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The 90nm Cell/B.E. package as found in the PlayStation 3, now to be manufactured by Toshiba.  (Source: DailyTech)
Sony gives Toshiba something in return for its troubles -- Japanese Cell chip plants for $835M

A new twist has emerged with the death of HD DVD.  After Warner, Best Buy, Walmart and Netflix jumped on the Blu bandwagon, the fate of HD DVD was already sealed.

Despite the grim news, the principal HD DVD developer, Toshiba Corporation, refused to initially comment on its plans for its HD DVD.  However, as many analysts predicted, Toshiba came out last week and officially surrendered to Blu-ray

Many saw Toshiba's willingness to give up on HD DVD as a logical business decision and perhaps an admission of Blu-ray's superiority.  However, there might be a little more to the story.  Reuters reports that on Wednesday Toshiba and Sony Corporation, one of Blu-ray's principal developers, agreed to a major business deal, reached just after Toshiba made its final HD DVD decision.

Sony agreed to sell it microchip processing facilities in western Japan for approximately $835M USD.  These facilities currently produce Cell processors and RSX graphic chips.  Toshiba will enter the joint venture with Sony on April 1, 2008.

Toshiba, IBM and Sony were the principal developers of the Cell microprocessor, but Toshiba previously showed little interest in using the chip for any of its own projects.  Sony touts the Cell broadband engine in its Playstation 3 consoles; IBM uses the Cell processor in high performance computing clusters.  Toshiba has vowed to now use the Cell in its upcoming products.

While Toshiba and Sony entered into talks back in October 2007 and reached a tentative agreement to sell the cell facilities, the two companies continued to haggle about the price.  Sony's concession of what is considered a favorable price for Toshiba will likely strike many following Toshiba's drop as HD DVD as more than a coincidence, and perhaps a sign of an informal agreement.

The other interesting aspect of the move is that it indicates a clear shift by Toshiba to back the PS3.  The PS3, which last month outsold Microsoft's Xbox 360, previously had few ties to the company; while Microsoft's number one ally in hardware manufacturing has always been Toshiba.  Toshiba manufacturers several components for the Xbox 360, including the HD DVD add-on, and the Microsoft Zune MP3 players.

Toshiba's flip-flop may have been in the cards for a while.  Microsoft showed little remose as HD DVD took second place to Blu-ray; a move Toshiba must have recognized from its American ally.  Now the solidified PS3 venture between Sony and Toshiba indicates that Toshiba now has switched to backing the PS3 almost exclusively, another victory for Sony.


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Business is complex.
By powerincarnate on 2/23/2008 2:53:49 PM , Rating: 3
It's funny how business works. toshiba is part of the three companies that created the Cell Broadband chip. But they are also the makers of the HD-DVD standand. They must have known that One would mean the other wouldn't do well. Now that BDA won, Sony, whose been cash straped for a few years now, has a consistent money maker, Toshiba now, finds itself getting a bigger share in the Cell game, to ofset the loss of HD-DVD. Obviously though, I don't believe Cell will ever be able to match the win of an optical standard.

I don't necessarily agree that Toshiba is now Helping Sony or is on Sony's side, I think they just are trying to find another revenue source. Sony though can stand to benefit as they are prime to be the number 2 if not number 1 console maker this generation. XBOX in its quest to come out first, and to be much cheaper and thus not have an HD-DVD internal drive ends up in the long run being the loser of this generation, though they would have gained so much market share since the first XBOX that they could hardly guage it as a failer even if they are number 3.




RE: Business is complex.
By Alexvrb on 2/23/2008 3:21:22 PM , Rating: 5
You're jumping the gun if you think PS3 is going to climb to number 2 quickly, as a gaming console. People who buy 360 and Wii seem to be spending more money on games and less on movies for their console.

quote:
XBOX in its quest to come out first, and to be much cheaper and thus not have an HD-DVD internal drive ends up in the long run being the loser of this generation

Gee wiz, the Wii seems to be rather doing well, even though it ALSO lacks a high def optical drive, and it is even cheaper still. Maybe, just maybe, people buy it to play video games on? I know, radical concept, I'm sorry I take it all back.


RE: Business is complex.
By powerincarnate on 2/23/2008 5:21:34 PM , Rating: 4
Gee Wiz learn to read, I said the 360 in the LONG RUN will end up number 3, not quickly.

As for comparison purposes, the 360 and PS3 are very parallel. Both had little games in it's first year of existence, but in the case of the 360, it was the only show in town so it didn't seem like it was lacking anything. Both had subpar sales in it's first year, and if you look at the sales comparison it is quite equal for year 1. Both had or is schedule to have a great year 2 in which the games are now able to tap into the systems power. Where the two splits is that the 360 doesn't have the advantage of having a high definition drive optical drive and have that drive be the new standard in the world. Without any major games released in January, this already has allowed the PS3 to outsell the 360 in january for no other reason than Warner's decision. Combine that with the fact that the PS3 does well in Europe and Japan, while the 360 essentially doesn't exist in Japan, and isn't the hit it is in the US in Europe, and I believe most people will determine that if they were to put their money on it, they would probably pick the PS3 to beat the 360 by the time this console generation is over.

Wii is a different story and there are a lot of reason for it's success. 1. being it's ability to attract casual gamers and parent. 2. It's perceived to be the anti game, the thing that can finally get the kids to exercise. Tons of concerned parents won't buy a game system because they don't want their kids to just plop in front of the TV. 3. The wii comes at a price point even cheaper than the last two console leaders came out (ie... 250 vs. 300) 4. There are still significant amout of people that still don't have a high-definition TV. This will be a different argument after feb 2009, and will definitely be different after Blu-Ray latches on with the public in a few years, and in general, more people will have high definition TVs and will gravitate a bit more to high definition consoles. 5. They had some major 1st party games, a Zelda, a Mario, a Paper mario, a Smash Brothers (at least in Japan and soon the US), a Metriod. So chances are their success will continue, Sony has a lot of reason to believe their success will only improve. What does the 360 has to look forward to??? I guess gears of Wars but like Nintendo some of it's biggest Franchises already came out. Microsoft is in a hard place, it isnt' cheap or easy to pick up like the Wii, and it isn't as advanced with a new high def standard backing it like the Playstation 3.

But I don't expect everyone to agree to my analysis, all I know is, I never actually changed my analysis since Day one because I knew this was going to happen. I knew Sony and it's advance cell will have inferior game year one compared to an easier system to program for in it's second year of existence. I knew eventually, with price drops things will begin to change. And I knew with year two, the advantage will evaporate and the two will be even, and I knew, companies aren't stupid enough to continue this sharade of a system of 2 high definition stardard, in the wake of declining DVD sales. They needed to make a choice, 10-1 blu-ray to HD-DVD players out there will make it impossible for HD-DVD to win. This victory will provide a massive boost to the Playstation 3. With an ever growing install base, I know that 3rd party developers will A. No longer pay little attention to PS3 ports, and B. will be more inclided to have exclusives for the System. Combine that with the fact that I also knew that no matter what Microsoft did, the 360 will NOT sell well in Japan, and It becomes quite easy to make predictions.

Notice I never said anything about the 360 being a poor system. It's a fine system, has the best online experience and has a great library of games. BUT again like my very first words were in my original post. It's funny how businesses work.


RE: Business is complex.
By maverick85wd on 2/25/2008 12:06:03 PM , Rating: 3
Well put!

If I could make your post a 6 instantly I would. You said pretty much everything that needed to be said. I commented in another article on how Sony's decision to put BD capabilities in the PS3 (and Microsoft's decision not to do the same with HD-DVD) was probably the largest influence on the format war, but I kept getting rated down because I couldn't find the right words. You should just write a blog next time!


RE: Business is complex.
By BansheeX on 2/23/2008 9:15:27 PM , Rating: 2
360 and Wii users spend as much money if not more on movies as any PS3 gamer does, it's just that they're DVDs rather than blu-rays. But you're right, PS3s have been purchased as blu-ray players stand-alones while 360 and Wii consoles have not been purchased as DVD stand-alones. It's not a significant correlation, however, because with the blu-ray victory and the upcoming game lineup, you are going to see a massive shift in sales to the PS3. It will eventually surpass the 360, but I agree, it won't be overnight.


RE: Business is complex.
By StevoLincolnite on 2/24/2008 2:38:23 AM , Rating: 2
But the PS3 gets a double whammy, For Instance Sony gets money for every game sold AND every movie, Nintendo make money on the Hardware and games and all the accessories, While Microsoft make money on the games and Live!
So in the end, I don't think it matters, But History has shown the console that sells the most, will have the most games, which is the real important thing in the end when buying a console I guess.


RE: Business is complex.
By rykerabel on 2/24/08, Rating: 0
RE: Business is complex.
By sgtdisturbed47 on 2/23/2008 3:28:04 PM , Rating: 2
It's not really funny that business works this way, it's just the way it is. All companies seek expansion, and hat better way than to pair up or group together.


RE: Business is complex.
By daftrok on 2/23/2008 3:29:37 PM , Rating: 3
Interesting anaylsis. But I feel that if the 360 had an internal HD DVD drive things would have been much more different. Toshiba wouldn't have had to waste its time making HD DVD players but HD DVD drives. The 360 would have more than likely have been released in 2006 and would have really benefited them in several ways:

1) More time to fine tune the hardware and not having to blow a billion bucks for the 3 year extension warranty.

2) HD DVD would have been easier to back up because its combined with a console.

3) Competitively priced when compared to the competition. More than likely the 360 would have been $499 with a 20 GB HDD and HD DVD player (and HDMI out). They can get away with the fact of it costing 500 dollars because it would have been toe to toe with the PS3.

4) More time for developers to create better games. Imagine Gears of War, Dead Rising, Dead or Alive 4, etc. all available at launch.

I think Toshiba's major mis-step (besides horrible marketing of HD DVD) was not persuading the 360 to have HD DVD built in. Alas, life goes on and hopefully we can see 32 nm Cell Broadband Engine in the not too distant future and maybe even a slim PS3 with a price drop.


RE: Business is complex.
By superdynamite on 2/23/08, Rating: -1
RE: Business is complex.
By Disenchanted on 2/23/2008 6:27:40 PM , Rating: 2
Points 1 and 4 are the same essentially: more time. Points 2 and 3 are the same essentially: same features/price points for both consoles. Am I the only one who thinks that Blu-ray didn't win because it was bundled in a console, but rather, because said console was the lowest priced Blu-ray player?

A console selling at a loss to the manufacturer is a model that has been used successfully for years. By choosing BD-ROM as the format for the PS3, Sony basically designed a first generation BD player with a street price of $600 instead of $1,000.

I seem to remember a lot of people getting pretty annoyed with Sony for putting the BD drive in the PS3 because of the fact that it would raise the price so much. I think the same would have happened with Microsoft if they had put the an HD DVD drive in the 360.

IMHO then, the only advantage would have been time. As it is, the 360 launched in North America 1 year (minus 5 days) before the PS3. If (according to the hypothetical in your post) it were released in 2006, Microsoft would have lost at the very least just over a crucial holiday month (assuming a Jan. 1 launch), it likely would have been much more than that. What you're considering time gained, can also be looked at as time lost, since, if we were to assume the 360 ans PS3 went head to head on launch day, Microsoft would have lost out on ~10 million sales from the first year lead it had on the PS3. Look at the sales data. If that were the case, the PS3 would already be #2 in the rankings.

And that brings me to my last point which is: Mass market penetration is what matters here. It's why HD DVD didn't win, even more than the fact that the BD format is "technologically superior", mass market is where it's at. Now you can blame HD DVD's death on marketing if you like, or business deals, or even the color of the cases, but I think if Microsoft had put HD DVD drives in the 360, it would have died even faster because of the price point issue. That's actually what surprised me was that the price point was so much better on HD DVD that I thought it would have hit the mainstream faster than it (almost?) did.

And finally, this is a great deal for both parties, since they will undoubtedly make gobs of money from this in the next several years, and they will need that money to continue to back this new format. I think the change to Blu-ray will happen, but now we need to work on interesting the rest of the world, aka, the non-geeks who have not adopted high-def as the way to view content. Remember, we are not the norm, and not everyone understands these "newfangled contraptions".

-Drew


RE: Business is complex.
By xsilver on 2/24/2008 2:32:06 AM , Rating: 2
i dont think you're quite right there.

My thinking is that the format war in this instance was favoured towards BD because it could never really die. This is because it was intergrated with the PS3 so even if all the movie studios pulled to hd-dvd BD media would still be used for ps3 games. Sony wouldnt have been happy with that but they would ride it out like they are doing with memory stick.

Had hd-dvd been intergrated with the xbox 360 I would thoerize that eventually we would come to maket saturation such that there would be dual format players everywhere and essentially end up in stalemate. As long as each side has one major studio, backed by license agreements or whatever; it would be fine.
Essentially hd-dvd bet the house and they lost.
BD however would have never given up ps3 penetration no matter what.
The fault of that being up to microsoft or toshiba however is open to debate.


RE: Business is complex.
By Belard on 2/24/2008 3:54:22 AM , Rating: 3
er... no.

While yes, the xbox360 might have HELPED the HD-DVD format, it would have been deadly for microsoft.

There are lots of factors that determine the success of a product. The xbox pretty much failed against the PS2, it came out 1.5years after the PS2 and was replaced 1 year earlier than the PS2. So M$ wanted to beat SONY to the next gen console and they did... and are finally in the black... kinda.

IF the HD-DVD drive was built into the 360 - at the very start of this format war, things might have gone badly for MS and this format war might have ended up even messier.

1 - Timing: The 360 is already unreliable with a 16% failure rate with current models. The heat from its tech has damaged mobo and drives. Imagine the repair costs for replacing a $200~300 HiDef Drive? The 360 would have missed the 2005 Christmas season (Released Nov 22 2005) and perhaps wouldn't have made it to market for another 3-6 months... Within striking distance of a PS3.

2 - Costs? No, going my Microsoft's original pricing and cost of tech. If the 360-HD version was released 6 months later and without HDMI (which didn't come out until the summer of 2007) it would have been the WEAKER console than it already is. The most likely price would have been $500~550 WITHOUT the Hard-Drive. ($280+$225) And unlike the PS3, it didn't come with wireless networking ($100 add-on). Also, the 360 chassis would have to be designed differently and most likely a more powerful PSU would have been required.

The PS3 was over 6 months late... but it didn't matter too much, they got in before Christmas... But *IF* the 360 missed the 2005 Christmas season, and gamers thought that both consoles were coming out at about the same time, not as many people would have bought the 360 - especially if it had the $500 price tag vs the $500 PS3 with 20GB drive.

They might have had a better console, but much harder time against the PS3. Microsoft went with the most logical plan for their goal. Of course, if they spent more $$$ and hired a better team to TEST it before the release of the 33% failure rate design, the 360 would have MISSED christmas... it was a gamble and they WON and LOST at the same time.

The cost to build the PS3 would have always been cheaper as SONY owned Cell & Blu-Ray. Microsoft had to BUY their CPU from IBM and their drives from Toshiba.


RE: Business is complex.
By FITCamaro on 2/24/2008 12:00:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The 360 is already unreliable with a 16% failure rate with current models.


Original models might have had the higher failure rate. Current models do not have this problem. I however have an Elite from before the 65nm shrink and have had no problems.


RE: Business is complex.
By Belard on 2/24/2008 4:36:03 PM , Rating: 1
Original models have a 33% failure rate.

The 3 year warranty only applies to RROD

Other failues include drive death - usually caused by exess heat from the CPU/GPU.

The 16% figure is for the current line - a big difference, but not great... But does the new models come with a 3 year warranties.


RE: Business is complex.
By hduser on 2/24/2008 4:39:10 PM , Rating: 2
I doubt if Microsoft would've changed from a built in DVD to HD DVD mid stream. Ultimately it would've alienated the original people who had bought the 360 if there were games to be released especially HD DVD. If it chose to wait for HD-DVD it wouldn't have gotten the lead that it enjoys right now and ultimately the 360 would've costed more. Ultimately Microsoft move to release the 360 ahead of PS3 was a double edge sword, less reliabilty, no inherent HD content but a good sales lead and lower price.


RE: Business is complex.
By Belard on 2/25/2008 1:52:11 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't think I said anything about MS building in a HD-DVD in midstream. But that MS still has to buy their drives from someone else like Toshiba HD-DVD or DVD.

Of course, the HD-DVD or HiDef side is only usable for watching movies, there is NO way to change this. No developer would/could work with it. The 360 would have been far more expensive than the PS3 (more so than it ever was)... so yes, MS went the better route for a console, not HiDef movies/largeformat disc medium for games. If I was MS, I would have done the same thing, but would have made a better design chassis - but since I'm not THAT greedy, I would have made it more customer friendly. $100 for a 20GB HD, $200 for the 120GB? Come on!?


RE: Business is complex.
By ImSpartacus on 2/23/2008 3:50:06 PM , Rating: 2
I can't imagine how it must have been for Sony to work with Toshiba on Cell, but try to out sell Toshiba's HD-DVD players with BluRays.

It seems odd, but I could see how both sides profit. Still it's confusing thinking about what will happen now.

"What does it all mean Basil?"


RE: Business is complex.
By eye smite on 2/23/2008 10:51:59 PM , Rating: 4
This is more a case of Toshiba backing it's previous investments since the STI collaboration that made the Cell cpu was Sony, Toshiba, IBM. I don't think they're backing the PS3 and bluray as much as they're backing the Cell cpu for future use in other equipment besides the PS3.


RE: Business is complex.
By murphyslabrat on 2/25/2008 4:28:52 PM , Rating: 2
Nitpicking: Cell is not a CPU, it is a math processor.


RE: Business is complex.
By ViperROhb34 on 2/24/2008 11:40:43 AM , Rating: 3
I agree Toshiba is just needing a income source. MS already has plenty of fab plants..

Lets get back to reality here.

Bluray was chosen because it was the logical choice between two formats (" netiher was selling well * ) but HD-DVD and BLURAY Combined accounted for a puny .8 of one percent of movie sales. It was either choose bluray or watch both fail - and movie studios saw this coming.

The PS3 is in 3rd place in games per console. They also have the least highest rated games, and the least games out for their console.- even though Wii was out around the same time.

The PS3 needs to outsell the Xbox every month starting now ( which it isnt doing yet ) by 85,000 consoles ( again every month ) to pass the 360 in total sales in 6.5 yrs !

This is unlikely to happen because the new Xbox is slated to be announced in 2010.. it'll make the PS3 look outdated much earlier then Sony's old 10 yr plan, in which PS2 had no real competition its first 4 yrs out..


RE: Business is complex.
By hduser on 2/24/2008 4:26:59 PM , Rating: 1
Wii has higher quality games right now because it's essentially a gussied up Gamecube. The learning curve to program it wasn't all that high compared to shifting from the PS2 to the PS3.


RE: Business is complex.
By BladeVenom on 2/24/2008 4:34:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The PS3 needs to outsell the Xbox every month starting now ( which it isnt doing yet ) by 85,000 consoles ( again every month ) to pass the 360 in total sales in 6.5 yrs !


If the rate of sales so far this year continue, it will happen. Over just the last 4 weeks PS3 outsold the 360 by over 200,000.


RE: Business is complex.
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 2/24/2008 8:01:42 PM , Rating: 2
According to Microsoft, and my own experience, there is a huge 360 shortage right now. I don't know if that's enough to account for the difference, but I'm sure that affected 360 sales.


RE: Business is complex.
By stinkyj on 2/29/2008 11:27:15 AM , Rating: 2
This 'shortage' talk is a little long in the tooth methinks.

I was at Best Buy in Cary last night and they had at least 6 on the shelves.

Amazon shows in stock. Wal-mart, target search at B&M show available.

Might have been a small shortage before. seems ok now, guess the boat from China arrived w/ resupplies. Game on!


RE: Business is complex.
By 67STANG on 2/25/2008 11:12:54 AM , Rating: 2
Well, let's see.... everyone in the market now looking for a HD movie player platform will be buying a BD player. If you look on BestBuy.Com, the cheapeast BD player that comes up is the PS3... and it's one of the few players that can be considered a BD 2.0 player... And it can play games too you say? I think the XBox will be overtaken IMHO.


RE: Business is complex.
By gochichi on 3/1/2008 11:18:57 PM , Rating: 2
Is it really that complex?

What is far more complex is the psychology of the fanboy. Companies don't have a "grudge" department, things become sunk costs and they move on as soon as the numbers say so.

I would buy any system at any time to fit my needs. Frankly, if you have the setup (say a $2000.00 HDTV and a surround sound system) you can't do better for the money than to have all three consoles.


A matter of time
By borowki on 2/23/2008 8:45:46 PM , Rating: 2
Sony will live to regret this victory. I'm already hearing some noise around Brussels about a possible anti-trust case. Very clearly, the consumers did not decide who won the format war. It was movie studios, Walmart, and Netflix who decided. And, of course, there's the issue of bundling. The fact that Blu-Ray costs more is proof that consumers were materially hurt by Sony's action. I think it's a perfect opportunity for the European Commission.




RE: A matter of time
By TerranMagistrate on 2/23/2008 11:43:03 PM , Rating: 1
**** the European Commission.

Besides, Toshiba has already conceded defeat AND has a close business relationship with Sony so those money-grabbing assholes have no case at all.


RE: A matter of time
By Pjotr on 2/25/2008 4:01:55 AM , Rating: 2
So if AMD developed a "close business relationship" with Intel, and then suddenly decided to quit the CPU business, there's no anti-trust case visible at all?


RE: A matter of time
By phusg on 2/25/2008 7:16:45 AM , Rating: 2
Yes the EC is full of money-grabbing assholes whereas Sony, Toshiba, Microsoft et al are full of saints working charitably for the public good. Get a grip.


RE: A matter of time
By ViperROhb34 on 2/24/2008 11:57:55 AM , Rating: 2
I soley beleive that with proof neither high def format was selling well.. that movie studios chose Bluray over HD-DVD because they felt if they concentrated on one format they could at least save one of those formats.

Both formats combined sold a unimpressive .8 of one percent of movie sales. Movie studios were set to lose if both formats failed.

Now BLuray has a chance, but how much is very unclear.
Will it be as much as a success in 3 or 4 yrs as DVD became.. or will another format ( or even digital downloads ) be the thing in a couple yrs ?

Sony would love for MS to include a bluray player in their next system. MS touts data that Bluray hasn't increased selling of games as PS3 is in last place in games per console.. ( you think it would at least be even with the Wii in games per console ) .. but its last - only alittle over 3 .. Wii over 5.5 games per console.. 360 around 7.5 games sold per console.. SOny needs to outsell MS by about 85K each and every month to just break even in 6.5 yrs !

What does this mean and why would anyone care?

Developer support for MS isn't going anywhere.. "exclusive" games once dominated by Sony will continue to see multi-platform release.. and games on 360 that are too big for one DVD will be put on 3 or 4 DVD's - AKA recent RPG release 'Lost Odyssey' which was developed by a couple of FF's people..


RE: A matter of time
By Timeless on 2/25/2008 2:10:53 AM , Rating: 2
Can you stop spewing the same data over and over again? I believe you already said that Sony needs to sell 85k consoles in six years to be even five times already. Shessh, we get it.

quote:
Both formats combined sold a unimpressive .8 of one percent of movie sales. Movie studios were set to lose if both formats failed.


All fledging formats start off with small numbers. Did DVD sales shoot from >1% to over 90% in a night? Shessh, give Blu some time and it will go up.

quote:
SOny needs to outsell MS by about 85K each and every month to just break even in 6.5 yrs !


Yeah, yeah...we heard it all before. Do you really think sells won't rise when the AAA games come out this year? I wouldn't be surprised if MGS4 alone spike sells pass 100k more than the Xbox360.

quote:
Developer support for MS isn't going anywhere.. "exclusive" games once dominated by Sony will continue to see multi-platform release.. and games on 360 that are too big for one DVD will be put on 3 or 4 DVD's - AKA recent RPG release 'Lost Odyssey' which was developed by a couple of FF's people..


Isn't that jumping the gun a bit too soon? Yes, some developers have gone multi-platform. That doesn't mean that the rest will follow. Out of all the Japanese developers releasing games for the 360, it seems that Konami is the only one benefiting from it. I can kinda see why too. So far, all the JRPG on the 360 are tanking. Not to say that they have a lot, but the two main ones(Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey) aren't doing so good. Why waste money on a port to the 360 when current trends show that JRPGs aren't doing well on it? They could save money by just releasing it on the PS3 like what they did for the PS2. The Japanese developers won't abandon their market just to cater to a console that isn't doing well in Japan.


RE: A matter of time
By wolfpack1825 on 2/25/2008 2:36:30 PM , Rating: 2
Glad to see JRPG's are tanking. I have never liked them and the sooner they die the better. The Japanese games that are translated to english have always for the most part been terribly written, the cut scenes are the only thing that even gives merit to their existence

I sure hope Sony does not count on these games to boost sales. I guess they have there Japanese audience, but any of those that come state side are generally junk.

So I am okay if Microsoft just gives up on Japan and just makes quality titles in America.

MSG for the record had horrible controls, but the story was good. However the game itself was horrible, and there are countless titles to support that.

So I am not saying all games out of Japan are bad, but they sure have a huge library of ones that are. I sure hope they learned from there mistakes and really change there method of releasing games to North America


RE: A matter of time
By Timeless on 2/25/2008 5:02:05 PM , Rating: 2
Really now...I wouldn't say JRPGs tanking on the xbox360 is good thing. JRPGs rake in a decent amount of $$ each year. To give up on Japanese and their JRPGs is to lose out on a big market.

quote:
I sure hope Sony does not count on these games to boost sales.


Since I can't find better numbers anywhere else, I just borrow VGChartz numbers. Final Fantasy XII sold ~5mil copies. That is quite a lot. Don't count out the JRPGs cause they can make a huge difference.

quote:
So I am okay if Microsoft just gives up on Japan and just makes quality titles in America.


You still gotta give the Japanese some credit. Each year they try to create new, more innovative games. Americans stick to the same old, same old...shooters. Gears of War, BioShock, Crysis, COD4, Halo 3, Mass Effect(to an extent) and Turok. I don't know about you, but I'm getting sick of shooters.


RE: A matter of time
By hduser on 2/24/2008 4:33:32 PM , Rating: 2
I beg to differ. The studio did chose for the consumer based on current buying patterns of the consumer. I don't recall HD-DVD ever beating Blu-ray in movie sales.

Basically it was bad for the movie industry to have a format war anyways. With HD movie sales paltry by comparison to the DVD market. And the overall movie sales seems to be flagging anyways. It's better to consolidate behind one standard and not create confusion for the consumer and generate more money NOW by not having multiple SKU and doubling shelf space.


what does this change exactly
By agent2099 on 2/23/2008 7:43:58 PM , Rating: 3
"Toshiba's flip-flop may have been in the cards for a while. Microsoft showed little remose as HD DVD took second place to Blu-ray; a move Toshiba must have recognized from its American ally. Now the solidified PS3 venture between Sony and Toshiba indicates that Toshiba now has switched to backing the PS3 almost exclusively, another victory for Sony."

What does this mean exactly. How was Toshiba "backing" Microsoft before?

What has Microsoft lost as a result of Toshiba manufacturing chips for Sony?




RE: what does this change exactly
By rudolphna on 2/23/2008 8:12:09 PM , Rating: 2
In the end, the Wii will be the best selling console, several reasons.
1.Price
2. More fun to play (ive used all 3 and the Wii is definetly the most fun)
3. More games (compared to the PS3)
4. Not everyone needs or wants HD

We have a hi def tv in our house, but we still have a Wii, a Gamecube, a PS2 (which frankly has crappy graphics in the game themselves, the Cut scenes are good)a N64) we dont even use the component cables, we use the standard RGB cables for 480i output. It looks great. The wii is the cheapest of the 3, and the revolutionary controller is very cool and fun to use.


RE: what does this change exactly
By BansheeX on 2/23/2008 9:06:01 PM , Rating: 4
2. Totally subjective, cumulative game score averages have shown the Wii to be abysmally low, and having played many of its games, I can attest to why many traditional gamers would be completely unimpressed with its current library.

http://www.dailytech.com/Wii+Games+Scoring+Below+X...

3. Quantity of games means nothing, particularly when most of them are shovelware.

1 and 4 matter some, but you're missing the biggest reason that it will sell well, which is that Nintendo's console has been marketed to and appeals to non-gamers, which far outnumber traditional gamers and have far more buying power. They've made a control device that these people can understand and coupled them with sports activities that people know. It's also the ONLY option for the very young as no one is going to buy an expensive system comprised of mature-rated games for an eight your old. Those are two large demographics that Sony and MS are not trying to associate with.


RE: what does this change exactly
By jonrem on 2/23/2008 10:06:27 PM , Rating: 2
Absolutely correct. I bought one for Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and eventually SSB, but there's a big drop off in quality after the top-tier games. Too much junk.


RE: what does this change exactly
By Gastrian on 2/23/2008 8:24:48 PM , Rating: 2
And what rights does Toshiba have when it comes to selling on manufactured Cell chips? Are they restricted to selling to the companies Sony tell them they can sell to or do they have free reign and hence sell it to the likes of Microsoft.

Not sure if its just due to the internet crowd becoming more aware of such business politics but there seems to be a lot of news being over-glamourised.

Hands up how many people knew that Nintendo made money from UK PS2 sold in the chanel?

And where's the cufuffle over IBM, Intel, nVidia and ATI/AMD? AMD makes the GPU for both the Wii and Xbox360. nVidia and Intel both made parts for the original Xbox and "jumped ship" to MS's competitors this generation - nVidia makes the PS3's RSX and Intel launched the Core Duo in Macs. In the same light IBM went from Apple to MS as its processors went from Macs to the Xbox360. IBM not only makes the Wii and Xbox360 processors but is a partner of Sony in the Cell's creation.

Toshiba's purchase was simple business, the biggest selling HiDef player so far is the PS3. If both Sony and Toshiba continued the "HD-War" both companies would lose money selling their products at reduced prices. By buying the plants Toshiba has a contract with Sony that lasts at least as long as the PS3, then there's all the other products the Cell was meant to be a part of and each processor will be sold at a profit. Toshiba has bought itself a steady cashflow in a less volatile and risky market.


By ViperROhb34 on 2/24/2008 11:46:53 AM , Rating: 3
Lost ?

PS3 needs to outsell Xbox 360 by 85,000 units a month for the next 6.5 yrs just to break even !

Secondly, MS has plenty of fab plants making their CPU's and GPU's .. they don't need Toshiba to do that.

Lastly, how outdated with the PS3 look in 2010 when MS and Nintendo come out with new consoles ? Those consoles could also use BLuray - if it indeed survives.

Bluray was chosen solely because neither HD media was selling well.. Movie studios were set to lose millions if both formats failed..

right now Bluray sales account for about .4 of one percent of movie sales - not an impressive figure, but we'll have to see how much that changes in the next 2 yrs.. or you'll see an Xbox with a bluray player ..


What did they buy?
By joex444 on 2/23/2008 5:22:19 PM , Rating: 2
You make two contradictory statements, ironically in the same paragraph.

"Sony agreed to sell it microchip processing facilities in western Japan for approximately $835M USD. ... Toshiba will enter the joint venture with Sony on April 1, 2008. "

So, what is it?

A) Sony sold the plant to Toshiba for $835M. Toshiba produces the chips and sells them to Sony. It's a joint venture in that Toshiba gets paid to make the chips, and Sony gets paid to make the PS3. Toshiba makes no money from sales of PS3s, only construction of PS3s.

B) Sony sold half the plant's ownership to Toshiba for $835M. They share the revenue attributed to manufacture of these chips for use in the PS3.

With the profit made from producing Cell processors, and the amount of PS3s sold, won't it take a *very* long time for Toshiba to make back that money?




By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 2/23/2008 5:55:31 PM , Rating: 2
As it was worded in the press release, Sony sold Toshiba the physical plant, but it's part of a separate joint venture outside the Toshiba-IBM-Sony joint venture that already exists.

So these two statements are not contradictory, but the way businesses deal with each other never seem totally straightforward.


RE: What did they buy?
By PandaBear on 2/24/2008 8:17:45 PM , Rating: 2
$835 Mil is very cheap for a 65nm plant now a days, it is almost like a giveaway (Sandisk/Toshiba's NAND FAB cost a few times over that).

Plus you don't know how much Toshiba is charging Sony for the cell afterward.


Confusion and complex
By electriple9 on 2/23/2008 8:48:04 PM , Rating: 2
They knew one of them will loose. All they did is create confusion for the user. Instead of making a format war, they should have created something together, and make it easier for the customer, and the media world. If Sony was to sell Bluray players for $100 by now, everyone would allready been gone to hd movies. Lower the price of HD movies to $25, and ill stop every buying dvds, and just buy blurays
Thanks




RE: Confusion and complex
By cyyc009 on 2/24/2008 12:21:22 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, I too agree that Toshiba and Sony should have just worked together from the beginning, seeing as how they both knew that the blu-ray would win in the end anyways. However, $100 blu-ray disc players would be way ahead of their time. It'll definitely happen eventually... but give it a year or two geez.


RE: Confusion and complex
By rykerabel on 2/24/2008 12:39:31 AM , Rating: 2
They created the two formats to compete on purpose for the publicity. people crave conflict.

look at all the free media attention.
the tiny sum spent on advertising compared to how much they normally advertise.
the public recognition of the fact that there is something better than DVD (you know how ignorant the public can be).

this is not conspiracy theory, just good business sense.


Scratch my back
By EglsFly on 2/23/2008 3:53:03 PM , Rating: 4
It is as simple as this.
You scratch my back, I scratch your back...




RE: Scratch my back
By powerincarnate on 2/23/2008 5:25:43 PM , Rating: 2
more like you scratch my back while I'm trying to claw yours, at the same time, you expect me to scratch your back while trying to claw mine.


RE: Scratch my back
By daftrok on 2/23/08, Rating: -1
I'll never understand
By skyyspam on 2/23/2008 10:20:05 PM , Rating: 1
You know, I would have thought that the death of HDDVD would have meant absolute destruction of my TOSBF stock investment. Ironically, TOSBF actually LEAPED at the death of HDDVD. I don't get it, but I'll never complain...

Nor will I ever buy BR/HDDVD discs. Internet downloading's the way to go.




RE: I'll never understand
By CuiBono on 2/24/2008 12:07:27 AM , Rating: 2
That's exactly what MicroSoft is trying to do: fail both formats and get you to download instead of hard copies (was covered in one article). But it seems that people always liked to have a choice, so Blu and downloading will exist in parallel without hurting each other. And for now, majority still want hard copies instead of downloading which is a bit tricky for non-technical folk. Once we reach fiber-optical speeds then downloading will be the new norm, till then most will be doing it the old way.


Leave it to Mick...
By mguilicutty on 2/24/2008 12:39:46 AM , Rating: 3
Leave it to Mick to see this as a loss for Microsoft. MS could release an external BluRay drive on Monday and be in the same position they were in all along.

Playing optical HD movies is obviously not something a large portion of the console buying pubic is interested in. Around 250,000 external xbox HD/DVD drives were sold compared to how many millions of 360s?

I see it as a win-win for Sony and Toshiba. Sony finally gets to win a format war and Toshiba gets some guaranteed manufacturing contracts and a prebuilt factory to do it in. Microsoft just has to decide whether they want to listen to PS3 fanboys whine about the xbox not being able to play optical HD movies or pay someone different than they were paying before to build a new external drive.

The losers in this are those early adopters who bought HD/DVD drives and players. Then again, I think the same can be said for those bought / are buying first gen BluRay equipment.

For myself, all media gets ripped from whatever magnetic or optical format in comes in and sits on the file server waiting to get played by a 360.




By MagicJoe77 on 2/24/2008 2:45:32 AM , Rating: 2
After all this discussion, everyone seems to be picking the gaming console winner in this business decision. Despite the fact that this article has little to do about the actual 3rd Gen Systems. This article is about business relations and Toshiba making a money move. The gaming console race is still on and no victor has been awarded a crown, as there will likely be no real crown awarded. Each system has its benefits and niches that attract customers. Unlike past Gaming wars (which were more based on games rather than console capabilities), The 3rd Gen Systems have different hardware and software differences that make this an inconclusive race.

The PS3, as many have pointed out, has the HD optical Drive for Blue Ray, making is sell as both a Gaming console and Blue Ray player. Past that the system specs parallel X-Box 360.

X-Box 360 has a huge advantage on online gaming capabilities. X-Box Live works extremely well and offers content and gaming experience that is not available in the other systems. To further this (pushed to the public in the same timeframe that HD DVD died) MS is now going to allow amateur game programmers to make new games for X-Box 360 and post these on X-Box Live.

Wii’s ability to interact with the gamers’ motions will place it in a category of its own. This combined with its very competitive price will make this system great as a stand alone gaming system.

Overall this might have some impact in the gaming war, but the impacts will be more indirect. X-Box 360 Owners never purchased the system for its external 200$ HD-DVD drive, Nor did any PS3 owners purchase a PS3 for its limited online capabilities… and Wii … well when people buy a Wii, they know what they are getting. So the fact that now PS3 will be the only console that has a HD Drive will make little impact on the market overall. (HD movies are not as large of an industry as people make them, as players cost $150+ over standard DVD players, and most people aside from PS3 owners are not willing to change until that price and the number of movie titles becomes more competitive)




Cell based HDTV
By B3an on 2/24/2008 3:10:29 AM , Rating: 2
I hope Toshiba will finally bring out a HDTV that uses the Cell, they've had these at shows and that for atleast 18 months now.




April Fools!
By Jynx980 on 2/24/2008 3:35:28 AM , Rating: 2
I wonder if Toshiba was skeptical at all about the date. "OK here's the deal: you concede defeat on HDDVD and we will sell you some factories. You can take over on.. oh I don't know.. April 1st sounds good."

I can imagine the CEO of Sony yelling "April Fools!" and running out the back door.




By prenox on 2/24/2008 11:33:32 AM , Rating: 2
I remember reading this deal was being made awhile ago. It was part of Sony's manufactoring stradegy to get the cost of the PS3 down. Selling off the Cell to Toshiba so they could foot the cost of die shrinks and bad batches and still keep a steady supply of Cell for the PS3




By eetnoyer on 2/24/2008 1:54:23 PM , Rating: 2
but it will be interesting to see if an anti-trust suit is filed (EU anyone) over the "suspicious" timing and value of the semiconductor plant sale. If the article is right, and the sale price can be interpreted as significantly below market value, it could be construed as complicit behavior between competitors to fix prices, since HD-DVD players were so much cheaper than BD players.




ps3 has failed
By psychotix11 on 2/24/2008 5:21:18 PM , Rating: 2
Everybody I know that bought one as a blu-ray player doesn't play games on it. On the other hand all the gamers I know that bought PS3 lack an HD TV.

It's a paradox.




RROD
By Zark74 on 2/24/2008 6:09:40 PM , Rating: 2
before i go outside and buy xbox360 i want MS to fix RROD issue as at GDC08 BBC reported that MS own demo console was RROD,

if i'm paying that much for a console than i want it to last for atleast 5 years.




By TerranMagistrate on 2/24/2008 8:31:05 PM , Rating: 2
I knew it would happen even when things were look rather bleak back in October 2006 prior to the launch of the PS3.

Giving the PS3's current momentum worldwide, the Xbox 360 should be anticipating a loss to third place in this console war pretty soon. Chances are, the 360 will remain there for the remainder of its lifespan.

This is simply the direction this market is now steering.




By rykerabel on 2/24/2008 12:49:15 AM , Rating: 2
Funny comments about MS when MS owns Bungie Studios.

BSOD = 99.999% of the time a hardware issue since win2k.

enjoy your FUD.


By ani4ani on 2/24/2008 4:04:50 PM , Rating: 2
hmm, they never did own and they don't own. They owned the rights to Halo, and for your information if there is a next Halo, Bungie won't be involved.


By Justin Case on 2/25/2008 2:26:33 PM , Rating: 2
Don't underestimate Sony. They are just as capable of releasing crap as Microsoft. And, if anything, they are more likely to lie about the specifications (not just in consumer stuff; even their high-end video equipment is known for "cutting some corners" and having misleading manuals & spec sheets).


Principle != Principal
By Justin Case on 2/23/08, Rating: -1
RE: Principle != Principal
By bobbob on 2/23/2008 9:50:24 PM , Rating: 1
RE: Principle != Principal
By rykerabel on 2/24/2008 12:43:12 AM , Rating: 2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror

but then i'm right there with yall :P


RE: Principle != Principal
By Justin Case on 2/25/2008 2:04:26 AM , Rating: 3
No, it's called being literate. If you think anyone who can spell (and who understands the difference between a "principle" and being "principal") is a "pedant", I can't imagine what you'd say about people who can speak more than one language, do calculus or understand natural selection. Here's another dirty word for you:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/educatio...

Sigh...


RE: Principle != Principal
By Justin Case on 2/25/2008 2:08:48 AM , Rating: 2
Also interesting that "bobbob" apparently decided to register just to post that message. I'm honored...


"If they're going to pirate somebody, we want it to be us rather than somebody else." -- Microsoft Business Group President Jeff Raikes














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