierperez on 10/10/2011 10:52:01 AM , Rating: 1
it's sad truth that just because Apple puts out one press release, you along with the droid-dom break into tearful emotional fits and start insulting iPhone buyers.

all just because Apple puts out one press release.

Pathetic.


RE: It's a sad truth...
By CrazyBernie on 10/10/2011 10:56:22 AM , Rating: 4
What's pathetic is that you say I'm breaking into some sort of emotional fit or insulting anyone when I'm doing neither. Good job, buddy.


RE: It's a sad truth...
By Subzero0000 on 10/10/2011 9:35:38 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What's pathetic is that you say I'm breaking into some sort of emotional fit or insulting anyone when I'm doing neither. Good job, buddy.

You are indeed broken into a emotional breakdown, you just don't realize it yourself.

You read the article and quickly assume that people are buying the phone with no good reason. You blindly believe it as "sad truth" and "fanboy".
Moreover, you tell yourself that your comment is not "insulting".

Somehow these iphone customers have emotionally affected you, eventhough they are only strangers, you just can't resist to make wasteful comment.


RE: It's a sad truth...
By tayb on 10/10/2011 5:37:52 PM , Rating: 2
Is it really that crazy to believe that people like iOS more than Android and just want the latest phone running that OS? I don't see any difference at all to this and the people who buy the latest and greatest from Samsung or HTC.

But only when Apple sells millions of phones are the customers mindless sheep. Clearly Android is superior!!!!

Cue the fanboys? The cue was this article, and you came to the call.


RE: It's a sad truth...
By TakinYourPoints on 10/10/2011 7:16:04 PM , Rating: 2
iOS developers keep doing things that literally cannot be done on Android due to them having total control over the hardware/software ecosystem: http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/07/real-racing-2-s...

Microsoft will achieve this before Android does, because like Apple they control the entire hardware\software stack. Something like a next-gen XBox with total integration with Windows tablets and WP devices, it will happen like Apple is doing now.

The potential applications go way beyond just gaming, it can also extend to creative or productivity applications. Gaming on iOS happened by accident. Developers took the platform and ran with it. Good 3D hardware and APIs combined with a 99c app model and easy acquisition in an always with you device made it attractive. Things Apple threw in like Gamecenter were a total afterthought.

Until Google takes control of the platform away from carriers and hardware manufacturers, it will continue to be the Wild West of mobile OSes.


RE: It's a sad truth...
By TakinYourPoints on 10/10/2011 7:25:52 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, brain fart, Microsoft could probably do this with wifi capable XBoxes now. They just need to make brain dead easy ad hoc networking between the WP7 and XBox 360 happen over wifi, boom, video streaming from the phone to the TV.


RE: It's a sad truth...
By TakinYourPoints on 10/10/2011 7:30:00 PM , Rating: 2
Or use it as an alternate controller, whatever, you get the idea.


By Solandri on 10/10/2011 3:19:30 PM , Rating: 5
The iPhone 4 had 600,000 pre-orders in the first 24 hours.
It was released only on AT&T which had 87 million customers at the time, or one per 145 customers.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2362977,00.as...

The iPhone 4S had 1 million pre-orders in the first 24 hours.
It was released onto Verizon, AT&T, and Sprint, which currently have approx 250 million customers. Or one per 250 customers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States...

This could be due to Android gaining dominance, or it could be due to Apple fans migrating to AT&T during the iPhone/iPhone 3/iPhone 3GS days. I can't think of an easy way to tell those two apart.




By CharonPDX on 10/10/2011 8:39:56 PM , Rating: 2
Um, the target market is all US smartphone users. As AT&T showed, people were switching to AT&T just for the iPhone. Therefore, using the carrier's current customer base as the target market is disingenuous.

Apple sold 600k iPhone 4's in the first 24 hours. That is one in 1000 people in the US, UK, Japan, France, and Germany (the launch markets.)

Apple sold 1 million iPhone 4S's in the first 24 hours. That is one in 690 people in the US, UK, Japan, France, Germany, Canada, and Australia.

I'd say that selling an iPhone to one in every 690 people in seven of the world's biggest countries in a 24-hour span is pretty damned impressive...


By someguy123 on 10/10/2011 9:32:43 PM , Rating: 2
How is it disingenuous?

I find it a bit delusional for someone to assume that everyone interested in the iphone was willing to switch carriers (especially with termination fees). There's nothing illogical about comparing market sizes when it's now less of a hassle, and costly, for those people to obtain an iphone.


Makes you wonder.
By quiksilvr on 10/10/2011 10:09:24 AM , Rating: 1
If it would have been a million if Steve Jobs didn't die. Not trying to be disrespectful, but his passing does seem to be quite a factor. The last iPhone that Steve Jobs' designed. Obviously that isn't true but its what most consumers are thinking. Owning the iPhone 4S is like owning a piece of history to many.




RE: Makes you wonder.
By MaulBall789 on 10/10/2011 10:16:42 AM , Rating: 2
If Jobs and Cook really did plan things out for the next 5 - 10 years, the last thing Jobs worked on may not hit the shelves for quite some time. Then again, Cook could scrap the entire plan and start his own from scratch, but I kind of doubt that will happen (within the first couple years anyway).


RE: Makes you wonder.
By tayb on 10/10/2011 5:35:08 PM , Rating: 2
Jobs had his hands over anything and everything that Apple will release for the next 24-48 months. I am certain that he has overseen designs for the iPhone 5.


By espaghetti on 10/10/2011 2:09:17 PM , Rating: 5
Because I love a NERD FIGHT!!!!




Wow..
By karndog on 10/10/11, Rating: -1
RE: Wow..
By Breathless on 10/10/11, Rating: 0
RE: Wow..
By karndog on 10/10/11, Rating: -1
RE: Wow..
By Breathless on 10/10/11, Rating: -1
RE: Wow..
By karndog on 10/10/2011 10:57:42 AM , Rating: 3
I never said they were "idiots" or "retards" you're putting words in my mouth. A lot of my friends own Iphones.

Obviously these people aren't paying the Apple premium because they just want a "cell phone that works good" as you put it. There are much cheaper alternatives if that were the case. Most of these people are buying them because of the brand image and because their friends/coworkers own Iphones and are telling them how awesome they are. Doesn't mean they are idiots or retards. Kind of like people who smoke because they think it's cool. They just lack independent thought.


RE: Wow..
By Breathless on 10/10/11, Rating: 0
RE: Wow..
By karndog on 10/10/2011 11:20:32 AM , Rating: 2
Umm it's a turn of phrase, not literal. Do you really think i believe Apple is serving up bowls of poo and people are eating them? No it cannot be proved because even if there were a survey asking people why they paid more money for their Apple product instead of the competition's usually superior, or better value product, NO ONE would admit they bought it just to look cool.

Secondly, HOW DO YOU KNOW HOW WELL IT WORKS? There are zero reviews out at the moment. How do these one million people know that they are buying a reliable, quality phone?? For all we know it could be another, "YOU'RE HOLDING IT WRONG" fiasco.


RE: Wow..
By Breathless on 10/10/11, Rating: -1
RE: Wow..
By Miggleness on 10/10/2011 11:47:36 AM , Rating: 5
I'm with you Breathless! I do not understand these people who are under the impression that what they coin as iSheep would just purchase whatever Apple releases due to brand name alone.

Apple wouldn't have done so well in the first place if they didn't have a great product. It's not always about the brand, it's about the whole package.

I've had Bada and Android phones. I got to play around the SGSII earlier today... I guess no more of those. I'm going Apple this time around. First timer, and definitely not about the brand.


RE: Wow..
By dani31 on 10/10/2011 2:21:50 PM , Rating: 4
Locking yourself out of a product is as bad as buying it thoughtlessly.

Apple haters and Apple fanboys are the same to me.

During the years a used Symbian, Blackbery, Windows Mobile and Android. Countless rom flashes and even a little rom development. Now I'll have an iphone. Next year I'll buy something else if I want.


RE: Wow..
By karndog on 10/10/2011 11:50:31 AM , Rating: 1
So you're admitting that people who preorder a phone from Apple are the type of people who don't read or care about reviews, and just want to be the first people on their block with the shiny new Iphone, and rely on brand name and history for reliability and quality, rather than independent reviews?


RE: Wow..
By Breathless on 10/10/2011 11:57:17 AM , Rating: 1
Tell me your age. Seriously, I would like to know.

If you are any younger than 18, then I will not argue with you anymore, because I would understand.

If you are older than 18, then unfortunately for me I feel compelled to try and instill some sense into you.


RE: Wow..
By rubbahbandman on 10/10/2011 11:31:25 AM , Rating: 1
Breathless, better stop before you hurt yourself lol.


RE: Wow..
By tamalero on 10/10/2011 12:09:23 PM , Rating: 1
You need to chill dude,.
Was it really necessary to transform this; into an tirade of insults?


RE: Wow..
By Breathless on 10/10/11, Rating: 0
RE: Wow..
By Cheesew1z69 on 10/10/2011 1:11:57 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Tell me your age. Seriously, I would like to know. If you are any younger than 18, then I will not argue with you anymore, because I would understand. If you are older than 18, then unfortunately for me I feel compelled to try and instill some sense into you.
By your posts, I would assume you are under 18 as well.


RE: Wow..
By xti on 10/10/2011 11:38:23 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
There are much cheaper alternatives if that were the case.


Does the $200 price even matter anymore? If that is the limiting factor, then go visit cricket.


RE: Wow..
By mead drinker on 10/10/2011 12:58:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I never said they were "idiots" or "retards" you're putting words in my mouth. A lot of my friends own Iphones... ...Most of these people are buying them because of the brand image and because their friends/coworkers own Iphones and are telling them how awesome they are.


I love the irony here. I find it amusing that in your spastic series of retorts you berate those who make purchase decisions on the basis of aesthetics, immediately object when people put words in your mouth, yet you can speak for them and their buying criteria. Guess what, your "novel" idea of independent thought isn't so independent. You are the guppy. Some 15 years ago Apple was against the establishment, was a marginal portion of any market space, and arguably had platforms that were better in some segments, yet they were not popular. You are not the only person to have had that thought. And yet you fail to have tolerance for a company or people that choose to support it. You, despite any acknowledgement have benefited. Here's a little history lesson:

In 2007 the debut of the LG KE850 aka Prada, released with an abhorrent price tag, was one of the first full touch screen phones in the world. Three months later Apple's iPhone came out, albeit with a similiar price(only to be drastically cut) and was in every measure superior. Not marginally superior, down right several product generations superior. Revolutionary was the buzz word. Guess what happened with the Prada?

With that effort, Apple bought brand loyalty, and a monetary commitment from the consumer so that they can continue to push the envelop. That wheel has been turning ever since. Not only to Apple's benefit but LG, HTC, etc. The consumation of ideas: multitouch, a touchscreen that actally functions, genuine web browsing, streaming video from the web on handsets, applications on phones, and now voice command applications will be in every single smart phone in the world. So spare me your angst, your intolerance, your ignorance. If those phones truly are better than it should be easy to convince your friends to switch despite alienating them with your propensity as a pompous douche, which you have so aptly presented here.


RE: Wow..
By Breathless on 10/10/2011 1:20:44 PM , Rating: 2
I hope he brought an umbrella, cuz its rainin cold hard facts up in hea.


RE: Wow..
By mellomonk on 10/10/2011 1:01:57 PM , Rating: 3
Huh. I was thinking that 5 minutes worth of research would show them that the alternatives can be varied and confusing. They can buy the newest model of the phone they have used and loved. All their existing apps and the like are just a sync away. Easy peasy.

No worrying about which update comes out when on which carrier. No touch wiz vs. blur or the like. No need for 'rooting' or 'ROMS'. No having to watch a slightly better model of the same phone they just bought come out a month later. Freedom of choice is sometimes freedom from confusion and frustration.


RE: Wow..
By jimbojimbo on 10/10/2011 11:04:08 AM , Rating: 3
Wow. You really aren't helping with his initial statement. You're an example of the typical ifan. Yes, it's a cell phone and that's fine and many people, yes, they're retarded.
There are many many Apple fans out there that will order whatever new phone comes out regardless of contract cancellation fees just to be the first to have the newest gadget. They can even release a phone that's made of real crap and they'd still sell that many. That's just the Apple way.


RE: Wow..
By Breathless on 10/10/11, Rating: 0
RE: Wow..
By Morvannec on 10/10/2011 2:03:40 PM , Rating: 2
It won't be if Samsung get their way ;)


RE: Wow..
By pxavierperez on 10/10/11, Rating: 0
RE: Wow..
By Onimuto on 10/10/2011 10:59:06 AM , Rating: 2
I agree I know to many people who just obtained an iphone4. Ready to pump out full retail for minor upgrades. He'll I am 18 months in I think and I won't waste it on this. Just will wait for a true upgrade in the iPhone 5. Untill I get everything I want
In another Os I'll stick with iPhone. As long
As I can continue jailbreaking it.


RE: Wow..
By retrospooty on 10/10/2011 11:06:28 AM , Rating: 2
"One million people happy to lap up whatever bowl of shit Apple puts in front of them"

Relax... It's not like its a crappy phone. It's a good form factor, good OS and thin. Alot of people already have IOS so switching over is easy. I dont personally like iphones due to the lack of removable battery and screen size, but I see why alot of users do. They arent all sheep.

Instead of railing against Apple, you should be happy. They make all other phone and OS manufacturers raise thier games and keep releasing better stuff. It's a good thing.


RE: Wow..
By kmmatney on 10/10/2011 11:26:36 AM , Rating: 2
And a lot of us are ordering it because our 3GS contracts have expired. I've looked at other options (my wife has a Droid) but I need way better battery life, and the iPhone delivers. I bought a white 32GB - I know exactly what I'm getting, and I know I will be able to jailbreak it (free tethering) with ease. My company pays for the service plan, and I'm still locked into unlimited data. As for pre-ordering it before it released - well I trust Apple enough, and I know that there is a well-supported Jailbreak community to gice the phone any lacking features. I'm looking forward to getting my phone, and customizing it to my needs.


RE: Wow..
By Reclaimer77 on 10/10/2011 12:24:56 PM , Rating: 2
Actually if you think about it, these morons have been waiting 15 months for a new phone, and they get ONLY a million opening day pre-orders once they discover the "iPhone 5" was made up hype?

Seems underwhelming to me, much like the phone itself.


RE: Wow..
By mead drinker on 10/10/2011 1:12:00 PM , Rating: 2
Not really when you consider that most apple fans will be at the store for "the experience". You can't preorder and pick up at the store this time around.


RE: Wow..
By cpeter38 on 10/10/2011 1:19:32 PM , Rating: 2
Take your meds dude - It is just a phone!

Some people don't have a choice. For me, the company will only deliver e-mail on an iCrap or a Crackberry. I have to pay $15/mo higher to get the Crackberry. Until IT supports WM7 or Android, the only real choice is iCrap.


RE: Wow..
By TakinYourPoints on 10/10/2011 7:01:15 PM , Rating: 2
A few weeks ago, someone on another forum I go to was discussing why iOS is used at his company and why Android isn't after being asked why they deploy iPads and none of the other tablets. I assume that the same issues apply to smartphones. This was also posted before the story around security in HTC handsets broke.

quote:
...we have to follow industry regulations and institutional policies around encryption of data at rest and mobile device management. Android is basically useless in a business setting because there has been almost no consideration given to most of these issues.

The fragmented nature of the Android device market means there's no central solution for it, either.

Even if the software met the requirements for securing a device, we would still have to narrow it down to one or two devices, because we can't certify or support the entire gamut. Thus, we use iPads.

The iPad is not used in enterprise because it's established, it's used because of the 39 or so ActiveSync security policies that can be applied to an ActiveSync compliant device, only iOS devices support them. Android supports around 7, and is essentially entirely useless for anything other than a casual device. It simply isn't possible right now to have a "secure" Android device, or even pretend you have one.

In addition, narrowing it down to one or two tablets is a LOT harder than you think. We were prepared to support the Galaxy Tab for a separate entity we have to support, but the lawsuits from Apple made us change our minds. Bottom line is no company except Apple has a real investment in the success of a tablet and its ecosystem. Google doesn't even come close for the reasons you mentioned.

Now if Google were to get into the tablet business, I think it'd be a total failure. They can't deliver a product that can last, because whatever they make will be immediately aped by another company looking to explore the market without making a substantial investment in it.

I hope none of my comments come across as discouraging competition, because that's not how I feel. I love competition and innovation in the sector, but the fact is after every other competitor shows their stuff off, the long-term stability and short-term supportability and security of iPads vastly outstrips other devices.


Taking this into consideration, it is clear why your company only authorizes Blackberry or iOS. That said, I have to assume that Windows Phone 7 adheres to the same ActiveSync security policies that iOS does, it is a Microsoft product after all. Does anyone here know about that? I have only seem iOS and Android in these kinds of discussions.


RE: Wow..
By Omega215D on 10/10/2011 9:18:10 PM , Rating: 2
The security issues with HTC seems to be pretty specific as to which models are affected. Sprint has the Motorola Xpert and Verizon the Droid Pro for business users and has security measures in place.

It would be good if Google began making their own business line up of Nexus phones.


RE: Wow..
By TakinYourPoints on 10/10/2011 5:55:25 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Five minutes of research would show there are much better options out there.


What other option has better developer support or better SoCs? This is before we get into Android's UI performance issues even on increasingly faster hardware. It doesn't really exist yet. Believe it or not, there are legit reasons for going iOS.

An Android user above called Android the "Vista" of mobile operating systems. I think that's a bit unfair as Vista got really good after issues were shaken out in the first six months. The hate there was a bit unwarranted. I think it is closer to the "Windows ME" of mobile OSes.

Keyboard support is a legit reason for people not to go iOS, and to those people I recommend they go Windows Phone 7 instead. That has an excellent UI and developer support continues to improve.


"The whole principle [of censorship] is wrong. It's like demanding that grown men live on skim milk because the baby can't have steak." -- Robert Heinlein














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