backtop

Hardware AMD Talks Details on K10
Marcus Pollice (Blog) - April 14, 2007 11:46 AM
Print E-mail del.icio.us 67 comment(s) - last by Amiga500.. on Apr 25 at 9:31 AM
Giuseppe Amato gives another overview on the high points of AMD's next-generation CPU architecture

This article was first published in German on K-Hardware.de.

Yesterday, AMD held a press presentation in Munich, Germany to update journalists about its upcoming K10 processor. AMD's Giuseppe Amato, Technical Director Sales and Marketing EMEA, had a few minutes to talk about the architecture at length. This architecture, previously dubbed K8L by Henri Richard -- now publically called K10 -- is scheduled to be AMD's first monolithic quad-core design.

The integrated memory controller (IMC) will get a few new features in the K10 core. When utilizing multiple memory modules, along with proper BIOS implementation and mainboard routing, the IMC can access memory in 64-bit channels (72-bit if you use ECC). This way it is possible to read and write data simultaneously, or improve efficiency for irregular access patterns which increasingly occur in a quad-core environment. This feature is available on AM2+ and F+ boards; on "old“ socket AM2 and F boards the usual 128-bit dual-channel mode is available.

Due to split power planes, the IMC can be clocked down independently of the CPU cores, along with reduced voltage. This also enables CPU overclocking without touching the memory frequency, something that may appeal to enthusiasts. These features are again dependent on Socket AM2+ and F+ platforms.

Amato explained how the quad-core design benefits from the internal crossbar switch the backbone of communication inside the K10 CPU. With Intel's current quad-core design there are cases where data needs to travel over the FSB -- in AMDs case all inter-CPU communication takes place on-die.

The crossbar switch of the K10 core is already prepared for up to 8 cores, Amato boasted. Amato wouldn't give even a vague timeframe for market availability of such a CPU, though he indicated the company is prepared for whatever the market demands. Amato made clear that octo-core is far away in the future – Shanghai will not get 8 cores.

K10 will introduce a shared L3 cache while the individual cores have dedicated L1 and L2 caches. As long as requested data lies in L1, it can be directly loaded. This also works if the data lies in the L1 cache of another core, in which case the communication works via the crossbar switch. In case requested data resides in the L2 cache, it will be loaded to L1 and then invalidated in L2 as AMD has an exclusive cache design. The L3 Cache, however, is not exclusive, but allows for a shared bit to be set. If a core loads data marked as shared, it will reside in the L3 cache and can be fetched by other cores as well.

Amato also mentioned an array of power saving measures which, in sum, allow AMD to deliver a quad-core CPU in the same thermal envelope as today’s dual-core CPUs.

K10 adds the capability of independently clocking all the CPU cores. In current K8 processors (and Intel's Core 2 generation), all cores are clocked at the same level all the time -- the P-state can only be changed synchronously. In case of a compute-intensive single-threaded process, all cores must run on the highest level P-state. On K10-based CPUs, the idle cores could be switched to the lowest P-state, while others are in different states, depending on load.

This feature could possibly be abused by overclockers to overclock a single core above the specified levels. Amato clarified that AMD doesn't endorse overclocking, but acknowledges there are people interested in that. In a warranty case, AMD could detect PLL programmings out of spec which would deny the warranty. The new cores, however, have new thermal sensors, to improve overheating protection.

Amato closed the session by mentioning Shanghai as a successor to Barcelona in the server space for 2008. Shanghai will be an improved quad-core architecture, which is supposed to be socket-compatible with current Socket F platforms. Roadmaps available to DailyTech revealed Shanghai is a 45nm quad-core CPU featuring 6MB of L3 Cache.


Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled
A little pleased
By Cobra Commander on 4/16/2007 8:13:24 AM , Rating: 3
AMD's marketing department has not overwhelmed me with confidence in upcoming architectural design but this is more-satisfying than most tidbits I've been reading.

For example, I've always wondered why the MCH has not yet been divided (a la GPU MCHs are) and here the K10 features a crossbar MCH.

I also am digging the independant core power savings functionality.

My main concern is the lack of information on the more fundamental aspects of a CPU: AMD does not seem overly-concerned with expressing how it's going to raise its power:performance to a more-competitive level with Intel.




RE: A little pleased
By Griswold on 4/16/2007 8:19:29 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
My main concern is the lack of information on the more fundamental aspects of a CPU: AMD does not seem overly-concerned with expressing how it's going to raise its power:performance to a more-competitive level with Intel.


What do you expect? They can provide as many details and internal performance numbers as they like, there will always be doubt until the benchmarks are verified - in fact, they have been giving out details and numbers over the last months, and its been received exactly as I said above, for the most part.


RE: A little pleased
By Marcus Pollice (blog) on 4/16/2007 8:46:20 AM , Rating: 2
The only performance numbers that were given at the event were the same 40% advantage over Clovertown in FP-heavy code (SPECfp).


RE: A little pleased
By jhtrico1850 on 4/16/2007 3:40:20 PM , Rating: 2
And that's on the older SPECfp_rate2000 too.


RE: A little pleased
By Dactyl on 4/16/2007 4:49:38 PM , Rating: 2
The 40% SPECfp advantage vs. Clovertown doesn't tell us much.

That benchmark scales poorly for Intel when you go from Core 2 Duo to Core 2 Quad .

Is that because SPECfp is FSB-limited on a Clovertown?

But how many of the applications you and me care about (games, etc.) are FSB-limited?

Why is AMD only showing a single, cherry-picked benchmark?

Like I've said before, I want to be wrong about this. I want Barcelona to crush Penryn. But the indications so far are not promising.


RE: A little pleased
By Lakku on 4/16/2007 6:59:16 PM , Rating: 2
Well, it has to deal with the Core 2/Kentsfield CPUs first. I say this because Intel has been stating that they plan on having Penryn up into the mid 3GHz range, or at the least, clocked well above what Kentsfield is now. I am guessing Barcelona will probably be faster per clock, but Intel may just ramp up speeds to counter that advantage. With that said, I am sure Barcelona will contiunue to keep AMD competative or in the lead in the server realm, but a 'native' quad-core may not really matter when it comes to what most of care about here, and that is games/home computing (ripping, movie making, etc.).


RE: A little pleased
By Dactyl on 4/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: A little pleased
By IamKindaHungry on 4/16/2007 8:48:05 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
What would you rather have: an efficient crossbar linking your native quad core CPU, or an additional 5 FPS in S.T.A.L.K.E.R.?


Actually, I choose option #3 which is a another patch for all the bugs in S.T.A.L.K.E.R.


RE: A little pleased
By Sh0ckwave on 4/16/2007 8:58:28 AM , Rating: 3
Releasing specific details on the new cores wouldn't help their sales or stop people from buying Intel anyway. It would really only give Intel a better idea of what they're up against.


RE: A little pleased
By paydirt on 4/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: A little pleased
By othercents on 4/16/2007 10:52:24 AM , Rating: 2
IT Managers don't follow market trends and won't wait for a processor in hopes that it will be better than the one they get now. Most IT Managers (myself included) strictly buy Intel with disregard to performance numbers. I do this because it is easier to manage. When you buy 25 computers a month it is more important to get reliable computers that can be installed quickly. I might wait up to 2 weeks if I think the price will drop, but thats all.

It is possible that I might look at AMD after the new processors come out, but that is dependent on how quickly DELL starts rolling out computers with the new hardware and what the price is going to be since Intel is dropping theirs. Plus you also have to think twice about switching to AMD in July since Intel is making die changes in December. If Intel becomes better in December then I will have 125 computers that are different than everyone else.

I am also concerned about the AMD availability when the K10 comes out. We might not see computers from our vendor until late Q3 or even Q4.

Other


RE: A little pleased
By GlassHouse69 on 4/16/2007 12:46:21 PM , Rating: 4

everyone likes to seem like a type A aggressive meat market guido who responds to these things.

You buy 25 a month. I do not think you are a high volume purchaser. Also, it seems you really dont need whatever is cutting edge, just what gets the job done. Also, you are not looking forward to new technologies, just whatever dell is offering. Also, you arent buying them, just ordering them for a company. Your company probably has no clue what is better and has no real need for the best versus decent. I would guess that like your company, most companies do not have scientific calculation needs, huge server workload needs, etc etc.

the k10 is driven by gamers and people who run demanding servers. When either of these two REALLY SMALL groups of people say a chip is crap, the stock price plummets and the middle of the road users reject the chip.


RE: A little pleased
By PrezWeezy on 4/16/2007 4:01:37 PM , Rating: 1
I would disagree with you there. People don't listen to the gamers. They might pay some attention to what is being said about servers but the market doesn't rely on gamers to tell them what chip is better. They rely on IT managers. Whatever the IT guy recomends at work, people will buy for home assuming it is within their price point. I can't tell you how many people ask me what to buy.

Actually 25 a month is a substantial number of PC's. And it doesn't matter where the PC's are being acquired, what matters is that they are being installed on a regular basis. And I would agree with OtherCents, switching platforms causes problems. It is much easier if everyone is on the same platform.


RE: A little pleased
By GlassHouse69 on 4/17/2007 2:59:15 AM , Rating: 1
IT managers who do not have computers as a hobby do not rely on their own input in purchasing equipment. They will go to their staff who have an opinion either way. Those people have been building AMD systems for several years now at home. They like AMD and know it will be an impressive decision if they flip their blades/pc's/workstations to an AMD. Well, this was so until the c2d era that began last summer.

Do not underestimate the tech geek in a cubicle when it comes time for opinions. Apple would have been chucked out long ago if it wasnt for the creative/tech geek combo guy in his 30's and 40's.


RE: A little pleased
By PrezWeezy on 4/19/2007 5:57:49 PM , Rating: 2
I think we have a slightly different idea on what an IT Manager is. I'm refering to those who own a business doing IT work. I guess Consultant is more commonly used, but I've heard IT Manager, IS Manager, and the like. So they are the ones who's opinion you would ask.

I still wouldn't build an AMD system at home. I can afford not to, especialy now that the prices are extremely competitive; and they still left a bad taste in my mouth. It is just a personal opinion but I stand by Intel because I know it will work and continue to work. And I am one of those geeks...although I'm not in a cubicle, nor am I in that age demographic.


RE: A little pleased
By bob661 on 4/21/2007 6:55:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
IT Manager
IT Manager isn't a consultant it's the head IT guy in a corporation. And how the hell did AMD leave bad taste in your mouth? I work for an organization with close to 10,000 users and our entire engineering department runs AMD (about 500 or so). We have AMD powered servers running 24/7 without fault. We also have many Intel desktops and servers running 24/7. We bought AMD because they were faster, cheaper, and cooler running than Intel. Makes good business sense. If it works, it works.

Now there's a price parity and the performance difference is nearly identical so we can CHOOSE based on features.

If you're making business decisions based on fanboy ideals, your IT department is not really looking out for the best interests of your company.


RE: A little pleased
By PrezWeezy on 4/23/2007 1:04:24 PM , Rating: 2
You are correct in that I used the wrong term. I appologize for that, but I corrected myself. And AMD left a bad taste in my mouth when I installed several of them and after a few months the procs started to overheat and freeze or shutdown the computer. I want reliability in the business world. My company has a few of the new generation AMD machines out there. And I would agree that our database server running dual Opterons is an Intel killer. The things is amazing. It runs much faster than any Xeon server we could put together at the time. That doesn't change the fact that unless it is a specialized application, I prefer to go with the more stable Xeon.


RE: A little pleased
By mindless1 on 4/19/2007 5:03:43 AM , Rating: 2
and I can't tell you how many DIDN'T ask you what to buy.

Only stupid people rely on IT managers, the rest make their own informed decisions. That is not to slight the experience of IT managers, only that a certain segment of buyers needs help today when the internet is such a wealth of information.

People do actually listen to gamING, it is in fact what drives a lot of the market, not some arbitrary score running Office 200(n), in addition to benchmarks of other applications they won't ever use.

Yes running a common set of parts helps, but platform? No, that's stupidity. There is just as much difference in maintenance in whether all boxes use the same NIC as whether they all use the same brand of CPU.