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Print 52 comment(s) - last by Samus.. on May 16 at 8:07 PM

AMD wants to put more pressure on NVIDIA's GTX 275

When ATI, the graphics division of AMD, first launched the Radeon HD 4890 video card at the beginning of April, we noted that the RV790 core it uses had a few tweaks in it. It is a respin of the original RV770 silicon, with retrained and rearchitectured power paths for greater power efficiency. We also noted that ATI engineers also used decoupling capacitors in a decap ring to increase signal integrity.

This enabled ATI to boost the core clock to 850MHz, up 100MHz from the Radeon HD 4870, but several reviewers were already overclocking the board up close to 1GHz using stock cooling for an additional performance boost.

Now, ATI and its Add-In Board partners are shipping factory overclocked graphics cards set at 1GHz, the first to break the 1GHz barrier using standard air cooling solutions. This enables the GPU to achieve 1.6 TeraFLOPs, a large jump over the 1.35 TeraFLOPs of the stock Radeon 4890. The GDDR5 memory may also be clocked higher, depending on the board partner.

The RV790 dies are tested after production at TSMC, and binned based on ATI's series of quality assurance tests. The highest performing chips are set at 1GHz for use in the new cards. AMD does warn that "damage caused by overclocking AMD’s GPUs above factory-set overclocking is not covered by AMD’s product warranty, even when such overclocking is enabled via AMD software".

Interestingly, AMD was the first to ship 1GHz CPUs back in March of 2000. It was the mighty Athlon built on a 0.25 micron process that bested the Pentium III.

Although most games will see a boost in performance, games using DirectX 10.1 such as S.T.A.L.K.E.R: Clear Sky and Tom Clancy’s H.A.W.X. should see an additional boost due to optimizations already present in the hardware.

General purpose GPU-accelerated Stream applications such as video transcoding and post processing should also see a jump in performance, as will OpenCL applications.


Radeon HD 4890 1GHz cards announced or shipping:

ASUS EAH4890 Formula
PowerColor PCS++ HD4890
Sapphire HD 4890 Atomic Edition
XFX’s ATI Radeon HD 4890 Black Edition


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Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By JasonMick (blog) on 5/14/2009 9:57:36 AM , Rating: 4
Its good to see AMD actually succeeding after all its troubles in the CPU market. Even if AMD's CPU business falters or fails, ATI/AMD's GPU business looks set to live on and thrive.

The only thing holding AMD's graphics offerings back and this point is their drivers. Their hardware at a given price point is arguably superior, despite NVIDIA's aggressive pricing -- however Nvidia still writes better drivers, so the competition is closer than one might think.




RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By afkrotch on 5/14/09, Rating: -1
RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By AnnihilatorX on 5/14/2009 10:17:21 AM , Rating: 2
They need a automatic switching profile based on active applications. Nvidia Forceware driver has this feature where you can choose which exe file works with which profile. In Catalyst driver you can only set custom profiles but no way of automatically switching them.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By 67STANG on 5/14/2009 11:55:47 AM , Rating: 2
RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By Samus on 5/16/2009 8:07:23 PM , Rating: 2
Arguably superior? How? All nVidia has at this point is CUDA and PhysX. ATI's architecture is more efficient, cheaper, uses less power, less space, less heat, runs quieter, and scales better. As far as drivers go....well, that is entirely debatable ;)


By Targon on 5/14/2009 1:06:26 PM , Rating: 3
Strange, for the past few years, NVIDIA driver QUALITY has been far from great. You may dislike the control mechanism, but that is a different issue than the drivers themselves.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By GTVic on 5/14/2009 6:56:10 PM , Rating: 4
FUD spreading troll, Forceware drivers are NOT way better. I have used both recently and the ATI drivers are easier to use. Adjusting NVidia settings was like accessing a web page over dialup.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By Lakku on 5/14/2009 11:46:58 PM , Rating: 1
Whose spreading FUD now? Claiming a process as fact seems pretty troll like to me, considering both the ATi way and nVidia's way has it's merits. I for one find the fact nVidia has more settings for me to mess with to be a nice touch even if it can be more confusing. It's a personal preference, and ATi may or may not be easier to use. But everyone misses the one factual thing one can point out to here. Out of all these posts, no one mentions all the recent ATi 'hotfixes' and breaks monthly driver releases sometimes introduce. Anandtech has talked about it as well as others. A product of nVidia having way more devs in the Way It's Meant to Be Played? Probably, but newer games have been better on nVidia cards as of late at initial release on numerous occasions.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By FITCamaro on 5/14/2009 10:11:05 AM , Rating: 2
I've never had an issue with their drivers other than a few issues with multi-monitor support. As far as gaming though, no issues.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By xti on 5/14/2009 11:24:24 AM , Rating: 1
i actually hate both the ATI CCC and the advanced control panel (cant think of the official name right now) that Nvidia has.

but i hate the nvidia one a lot less.

CCC has always been sluggish. I returned a 4850 just b/c of it, running SLI 260s now but i detest going into the nvidia panel ever.

hopefully they start working on it, its like the itunes of the graphics world.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By Alpha4 on 5/14/2009 4:48:47 PM , Rating: 2
Do you know if ATI drivers can properly scale flat panel aspect ratios?

For as long as I can remember Nvidia's Forceware control panel has offered flat-panel-scaling, but fails at actually implementing it. It's an empty shell of a feature, basically.


By kmmatney on 5/14/2009 5:22:08 PM , Rating: 2
My HD4830 and HD4890 cards both perform perfect scaling. You can choose 1:1 scaling, as well as aspect ratio scaling, and both modes worked perfect for me.


By piroroadkill on 5/14/2009 5:50:37 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, it works perfectly on ATI cards.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By Bull Dog on 5/14/2009 6:02:01 PM , Rating: 2
I'll 3rd that. ATI drivers have perfect scaling. You can select to have all the scaling to be done by the GPU. Thus making the scaling monitor independent.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By Lakku on 5/14/2009 11:38:24 PM , Rating: 2
That can be done on nVidia GPU's as well, to select scaling be done on the monitor/TV, by the GPU, or in other various ways.


By Alpha4 on 5/15/2009 4:50:01 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
That can be done on nVidia GPU's as well, to select scaling be done on the monitor/TV, by the GPU, or in other various ways.
The feature is not fully functional unfortunately. I notice that the drivers will display a 4:3 image properly if the vertical resolution is consistent with the panel's native resolution (such as 1600x1200 on a 1920x1200 LCD). However if I set resolution to 1920x1080 the image is always vertically stretched to encompass the entire display, slightly blurring the image.

What I would like it to do (which was possible before 176.xx nvidia drivers) is display at native resolution with letter-boxes across the top & bottom. On a 1680x1050 display it'll properly scale to 4:3 ratio with 1400x1050, but won't do 1280x1024 properly because the vertical res doesn't match.

the same goes with 640x480 on all widescreen displays. The image doesn't stretch to take in the available vertical space while letter-boxing the sides, it simply stretches the whole display in the ugliest manner possible.

That is how nVidia Flat-Panel-Scaling is broken.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By StevoLincolnite on 5/14/2009 11:35:56 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
The only thing holding AMD's graphics offerings back and this point is their drivers.


I 100% agree with you on that one, however after getting in bed with the Omega Drivers I'll never go back, the amount of tweaking and performance enhancements at your finger tips is awesome, I also find the Radeon version of the Omega drivers to be better than nVidia's as well.


By trisct on 5/15/2009 9:52:40 AM , Rating: 2
Only problem is the Omega drivers are a year behind. Not always a feasible situation if you want to play the latest games. Actually it looks kind of like the guy writing them has not updated his website since early last year.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By Arramol on 5/14/2009 11:51:30 AM , Rating: 4
Good crap, AMD/ATI's drivers are even worse? I was thinking about getting a Radeon for my next card simply because I've had such rotten luck with the drivers for my GeForce 8-series on Vista. It's basically been "flip a coin" to see if it'll come out of standby or give me a BSOD, even after numerous driver upgrades. Thought the chipset (also NVIDIA) might be contributing, but the driver mentioned in the BSOD is a video driver.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By Targon on 5/14/2009 1:10:48 PM , Rating: 5
The AMD drivers for Vista have been a LOT more stable than the drivers from NVIDIA for the past two years. There may be some things where NVIDIA has an advantage in when it comes to games, but spending a ton of money for game developers to code with only NVIDIA cards in mind will do that.

In general, I hear fewer problems with driver stability from Radeon owners. People forget the, 'Roll back to the last series of NVIDIA drivers because the new ones break this and that' which is fairly common. They also forget that AMD releases new drivers each month, so even if the new drivers break things, you don't need to wait four months for a fix.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By TSS on 5/14/2009 7:48:30 PM , Rating: 2
tell that to my friend who's PC has been crashing for months now with his ati card. he's tried all sorts of drivers, with some working a while then crashing his rig even harder. he has a x1950 pro i belive. while my card (x1900) still runs fine on a less then trustworthy XP install. only time i managed to BSOD this rig is when i start up a game, then hook up my TV to my computer (not a real big suprise there. first hooking it up then starting up games works fine).

all in all though, the new PC i recently ordered has a GTX 275 in it. why? because they didn't offer ati cards for custom builds where i bought the PC and i can't really care to browse more shops. performance wise, it hardly matters, driver problems are a luck of the draw as well (and als ways have been) and same goes for hardware.

the same hardware can have so many different errors and yet run fine at the same time, on both sides. i guess thats the price we pay for having millions upon millions of transistors smaller then any living thing we know. then connecting that to millions of other transistors more and expect it all to work flawlessly. cmon now.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By jonmcc33 on 5/14/2009 8:30:45 PM , Rating: 4
I will tell that to your friend. There's nothing wrong with ATi's drivers or that video card. The crashing must be something else. Is he running a motherboard with an nVIDIA chipset by chance?


By BikeDude on 5/16/2009 6:18:42 AM , Rating: 1
What I am curious about is this:

How easy is it to report an issue?

I am a fresh ATI 4890 owner. Partly because of the good reviews and bang/buck ratio, but mostly because I felt ignored those times I have had reproducible issues with nVidia's drivers.

E.g. nVidia's driver stopped working properly in 79.11. In version 79.11 it was capable of running with 4GB memory installed (and adressable) in 32-bit Windows 2003 Server (which unlike 32-bit XP supports more memory). With more recent ForceWare versions, that support was silently dropped. I tried emailing them, but was told to bother the guys that had made the card. They of course ignored me.

Later I had several configurations that would crash when playing back DVDs under Vista. Again... Nowhere to report this issue. Fortunately a later driver release addressed this issue, and thanks to laptopvideo2go.com, I was able to correct the problem even on my laptop (as well as on a colleague's laptop).

Since they left me nowhere to report the issues (I even tried bitching on their forums -- which I concluded they don't bother reading), I chose to try ATI. I have yet to experience any issues, but I hope my future problems will be taken care of rather than left hanging.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By Zingam on 5/14/2009 1:39:42 PM , Rating: 2
I have no issues with ATI drivers from the last 2 years and more.


By kellehair on 5/14/2009 2:19:30 PM , Rating: 3
Same here. I think ATI is still suffering from the bad rep their drivers had back in the day.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By DEVGRU on 5/14/09, Rating: -1
RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By TheFace on 5/14/2009 2:29:26 PM , Rating: 2
Then why did the ATi guy go with NVidia twice now if you can't go wrong?

Makes no sense..


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By DEVGRU on 5/14/2009 6:12:39 PM , Rating: 2
Ummmm... because the last two times I decided I wanted to upgrade my videocard, Nvidia happend to have the better price/performance at the time? Its not rocket science.


By erple2 on 5/15/2009 1:20:32 PM , Rating: 2
Of all the cards available now, the ATI 4770 is probably the leader in the Price/Performance ratio.

Now, for a given price point, there may be some cards that are better than others. For the 230+ dollar range, the 4890 and the GTX275 are on par with each other. One card may be 5% faster than the other at some benchmarks, but slower at others. By "slower" (or faster) I mean "not noticeably so". I don't think you can really go wrong with either.

I just happen to want AMD/ATI to win this round, as they're kind of the underdog. And I like the color Red more than Green. Though if some company used a blue logo, I'd probably buy those products instead.

:)


By nycromes on 5/14/2009 12:12:44 PM , Rating: 2
I have both Nvidia and ATI card and I haven't found their respective control panels to be good in either case, which is better is more of a personal preference.

That being said, the Nvidia drives seem to be a whole lot less stable for me than the ATI ones. I keep hearing that "ATI writes bad drivers" with only descriptions of the CCC being sluggish and unintuitive, but when I hear bad things about Nvidia's drivers I hear that systems/games are crashing. That seems to be my experience as well. That all being said, I am suprised to hear so many people say Nvidia drivers are better when I generally hear about many more crashes with them. Everyone's experiences are different I guess.


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By jonmcc33 on 5/14/2009 1:28:50 PM , Rating: 2
Not sure what you mean here, Jason. I've been using only ATi since the Radeon 9700 Pro came out in 2002. No problems with their drivers at all. In fact, considering nVIDIA's recent issues with drivers causing system crashes and their poor GPU manufacturing I'd say ATi is the far better choice of the two. References below of course.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/27/nvidia-drivers-...

http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/02/nvidia-says-sig...


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By kmmatney on 5/14/2009 5:26:26 PM , Rating: 2
I agree - ATI's drivers are very good at this point. CCC might be a little slow (never really found that to be a problem) but you can also use ATI Tray Tools, to completely replace CCC which a much richer feature set. In fact, I prefer ATIs driver over NVidia's drivers, once you take ATI Tray Tools into account.


By jonmcc33 on 5/14/2009 8:32:24 PM , Rating: 2
I have only went into CCC one time, when I made my 3D settings and then left them alone. Really, how often is someone going into their video card control panel?


RE: Glad to see good news for AMD/ATI
By Lakku on 5/14/2009 11:28:40 PM , Rating: 2
I'm in no way trying to troll or throw FUD here, but if GT300 turns out to be true, it could end up being close to the Core 2 vs AMD Athlon i n the CPU realm, though not necessarily in terms of games mind you. I am glad ATi is competitive again in the GPU space, but they are not innovating, while nVidia is trying to at least push into other markets or areas for the GPUs to thrive in. Of course, this is speculation, but if it turns out to be true, both the GT300 and Larrabee will be wiping the floor with ATi in the GPGPU space, and very possibly in the game space as well. The future of the GPU is not in gaming alone, and ATi needs to get up to speed on this, as it looks like Intel and nVidia are moving in completely new directions with graphic cards.


By thartist on 5/15/2009 2:01:53 AM , Rating: 2
is it me, or ATI (i want to refer to the videocards department) is succeeding much more at improving their technology than earning money with it?

honestly, i'd like some points of view.


By thartist on 5/15/2009 2:03:03 AM , Rating: 2
is it me, or ATI (i want to refer to the videocards department) is succeeding much more at improving their technology than earning money with it?

honestly, i'd like some points of view.


By Donkey2008 on 5/15/2009 3:37:49 AM , Rating: 2
Nvidia writes better drivers? What are you smoking?

While games were playing flawlessly for most users of 3800 and 4800 series ATI cards on Vista, hundreds of thousands of Nvidia users were crying foul and blindly blaming Vista for their woes (in fact, IMO it was Nvidia users that ruined Vista's name). Time and time again Nvidia users would drop out of games then come back in crying about a BSOD or game crash. When it was suggested that they try ATI, the same, generic, unprovable argument would rear its ugly head; "ATI drivers suck".

It seems that reality deviates from what Nvidia users are posting on various tech forums and the statement that "ATI drivers suck" is nothing more than an age old "go to" slam of ATI. The majority of younger gamers don't even remember the truely pitiful ATI rage drivers, which is where this arguement started back when Nvidia was marketing its TNT and original GeForce cards. It was true 10 years ago, but not anymore.


Man
By FITCamaro on 5/14/09, Rating: 0
RE: Man
By Lightnix on 5/14/2009 11:48:20 AM , Rating: 2
But all those clock cycles would be wasted running an operating system on a SIMD architecture system when most of what an operating system does is not data parallel. Sure it might be doable but it'd be pretty slow and unpleasant to use.


RE: Man
By Ananke on 5/14/2009 1:27:56 PM , Rating: 2
I plaid Crysis with Radeon 4870 1G and re-plaid with GTX285, on 1900*1200 resolution. The GTX was 2 frames faster, but the Radeon IQ was better. I especially like the circular air waves that bullets make when pass you closely :)

The video decode, however, on Radeon had worse image quality - DivX, x.264, etc.....I don't know why. I used FFdShow, Matroska, etc...


RE: Man
By jonmcc33 on 5/14/2009 1:42:36 PM , Rating: 2
Since the Radeon HD 4870 1GB is the same price as the GTX 260 don't you think that is a better comparison? Sort of odd to compare it to a more expensive product.

MPEG-4 media has always looked great on Radeon brand products. Using a Radeon HD 4830 myself and 1080p H.264 looks flawless on my LCD. Maybe you should try a different media player instead?


RE: Man
By Lakku on 5/14/2009 11:31:47 PM , Rating: 2
It depends a lot on the media player, but that defeats the purpose of comparing the graphic cards video playback capability. As of recent, nVidia has had a slight edge there, mainly due to major media players for DVD and Blu-Ray playback writing heavily for nVidia Purevideo, i.e. Cyberlink et al


RE: Man
By jonmcc33 on 5/15/2009 8:50:32 AM , Rating: 2
You're talking about using the GPU for the decode though when you mention PureVideo.

http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo.html

Not all of us do that. My CPU (Core 2 Duo) does the decode and I use Media Player Classic. No problem with video quality at all.

Regardless, ATi's 4800 series features full 7.1 audio over HDMI. None of nVIDIA's cards feature this AFAIK. They can only provide over SPDIF to a sound card.

If anything, ATi's Radeon HD 4800 series is meant far more for HD video and HT than any nVIDIA product.


RE: Man
By Lakku on 5/15/2009 4:58:51 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, I know I am talking about GPU decode, but seeing as how you mentioned your ATi card looking/working great for MPEG-4 playback and H.264, it makes sense I would mention Purevideo. If your CPU is doing the decoding, then it's really a software decoder and the algorithms/techniques that the software tells the CPU to compute is what makes the quality, not the video card. Your second point is valid, and a good one. However, that is only for audio sent to it by a media player or video playback software. As in, it will only be useful when watching movies/media through playback software, not in the general sound department where you will still need a general sound card. Perhaps it does general playback as I can't seem to answer that readily, but if it doesn't, then software can decode uncompressed audio and sent it out 7.1 over your sound cards analog connections. If hooked to a receiver, the same sound as you'll get with the ATi solution. Either way, can easily get the same effect with either card, and if you are using the GPU to decode, the nVidia card edges the Radeons out.


Naming
By Spivonious on 5/14/2009 10:45:14 AM , Rating: 2
Shouldn't these new cards be named something like 4895 to differentiate them from the other 4890s in the market?




RE: Naming
By MrX8503 on 5/14/2009 11:13:28 AM , Rating: 2
No.

Its the same architecture, just overclocked. This has been done many times with past cards. They just add another word to the end of the video card such as "superclocked" "xxxtreme" or something like that.


RE: Naming
By Targon on 5/14/2009 1:13:20 PM , Rating: 2
The chips themselves are the same, so does not call for giving the chip a new name just because these are the best of those produced. Now, if AMD were to slap a 512 bit memory controller on there instead of the 256 bit, then that might justify a new part number.


RE: Naming
By TheFace on 5/14/2009 2:33:36 PM , Rating: 3
They're not going to slap a 512-bit bus on that. There was an article about why they decided not to go that route if anybody cares to look that up. I believe it was because it made the die too big (therefore too hot, and lower # of dies per platter), and they could get the same performance increase by going to GDDR5.

IMO, they made the right choice.


No ATI drivers for laptops
By Azsen on 5/15/2009 8:10:11 AM , Rating: 2
What's really annoying is that ATI don't release drivers for laptops. That's done by the laptop manufacturers. And if you've got a Toshiba laptop then you practically get the initial release and no improvements after that. I used to rely on the Omega drivers for my mobility X1600 but he hasn't released any updates for over a year now. Maybe he's given up. Anyway now I'm stuck with a manufacturer driver that doesn't even have OpenGL support.

Would never get another laptop with an ATI chip in it again after this fiasco.




RE: No ATI drivers for laptops
By jonmcc33 on 5/15/2009 9:03:17 AM , Rating: 2
Um, that's because the manufacturer supports it. Do you contact ATi for replacing your desktop video card or the manufacturer that you got it from (PowerColor, Sapphire, etc)? Some forward thinking would help you realize why you go through the laptop manufacturer for drivers and support as opposed to directly from ATi.

Since we're talking about mobile GPUs though, I'll again point out that at least ATi doesn't make a known faulty product and still release it to people. Reference below of course.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/02/nvidia-says-sig...


RE: No ATI drivers for laptops
By Lakku on 5/16/2009 4:47:13 AM , Rating: 2
And how often do manufacturers release updated drivers for their laptops? Not very often at all. While it could have been said better, it is nice to see nVidia trying to remedy that, at least for the gamers who need updated drivers for newer games. Secondly, by pointing that out in your last paragraph, you also negate your second point. nVidia, TSMC and laptop makers are all to blame, as it appeared adequate testing of the die packaging wasn't done. That's all the information I could find, but if it was the chip itself, which is also used, albeit perhaps slightly tweaked on the mobile version, in desktop card, then wouldn't desktop cards be failing at higher than normal rates too? Lastly, if it's the manufacturer that supports it, then it's their problem if it fails, not nVidia's, as adequate testing by people like Dell, Apple, and HP would have shown faulty GPU parts or shown inadequate cooling designs.


RE: No ATI drivers for laptops
By Jansen (blog) on 5/16/2009 7:34:46 AM , Rating: 2
I've spoken with ATI's driver guys about this before, and it is mostly the OEMs who are opposed to this, because they are afraid of losing control over the process and having to pay extra costs for tech support due to frequent driver upgrading.


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