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Apple CEO Jobs has promised to rid the world of porn and Adobe Flash by trying to deny his customers access to those things.  (Source: AP)
Apple is denying customers freedom on on the internet, says Adobe's technology chief

ArsTechnica caused quite the stir when it reviewed the 11.6-inch MacBook Air.  The site proclaimed the notebook "the future of laptops" despite widely-publicized quality problems.  It also echoed Apple's perpetual criticism of Flash, writing, "Having Flash installed can cut battery runtime considerably—as much as 33 percent in our testing."

Overjoyed Apple-centric sites quickly spread the news -- taking the test as long-awaited proof that Apple CEO Steven P. Jobs was right all along -- that Adobe's multimedia Flash technology was an evil power-sucker, after all.

On Monday Fast Company aired an interview with Adobe Chief Technology Officer Kevin Lynch about the supposed study.  In the interview Mr. Lynch blasts the claims.  He states, "It's a false argument to make, of the power usage.  When you're displaying content, any technology will use more power to display, versus not displaying content. If you used HTML5, for example, to display advertisements, that would use as much or more processing power than what Flash uses."

Mr. Lynch is clearly correct here.  ArsTechnica's review may have been technically correct, but perhaps didn't put things in the proper context.  Its conclusions are akin to writing "Every time I run Crysis, my Asustek laptop's battery life drops 50 percent!  You might want to uninstall Crysis ASAP!"

Further, there are a wealth of Flash blocking extensions for browsers like Firefox that allow users to pick what Flash content to display, while still retaining Flash support (obviously the most desirable situation)

It is true, a lot of Flash content -- ads and such -- isn't deemed as particularly desirable in the eyes of the users.  But there is plenty of desirable Flash content out there, such as Flash-driven games.  And at the end of the day, without dedicated browser extensions, there will be ads -- either in Flash or in HTML5.  And those ads will sap battery life as they are animated.  But at the end of the day, without those ads, most of our beloved web content, from news to social networks would not be financially viable.

The Adobe executive also points out that Apple's anti-Flash crusade is hurting developers as much as Adobe.  He states, "I just think there's this negative campaigning going on, and, for whatever reason, Apple is really choosing to incite it, and condone it.  I think that's unfortunate. We don't think it's good for the web to have aspects closed off--a blockade of certain types of expression. There's a decade of content out there that you just can't view on Apple's device, and I think that's not only hurtful to Adobe, but hurtful to everyone that created that content."

He adds, "That's what upsets me the most.  That people put energy into making this stuff, and now some percentage of viewers can't see it anymore because one company chooses so. That's just totally counter to our values."

According to Mr. Lynch several studies have shown HTML5 to actually be less battery friendly than Flash.  And playback reliability issues with HTML5 have also been raised.

Interestingly, Adobe is actually investing in producing its own HTML5-specific technology.  States Mr. Lynch, "[HTML5 is] good news for Adobe.  We support HTML. We're making tools for HTML5. It's a great opportunity for us. Flash and HTML have co-existed, and they're going to continue to to co-exist."

Currently Flash is banned from Apple's iPad, iPhone, and iPod Touch.  It is also no longer pre-installed on Apple's Mac computers.  Fortunately for customers, it does come pre-installed on most PCs and Android smart phones, both of which greatly outsell their fruity competitors in the U.S.  Thus most customers have access to free choice in web technologies, much to Apple CEO Jobs' chagrin.


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Living in denial.
By therealnickdanger on 11/9/2010 10:31:01 AM , Rating: 5
Dear Apple,

It's pretty simple, if you own a computer and you want to visit the most popular websites and freely navigate the World Wide Web, you're going to have to use Flash and many other plugins. Computing power, battery life, and connection speed must all account for this. You do not own the Internet, it's your own fault for not working with Adobe to improve what you perceive to be a problem.

- the undersigned




RE: Living in denial.
By chalupa on 11/9/2010 10:36:11 AM , Rating: 4
Dear undersigned,

You are wrong.

Steve Hitler (aka Jobs)


RE: Living in denial.
By MrTeal on 11/9/2010 10:54:16 AM , Rating: 5
Godwin's Law didn't take long in this case.


RE: Living in denial.
By sprockkets on 11/9/2010 12:05:41 PM , Rating: 2
Funny, why people rated that down. It's called sarcasm.


RE: Living in denial.
By Fracture on 11/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Living in denial.
By ChristopherO on 11/9/2010 1:01:59 PM , Rating: 5
So you didn't read the New York Times' article about the privacy holes in HTML 5? That's what happens when companies who make all their money off marketing are allowed to contribute to a standard.

Even the CEO of Opera isn't fond of HTML 5, and Opera is widely known as embracing the latest web standards before almost everyone else.


RE: Living in denial.
By AstroCreep on 11/9/2010 11:04:43 PM , Rating: 2
But at the same time, how many security issues lie in Flash?

Nothing's perfect, especially in the world of browsers and browser plug-ins.


RE: Living in denial.
By kingius on 11/10/2010 8:18:27 AM , Rating: 2
He didn't say security issues, he said privacy ones.

He also raises a good point; if you allow marketing companies to contribute to web standards, don't be surprised if information leaks out of the standard all over the show.


RE: Living in denial.
By AstroCreep on 12/8/2010 4:31:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
He didn't say security issues, he said privacy ones.

Yeah, but with Flash, Privacy is akin to Security, namely "Flash Cookies". Just another place that my personal in formation can be programmatically accessed, and potentially by malicious sources.


RE: Living in denial.
By sprockkets on 11/9/2010 1:09:24 PM , Rating: 2
So? There are open source alternatives to flash as well. They just can't do everything the original does due to DRM/patent issues with video formats.

Oh, and btw, don't expect sites like homestarrunner.com to turn html5 overnight, or redo all their past content just for apple.


RE: Living in denial.
By retrospooty on 11/10/2010 7:07:16 AM , Rating: 1
"Its also funny people don't see the obvious benefit of using HTML5 which can use open source solutions vs using the proprietary Flash."

That's not the issue. Of course HTML5 is the future. The issue is that there are millions of websites out there right now today that use flash and all of that content is unworkable if you dont support it. Flash's hayday may have passed, but the web still relies on it today, and that wont change for years to come.

Its as if Apple stopped using gasoline cars becasue they arent as efficient as some other alternatives... But mr Jobs, the whole world runs on gas! IF you wanna take steps to usher int he future, great, hats off. If you do it while not supporting the present, thats just stupid.


RE: Living in denial.
By B3an on 11/11/2010 12:02:13 AM , Rating: 2
People like yourself mindlessly say HTML5 is "the future" when it cannot even do 1/4 of the things Flash can right now. I work with both of these things daily, and not only is HTML5 far more limited, but actually making content is far more time consuming, even to do the most basic of tasks - a very simple animation for instance.

Flash progresses far faster than HTML. HTML has hardly changed from the first version made decades ago, which was based on a coding language that was even older (from the 1970's i think).
On the other hand Flash has changed massively from the first versions, it's nothing like them now, including the programming language.

Every year Flash get updates. It will soon have some serious 3D support. On the other hand when HTML5 spec is finalised in 2012 there will be no more big updates to HTML5 ever again. Thats it.
It took over 10 years from HTML4 to the finalised version of HTML5. It could take just as long for HTML6, and by that time Flash will be light years ahead.

Lastly... Apple actually uses HTML5 for basic animation demo's on there own site, yet they completely cripple the iPhone and iPad - 100% CPU usage and frame rates in the single digits. I've always found that extremely amusing, because not only could Flash run these simple animations at 10x the frame rates, but it would also use way less CPU to do it. Which is turn means less battery drain.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Living in denial.
By chalupa on 11/9/2010 11:24:51 AM , Rating: 5
Dear Pirks,

I dont buy them. But i am still allowed to have my opinion about them or Apple imposes limitations on that too?


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Living in denial.
By chalupa on 11/9/2010 11:43:00 AM , Rating: 2
you have the righ, its capability you lack =P


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Living in denial.
By chalupa on 11/9/2010 11:52:39 AM , Rating: 2
touché


RE: Living in denial.
By CrazyBernie on 11/9/2010 12:21:40 PM , Rating: 1
Hey, keep your touching under control...

... wait, that wasn't right.


RE: Living in denial.
By DougF on 11/10/2010 8:13:35 AM , Rating: 2
I do not think this word means what you think it means...(apologies to Princess Bride fans)


RE: Living in denial.
By Misty Dingos on 11/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Living in denial.
By sprockkets on 11/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Living in denial.
By Reclaimer77 on 11/9/2010 12:25:27 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Hey I don't buy them either


What do you mean you don't buy them? Aren't you Pirks?

I swear you're creeping me out. Did someone hijack Pirks's account or something?


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Living in denial.
By Reclaimer77 on 11/9/2010 1:46:55 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I wish you were reading my posts Reclaimer ;) You either don't read them or read very selectively.


Yeah I was. You not only struck everyone as someone who bought Apple products, but also someone who had sex with them. Not trolling you, that's how you came off. And I'm not the only one who's noticed your change lately :)


RE: Living in denial.
By Anoxanmore on 11/9/2010 4:23:47 PM , Rating: 2
I missed you too, oldman. :P


RE: Living in denial.
By Reclaimer77 on 11/9/2010 6:31:12 PM , Rating: 2
Hi pretty lady :)


RE: Living in denial.
By Anoxanmore on 11/9/2010 12:49:34 PM , Rating: 1
I'm with you Reclaimer...

Pirks switched his view point(s) sometime in the past 3 months.

I think he got tired of the almost reader1-isk level of rating. ;)


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Living in denial.
By theapparition on 11/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Living in denial.
By theapparition on 11/9/2010 8:33:40 PM , Rating: 1
Whoa, sweeeeet burn dude! Took you over 30 minutes to come up with that.


RE: Living in denial.
By nafhan on 11/9/2010 11:32:55 AM , Rating: 2
If Steve makes a public statement that's utter nonsense, hey may get called out on it. Whether or not those who disagree with him own an Apple product is irrelevant. There are a lot of people who would rather have the option to use Flash on Apple products, but not enough that they forgo buying those products.


RE: Living in denial.
By XZerg on 11/9/2010 11:34:31 AM , Rating: 2
True however sadly and unfortunately the Apple market that is growing at an astounding rate (so are idiots in the world), Apple may create an idiotic standard where software companies/customers have to bend to the might of OS creator's vision instead of having their own vision.


RE: Living in denial.
By Murst on 11/9/2010 11:41:44 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Apple may create an idiotic standard where software companies/customers have to bend to the might of OS creator's vision instead of having their own vision.

You do realize that's the case of every OS? Its just that some OS creators' "vision" isn't a locked down OS.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Living in denial.
By nuarbnellaffej on 11/9/2010 12:05:06 PM , Rating: 2
Whats unfortunate I think, is that people are buying generally over priced hardware mostly on the basis of brand image.


RE: Living in denial.
By sprockkets on 11/9/2010 12:09:57 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed. A lot of people like the ease of use, but like me, don't think paying $1000 for a plastic macbook is worth it to get OSX.

Start selling OSX to OEMs, and watch them put it on normal hardware, and more people would buy it. Then Apple would die due to making nothing on overpriced hardware.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Living in denial.
By sprockkets on 11/9/2010 12:37:35 PM , Rating: 3
A $1000 piece of crap plastic outdated c2d mac book is $500 overpriced.

If it isn't come as overpriced then those people are just stupid. Win7 isn't the headache XP was either.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Living in denial.
By sprockkets on 11/9/2010 1:16:43 PM , Rating: 3
Except Sony sells their nice laptops with competition from cheap stuff like Acer.

I doubt Apple would survive and make the billions/margins they do with similar competition. And no, their ipods don't count because they happen to be reasonably priced.

It's really simple pirks. Something is overpriced when you can buy something similar or better for a lower price.

Paying $1000 for computers that have video issues, or $2700+ for stupid all in one systems that are DOA or have yellowish screens (and took weeks to get apple to admit it) with pitiful video cards are OVERPRICED.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Living in denial.
By Luticus on 11/9/2010 2:41:26 PM , Rating: 2
I have a couple of comments here.

quote:
That's still subjective since "better" is also subjective. What is better for you is worse for others. Simple eh?
All of this is completely opinionated. unless you do a detailed analysis of the "value" of an item/product you cannot determine if it is truly overpriced. While i definitely feel my $2500 work macbook pro is overpriced i don't think it's as overpriced as most people would. for instance, most people would take into account it's hard drive space, ram, video card, and processor and determine that equivalent parts can be had on a significantly less expensive laptop. However what people fail to account for is that laptops come in 2 parts (money wise), the monitor (screen) and the rest of the device. Apples LCD on the macbook pro is pretty, and probably hard to match on many other laptops. Apple is known for its high end displays. Much of the "value" of the laptop is probably there. It's really all about what matters to you as a consumer. For me it's all about speed, multi-tasking, and functionality, others may value very pretty glossy displays and back-lit keyboards. I can understand this logic, there is something to be said for little touches like back lighting and really pretty glossy displays, i just think $2500 is a bit "over-the-top".

quote:
Your claim WOULD BE valid IF all Macs were like this.
True, as a consumer we need to remember that all products are man made and that some quality issues are to be expected sometimes. Here we have a problem because Apple tells everyone to expect no issues and then they come out as man made as everyone else. This is why Apple gets crap for every little thing it does wrong. When you claim perfection you open yourself to scrutiny, it's their own fault really...


RE: Living in denial.
By SoCalBoomer on 11/9/2010 7:57:53 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, Apple's LCD screens are purchased from the same company that makes many other LCD screens - LG Display (http://www.macworld.com/article/138132/2009/01/lgd... - same technology, same manufacturer. . . there's nothing unique about Apple components anymore. LG Display is the second largest behind Samsung.

So when I compare the components in Apple's products to the same exact components in another computer, I'm indeed comparing apples to apples. . .

I have an Apple Cinema Display on my desk, right next to the same sized Dell monitor. Aside from the aluminium vs. plastic bezel, there's no longer any difference.


RE: Living in denial.
By Luticus on 11/10/2010 8:56:05 AM , Rating: 2
Point taken :)

If you go on a part for part basis then it is indeed possible to compare value. As i see no value in the operating system (at least no more than i see in any other), i feel it's fair to exclude it from analysis.


RE: Living in denial.
By sprockkets on 11/9/2010 2:44:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Same could be said about Apple since Acer competes with them too.


Acer doesn't sell computers with OSX. It's the only thing that makes macs "special."

quote:
That's still subjective since "better" is also subjective. What is better for you is worse for others. Simple eh?


What part of Intel's i3 or i5 processors beating the sh!t out of last generations C2D don't you understand as being objective?

quote:
Your claim WOULD BE valid IF all Macs were like this.


Seeing as how the new macbook air laptops were released with issues doesn't help your argument.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Living in denial.
By StevoLincolnite on 11/9/2010 4:14:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The part that's called nVidia IGP which beats the sh!t out of i3/i5 "GPU" and that's only compatible with last generation C2D. Ever heard of this part?


I'm sorry...

Without the PC you wouldn't have the nVidia GPU to power the Mac to begin with.

Just like you wouldn't have a Core 2 Duo processor to process stuff'.

The PC is far more flexible and powerful.
It has more choice, you do NOT have to buy a system with an Intel IGP or even an Intel processor.
Grab a system with a Radeon or Geforce and call it a day instead.
Want a couple of 6-core processors? You can do that to.
Water cooling? Yep, throw it in.

The PC has influenced several platforms during it's lifetime, consoles, phones, servers and even your re-branded PC a-la the Mac.


RE: Living in denial.
By sprockkets on 11/9/2010 4:26:42 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
OS X doesn't matter that much when we talk about consumer computers, so not an argument since we're talking consumer space here. Which means: if a consumer buys a standard home PC to browse web, email and chat, he/she doesn't give a jack what OS is there since there's almost no difference between 'em with regard to browsing/emailing/chatting. Got it?


Well by your logic you fail again as we can just buy something that costs $300 and not have to waste money on looks or OSX if it doesn't present any value to the buyer.

quote:
Nah, not the only one, hardware differs too.


Which is all style and no substance and adds nothing but $$$ to the cost of the computer and is why Apple makes all the money they do.

quote:
The part that's called nVidia IGP which beats the sh!t out of i3/i5 "GPU" and that's only compatible with last generation C2D. Ever heard of this part?


It doesn't anymore. Integrated graphics on the i series are no longer the crap they were when it was on the chiposet, and nothing stops Apple from adding on a simple graphics chip anyhow.

quote:
Seeing as how NOT ALL the new macbook air laptops were released with issues doesn't help your argument EITHER.


Apparently you don't get the point that issues like this are no longer the exception with Apple products but the rule. Maybe the $280 Acer netbook can have issues, but I don't pay $1000 minimum for a laptop that has issues that should have been caught before release with patches or firmware updates. EVERY release has been riddled with issues.

"It just works" is a joke. You pay extra for nothing.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 5:24:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
not have to waste money on looks or OSX if it doesn't present any value to the buyer
How about wasting money on better hardware and OS then? Is that acceptable in your book?
quote:
Which is all style and no substance
Yeah right, same weed as Reclaimer's. Screen/keyboard/touchpad/case/battery is all no substance. Only i3/i5 is substance, eh? :))) Sure, for you maybe but the market is not only you alone.
quote:
Integrated graphics on the i series are no longer the crap they were when it was on the chiposet
They still suck compared to nVidia IGP
quote:
nothing stops Apple from adding on a simple graphics chip anyhow
Why waste additional space for some extra chips when Apple can get better results with fewer chips using C2D and nVidia?
quote:
issues like this are no longer the exception with Apple products but the rule
Yeah it's just words. You saw a posting on DT and oh my god the sky's falling MacBooks are riddled etc etc. For you one post on DT equals widespread reality, that's a serious mistake to make. Otherwise I can claim based on forum posts that Windows is bug ridden crap and unusable too, so why people are even buying this cheap crap if it's so unbelievably bad? I can use your "forum post==reality" logic against you if you like. Would you like it tho? ;-)


RE: Living in denial.
By sprockkets on 11/9/2010 5:39:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
How about wasting money on better hardware and OS then? Is that acceptable in your book?


For the last time, better hardware can be found for less than Apple, every damn time.

quote:
Yeah right, same weed as Reclaimer's. Screen/keyboard/touchpad/case/battery is all no substance. Only i3/i5 is substance, eh? :))) Sure, for you maybe but the market is not only you alone.


Apple doesn't have a monopoly on high end laptops. Never has, never will.

quote:
They still suck compared to nVidia IGP


No it doesn't. Read up on benchmarks sometime on this very site. It isn't like nVidia's IGP gets 25 FPS and Intel gets 5 any more.

quote:
Why waste additional space for some extra chips when Apple can get better results with fewer chips using C2D and nVidia?


Why would they get better performance with last generation hardware? Besides, you act as if Mac people game.

quote:
Yeah it's just words. You saw a posting on DT and oh my god the sky's falling MacBooks are riddled etc etc. For you one post on DT equals widespread reality, that's a serious mistake to make. Otherwise I can claim based on forum posts that Windows is bug ridden crap and unusable too, so why people are even buying this cheap crap if it's so unbelievably bad? I can use your "forum post==reality" logic against you if you like. Would you like it tho? ;-)


I didn't see one post. I saw:

1. Postings on Apple's own forums of dying time capsules after 18 months. After several complaints and months later Apple finally acknowledges the issue.
2. Postings on MULTIPLE websites and their own forums and youtube videos of the yellowing issue, where the only resolution was to return the computer, which then presented people with the same issue.
3. Exploding batteries in ipods.
4. Iphone 4 issues with reception, and the solution to the issue is "You're holding it wrong!"
5. Iphone 4 again, using glass on both sides only to have it crack more often. Again, putting looks over substance.
6. Flickering of imac computers, with 3 firmware updates that had no effect on the issue, resolved perhaps via class action lawsuit.
7. Not using SATA3 on their mac book, then allowing users to do so, then finding out it can't actually handle it, and of course, providing no solution to the issue by allowing users to downgrade.
8. Disallowing google voice and adobe tools to convert flash apps to iphone apps. A year and a half later this is reversed due to pressure from the FTC.

Sh it, need I go on?


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 6:34:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
better hardware can be found for less than Apple
Just words. I couldn't find better laptops than Apple's if you consider metal case, weight, thickness, CPU/GPU speed, battery life, screen/keyboard/touchpad quality/comfort, safety from malware and lack of preinstalled crapware <<== everything from this list taken together and for the lower price than Apple's? Lotsa hot air from you and no substance. Don't believe you can beat Apple by all these parameters taken together. By some of them maybe but not by all together. And that's the point.
quote:
Apple doesn't have a monopoly on high end laptops
Agreed. Exactly what I said. Lotsa competition with Apple in a high end segment for sure.
quote:
Read up on benchmarks sometime on this very site. It isn't like nVidia's IGP gets 25 FPS and Intel gets 5 any more
I agree Intel IGP doesn't suck as deep as it used to but it still does. Maybe SB will fix that finally but nVidia IGPs don't stand still either so who knows
quote:
Why would they get better performance with last generation hardware? Besides, you act as if Mac people game
Maybe Apple plans some OpenCL stuff in their next OS release and builds up their hardware base to use it. This would explain why the decided for nicer GPU than in comparable ultraportable PCs.
quote:
Sh it, need I go on?
You have no idea how many posts with troubles I've seen on PC forums. So should I start bashing Windows and start expressing all sort of surprise and awe asking why people keep buying this cheap crap that doesn't even turn on or something?


RE: Living in denial.
By StevoLincolnite on 11/9/2010 11:57:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
They still suck compared to nVidia IGP


Not everyone needs a relatively power hungry and hot additional GPU to power a system when all they do is use Facebook/Youtube/Email. - Intels Integrated Decelerators are more than ample for such a task.

quote:
Why waste additional space for some extra chips when Apple can get better results with fewer chips using C2D and nVidia?


If anything you would end up with less chips by going i3, as most of the chipset is integrated on the CPU which is manufactured at a lower process node which means the chipset parts are more energy efficient and cheaper.


RE: Living in denial.
By YerMomma on 11/9/2010 8:32:22 PM , Rating: 2
Some people call Lexus, Infinity, Acura and Mercedez Benz overpriced as well, but for those that own them, they understand that you get what you pay for.

It's not just about what you get RIGHT NOW, it's also about support after the fact, Acer, Dell, Toshiba, HP, and especially Sony and most other cheap companies offers very little support once you buy the computer.

If something should go wrong, chances are you will talk to someone in India who can barely speak english and has probably never owned a computer in his life.... But wait you may get lucky and get somebody who speaks English and lives in America, but they don't actually know a damn thing about the Windows operating system and just tell you to wipe and reinstall anytime there is any problem at all.

Now call Apple tech support, you will speak with someone named John, or Chris or some other American name, and they will speak English, and they are actually familiar with OSX and trained and able to help you fix problems without just wiping and reinstalling, if you get disconnected they will call you back, they will spend hours helping you if needed. If it is actually broken, they will often overnight you a new one.

I seriously dare you to find another manufacturer that has support anywhere near Apple for non-business products.

You get what you pay for...


RE: Living in denial.
By sprockkets on 11/9/2010 10:47:28 PM , Rating: 2
Dell tech support can be had in the US. YES, you have to pay extra for those people in the US.

But it isn't as if others do not do it.


RE: Living in denial.
By sprockkets on 11/9/2010 1:16:46 PM , Rating: 2
Except Sony sells their nice laptops with competition from cheap stuff like Acer.

I doubt Apple would survive and make the billions/margins they do with similar competition. And no, their ipods don't count because they happen to be reasonably priced.

It's really simple pirks. Something is overpriced when you can buy something similar or better for a lower price.

Paying $1000 for computers that have video issues, or $2700+ for stupid all in one systems that are DOA or have yellowish screens (and took weeks to get apple to admit it) with pitiful video cards are OVERPRICED.


RE: Living in denial.
By Reclaimer77 on 11/9/2010 2:00:58 PM , Rating: 1
I can't believe people still argue this. Of course Mac's are overpriced. They use the same exact hardware as the "other guys". Well actually they use the same hardware as the other guys LAST generation machines, but I digress.

What justifies the price are the intangibles. The social aspect, the envy factor, bla bla bla. Or perhaps the proprietary OS. That's how Apple justifies the price. None of these leads a benchmark, or a performance comparison, or a price point chart. Nothing adds value over the competition, so what are you paying more for?

It's the same reason why Bose is a top selling AND highly regarded speaker audio brand. Namely, people are stupid. Guess what? Bose is SHIT. They are the absolutely worst audio speaker you can possibly buy and the poorest made of any major brand. Have you ever taken a Bose speaker apart? They're shit. And let's not even get started on the marketing snow-job that is their all in one mini systems or clockradiocdplayer jobs. Ugh!

But come on, we all know that on a purely physical and tangible level, Apple products are overpriced for WHAT THEY ARE.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 2:13:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What justifies the price are the intangibles
So high quality screens, keyboards, touchpads, light/thin metal cases, long battery life, lack of malware/preloaded crapware are all intangibles? I want the weed ya smokin :)))
quote:
Apple products are overpriced for WHAT _I THINK_ THEY ARE
Now, that's much closer to truth son :))) Keep it like that.


RE: Living in denial.
By sprockkets on 11/9/2010 2:40:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So high quality screens, keyboards, touchpads, light/thin metal cases, long battery life, lack of malware/preloaded crapware are all intangibles? I want the weed ya smokin :)))


Really? Still going to ignore that $1000 PLASTIC laptop they sell?

Ignorance is bliss.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 3:12:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Still going to ignore that $1000 PLASTIC laptop they sell?
No, I'm not ignoring it. I think I'd agree with you here - it explains why it's so cheap compared to other macbooks ;)


RE: Living in denial.
By Reclaimer77 on 11/9/2010 4:33:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So high quality screens, keyboards, touchpads, light/thin metal cases, long battery life, lack of malware/preloaded crapware are all intangibles? I want the weed ya smokin :)))


You're right, that stuff totally adds $500 bucks to a laptop. Because nobody else has good screens, keyboards or a touchpad.

You Apple people are funny. Keyboards !? They aren't even ergonomic. Apple keyboards are THE most basic, cheapest to make, keyboards out there. Enjoy the carpal tunnel! But oh, yeah, they are backlit! Oohhhhh ! Ahhhhh!

And Pirks, please, don't ever EVER call me "son". You have just about as much chance of being older and more mature than me as I have being in High School again.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 5:34:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
nobody else has good screens, keyboards or a touchpad
For the same price as a MacBook? Of coure yes, there are good screens/keyboards/etc in PCs as well, for the same price of course ;-)


RE: Living in denial.
By StevoLincolnite on 11/9/2010 11:59:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
for the same price of course ;-)


Or less, just gotta' shop around and look at the dizzying amount of choice you have. :)


RE: Living in denial.
By robinthakur on 11/10/2010 5:30:42 AM , Rating: 2
You point out the answer to your own question, namely that if the people that buy Apple products thought they were genuinely overpriced, then they wouldn't buy them. Consumers are quite savvy these days and are used to shopping around for things on the internet to drive the price down, so labelling everybody that buys a mac as stupid is not only insulting but patently false as well.

It is completely possible that the plastic macbook is considered a better overall computer for its price by a potential buyer than its PC equivalent for other reasons than the specs or the chassis material. Despite using the same hardware as the other guys, the experience of using a Mac is radically different to using a PC. Namely, other people they know use Apples so you have the compatibility and social aspect aspect, they prefer the OSX environment, they are upgrading from another Mac or the software which they need to use works best on a Mac. It could be that for what the intended usage pattern is, and running OSX the specs of a Macbook are perfectly adequate. It might even be that they like the packaging, design and buying experience with Apple which is much harder to quantify. Whatever, it's hard to imagine that everyone who buys a Mac doesn't have some relative, acquaintance or well-wisher screaming at them that PC's are far better value)

Also, a lot of people have had bad experiences with PC's, mostly from the era prior to Windows 7 where XP/IE6 had major issues with security and Vista was a colossal resources hog, or they might associate it with being too work oriented and I think as technically adept people (my job is IT) you tend not to notice, put up with or skip over issues which totally freak out end users. With Macs you get less of that, simple. Not to say that Kernel Panics and other shenanigans never occur, because they do, but in general fewer things go wrong, especially in an all Apple environment.

None of those latter reasons are important to me personally, but I would never call people stupid for valuing these things, each person is entitled to spend their own money as they see fit. I use Macs and PC's quite happily in both work and at home and the cost difference between Mac's and PC's for things at Macbook Pro levels are not considerable (for me) when you take into account the superior build quality. If you can't see that Macbook pro's at least have vastly superior build and design quality than their plasticy pc equivalents (with a couple of notable exceptions like some Lenovos and a couple of the Dell lines), you are delusional. Also, the Macbook's plastic shell was, I recall, brought back due to customer demand because people didn't like the Aluminium unibody design, so go figure :)


RE: Living in denial.
By nuarbnellaffej on 11/9/2010 2:00:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There is no such thing as overpriced hardware. What is overpriced for you is underpriced for someone else. Keep your subjective views to yourself. The market is always right, not you, and the market thinks Apple devices are NOT overpriced, judging by the ever growing Apple sales.

Well then, by that logic nothing is overpriced, but I understand the argument you are pursuing here, so ill substitute "over priced" with "poor value" since one can generally get a PC with much better hardware than you could with a mac in the same price range.

Also the market is not always right, if it were then economic bubbles would not occur, and things like cigarettes wouldn't be skyrocketing in popularity throughout the developing world.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 2:21:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
substitute "over priced" with "poor value" since one can generally get a PC with much better hardware than you could with a mac in the same price range
This is true only for those people who care about hardware specs and nothing else, hence your judgment is no less subjective than that of sprokket's.
quote:
things like cigarettes wouldn't be skyrocketing in popularity throughout the developing world
You can also say here "things like MS Windows wouldn't be skyrocketing in popularity throughout the developing world", can't you? Hehe, make you own conclusions about the power of market now :P Your choice!


RE: Living in denial.
By nuarbnellaffej on 11/9/2010 3:13:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You can also say here "things like MS Windows wouldn't be skyrocketing in popularity throughout the developing world", can't you? Hehe, make you own conclusions about the power of market now :P Your choice!

This bit is pretty incoherent, and I honestly cannot understand what it is you are asking me. I will mention that I am a libertarian, and understand the power of the free market, but to imply that it is always right is very shortsighted. Again I will ask you to explain how economic bubbles, and rampant speculation can occur if the market is always right.

Also, I mentioned the rise in the popularity cigarettes as an example of how we cannot always let the market decide what is best for us. The point being that, the harm tobacco inflicts to human health puts a massive burden on the worlds limited health care resources, not too mention the countless people who die prematurely because of them. If this sounds condescending, then perhaps I should mention that I myself smoke, so no, I understand that I am not without faults of my own.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 3:26:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
imply that market is always right is very shortsighted
Hence you imply that widespread market adoption of Windows about 10-15 years ago could have been very shortsighted market's decision, eh? ;-)
quote:
we cannot always let the market decide what is best for us
Question then is: can we let the market decide that Windows is best for us? 'Cause the market decided Windows is the best. Do you think that market was wrong when making this decision?


RE: Living in denial.
By nuarbnellaffej on 11/9/2010 4:57:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Hence you imply that widespread market adoption of Windows about 10-15 years ago could have been very shortsighted market's decision, eh? ;-)

I suppose it's possible, but no, that was not what I was implying.
quote:
Question then is: can we let the market decide that Windows is best for us?

I don't think we should let the market "decide" what is best for us when it comes to personal purchases, we should instead make an informed decision based on what is best for ourselves, since that is how the free market actually works.


RE: Living in denial.
By sviola on 11/9/2010 12:41:05 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
It's a good thing computers finally get into the lives of simple uneducated tech-illiterate people. If MS failed to do this (they mostly conquered businesses but failed at consumer space) somebody had to do this instead and a Californian company with a perfectionist PR-savvy CEO is the best candidate. At least market thinks so and market is never wrong as you should know.


So, MS having 90%+ of worldwide market share means they failed at consumer space? You seriously need to stop driking Apple's kool-aid...


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 12:58:48 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
MS having 90%+ of worldwide market share means they failed at consumer space?
Yes if their majority market share is in the corporate space. Especially when consumer oriented Apple business brings more revenue than that of MS. Have you seen most recent Apple financial results and compared them to MS? MS is not only way behind by market cap and by cash reserves, it is _also_ behind now in revenue! Believe it or not ;-)

Wake up, MS fanboy, wake up and smell the ashes. MS used to be the king of the hill 10 years ago, but is not anymore. It's losing to Apple, slowly but surely. Probably next thing to lose will be profits. Margin - I don't know, hopefully at least MS super high margin won't budge but if Swash is right here (I hope he isn't but only time will tell) then MS will lose its legendary margin as well the moment they lose their monopoly. Which won't happen any time soon for sure but don't you think they will be able to keep their monopoly forever.


RE: Living in denial.
By Dankbuddha on 11/9/2010 1:45:47 PM , Rating: 2
It's about profits son, not revenue. MS had double the profits apple did. Apple would have to double its sales to even hang on MS's nuts. Fail comment is fail.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 2:04:24 PM , Rating: 1
If Apple passed MS on market cap, cash reserves and revenue I don't see the reason why they won't pass MS in profits. Especially given that MS monopoly may crumble in future (not a given but possible). No monopoly ==>> no high profits for MS.


RE: Living in denial.
By Luticus on 11/9/2010 2:29:31 PM , Rating: 2
The thing i disagree with here is the sentiment that Microsoft has a monopoly. If Microsoft went away today the world would suffer and it would suck but we could survive and maintain our digital lives on alternative products. There are competitors to Microsoft in all aspects of their business, they may not be as good of a solution but they are there. Granted Microsoft has a huge market saturation in some very important key areas and that has been keeping them maybe, slightly artificially inflated throughout the years. However, people here talk as though Microsoft doesn't make good quality products and that they are only in the position they are in now because they had an initial boot and that gained them market domination and consumer dependence. While this is somewhat true, Microsoft does indeed make good products. If they did not then they surely would have been surpassed a long time ago. That whole consumer dependence and monopoly card only works for so long and that span of time ran out during the Windows XP "era" as far as i am concerned (granted that's opinionated, but i think most rational people would agree). Otherwise i agree, if Microsoft is surpassed in market cap, cash reserves, and revenue then it's pretty logical to assume that profit would follow. Specifically if they remain surpassed for a long duration.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 2:51:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The thing i disagree with here is the sentiment that Microsoft has a monopoly
If you don't like this word then call it something else, say "domination" but word shuffling can't mask the fact that MS became obese, ignorant, lazy, not a nimble quick player they used to be, and hence in general lost competitive spirit and great/slim/athletic corporate shape a long ago. Xbox was a string of two failures (second is who knows how many billions sunk into fixing RROD disaster), WinMobile is a loser, Zune is a loser, Kin is a running joke, everything besides their cash cows is almost nil, they can't break into new markets and this spells doom and/or stagnation in the end.

Why so? Because they don't have to really push it, they became lazy and complacent. People will buy Windows since they have no real choice because so much software is Windows only, things are pretty much 100% Win-only in corporate world. Only MS can allow themselves to sink billions in Xbox/Zune/Kin/etc and hot feel a pinch. Wasted billions here? Whatever. Another billion here? Doh.

With such an attitute the natural way is down. IE is declining, everything else that's not Windows legacy is declining, with monopoly/domination going away the super profits will go away too, this is inevitable. I don't know what Ballmer is thinking, he's not a good CEO for sure. Can't name a decent replacement either.


RE: Living in denial.
By Luticus on 11/9/2010 3:10:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
say "domination" but word shuffling can't mask the fact that MS became obese, ignorant, lazy, not a nimble quick player they used to be

actually i used the word "saturation" in my prior post and i think it's a good word :)

As for the obese, ignorant, lazy bit that's maybe 1/4 true. MS office has always been a good product (bit pricey but good)... Windows 7 was a massive improvement over both XP and Vista, and is selling very well. IE9 is crazy awesome, i only wish they'd make one for mac/linux, and IE8 was pretty good to (as a network admin i could appreciate it). WP7 is sort of up in the air, but retail wise it does look promising and in the future it will probably get a lot better. xbox had some issues out the door but it too has improved a lot. Kinect concerns me and i am not too optimistic about it though. Zune is becoming software now and from what i've seen the software looks good. My guess is that WMP, WMC, and Zune will all merge to become one thing (called Zune). Bing hasn't done that well yet but it is getting better all the time and for now it's the only real alternative to google that's worth anything.

quote:
People will buy Windows since they have no real choice
The only people who don't really have much choice are PC gamers (a declining market) and massive corporations because there is no viable competitor to Microsoft. The consumer market either has the software on more than one platform or there is competitor software that does the same thing on multiple platforms. Literally I can switch to linux and loose very little functionality as far as what i can and can't do with my PC. The reason i like windows is based on merit, i believe it to be a superior product that will help me do things faster and easier and at the same time not compromise my freedom/customization capabilities as bad as OSX will.

quote:
with monopoly/domination going away the super profits will go away too, this is inevitable
Apple manages just find and they have less than 10%, do you believe Microsoft incapable of this? Even if you do, it will be a long time (if ever) that Microsoft sees the small market that Apple has (desktop OS wise).


RE: Living in denial.
By ChristopherO on 11/9/2010 1:08:11 PM , Rating: 2
Apple is free to impose limitations? Wow, at least you admit they are hosing the consumer by clearly stating they are imposing a "limitation." Limitations bad. Choices good.

Funny, Microsoft isn't allowed to impose limitations. For example they aren't allowed to prevent any OEMs from installing whatever bloatware they want. Windows used to be a lot faster and cleaner before Dell could install more garbage than the average person knows how to remove.

How about this... We hold Apple and MS to the exact same standards. As of now, Apple is rapidly speeding towards a future where they will tell people what they're allowed to run. Don't like Safari? Tough luck, you're not allowed to install other browsers. Why? Because the holy Mr. Jobs doesn't like them.

Don't think that's going to happen? Jobs is probably the biggest ego-maniac and control-freak in Silicon Valley.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 1:28:48 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Limitations bad. Choices good.
Yeah, present kids in the store with a choice of all sorts of guns, 'cause "limitations bad" right?
quote:
We hold Apple and MS to the exact same standards
Not before Apple grabs same market share in desktops/laptops as MS.


RE: Living in denial.
By chalupa on 11/9/2010 11:50:29 AM , Rating: 2
-1. you damn hitler lovers =)


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Living in denial.
By Luticus on 11/9/2010 1:08:20 PM , Rating: 2
DT isn't swarming with apple haters, it's swarming with people who can stand apples smug ass fans...


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 1:25:21 PM , Rating: 1
Don't see smug ass Apple fans here. Swash is not that much of a smug to me, I've seen WAY more smug ones. He's just a mild case ;-)

In fact Apple fans never visit DT because this site is known haven for PC freaks, what would Apple fanboys do here? Discuss stuff they have no idea about like crazy Anand's overclocking sessions? Haha, not even funny.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 1:44:01 PM , Rating: 2
Oops, just noticed hexxthalion, so maybe Luticus is kind of right...


RE: Living in denial.
By Luticus on 11/9/2010 1:58:02 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Don't see smug ass Apple fans here. Swash is not that much of a smug to me
you must not have seen the article swash posted on the "mac not providing antivirus" DT article. That article actually compared os 10.6 to windows pre-NT...

quote:
what would Apple fanboys do here?
Dunno but the handful we get seem to find little ways to make their marks...

quote:
Oops, just noticed hexxthalion, so maybe Luticus is kind of right...
*tips hat* Glad you can appreciate my sentiments to some degree :)


RE: Living in denial.
By StevoLincolnite on 11/10/2010 12:02:15 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Discuss stuff they have no idea about like crazy Anand's overclocking sessions?


This may sound like a stupid question... (I've never owned an Apple product in my life, always found better alternatives.)

But can you even overclock on an Apple? I always like more performance for free... (Like my 6-core Phenom running at 4ghz, can't complain about that!)


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/10/2010 9:38:11 AM , Rating: 2
I stopped overclocking my Windows PCs like 5 years ago and honestly don't see any reason why would anyone want that. Stock CPUs/GPUs are way faster than necessary and cheap to boot. Overclocking these days is just a useless waste of money and time, IMHO.


RE: Living in denial.
By Reclaimer77 on 11/10/2010 9:38:37 AM , Rating: 2
I doubt it. The bios on Apple products is more locked down than Fort Knox.


RE: Living in denial.
By Pirks on 11/10/2010 12:54:55 PM , Rating: 2
yeah and it's called NOT "bios", lamo :PPP


RE: Living in denial.
By Luticus on 11/10/2010 4:53:35 PM , Rating: 2
Umm, "and it's not called bios" i'm guessing is what you meant.

EFI would be the word you're looking for :P


RE: Living in denial.
By Reclaimer77 on 11/10/2010 7:11:04 PM , Rating: 1
Bios, EFI, whatever. Point is if it's Apple, it's going to be locked down tighter than a drum.

EFI is a huge step backwards from the standard PC Bios by the way. But of course, because Jobs says so, it's "better". Have fun remembering those DOS commands! :)


RE: Living in denial.
By wolrah on 11/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Living in denial.
By chris2618 on 11/9/2010 11:53:37 AM , Rating: 2
"32 bit windows"
i have 64 and see no problems

"It's Apple's problem that Adobe can't write a secure plugin worth anything, so every machine they ship Flash on is vulnerable to exploitation unless updated immediately?"
They issued an update whats you problem. atleast adobe admits it made an error and issued a solution.

"Anyways, you can just download Flash still"
unless you have something running ios


RE: Living in denial.
By kmmatney on 11/9/2010 12:55:21 PM , Rating: 2
Adobe needs to improve flash. I don't see why adding a few Flash ads on a page uses so many resources. If your playing a game, the battery loss can be justified, but showing Ads? I try to remember to use Chrome with Flashblock when I'm on battery (Dell 9400), but it sucks I have to do that.

I think its the web sites fault (even Anandtech) for using Flash to display ads - it defeats the purpose of the Ads if users have to turn off flash to save battery life.


RE: Living in denial.
By androidOwnage on 11/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Living in denial.
By chrish89 on 11/9/2010 4:16:36 PM , Rating: 2
Your my hero.


Apple is denying Adobe and Freedom.
By Mitch101 on 11/9/2010 10:25:31 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Apple is denying customers freedom on on the internet, says Adobe's technology chief


The problem here is Adobe views themselves as though they are HTML (The Internet document standard) when Adobe Flash is eye candy to HTML.

I think its a little strong of a statement to make that Apple is denying freedom when they are actually denying Adobe Flash. Sure its probably so it doesnt undermine the App store but you know that going into buying an Apple product.

Im no fan of Apple but I personally dont use flash on my websites because its eye candy and has no relevance to search engines. It can also effect your page ranking when your pages load slow due to loading flash. Sure its efficient but every millisecond counts in page rank now.




RE: Apple is denying Adobe and Freedom.
By Luticus on 11/9/2010 10:54:27 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
I think its a little strong of a statement to make that Apple is denying freedom

They ARE denying freedom. If I want to have flash on my system is MY choice to make and has nothing to do with Mr. Jobs... then again, like you said, people "hopefully" know what they are buying into before they spend their money and as such they have the "freedom" to choose not to purchase said products.

quote:
The problem here is Adobe views themselves as though they are HTML

I don't really think this is relevant. Adobe is a company who's trying to keep their format alive and Apple is basically screwing them. Adobe isn't an internet "standard" but they are a hugely supported format that a lot of developers/content providers use. Denying flash is like denying a third of the internet to your customers.

Again it's for the customers to say no to this but i still think what Apple is doing is wrong. They don't need to support it out of the door but don't go out of your way to break it!


RE: Apple is denying Adobe and Freedom.
By ICBM on 11/9/2010 11:17:44 AM , Rating: 4
I would argue that Flash is a standard. I mean, if Flash isn't a standard, what constitutes a "standard." So its closed source, who cares! Is anyone going to argue that Windows isn't the standard to which all other operating systems compare themselves to? With enormous amount of Flash content across the entire web, I would say it has reached the point of standard.


By Luticus on 11/9/2010 4:44:33 PM , Rating: 2
I can accept that argument.


RE: Apple is denying Adobe and Freedom.
By Flunk on 11/9/2010 11:18:49 AM , Rating: 2
They aren't denying you freedom because you have the choice to buy your hardware from another vendor. Show them you want choice by buying products that do what you want them to, not heavily locked down ones that don't.


By Luticus on 11/9/2010 12:40:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
They aren't denying you freedom because you have the choice to buy your hardware from another vendor.
as my prior post indicated, i agree :)


RE: Apple is denying Adobe and Freedom.
By Tony Swash on 11/9/10, Rating: 0
By nuarbnellaffej on 11/9/2010 12:00:23 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Adobe has no right to have a format maintained in perpetuity. Let the market decide. Apple says no flash on our mobile our devices, buy another of the many alternative brands if you want flash. If Flash mattered that much to end users or really was such an irreplaceable or valuable technology then it would be Apple and not Adobe that suffered as a consequence of not supporting it.


That's all fine and well, but it doesn't really negate the frustration I have when browsing on my ipod touch, only to find many of my favorite sites are unusable because of the lack of flash support.. I bought the first generation model it when it first came out, so there weren't really any competitors.

Corporate politics seem to be higher on the agenda than the end user experience for apple, which is really quite frustrating. I will exert my influence on the market next time I purchase an mp3 player!


By Reclaimer77 on 11/9/2010 12:31:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Flash is dying...


Before I outright beat you in the head for making, yet another, idiotic ignorant statement may I ask what you are basing this on?

Or is it dying because Jobs told you HTML5 is the new king?


RE: Apple is denying Adobe and Freedom.
By sviola on 11/9/2010 12:47:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Adobe has no right to have a format maintained in perpetuity. Let the market decide. Apple says no flash on our mobile our devices, buy another of the many alternative brands if you want flash.


No they don't. But what Apple is doing is also not market decision. One thing is to not support the plataform, the other is to talk thrash about a competing product (but that has always been Apple's stance on competion: big brother comercials, pc vs mac and now this anti-flash campaign).


By Tony Swash on 11/9/2010 6:44:57 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
the other is to talk thrash about a competing product (but that has always been Apple's stance on competion:


Give me some examples of Apple talking trash about Adobe or even Flash.

Bet you can't find many.

Apple simply declined to allow Flash on it's i-Devices. There was a lot of comment about and discussion about this but Apple said nothing. Eventually Steve Jobs posted his "Thoughts on Flash" which seemed to me to be short, to the point and couched in reasonable language.

Since then Apple's execs have answered some questions about it when pressed in public about their corporate policy on Flash but they don't attack Adobe, they don't issue press releases attacking Adobe, they don't blog about Flash, they don't trash anything.

Apple have said very little.

There has been a huge amount of comment but very little is from Apple.

Add up all the statements made about this issue by Apple and Adobe and see how it balances out.

It's not Apple that is worked up about all this. They just said Flash is not up to scratch on mobile so we are not supporting it.


RE: Apple is denying Adobe and Freedom.
By Luticus on 11/9/2010 12:52:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If not why are you moaning about something which in no way affects you?
if you read my post i already indicated that users have the freedom to choose what they want to buy and therefore have already addressed this issue... this is a pointless rebuttal. My point was that they are denying the freedom of running flash to their customers. It doesn't affect me, and I don't care... this was just my opinion on the matter.

quote:
Adobe has no right to have a format maintained in perpetuity.
Adobe has a right to have any format it wants.

quote:
Let the market decide.
How can the market decide when jobs is doing that for them. There are no stickers on the iphone/ipad that stat "apple will continually break comparability with flash just to prevent it from working on our devices, buyers beware". My problem isn't that apple doesn't support flash, it's that they purposefully break flash so that it can't work. They are going out of their way to ban flash outright. That's the problem.


By Tony Swash on 11/10/2010 12:39:23 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
if you read my post i already indicated that users have the freedom to choose what they want to buy and therefore have already addressed this issue... this is a pointless rebuttal. My point was that they are denying the freedom of running flash to their customers. It doesn't affect me, and I don't care... this was just my opinion on the matter.


You may care (oddly ) about the lack of flash on a phone you don't own but there is very little evidence that the people who actually own the phone care.

quote:
Adobe has a right to have any format it wants.


But not the right to expect other companies to maintain that format just because Adobe wants them to.

quote:
How can the market decide when jobs is doing that for them. There are no stickers on the iphone/ipad that stat "apple will continually break comparability with flash just to prevent it from working on our devices, buyers beware". My problem isn't that apple doesn't support flash, it's that they purposefully break flash so that it can't work. They are going out of their way to ban flash outright. That's the problem.


That's silly. Why not a sticker saying "Microsoft Office Not Supported". Absurd. If customers felt conned or disappointed to find Flash unsupported they would either complain or return the iPhone. They do neither.

Lets face it - this is a non-issue in the real world but is used by Apple phobes to attack Apple in the name of some spurious made up freedom of choice argument. Either Apple's decision does not affect the future of Flash - in which case what is the fuss about - or it will - in which case Flash's real usefulness in the real world was so weak it could be damaged by one company not supporting it.


By chick0n on 11/9/2010 1:08:50 PM , Rating: 3
^ typical example of : another apple moron.


By ack on 11/9/2010 1:16:37 PM , Rating: 2
LOL... enjoy your iAds. Unlike Flash, good luck trying to block or uninstall it.


By ack on 11/9/2010 1:16:59 PM , Rating: 2
LOL... enjoy the iAds. Unlike Flash, good luck trying to block or uninstall it.


By ack on 11/9/2010 1:17:07 PM , Rating: 2
LOL... enjoy the iAds. Unlike Flash, good luck trying to block or uninstall it.


By ack on 11/9/2010 1:17:13 PM , Rating: 2
LOL... enjoy the iAds. Unlike Flash, good luck trying to block or uninstall it.


By ack on 11/9/2010 1:17:51 PM , Rating: 2
LOL... enjoy the iAds. Unlike Flash, good luck trying to block or uninstall it.


By ack on 11/9/2010 1:18:06 PM , Rating: 2
LOL... enjoy the iAds. Unlike Flash, good luck trying to block or uninstall it.


By ack on 11/9/2010 1:18:19 PM , Rating: 2
LOL... enjoy the iAds. Unlike Flash, good luck trying to block or uninstall it.


By ack on 11/9/2010 1:18:38 PM , Rating: 2
LOL... enjoy the iAds. Unlike Flash, good luck trying to block or uninstall it.


By ack on 11/9/2010 1:20:15 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, I dunno WTF happened to my post....


By Pirks on 11/9/2010 1:33:06 PM , Rating: 2
clicky finger


By sapiens74 on 11/9/2010 2:23:27 PM , Rating: 2
using a FLASH based Troll posting tool?


meh...
By AssBall on 11/9/2010 10:28:12 AM , Rating: 2
7-10 MacBook Air usage I see, the people have em plugged in anyway... Why exclude flash for that particular reason? Apple clearly has another agenda that goes against real consumer interests. Not surprising since they dictate what their customers want (backwards much?).

As far as battery life goes, people generally buy and carry a spare, esp for high end (or in Apple's case, exorbitant) lappies.




RE: meh...
By Tony Swash on 11/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: meh...
By AssBall on 11/9/2010 12:23:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
problems caused by Flash outweigh it's benefits when it comes to user experience


Tell that to the 90% of people who use flash.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/os-market-share.as...

Adobe might deserve some criticisms, and have room for improvement, but you're going overboard saying it's a poorer user experience (to um, lets see.... NO useful widespread Apple alternative).


RE: meh...
By sviola on 11/9/2010 12:53:43 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
What is that agenda that you claim Apple has?


Isn't that crystal clear? If not here it is:

1) Flash Video Streaming = competition to itunes
2) Flash Games = competiotion to app store
3) Flash Adds = competition to iAds
4) Flash dev suite = competition to Apple's dev tools

So, to prevent loosing market, they prevent the technology to enter their plataform.


RE: meh...
By Tony Swash on 11/9/2010 5:30:32 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Isn't that crystal clear? If not here it is:

1) Flash Video Streaming = competition to itunes
2) Flash Games = competiotion to app store
3) Flash Adds = competition to iAds
4) Flash dev suite = competition to Apple's dev tools

So, to prevent loosing market, they prevent the technology to enter their plataform.


I think that's silly and illogical and there is plenty of evidence to suggest strongly that the motivation of Apple in blocking Flash on their i-devices is what they say it is - to prevent degradation of end user experience.

Consider these points:

Apple just approved an App Store app - Skyfire browser - that translates flash material on the web into a non flash optimised material that can run on iPhone. Same content as flash but different format.

I just bought an Apple TV and there in the menu is YouTube. Same content as flash but different format.

Apple makes almost no money on its content. Its makes almost all its money on its hardware. The content system Apple has created is to produce an enhanced value chain for its hardware. Apple uses content to make sure that it's users get the best integrated experience but it does not try to block non-Apple content. To take one example importing and exporting mp3 files in iTunes is very easy - Apple could block it but doesn't

I think that it's the Flash format that Apple distrusts. With good reason. Adobe have done an appalling job of supporting MacOSX over the years, they have consistently produced buggy and unstable versions of Flash, they have never delivered a mobile version of flash that isn't a resource hog.

Check out this Samsung Galaxy Tab review
ttp://www.bgr.com/2010/11/08/samsung-galaxy-tab-i mpressions/

the key quote is this

quote:
Browsing the web with Flash on (enabled by default) proved to be a pretty frustrating experience. Scrolling was jittery, slow, and sometimes pages just wouldn’t even finish loading. However, once we changed the browser’s plug-ins setting to on demand (think Click2Flash), the browser popped to life.


Stop fretting about non-existant Apple conspiracies and start demanding a flash free web. It will be better for all of us.


RE: meh...
By Luticus on 11/9/2010 1:03:21 PM , Rating: 2
Apple has an "agenda" of ensuring that it's app store is the only solution for installing apps on it's devices.


RE: meh...
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 1:14:20 PM , Rating: 2
Time to hate MS, Luticus! They too have the same agenda about WP7 :P


RE: meh...
By Luticus on 11/9/2010 1:52:59 PM , Rating: 2
right now i don't like any phone os vendor. i wish there were a pure linux phone os that was mature and worked well. I'm not interested in android, i hate ios, and wp7 scares the hell out of me. I'd stick with wm6.1 but the hardware is getting dated.


RE: meh...
By AssBall on 11/9/2010 2:25:40 PM , Rating: 2
Hahaha...

Better yet, bring back the 12 year old Nokia. Best cell phone I ever used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_5110.

Smart phones and their OS are getting out of control.


RE: meh...
By Anoxanmore on 11/9/2010 3:04:28 PM , Rating: 2
Pfft, StarTac (Motorola) is where it is at. :P

If you want a bar phone... DynaTAC.

Yes, I am dating myself here. :(


RE: meh...
By Luticus on 11/9/2010 3:20:16 PM , Rating: 2
OMG, I remember selling the startac (my first job was as a cellphone salesmen). Everyone loved the startac, people held on to that thing forEVER!.

Personally though, i love smart phones and want them to become more and more like desktop computer (functionality wise). That said i also want the freedoms my desktop offers me. Things like being able to install whatever program i want, the ability to develop in whatever language, "root" access, the freedom to tether unrestricted (i'm NOT paying you for mobile internet and then paying you extra to bridge it). These things are all quite important to me!


(more) objective battery life analysis
By nafhan on 11/9/2010 11:27:25 AM , Rating: 3
I kind of agree with Adobe here.
Install adblock and run the battery life numbers again before making statements like "installing Flash kills the battery life." I'd assume that adblock would bring the battery life numbers back up without locking you out of 90% of the streaming video and games on the web.




RE: (more) objective battery life analysis
By dgingeri on 11/9/2010 11:48:44 AM , Rating: 2
I'd have to confirm. I have several games on my android phone. Some are flash based, some aren't. the flash based games drain my battery like there's no tomorrow, at about 1% an hour. The non-flash based games don't drain my battery nearly as fast. Even my "Battery Performance" tracker shows certain flash based games drain my battery faster than my display.

For instance, Sudoku has my screen is nearly all white, which uses more display power, and doesn't drain my battery nearly as fast as the flash based game "Gem Miner" which leaves much of the screen black.

flash is a power hog. Plain and simple.


By The Raven on 11/9/2010 12:24:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
the flash based games drain my battery like there's no tomorrow, at about 1% an hour.

Holy crap! You have a phone that lasts 100 hrs on a single charge?!!


By nafhan on 11/9/2010 1:52:07 PM , Rating: 2
In case I wasn't clear enough, I was bringing up the question about what Flash does to battery life if it's installed but not in use.
Besides the fact that your example isn't subjective enough to really show anything, it's also irrelevant. The important thing is that you can play Gem Miner when you want to. Something you wouldn't be able to do if Flash wasn't available on your phone. That's also why adblock is nice: you only see Flash stuff (and it's only draining your battery) when you want to see it.


all wrong
By hexxthalion on 11/9/2010 1:36:31 PM , Rating: 2
flash kills battery on macbooks - that's the truth which has been in the wild for some time.

apple decided after long time that new macs won't come with flash pre-installed - like every single f***g PC so get over it

and they didn't advertise it in any way.

so grow up, get over it. flash on mac sucks. period




RE: all wrong
By kmmatney on 11/9/2010 2:18:48 PM , Rating: 2
Does flash on Macs suck any worse than flash running on Windows?


RE: all wrong
By gstrickler on 11/9/2010 7:31:02 PM , Rating: 2
Yes. Flash is a CPU hog on both, but it's always been significantly more of a CPU hog on Mac OS (going back to when Flash first appeared on a Mac). Flash on Linux is even worse.

Flash on Windows sucks.
Flash on Mac OS sucks worse.
Flash on Linux is virtually intolerable.


I don't think so
By bug77 on 11/9/2010 11:16:59 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
But at the end of the day, without those ads, most of our beloved web content, from news to social networks would not be financially viable.


Who says you need more than an (animated) image? Does anyone think flashier (no pun) ads equal more revenue? Make them more intrusive and you'll actually loose revenue, because users will tend to block more than they need to, just to get rid of annoyances.

And a bit more on-topic, yes, there will be battery usage for displaying content, but my windows machine won't go into standby whenever I have as much as one page using Flash open. And Windows is the premiere platform for Flash.




RE: I don't think so
By Murst on 11/9/2010 11:37:50 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Does anyone think flashier (no pun) ads equal more revenue?

Obviously many advertisers do, and considering the amount of money they spend on ads, I'm guessing there is some reason to it.

It might be hard to believe, but 'flashier' content probably tends to get people's attention more than 'standard' content.

Also, I'm pretty sure that they're not comparing animated gifs for these types of benchmarks, but probably decoding HD video - although I could be wrong on that...


you are correct jason
By kattanna on 11/9/2010 10:48:17 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
ArsTechnica's review may have been technically correct (that remains to be seen from future testing), but perhaps didn't put things in the proper context. Its conclusions are akin to writing "Every time I run Crysis, my Asustek laptop's battery life drops 50 percent! You might want to uninstall Crysis ASAP!"


that is completely correct. next im sure we will get an article about how powering up the laptop can dramatically shorten battery life too





Yep...
By xpax on 11/9/2010 11:52:42 AM , Rating: 3
The test was logically invalid from the beginning. But that's what I've come to expect from AppleTechnica these days.

The problem stems from the fact that they're owned by Conde Nast which also owns Wired. It's clear from the writing on both sites that Apple owns Conde Nast. Neither one ever criticizes Apple products -- it's always an obvious sales job rather than objective reporting.




How to easily block flash with IE
By kmmatney on 11/9/2010 1:02:53 PM , Rating: 2
In case you want to block flash with Internet Explorer 8:

http://lifehacker.com/5533694/use-internet-explore...

This works well - you can then decide which sites can run flash. I pretty much just have Youtube and Hulu running flash.




RE: How to easily block flash with IE
By Pirks on 11/9/2010 1:20:00 PM , Rating: 1
Nah, just use normal browser (Opera) instead of this MS pile of crap (hopefully IE9 won't stink as bad but you never know)

In Opera you can turn on/off images and/or plugins with just a couple of clicks, nothing beats Opera here!


Flash Performance
By Flunk on 11/9/2010 10:24:35 AM , Rating: 2
This is one of those a little bit from column a and a little bit from column b problems. Yes, running more software does use more battery life but it's also a factor of Flash's poor performance on OS X (and even more so Linux).

Benchmarks of all three OSs on the same hardware show a huge difference in performance between Windows and the other platforms. Now, the design of the systems in question are quite different so I'm not saying Adobe definitely deserves all the blame but it doesn't help this matter any that their plugin doesn't run very well on anything but Windows.




nut jobs
By chalupa on 11/9/2010 10:27:36 AM , Rating: 2
didn't you know apple devices are magical they are designed to look pretty and give you +100 smug points. What is this con-tent nonsence are you talking about.




heh heh, heh heh
By spamreader1 on 11/9/2010 10:51:14 AM , Rating: 2
"fruity competitors"




Holding your laptop incorrectly...
By masamasa on 11/9/2010 11:38:57 AM , Rating: 2
...kills battery life.




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