backtop


Print E-mail del.icio.us 136 comment(s) - last by Ictor.. on Jan 10 at 2:08 AM

Give those in power an inch, and they'll take a mile

Barely a week in, 2009 is shaping up to be an interesting – if somewhat depressing – year for opponents of internet censorship and overpowered copyright enforcement. These last few weeks we’ve seen a number of troubling initiatives from India, Australia, the U.K., and New Zealand, among others, which seek to curtail the delightfully double-edged freedom of information that makes our Internet so great.

While diverse in purpose, each of these initiatives bear a common thread: increased government control in things that it lacks the business, the discipline, and the authority to regulate. Whether it’s heightening the reign of censorship in Australia, disconnecting the internet of anyone even remotely suspected of file sharing in New Zealand, or the increase in police cybersnooping powers in India and the U.K., it appears that many of this world’s governments have had enough of the open internet and now intend to take over and regulate.

The reasons why these developments are a genuinely Bad Thing™ should be both multitude and obvious. The internet gives us, as a people, an almost unthinkably powerful weapon – a weapon of minds, of expression, and of intellectual freedom – that we are free to wield against ourselves, each other, and those who govern over us. In no other time have we had such a power, and yet under the guise of fear – excuses range everywhere from “protecting public morality” to “saving the children” – we allow lawmakers to siphon it away from us.

Clearly, our governments are envious.

The range between these initiatives, in terms of simple power, is wide: while the “Constable HaX0r” police-hacker scare in the U.K. seems largely the result of media hysteria – British police have had the ability to remotely investigate suspects’ computers for quite some time, as Ars Technica’s Julian Sanchez points out – a two-year-old Indian bill, which was finally approved last month, gives Indian authorities a sudden and substantial increase in their ability regulate the private lives of Indian citizens.

“Any email you send, any message you text [is] now open to the prying eyes of the government,” writes Indian blogger Binu Karunakaran, as is “the contents of your computer you surfed in the privacy of your home.”

Binu writes of the Information Technology (Amendment) Bill of 2006, which passed Indian parliament late last month. It grants authorities practically unrestricted authority to monitor all electronic communication, the ability to block any website at will, and the authority to break into someone’s home and inspect their computer – in addition to imposing “Victorian” moral sensibilities on an already conservative culture. Banned activities include e-mailing anything (even jokes) that might be considered offensive or false, surfing celebrity “Bollywood” news, or watching porn.

Meanwhile, bloggers’ christening of the “Great Firewall of Australia” seems to have gained additional relevance, after the Australian government announced intentions to introduce worldwide, ISP-level internet filtering upon its inhabitants. Labor party minister Stephen Conroy writes – in an open-comment blog post, paradoxically – that the move is necessary to maximize the “participation of Australian businesses and individuals in the digital economy,” so that they conduct themselves online as they do offline. Open censorship isn’t an attack on free speech, he writes, because the government doesn’t acknowledge it as such; censors are ordered to avoid blocking any forms of “political speech” while little is said about any of the other kinds.

More troubling, however, is how quickly we’re sleepwalking into the arms of a Big Brother-esque surveillance state. Indian citizens may have had little debate over their Big Brother bill, but voters in the U.K., Australia, the United States, and elsewhere have – and yet we continually ignore the warning signs: Warrantless wiretapping in the U.S. continues to gather indifference from most of the voting public, and most of the lukewarm attempts to slow the rampant spread of traffic, speed, and public surveillance cameras in the U.S. and U.K. have thus far failed. Most people I’ve talked to seem to shrug their shoulders and say that they have nothing to hide – and then go on with their business. Nobody seems to care.

(There’s an excellent counterpoint to the “nothing to hide” argument, by the way, and if that’s your mantra then I demand that you read this.)

It is for these reasons that I wish to tentatively declare 2009 as the Year of the Thought Criminal, because these people will be the only ones worth placing any hope on. They are the people sneaking past the censors, foiling government inspectors, and reporting all things hidden. They are the hackers, reporters, intellectuals, and gatekeepers who safeguard our minds so that we may use them to wander in whatever direction we see fit. They are anyone who actually gives a damn.

There's a story floating around that says a frog will allow itself to be boiled alive if it is put in a pot of cold water slowly heated. If it's dropped in a boiling pot, it will jump out. A clichéd slippery slope argument, for sure, but there exists no better imagery to illustrate my point.

My question to you is this: are we the unsuspecting frog? Could you comfortably stand naked before the eyes of your government?

That future might be nearer than we think.



Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

Well Said
By mal1 on 1/7/2009 10:42:20 AM , Rating: 5
I have to say, this is probably the best article I've ever read on DT. We are quickly being ushered into a Neo-Stazi world where free speech (much less a free internet) will be a thing of the past. How many warning signs do we need before we see the tyranny that is rising before us?




RE: Well Said
By Radnor on 1/7/2009 11:06:02 AM , Rating: 2
If you notice in the countries where to police is the harshest, the criminality is the higher also.
Look at Sao Paulo for one extreme.

It is a chicken and egg situation. I think the tightening of restrictions will lead to more acute cyberspace crime.
I think we have blind leaders. Lets us hope we have "poets" as good as we had in other times of need.


RE: Well Said
By tdktank59 on 1/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Well Said
By CSMR on 1/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Well Said
By BladeVenom on 1/7/2009 5:40:01 PM , Rating: 4
Too much policing is a crime against humanity, and leads to abuse of power.


RE: Well Said
By citizenvern on 1/7/2009 6:17:34 PM , Rating: 5
The futile wish to create a perfect society and eliminate all crime through extra-personal policing will never significantly reduce crime. Why? Because you've only added to the imbalance of supply and demand. Often, new laws are created to try to enforce laws that already exist by prohibiting questionably related activity.

Case in point: Prohibition. Suddenly putting alcohol, marijuana, cocaine and whatever else into ones body was everybody's business? Crime was instantaneously increased by orders of magnitude BY THE "POLICE". Sure, there are deviations from the normal, innately good-natured person, but policing is generally the attempt to enforce a morality in someone that society failed to foster.

My 14YO daughter just got internet. I can focus my energies on keeping her sheltered, or i can spend my time trying to make sure she's mature and enlightened enough to make smart choices. It's akin to what Buckminster Fuller said (roughly), don't attempt to tear down the dominant paradigm, create a better one that makes it obsolete.


RE: Well Said
By eldakka on 1/7/2009 8:42:24 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Crime was instantaneously increased by orders of magnitude BY THE "POLICE".


I think you have got that wrong, it should be:

Crime was instantaneously increased by orders of magnitude BY THE "LEGISLATURE".

The police enforce the laws passed by the legislature, they don't create the law.


RE: Well Said
By CSMR on 1/9/2009 10:57:10 AM , Rating: 1
Immoderate black and white thinking. Extra policing reduces crime both through incentive effects (deterrence) and constraint (jail, etc.). It does not increase crime, ceteris paribus.
It does not follow that it eliminates crime. You should have learned whenever you were first taught about numbers that you can reduce a number without bringing it to zero.

Parenting helps but it does not follow that it brings crime down to zero. You have made the same basic quantitative mistake twice in one comment.

This is for a fixed definition of crime. Of course if you extend what is a crime (changing laws) you may increase total crime, but policing laws reduces crime by whatever definition it operates at the moment.


RE: Well Said
By HighWing on 1/7/2009 6:39:54 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
But higher policing causes less crime

I think you missed the point he was getting at. If we start making things illegal that were once legal and common practice. Then we will see higher crimes rates because there will be a sudden influx of people "breaking" the law. And thus people who were once law abiding citizens become criminals for doing nothing more then the same things they had always been doing.

That is how higher policing can cause more crime!!


RE: Well Said
By Parhel on 1/7/2009 3:42:09 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Look at Sao Paulo for one extreme.


Sao Paulo??? Last year, I saw a guy riding a horse down Paulista Avenue. I asked my wife, "You can ride a horse down one of the busiest streets in Sao Paulo?" She said "You can do anything in Sao Paulo." Just don't kill anyone or flush toilet paper down the toilet, and you're OK.


RE: Well Said
By mmntech on 1/7/2009 11:08:40 AM , Rating: 5
A great man once said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

The problem is not that the government is doing it but rather so many of us ordingary citizens willingly accept it, and even advocate it. I firmly believe that free speech is the only inalienable right and no government is legitimate unless this right is honoured without obstruction.


RE: Well Said
By Target Practice on 1/7/2009 11:31:56 AM , Rating: 2
We are allowing our governments to protect us from ourselves. Conveniently enough, everything put in place to do just that has some sort of similarity to Nazi/Fascist Germany. For example: the smoking ban was upheld within Nazi Germany, and look at what individual states within the U.S. are doing, as well as countries within the EU. Granted, it's "better for our health", but that's just another media craze. Cancer is still going to happen regardless of how little you inhale cigarette smoke. If it happens, it happens. There's not much more you can do about it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way "pro-cancer" or "pro-cigarettes", because my mother died of Cancer when I was 12, and I don't smoke cigarettes and think they are nasty...but that's not my point here.

I know this is a tad bit off topic, but it's true...you can look it up for yourselves.

I mean, IMHO, the government should have as little to do with our own daily life as possible.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 11:39:15 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
We are allowing our governments to protect us from ourselves.


The example you have given is not an example of what you stated. This is the government protecting people from other people. The smoking ban only stops smoking in public buildings and things of that nature. It is basically a common courtesy law which shouldn't have been needed in the first place, but people suck.

Whether it causes cancer or not, it is uncomfortable to people around you in closed spaces and accumulates horribly. The smell will then be in your clothes, it is hard to breathe, makes you cough, etc. If they were truly trying to protect us from ourselves, they would have banned smoking entirely. Now drug prohibition would be a better example of what you were trying to say.


RE: Well Said
By Target Practice on 1/7/2009 11:49:21 AM , Rating: 4
I see what you're saying...thank you for pointing that out.

Then the drug prohibition, as well as MADD, is what I shall stick to...I have quite a bit to say about that as well...

As for the drug prohibition, if you had asked the Supreme Court in 1910 to illegalize Marijuana, they would have laughed at you, citing that it is a Constitutional right to imbibe whatever you choose. Such a shame that it wasn't the same case 20 years later...

And as for MADD, the drinking age is completely ridiculous. The founders of MADD left the group as soon as they started trying to raise the drinking age. For more information, I provide a link to a friend who is a much, much better writer than I, and chose to blog a whole argument about it.

http://www.theventingpost.com/libertarian-tom/118-...

Have fun guys.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 12:00:26 PM , Rating: 2
Couldn't agree more my friend. Usually these ages are silly and most of the laws pertaining to things of that nature are ridiculous at best. No reason in the world it shouldn't be legal to imbibe anything you wish. The ages are arbitrary and silly.

But at the very least, once you are considered an adult you should be able to do anything to yourself you wish. If an adult would like to smoke crack, so be it. If an adult would like to drink, so be it. If an adult would like to kill himself, so bet it. I'm sure this will be followed with the usual people saying that drugs are bad or whatever garbage, but I don't care, it is not our right to control what others do to themselves. People should respect what other people wish to do to themselves as freedom and until it encroaches on other's freedoms, no recourse should be taken. An example would be just cause it is legal to smoke crack, doesn't mean it is legal to drive under the influence.

While I hold no political party, I guess I would equate closest to the Libertarians.


RE: Well Said
By omegastudio on 1/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 12:49:50 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Oh cool! So by those standards I should be allowed to by or sell heroine to or from my buddies? Sweet! Then you probably wouldn't mind being shot at while coming home to your next door neighbor ripping you off so they can get another "bag" of what ever it is they are smoking. The ripping you off of course would be the result of one not being able to hang on to a job because they are so addicted they can't stay at work long enough to not get fired.


By those standards, it would be like any other product. If you remember correctly, people used to shoot and kill each other over alcohol. Oddly enough, it all stopped when prohibition stopped, I wonder why...? But your right, alcohol never ruins anyone's life or causes problems with others.

quote:
Obviously not all drugs are the same and should be dealt with accordingly but when a persons desire to do whatever they want to puts my life in potential hazard I have a big problem wit that.


Why are they not the same? Explain why a harder drug somehow has a larger affect on you? The laws would still stand that driving under the influence or robbery or murder are still illegal, it's not like those would suddenly disappear with legalization of drugs.

If you have a big problem with someone doing whatever they want being a potential danger to you, then I assume you have problems with: smoking, drinking, boating, hunting, flight, skiing, running, driving, owning weapons, playing sports with you, any kind of fighting (legal or otherwise) and the list goes on. Would I be correct in this, or are you merely placing a silly social dogma on drugs that you have been indoctrinated with?


RE: Well Said
By geddarkstorm on 1/7/2009 1:18:26 PM , Rating: 2
Except "harder drugs" impair judgment by altering the mental state (ala all sorts of uncontrolled violence and dangerous activites that the individual cannot stop oneself from doing), cause chemical dependence on a substance unrelated to nutrition and continued life, and endanger said life.

Alcohol in moderation doesn't do any of this, though high levels will. However, that's what penalties are for if someone is stupid enough to ingest too much alcohol. For "hard drugs" like crack or heroin, a single dose, even small, is enough to cause immense negative effects and chemical dependence. It's that nagging issue of /dependence/ with even one dose (or couple) that makes such drugs so dangerous, and their ability to screw over a person's mind as to why they are so vile. They have no business being legalized in any way, shape, or form, and the government does have the right to defend the people against something like that, which could turn citizens into literal chemical zombies when on said drug, irrational, unable to function in society, dangerous, and potentially damaging to the lives and well being of normal citizens going about their ordinary routines.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 2:14:56 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Except "harder drugs" impair judgment by altering the mental state (ala all sorts of uncontrolled violence and dangerous activites that the individual cannot stop oneself from doing), cause chemical dependence on a substance unrelated to nutrition and continued life, and endanger said life.


So can alcohol.

quote:
They have no business being legalized in any way, shape, or form, and the government does have the right to defend the people against something like that, which could turn citizens into literal chemical zombies when on said drug, irrational, unable to function in society, dangerous, and potentially damaging to the lives and well being of normal citizens going about their ordinary routines.


They are not defending the citizens, nor do they need defense. Making your own decisions for something that affects you is what freedom comes down to. Alcohol damages many lives, I am from a family of alcoholics. Grandfather died young, father was one but quit, cousin is one. Hell, even I was one at one time. Addictions can happen pretty easily.

When I was a youth, I did about any drug I came across; coke, crack, smack, acid, shrooms, speed, you name it, I did it at one time in high school. You know the hardest one to kick for me? Alcohol. I can go on today without touching a drug even if it is in front of me. Alcohol on the other hand is a fight, but I have stayed away from it successfully. I know people who functioned just fine with heroin habits as well as coke habits and I have seen people who drink themselves to death or to complete breakdown. It is a matter of the person, not the substance. If you try to go by the speed of addiction, what arbitrary measurement do you use? It varies by the person. At the end of the day, most every one of these drugs are natural, it would be like banning red meat cause it can cause high blood pressure in some people.

Plenty of people go their whole life without getting addicted to any of these drugs (alcohol is a drug). It is a person's right to chose what they take and if they turn into criminals, then treat them as such if they do so. You cannot sit and tell people they are not allowed to turn into chemical zombies. That is their right if they see fit in the same way they can turn into alcohol ridden zombies or fat slob zombies.

Protecting people from their own decisions is stupid and cannot be done. The laws produce more crime than they stop. They cause drug lords and drug prices to go through the roof. They cause drug violence and billions of wasted dollars trying to fight it. It causes people to steal for their habit rather than just working some bum job to get enough to pay for something that is inherently cheap to make. Coke would have almost no value if it was legal, same with pretty much any other drug.


RE: Well Said
By geddarkstorm on 1/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 5:52:57 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
You are using a very interesting form of argument, saying that something that can cause ill effects to a lesser degree while requiring high amounts, and which is legal, should also mean another substance which causes grave ill effects at very small doses should also be legal. This is an argument of degrees.


Unfortunately when arguing in something that is not concrete, it is impossible to legislate. While I acknowledge that it is easier to die or get messed up quicker with certain drugs than alcohol, that doesn't mean one should be legal while the other isn't, as you have no idea how much each person will use or how it will affect them.

As stated, I have met enough people who use drugs recreationally in my life and I have seen many still be productive members of society. One guy I worked with was around 45 or so. He grew opium and frequented many other drugs. He held a job of at least 40-50 hours a week, was married (no kids) and had his own house.

quote:
Following your same reasoning, why don't we just legalize murder?


You are misconstruing what my point has been. You have to have murder illegal so you can punish for it. The reason you punish for it is because it inherently infringes on another person's right to life. To say I have interesting logic with your statement is quite the conundrum.

As for your statistics, I think we both know statistics can be skewed any way the presenter wishes, especially when dealing with percentages and many assumed links. Your stats don't take into account why they were in jail. If it was for theft, then chances are they stole to get money for the horribly expensive illegal drugs. Also please remember that all drugs were legal at one time in this country and if you look into the reasons for making them illegal, they were usually racist in origin (opium and the Asians for example). The country was not a drugged up cesspool when drugs were legal then, why would that suddenly change? I am pretty sure no matter how legal heroin is, it will never be socially accepted like alcohol is.


RE: Well Said
By geddarkstorm on 1/7/2009 6:25:33 PM , Rating: 2
Interesting counters. However, it's hard to say to take anecdotal evidence as a means to determine validity of laws, especially when in the paragraph just before you state how we can have no idea how each person will use drugs or how it will effect them. That's why statistics exist (which you bring up a good point about). It's still funny to me how you choose to read certain sections of my comments and not others, such as ignoring where I answered the rhetorical question I brought up, and which you quoted by itself without said answer (you would see I misconstrued nothing).

Anyways, you bring up a valid point about the statistics, and there's no way for me to find out what the particular offenses were; if I could then we could tease out this issue easier.

Still, we know what the effects of drugs are, we know how it messes up the mind, we even know the molecular basis for it, and we have plenty of documented cases of people on drugs, who were reasonable individuals without them, being driven to violent, not drug money related, crimes. Why, should these "hard drugs" not be viewed as a bad thing? I have yet to see a compelling argument from you as to why these "hard drugs" should not be considered bad and illegal, especially with what they are proven to do to people. Even if one or two people function ok with habitual use, that is not the norm, and how many more people have you seen drugs screw up the lives of for as long as said drugs were pursued? I've certainly seen my fair share, and have never run into people who can go along fine with such stuff being put into their systems. Here in lies the problem of anecdotal evidence again.

As for your final comment about at some point in time drugs were legal in the country, there's a major flaw, both one of distribution and production. Back when such drugs were just being popularly discovered, and before mediums of information spreading as we have now, even while these things were legal getting them was probably more difficult than even now. It was only once the potential problems behind hard drugs were realized that an outcry was given, problems only seen once availability got to a high enough level for enough people to take such drugs. That is, penetration into the general population never happened, there was never a chance for such drugs to be common, even when they were legal. This is in contrast to alcohol which saturated the population millennium ago - but there are plenty of social ills we deal with because of alcohol, but we can't get rid of it due to its saturation in our society, hence why prohibition failed.

So, it seems rather that the country wasn't a drugged up cesspool because drugs were simply not common (can't be drugged up if you can't get said drug), even if legal. With alcohol, we've learned to stomach it, and it isn't a fraction as dangerous as the other drugs behavior wise at common dosages. Opium, which I'm not sure is a hard drug like marijuana isn't a hard drug as far as I know, was rather more prevalent in society, yet still very limited (especially compared to alcohol). There was a reason it was outlawed, and not because of association with Asians.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 7:54:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Anyways, you bring up a valid point about the statistics, and there's no way for me to find out what the particular offenses were; if I could then we could tease out this issue easier.


Just for reference, I am quoting small portions for brevities sake so not to clutter the comments too much with reposting of your posts. If I miss certain aspects you deem important, I'm sorry and will try to answer all things brought up.

To go more into the statistics, I'm pretty sure we could go through the prison population and make more extreme remarks as to how many people were smoking while committing a crime or drinking. I'm sure you realize how silly that would be. Once again, many of those people were most likely robbing to pay for the drug because it is so expensive due to being illegal. Now, since drugs are illegal, many of the people in jail are in for drug related crimes, so obviously they will likely be on said drugs at the time or at least have done the drug before. It just isn't a proper statistic to bring up as it isn't showing all the aspects of the reality of things.

I never said drugs shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing, I see racism as a bad thing, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to be racist or spout their silly hate speech. As I said before, just cause something is legal doesn't mean it is condoned. If someone would like to screw up their life, it is not our choice to make for them. While I agree it is damaging as is any drug (alcohol as well), it is up to the person to make the decision based on their situation and knowledge. Just like people look down on and scold alcoholics, so would be done for anything else. You have to give them the choice, otherwise you are taking away a right to do what they want to themselves without repercussions.

I disagree as to the amount of drugs that were around back when they first started, opium was VERY prevalent in America at the time due to all the Asian immigrants coming over and that was a major cash crop in their countries at the time. Opium and cocaine were put into things all the time, in fact opium and cocaine were sold at drug stores without issue and placed into medicines all the time, I would recommend you watch some of the documentaries of the time as they are quite interesting.

As for the final point about opium, well I guess this is merely a lack of knowledge about the item on your part and is understandable. Opium is the plant all your major opiates come from.

http://www.erowid.org/

That is a fine place to look into any drug you are curious about, but to summarize, opium contains morphine and codeine and I'm sure you recognize both of these. Opium is also synthesized into heroin. It was made illegal in part due to a hatred of the immigrants from Asia at the time and since they brought it over it was an easy way to demonize them. Even marijuana was used to demonize Mexicans, watch some of the classic anit-drug films from the early years and you will see what I am referencing.

I find it funny that the "uncivilized" people that these drugs originated with had no problems controlling their use, yet it happens in America and panic breaks out. It seems that some people have this natural need to control others and they are usually the ones that yell the loudest. Unfortunately our society runs off who yells the loudest.


RE: Well Said
By geddarkstorm on 1/7/2009 7:05:26 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, and about the statistics again, you still have the issue that 10% of criminals were under the influence of cocaine at the time they committed a crime, verses only 0.8% of the population who actually take cocaine in a month. Even if the crime was for more drug money, the fact remains that if cocaine did not directly increase the likelihood of committing a crime, then this statistic would be much lower.

Consider 780,581 people were in non-federal jail midyear 2007, according to the DOJ. That's ~0.003% of the US adult population. About 16% of those jailed people had committed some form of crime for money for some form of drugs (or ~124,893 people). Considering there's an estimated 702,000 people currently using cocaine today according to the NIDA as of 2006, we can see that if 10% of non-federal prison inmates in the same jails were there because they did a crime while under the influence of cocaine (~78,058 people), then that's about 11% of cocaine users committing a crime (other than using cocaine itself), verses 0.003% of the US adult population. Otherwise, if cocaine had no effect, then only 211 people would be expected to have committed a crime while under its influence. If you add in the drug money percentage (~0.0005 of the US adult population) and times it by 10 since we're already using a drug verses just the general population, then you'd expect only 3,954 people who were under cocaine to commit a crime. Even if we multiply by a factor of 100, that's just 39,540 people, still a far cry from the 78,058 people actually in jail who were under cocaine's influence at the time of their crime.

Admittedly, this is a really poor analysis, and we'd only know for certain if we know the percentages of the different offenses committed by the 10% of cocaine influenced offenders, but it gives you a general idea. Cocaine use is increasing the propensity to commit a crime irrespective of the need for drug money, and apparently more so than alcohol does.

Forgive me, but I like to analyze situations and arguments rather than just use rhetoric.


RE: Well Said
By omegastudio on 1/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Well Said
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/7/2009 2:43:23 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Should there be no gun registration either?

Nope. In fact, we already have that in Vermont to an extent. Gun purchases at stores generally get registered, but individuals can transfer any guns that are legal at the federal level without any kind of documentation. When I moved here, I didn't have to register any of my rifles or handguns.

That might sound a little crazy to some, but our crime rates say otherwise.


RE: Well Said
By omegastudio on 1/7/2009 3:45:34 PM , Rating: 1
It should be noted that I fully agree with the right to own a gun. I just think that the penalties for being caught with unregistered weapons should be stiff.

Yes Vermont is a wonderful place to live. I live nearby in New York but Vermont is hardly a state that resembles the cross section of American demographics.


RE: Well Said
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/7/2009 2:47:01 PM , Rating: 2
I forgot to add that fireams can be carried open or concealed without any sort of permit. The only state firearm law we really have is one that says local governments aren't allowed to firearm laws of their own.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 3:05:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yes your right Gzuz666, we should all live in your world where nothing gets done because we are high in drugs all day long. Heroine and crack should be legal because the "man" shouldn't keep us down. So should there be no speed limit either? Should there be no gun registration either? How about we abolish all laws and get on with the end of all things good while we are at it. Oh wait, thats my social dogma barking at you, sorry dude. Didn't mean to offend you.


I think the word idiot is thrown around a lot these days, but you have clearly personified it. Yes, clearly the only thing stopping every person in the world from doing drugs is them being illegal, that makes perfect sense!

I don't think there should really be a speed limit, but if you are driving unsafe to other drivers (ie doing something like following too closely, unsafe lane changes, endangering pedestrians) then you should be carted off to jail for endangerment. So, for instance, if you are doing 100mph on an empty highway, that is fine.

Now, if you are doing that through a crosswalk, that is endangerment as you cannot properly stop in time for the crosswalk to be properly used and that is infringing on other's rights. You can post recommended speeds for roads and all the usual signs, but clearly a speed limit is not required if done properly. Again, just cause there is a posted speed limit doesn't mean a bunch of morons don't break it anyway.

Gun registration laws are silly. If you commit a gun crime, you get hit with the usual laws that already exist. Regulation merely hurts the law abiding citizen. Hell, I just finished selling my AR-15 about a month ago to some guy, no paperwork was required.


RE: Well Said
By Myg on 1/7/2009 3:43:38 PM , Rating: 1
This is an interesting debate topic...

See how the following can apply to the drugs/guns/drinking issues.

Laws exist because the social supports which usually provided a means of prevention or assistance have been degraded or forgotten.

To put it plainly: Morals. They prevent people from making stupid choices... (like taking risks which may endanger themselves)

Since we are all connected, if you fall; you will bring someone down with you to a certain extent (can also be interpreted as someone having to clean up your mess/look after you).

A society with strong internal Morals that are actively supported by role models/peers can actually do away with a lot of laws because such things are "A given" and maintained by the common order, and not the "higher" dictation.


RE: Well Said
By omegastudio on 1/7/2009 3:48:48 PM , Rating: 2
Cool, now you are resorting to name calling too. So, anyone who agrees that some laws are actually a good thing for society is an idiot? Save us your hot air bro.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 3:54:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Cool, now you are resorting to name calling too. So, anyone who agrees that some laws are actually a good thing for society is an idiot? Save us your hot air bro.


I would have refrained had you not resorted to the crass comments you made, but I find it funny you completely ignored the rest. Had you truly been the better person here, you would have responded with some sort of counter-argument, but clearly that was something you couldn't do, "bro".


RE: Well Said
By omegastudio on 1/7/2009 4:46:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote "I would have refrained had you not resorted to the crass comments you made, but I find it funny you completely ignored the rest. Had you truly been the better person here, you would have responded with some sort of counter-argument, but clearly that was something you couldn't do, "bro"."

How can I argue with someone like yourself? You seem to think that life should be a free for all to do anything they want. You have no problem with someone doing whatever they want to do and then ask how it affects me. Well, my tax dollars are spent cleaning up the mess people like that leave behind. We are hung up here because you refuse to see any viewpoint other than your own. Actually people are free to do whatever drugs they want so long as they get caught. When they do they pay the penalty as well they should. People break laws all the time, and when they get caught they also pay the price. I just don't want to hear anyone complaining that they got thrown in jail for buying crack. Good riddance to them and hopefully when they come out they will be as strong as you were when you said you quit. Why is it so bad to have some regulations in place so that when people step out of line with what most people deem bad for everything you have a problem? Do you have a problem with authority?

Personally I don't care what you do to yourself or how you do it. But when it becomes everyone else's problem I am in favor of having laws that may make someone think twice about being a further problem.

If you do something that is just simply offensive, I'm fine with that with respect to laws. I don't care about offensive things. I can be mad if I want to but thats where it ends. But if my life or my pursuit of happiness is impaired by someone else's lack of proper judgment in attaining their happiness then yes I may be in favor of a law prohibiting it.

Now if you want to nitpick every sentence I write go ahead. It doesn't make me an idiot because I disagree with you.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 5:00:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
How can I argue with someone like yourself?


Easy, you just did! If your argument stands on it's own merit, silly statements like this wouldn't be needed. Also, it didn't make you an idiot for disagreeing, I merely stated that because of the way you presented your "counterargument" or lack there of in that case. But this time you made a better response with well thought out arguments and I treat it as such.

quote:
If you do something that is just simply offensive, I'm fine with that with respect to laws. I don't care about offensive things. I can be mad if I want to but thats where it ends. But if my life or my pursuit of happiness is impaired by someone else's lack of proper judgment in attaining their happiness then yes I may be in favor of a law prohibiting it.


While I agree, you can't make laws that punish someone for something they may do to you. I believe Minority Report was a fine example of trying to get someone for something they might end up doing. For all you know they might be able to shoot up heroin and never affect anyone else. Considering how cheap the drug would be, he could hold a simple job and easily afford it.

My argument for you is, why condone alcohol use then? Why is it not illegal? People go into downward spirals all the time and ruin many a life in the process because of it. My grandfather died at around 30 from binge drinking. He left his family poor and alone, yet I would still support the freedom of him to do so. Do I think it was good? No, but I support it as his free right as a person. These same things smoking.

It is the job of the people around the person with a problem to try to help as best they can to correct this person's behavior if it is out of line. At the time though, no one looked down on my grandpa for drinking so heavily and was excused as "well, he is in the Navy, it's normal". Having something legal does not necessarily mean you condone it and I wish more people would realize that. We can frown upon hate groups, but they still have the legal right to speak.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 5:01:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
These same things smoking.


This should be "These same things could be said about smoking". Wow, that was a big miss on my part.


RE: Well Said
By ShaolinSoccer on 1/8/2009 3:15:36 AM , Rating: 2
You're debating with a guy who's got 666 in his name. He's clearly someone who worships Satan and could care less about families. The guy thinks people should be able to drive as fast as they want and end up killing themselves or someone else on the highway and people should be able to smoke crack and end up ruining their lives, their family's lives and the lives of people they rob or murder just to get that high. My gosh, he trully hates humanity and is hoping it gets worse. He needs to keep it up so he can get all those browny points from Satan while he can!


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/8/2009 9:40:50 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You're debating with a guy who's got 666 in his name. He's clearly someone who worships Satan and could care less about families. The guy thinks people should be able to drive as fast as they want and end up killing themselves or someone else on the highway and people should be able to smoke crack and end up ruining their lives, their family's lives and the lives of people they rob or murder just to get that high. My gosh, he trully hates humanity and is hoping it gets worse. He needs to keep it up so he can get all those browny points from Satan while he can!


This guy has Shaolin in his name, so clearly he is a monk hell bent on turning everyone into monks. He wants everyone to be bald and wear funny robes! He wants to push his reincarnation on us! If we don't conform he will use his kung fu on us! NOOO!


RE: Well Said
By wempa on 1/7/2009 12:35:24 PM , Rating: 2
Seat belt laws are another example. I agree that the cigarette laws were needed since those of us who don't smoke shouldn't be subjected to it.


RE: Well Said
By Tsuwamono on 1/7/2009 12:43:09 PM , Rating: 2
While i see how seat belt laws can be restrictive towards your freedom(no pun intended) but it is a safety concern and i do agree with it. I always wear my seatbelt, i dont see why thats such a big deal.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 12:55:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
While i see how seat belt laws can be restrictive towards your freedom(no pun intended) but it is a safety concern and i do agree with it. I always wear my seatbelt, i dont see why thats such a big deal.


OK, by this standard we should illegalize sports as they are a safety concern. Even with pads, the damage can be horrible. Same goes for driving in general, they should start making driving illegal. How about we illegalize walking, or at least make you wear pads while you walk and run as it can be dangerous.

As you can see I was being facetious, but the point stands. Where do you draw the line? Clearly if you cannot draw the line, you should just allow the freedom to decide for yourself and if something you do infringes on someone else's freedom, then it becomes a crime. The slippery slope that has been brought up works for many things and always needs to be taken into consideration.


RE: Well Said
By Solandri on 1/7/2009 1:26:14 PM , Rating: 3
I don't have a problem with seatbelt laws. I couldn't care less about the safety aspect - if you want to put your life at greater risk, that's your business. But our laws require emergency medical personnel to treat you regardless of ability to pay. So basically I end up paying for all the uninsured or underinsured idiots who choose not to wear seatbelts or helmets and get themselves hurt.

For this reason, I support seatbelt laws. If you want to get rid of them, make it so if you're in an accident and weren't wearing a seatbelt and you don't have a valid insurance card in your pocket, medical personnel don't have to treat you.


RE: Well Said
By ZachDontScare on 1/7/2009 2:06:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But our laws require emergency medical personnel to treat you regardless of ability to pay. So basically I end up paying for all the uninsured or underinsured idiots who choose not to wear seatbelts or helmets and get themselves hurt.


So change those laws instead, and stop paying for everyone.


RE: Well Said
By Solandri on 1/7/2009 2:45:38 PM , Rating: 2
You're the one who doesn't like the seatbelt laws, you change them. I'm content with either having the seatbelt law, or the medical treatment law being rescinded. If you want my support for rescinding the seatbelt law, you need to get the medical treatment law rescinded.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 2:20:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't have a problem with seatbelt laws.


You didn't address my examples. If seat belt laws are fine with you because of the reasons you state, why are you not for all the other things I mentioned? Why not require safety equipment when you change your own oil? Maybe you need OSHA approval before you can hang Christmas lights on your roof. The question is where do you draw the line?


RE: Well Said
By Solandri on 1/7/2009 2:59:59 PM , Rating: 2
Because those activities typically can't result in injuries as severe as you get from car or motorcycle accidents. I hate to put people's lives into a cost-benefit analysis, but when dealing with a large populations you kinda have to. An average person contributes about $1-$2 million of productivity to society in their lifetime. If the cost of uninsured treatment exceeds that, society is better off cutting its losses.

Car accidents can easily cause injuries exceeding $1-$2 million to treat. Changing your oil or hanging Christmas lights is highly unlikely to do so. That's where I draw the line.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 3:08:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Car accidents can easily cause injuries exceeding $1-$2 million to treat. Changing your oil or hanging Christmas lights is highly unlikely to do so. That's where I draw the line.


Then we should illegalize cars. Or how about planes, those can be horribly bad in a crash. Trains? Those are messy. Once again, I still don't see your line.


RE: Well Said
By arazok on 1/7/2009 12:13:37 PM , Rating: 2
There was no smoking ban in Nazi Germany.

They did what we do now, which is tax it, discourage it, and restrict it's use in some public places. They never banned it.


RE: Well Said
By CSMR on 1/7/2009 11:47:06 AM , Rating: 1
A powerful man but not a very great thought.
Basically he is saying if someone has given up one of these rights in favour of safety HE DESERVES TO LOSE BOTH. I.e. this person should not have either safety (presumably his life has no value at that point), or rights, he should be given into slavery.
That just shows the contradictions in Franklin's mind. On the one hand, the staunch defender of enlightenment rights and liberties. On the other, if you tick him off and don't accept his particular theories on liberty YOU DESERVE SLAVERY AND DEATH. And all in the same sentence.
Incredible how this attitude has become so popular with in the libertarian and liberal communities without their realizing its inherent insecurity and hatred.


RE: Well Said
By RandomUsername3463 on 1/7/2009 12:08:56 PM , Rating: 2
I think you're taking a little witty one-liner that expresses some truth to the extreme. Perhaps you should read some of Franklin's writings before passing judgement.

You remind me of someone I met from a Freshman English class who was absolutely horrified after reading "A Modest Proposal" because she took it LITERALLY.


RE: Well Said
By CSMR on 1/7/2009 12:23:13 PM , Rating: 2
What is the truth? Why has this version become so popular? Is there really no will to crack down on opposing views in those who admire this comment? Is it really a joke: did Franklin expect to be understood it as absurd, that no-one deserves to lose liberty or safety, he has no-ill will towards those who don't believe in the same liberties?
Because I can tell you it's no joke among his modern supporters.


RE: Well Said
By RandomUsername3463 on 1/7/2009 4:08:25 PM , Rating: 2
You know modern Ben Franklin supporters? Perhaps someone like Rush Limbaugh is chanting this phrase, but I doubt that you'll find many people rallying around Ben Franklin teachings these days :)

I'm not even sure what you mean by, "no will to crack down on opposing views" ... do you think people should be punished for holding some opinion or another?


RE: Well Said
By CSMR on 1/9/2009 10:59:06 AM , Rating: 2
Presumably the people that make this quotation one of their political mantras.


RE: Well Said
By Solandri on 1/7/2009 1:33:46 PM , Rating: 2
"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire


RE: Well Said
By RandomUsername3463 on 1/7/2009 4:04:52 PM , Rating: 2
Posting this statement is very nearly a paradox.


RE: Well Said
By radializer on 1/7/2009 7:59:44 PM , Rating: 2
Not really - if anything, it is self-consistent.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 12:11:56 PM , Rating: 3
Clearly you don't understand what he was saying, like many people. Franklin was saying never give up your essential freedoms in the name of temporary security (which is rarely even the case, it is usually just perceived safety). If you are willing to give up your essential freedoms as a human to feel like you are safe, you are making a decision that is based in fear, not thought.

Natural law is pretty much that you are always in danger and that is how it is. You must embrace this fact and move past it. Your freedoms and everyone's freedom down your lineage is reliant on this. The fact that we have those freedoms makes everyone's life better. While I have little regard for other people, I would fight and die today if it meant those freedoms would be preserved. Freedom is something to live for and something to die for my friend.

I am truly saddened in someone who would downplay Mr. Franklin in any way, he was a great man with great ideals. I truly hope you rethink your thoughts on that quote and realize what he truly meant.


RE: Well Said
By CSMR on 1/7/2009 12:29:48 PM , Rating: 1
-No actually it is based in thoughts, but just other thoughts than Franklin's. There are many theories of ethics that are do not have liberty as the ultimate aim, and they are definitely thoughts.
-Danger is quantitative. It is important if they become smaller or larger.
-It's funny that you say you don't care about people but care about liberty. I care about people and only derivatively about freedoms - among other things. I think that is a thoughtful attitude.
-It's obviously the bite "deserve neither..." that is giving the sentence it's power. If he had said "don't give up freedom for safety", I don't think it would have become the mantra that it is.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 12:37:18 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
-No actually it is based in thoughts, but just other thoughts than Franklin's. There are many theories of ethics that are do not have liberty as the ultimate aim, and they are definitely thoughts.


So the Patriot Act was a law made in thought? I was under the impression that it was done in fear and most people who voted for it said so and regretted it later. That and it assisted in nothing.

Danger is there no matter what you do. You can't measure how much danger you increased or decreased, so it is not quantitative. Too many factors involved to even begin to try to measure it. Remember the Bear Patrol in the Simpsons? Fantastic example of why it is faulty to think that just cause you have done something, you have somehow eliminated or even reduced a perceived threat.

quote:
-It's funny that you say you don't care about people but care about liberty. I care about people and only derivatively about freedoms - among other things. I think that is a thoughtful attitude.


You care about people so that you would help take away their essential freedoms? Fantastically played my friend. If it does one day come down to fascism or rebellion, I hope you have a change of heart. Unfortunately I foresee a second American Revolution in the future but if they must be fought for, so be it.


RE: Well Said
By CSMR on 1/7/2009 12:42:18 PM , Rating: 2
-I did not write the Patriot Act. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
-A list of essential freedoms is not part of my thinking on ethics. Show me Franklin's list and I'll be happy to judge each one on it's merits.


RE: Well Said
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/7/2009 1:48:51 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
-I did not write the Patriot Act. I think you're confusing me with someone else.

You made a blanket statement under which the Patriot Act is an obvious example. If you don't see how it fits with your own post, then you clearly do not understand the implications of your own opinion.

quote:
-A list of essential freedoms is not part of my thinking on ethics. Show me Franklin's list and I'll be happy to judge each one on it's merits.

What do you suppose is the purpose of life then? To simply exist, and to keep existing? Perhaps in a strictly biological sense, yes that is the purpose. Where's the value in that though? I believe, as did Franklin and as do many others, that the value of life is directly related to freedom. What do you value?

quote:
-Danger is quantitative. It is important if they become smaller or larger.

Danger is qualitative, not quantitative -- it can only really be measured in retrospect, and in the here-and-now it is entirely a figment of perception.

quote:
-It's obviously the bite "deserve neither..." that is giving the sentence it's power. If he had said "don't give up freedom for safety", I don't think it would have become the mantra that it is.

Simple reading comprehension helps. He's saying that a decision made in fear doesn't really grant safety, thus in making such a decision you end up with neither freedom nor safety. To allow yourself to make and accept such decisions means that you value neither and therefore deserve neither. Simply saying "don't give up freedom for safety" isn't enough because it doesn't illustrate anything about the nature of the problem.


RE: Well Said
By CSMR on 1/9/2009 11:14:27 AM , Rating: 2
-The fact that I do not hold to a political philosophy based on freedom does not mean that I support the Patriot act. I might not want the US government to have increased power, wary of corruption or wanting some other institution to be more powerful. I might think that some other security measures were more effective in reducing the terror threat. I don't know why a complex law had to be brought in when we were discussing a theoretical question.

-I value knowledge and truth, and education, faith, art, ideas. I value goodness of will, the desire to teach, help, inspire others. I value an organic society, history, social structures that preserve all these things. None of these are freedom and while freedom might be good most of the time for creating some of them it is not the case all of the time and on occasion constraints on freedom can be needed to each one of those things.

-Danger can be quantified as probabilities of given calamities.

-He is mixing an empirical assertion (which may be true in some cases but obviously not in all) with a value judgement. In his value judgement there is a class of people who don't agree with him (ok because of values and also maybe empirical beliefs) who do not deserve safety or liberty. In any case we are agreed on that, that he said that those who for one reason or another disagreed with him on this point did not deserve either, and this attitude of his was what I wanted to highlight.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/9/2009 11:33:26 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The fact that I do not hold to a political philosophy based on freedom does not mean that I support the Patriot act.


You don't seem to be getting the point my friend. Whether you support it or not is not the issue, please work on your reading comprehension. It is a matter of example of a law passed in fear for their safety which netted no additional safety and took away freedom.

quote:
-I value knowledge and truth, and education, faith, art, ideas. I value goodness of will, the desire to teach, help, inspire others. I value an organic society, history, social structures that preserve all these things. None of these are freedom and while freedom might be good most of the time for creating some of them it is not the case all of the time and on occasion constraints on freedom can be needed to each one of those things.


Wrong, the freedom to speak the truth, educate people properly, the freedom to hold any faith you wish, the freedom to help others as you see fit, the freedom to inspire through actions and words that are all based in basic freedom.

quote:
-Danger can be quantified as probabilities of given calamities.


Only based on previous instances and only vaguely. You cannot define even with percentages and risk factors what the Patriot Act did to help stop terrorism, but you can surely point out it's stripping of freedoms.

quote:
-He is mixing an empirical assertion (which may be true in some cases but obviously not in all) with a value judgement. In his value judgement there is a class of people who don't agree with him (ok because of values and also maybe empirical beliefs) who do not deserve safety or liberty. In any case we are agreed on that, that he said that those who for one reason or another disagreed with him on this point did not deserve either, and this attitude of his was what I wanted to highlight.


The only reason you have the ability to disagree with him is because of freedom. If you were not afforded the freedom he explains, you would be at the will of someone else's whims. I have honestly never seen anyone argue against something while giving so many examples of why he is for something in my life.


RE: Well Said
By partisan007 on 1/9/2009 3:15:25 PM , Rating: 2
-I didn't pass this law; I didn't fear for my safety; I didn't evaluate its effects on safety. So the example has little to do with me. I might support laws which do improve safety at the loss of some freedoms from whatever Franklin's list is (or yours).
-You are telling me if I am wrong that I really value freedom, not those things directly. That's insane.
I did not say I value "the freedom to speak the truth etc." but "truth etc.". On the basis of my value for the truth I would (if I had power) ascribe limited freedoms to speak the truth - and falsehood, or nonsense. The aim isn't freedom, it's truth. And the same for the others.
-Based on previous frequencies, information in many forms, and yes a subjective factor (at least from a Bayesian point of view). A person rationally uses such assessments (even when vague) when assessing the advantages cross a road at small risk of death, whether to invest in a stock, whether to have health insurance. Assessing the advantages of laws with unknown effects should also involve probabilities. Probabilities are key to any decision involving uncertainty.
-I did not say I am against my freedom to disagree with other people. That would indeed be ridiculous. I am for this particular freedom, but against other freedoms, and in all cases my final criterion for goodness is not freedom.


RE: Well Said
By partisan007 on 1/9/2009 3:18:53 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, this is CSMR; somehow had a different account on a different browser.


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/9/2009 3:26:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
-I didn't pass this law; I didn't fear for my safety; I didn't evaluate its effects on safety. So the example has little to do with me. I might support laws which do improve safety at the loss of some freedoms from whatever Franklin's list is (or yours).


I really don't know how else to push this through your head. No one has said you did, nor did anyone insinuate you did. The example has everything to do with what you said, but I think it is being diluted now because of your rambling.

quote:
-You are telling me if I am wrong that I really value freedom, not those things directly. That's insane.


I'm not saying this to be mean, but you have the reading comprehension of a young child. Please re-read these things carefully and notice the way words are different in places and have different meanings. The point was you say one thing yet your actions speak for another.

Your next talking point is just getting old, please just re-read and if you don't comprehend either, ask or stop arguing.

As for your final point, you are just rambling again. You are either not reading what anyone else has said, or the most hard headed and illiterate person I have met in a long time.


RE: Well Said
By clovell on 1/7/2009 2:08:30 PM , Rating: 2
I think the key word in that quote is 'temporary'.


RE: Well Said
By clovell on 1/7/2009 2:07:37 PM , Rating: 2
What of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness?


RE: Well Said
By JonnyDough on 1/7/2009 5:47:28 PM , Rating: 2
These should be unhindered by government control. Don't you agree?

It's always a fine line to walk between what's acceptable and what's unlawful. Citizens need freedom, and the few that choose to dirty society need to be stopped from doing so. But, the government has a way of creeping up on your civil liberties and right to choose and right to raise your family as you want. The Amish and other religious groups are all too well familiar with this fine line. The Amish will actually be seen at town meetings and so on in their communities as much as anyone else, because laws can have a very dramatic affect on their way of life.

We as citizens need to be united and stay vigilant. We need to defend our rights against possible tyranny, but more so - WE NEED CONTROL OF OUR GOVERNMENT THROUGH MAJORITY RULE. The issue really is that we can't sit down every night and vote on legislation from the comfort of our homes. We need an "Am I Hot or Not" government website for legislation - all the way down to local. We need to do away with rich old guys telling us what we can and cannot do.


RE: Well Said
By chmilz on 1/7/2009 11:10:42 AM , Rating: 2
Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country did to you...

Classic KMFDM lyric if I recall correctly.


RE: Well Said
By austinag on 1/7/2009 11:18:13 AM , Rating: 2
KMFDM - Roughly translated: No mercy for the Majority
Also very relevant to this article.


RE: Well Said
By bhieb on 1/7/2009 11:56:53 AM , Rating: 2
While I too enjoyed the article I would have to classify it as one of the best BLOGS I've read on DT. I fail to see how a albeit well phrased set of author opinions qualifies this to be in the news section.


RE: Well Said
By TomCorelis (blog) on 1/7/2009 12:58:17 PM , Rating: 2
I invoked a relatively unused policy here that allows editorials to be published with the full front page treatment. Nowhere do I try to pass this off as a news story :-)


RE: Well Said
By Shodan on 1/7/2009 12:04:07 PM , Rating: 2
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?


RE: Well Said
By mal1 on 1/7/2009 3:46:10 PM , Rating: 2
Good men who value their natural rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else, that's who ;)


RE: Well Said
By Myg on 1/7/2009 4:12:12 PM , Rating: 1
"the pursuit of whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else"

Due to human nature; that is a contradictory statement, unless you mean what they "want" is somehow designed by someone who has a bigger picture on the whole of society, who can actually and accurately predict what will hurt/not hurt.

Its a shame such a line of reasoning leads to God, isn't it ?

;-)


RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 4:38:31 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Due to human nature; that is a contradictory statement, unless you mean what they "want" is somehow designed by someone who has a bigger picture on the whole of society, who can actually and accurately predict what will hurt/not hurt.


No it isn't. Better way of putting it would be as long as it doesn't infringe on other's same freedoms, but oh well. It is not a matter of predicting what infringes or hurts other people, as feelings don't count. Being offended or bothered by something and trying to stop someone from saying it is going against our inalienable right to free speech so any attempt to stifle that would be met with a breaking of a basic right.

quote:
Its a shame such a line of reasoning leads to God, isn't it ?


First off, explain? Second, no it doesn't, you just want to propagate such silliness. Don't bring up a "god" unless you come with some proof. This means legitimate proof, not a book someone wrote 100+ years after it supposedly happened.


RE: Well Said
By Myg on 1/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Well Said
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 8:04:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not a subscriber to detail only arguements (as I noted from most of you posts), so will skip this one. My apologies. There is no need to be afraid of God, he loves you too :-)


Then you will hopefully understand why I cannot subscribe to such a belief? I require proof or at the very least some reasonable examples to begin to acknowledge something.

Unfortunately, a god very likely does not exist. Also, if he does, the chances of him being your personal "God" is horribly unlikely considering how many there have been in the past.

To wrap it all up, it is not fear that makes one not believe in something without proof, it is actually fear that causes people to believe without proof. You may believe in whatever you wish, but remember the burden of proof is on the presenter of a belief or idea, not the dissenter.


RE: Well Said
By Wierdo on 1/7/2009 2:55:38 PM , Rating: 2
Indeed, excellent piece. I liked the article linked there as well about the concept of privacy and the "nothing to hide" reasoning behind giving away some of it. I thought this segment did a nice job at explaining some of the issues involved - among many others covered in that linked piece:

"
...
This kind of information processing, which forbids people’s knowledge or involvement, resembles in some ways a kind of due process problem. It is a structural problem involving the way people are treated by government institutions. Moreover, it creates a power imbalance between individuals and the government. To what extent should the Executive Branch and an agency such as the NSA, which is relatively insulated from the political process and public accountability, have a significant power over citizens? This issue is not about whether the information gathered is something people want to hide, but rather about the power and the structure of government.
A related problem involves “secondary use.” Secondary use is the use of data obtained for one purpose for a different unrelated purpose without the person’s consent. The Administration has said little about how long the data will be stored, how it will be used, and what it could be used for in the future. The potential future uses of any piece of personal information are vast, and without limits or accountability on how that information is used, it is hard for people to assess the dangers of the data being in the government’s control.
...
"


RE: Well Said
By Murloc on 1/7/2009 3:22:21 PM , Rating: 2
many governs are going fascist, and soon there will be the WWIII.


RE: Well Said
By JonnyDough on 1/7/2009 5:40:00 PM , Rating: 3
+6 Amen to that.

quote:
The reasons why these developments are a genuinely Bad Thing™ should be both multitude and obvious. The internet gives us, as a people, an almost unthinkably powerful weapon – a weapon of minds, of expression, and of intellectual freedom – that we are free to wield against ourselves, each other, and those who govern over us. In no other time have we had such a power, and yet under the guise of fear – excuses range everywhere from “protecting public morality” to “saving the children” – we allow lawmakers to siphon it away from us.


That is the best blog jargon I've ever laid eyes upon. Warning of government control. The whole notion this nation was founded on was government being to SERVE the people and having LITTLE power. Hence, local militias.

The rich of the United States wanted power to become even more rich, and somehow they did just that. Maybe it's nearing time for another Boston Tea Party/60's demonstrations. It's flipping ridiculous how a president like Bush can do the things he did with a major lacking in a majority of public support.

The reason we went to war in Iraq was so that politicians could become more wealthy. That's almost always the reason we go to war overseas. It's an investment for the very secretive and wealthy in our society.


RE: Well Said
By majBUZZ on 1/8/2009 5:04:07 PM , Rating: 2
I think all you drug war supporters need some information from the other side.

http://thinkoutsidethecage2.blogspot.com/2008/03/a...
http://www.americandrugwar.com/


Please also note...
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 1/7/2009 11:17:55 AM , Rating: 1
Not that I totally disagree with your article, but the argument you use, a slippery slope (boiling frog), is a logical fallacy, not something you get on when the government starts regulating interstate commerce. To say that this legislation is the beginning of a slippery slope is a fallacy, and what you are arguing against is a future state of affairs that you posit in an alarmist fashion, rather than arguing against the merits of the specific legislative efforts you are listing.

It is interesting to point out that it was probably similar slippery slope arguments that allowed the legislatures to pass the bills you are arguing against (fallaciously, I should point out.) For example, you can't let gay people get married beause then people will want to marry animals is a slippery slope fallacy. It is called upon when the arguer has not addressed the merits of the case at hand - gay marriage, in this case. It falsely characterizes gay marriage as bestiality and forces the opponent to argue the fallacy, and not the merits.

So before you go putting your support behind cyber criminals, perhaps you could spend more time arguing the merits of the legislation and positing some more viable solution (like cyber protesting, or getting some sort of international support group together) rather than you think it means in the future at the end of your falacious slippery slope - which hasn't come yet.

BTW - I do NOT support this kind of legislation generally since I believe it is unconstitutional in the US on the grounds that it constitutes unlawful search and seizure. However, there is an exception to that rule, which is, anything in plain view or in the public domain is not subject to a warrant requirement. However, point to point communication, like phone conversations, are protected. So why not argue that for web browsing on the merits.




RE: Please also note...
By CSMR on 1/7/2009 11:37:45 AM , Rating: 2
Most arguments characterized as slippery slope arguments are in fact valid. It's an example of the "fallacy fallacy", the fallacy that an argument that is one of the standard fallacies is invalid.

For example if someone argues "homosexual marriage should be allowed because everyone should be able to marry whoever he wants" and you reply "but that implies incestuous and bestial marriages should be allowed" you are normally accused of making a slippery slope fallacy when in fact your argument is completely valid. On the other hand if you say "homosexual marriage is bad because bestial marriages will follow", that may or may not be a good argument depending on whether you have shown that those things will in fact follow.


RE: Please also note...
By Dreifort on 1/7/2009 11:48:42 AM , Rating: 1
Or you could just say that homosexual marriage is bad because it is naturally impossible for two men to impregnate each other.


RE: Please also note...
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 12:03:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Or you could just say that homosexual marriage is bad because it is naturally impossible for two men to impregnate each other.


That wouldn't make it inherently "bad". Marriage does not require reproduction, nor does reproduction require marriage, so that argument fails miserably.


RE: Please also note...
By Dreifort on 1/7/2009 1:39:47 PM , Rating: 2
Depends on who you ask.

Some see marriage as the first step in instituting or raising a family. There has long been the availability of unions for those who want the same benefits of being married in the eyes of financial benefits. Many states recognize unions in the fact they can receive the same tax benefits that come with being married.

The original definition of marriage was having a husband and wife agree to live their lives together. Only recent wikified addendums to the definition of marriage now include references outside of a husband and wife.

When the dust settles from the arguments about same sex marriage - the ONLY reason gays want to be able to place the "marriage" tag on their relationship is to rub it in the faces of ppl who have conservative values. There is no other reason with the availability of equal benefits under the title of union.


RE: Please also note...
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 2:41:05 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Depends on who you ask.


No, it doesn't. As stated, reproduction does not require marriage and has been happening long before marriage existed. Marriage also does not require reproduction as many couples chose not to procreate and this is their choice.

quote:
When the dust settles from the arguments about same sex marriage - the ONLY reason gays want to be able to place the "marriage" tag on their relationship is to rub it in the faces of ppl who have conservative values. There is no other reason with the availability of equal benefits under the title of union.


That is an unfair judgment of that group of people. Most I have met want to merely be allowed to be free to do the same things as other people and not be segregated out for it. Most of the people who don't want gay people getting married is for the reasons of not wanting things to be equal and not letting them call themselves married. It is a way to try to oppress a group of people. As they took away the right to oppress with beatings and outspoken hate, they have moved on to little things to show their disdain.

If churches don't want to marry same sex couples, that is their free right and I have no issue with them deciding not to do so. Government needs to be without bias though and they should allow union between any consenting parties as marriage. Being treated equal, even in wording, is something everyone wants. The same reason we don't segregate water fountains for black people.


RE: Please also note...
By Dreifort on 1/7/2009 3:15:33 PM , Rating: 2
the definition of marriage has been and is being changed to conform to same-sex marriage...

how is it considered equal when the DEFINITION of marriage never included same sex partners? I am not against gays uniting with each other and living out a long prosperous life. But THEY are attacking the DEFINITION of marriage. No one is attacking the gays.


RE: Please also note...
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 3:19:21 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
how is it considered equal when the DEFINITION of marriage never included same sex partners? I am not against gays uniting with each other and living out a long prosperous life. But THEY are attacking the DEFINITION of marriage. No one is attacking the gays.


Oh, this old game. Remember when slavery was in force in America and they played the game that slaves were not people, there for did not have rights? Definition games are cute, but inherently won't work as humans define them. Marriage predates recorded history, so you have no idea how it was originally defined.


RE: Please also note...
By Myg on 1/7/2009 4:07:24 PM , Rating: 1
Then I suppose "Gay Marriage" is surely like Slavery no?

They are both just twisted versions of the pure concepts which exist within every human being.

Slavery: We work for a living, so we work for others. This has always existed, so people decided to exploit it by not paying people for it and showing the respect (mainly lack) that comes with that. Driven by Greed.

"Gay Marriage": Men and Women have gotten together in order to try and set up a balanced situation which will provide the best possible emotional and physical conditions for the raising of children. Children being the future of society and the family unit being the foundation of the society, governments decided to give them financial help (wether this was right/wrong, is debatable). People of the same sex who have an attraction to other decided they want that money break, the social status of being a "family" and recognition/acceptance for their inclinations, so they lobby for it. Driven by Greed.

You can't have what isn't yours to have, its a harsh and nasty reality; but after all this novelty of "same sex marriage" wears off and society moves on to the next fad, people will look back and wonder what the heck we were thinking.


RE: Please also note...
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 4:27:26 PM , Rating: 1
Once again, marriage is not required for reproduction and reproduction is not required for marriage. Plenty of families are not related in any way, like when a single person adopts a child or when two non married people adopt a child. There is no blood or binding tie that makes them a family, yet it happens.

Now I am not sitting here saying that homosexuality is normal, cause it isn't. But neither is mental retardation, yet we put no restriction on them getting married and having kids if they so desire. The same can be said for midgets, for a physical rather than mental problem example.

The point is we don't just discount a group of people because they are different. Clearly homosexuality, just like retardation, is caused in the brain from a dysfunction. Clearly homosexuality as retardation makes no sense from anyone's perspective, they hinder reproduction and thought respectively. But, this doesn't mean we can sit and restrict them from things that they can technically do. Granted we won't allow a retarded person to fly a plane or run a nuclear facility for obvious reasons, in the same way gay people can't make children with each other for obvious reasons.


RE: Please also note...
By Myg on 1/7/2009 4:42:28 PM , Rating: 2
"Once again, marriage is not required for reproduction and reproduction is not required for marriage"

I don't think anyone has said such an absurd thing (at least I didn't), that's like saying making wine doesn't require the proper situation to be made. Of course its possible, but most of the time it will be a wine of poor quality or possibly turn to vinegar at the worst!

I suppose it may be governments fault for recognising marriage in the first place and padding it with financial gain. Even if that be true, we must understand that they recognised marriage as it was at the time they did so, therefore it is defined only as it was in that moment and the unity contained.

If a government has taken upon itself to be the bearer and supporter of such a thing, then it must take the full responsibility to uphold the honour, unity and integrity of that recognition. That means, not allowing it to change to the destruction of the foundation principles of the thing.

Just like the Constitution...


RE: Please also note...
By Gzus666 on 1/7/2009 4:47:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If a government has taken upon itself to be the bearer and supporter of such a thing, then it must take the full responsibility to uphold the honour, unity and integrity of that recognition. That means, not allowing it to change to the destruction of the foundation principles of the thing.


I would agree if only the original laws didn't state that interracial marriages were not legal, yet this was repealed rightfully.


RE: Please also note...
By Myg on 1/7/2009 4:59:12 PM , Rating: 2
Interesting bit of history I didn't know. Shame about that, Indeed, an ideal is only as uncorrupted as the person who set it down...


RE: Please also note...
By Dreifort on 1/8/2009 12:24:13 PM , Rating: 2
Marriage predates recorded history? it does? The bible has records of it. That is recorded history. Regardless if you believe the Bible to be a book of faith or just a history book - it describes the first use of marriage between a man and WOman (male and female scientifically speaking). How can marriage predate recorded history if there is no recording of it before recorded history? (huh?...my brain hurts).

Gays wanting same-sex marriage would be like ppl wanting to associate Santa Claus with Barrack Obama getting elected president in 2008. "Here children! Santa brings you gifts because you elected Obama!" Santa existed LONG before Obama, yet exploting Santa to something non-related to the original definition of Santa is the same thing as gays wanting same-sex-marriage. The term "same sex marriage" is an oxymoron as marriage implies 2 different sexes.


RE: Please also note...
By Gzus666 on 1/8/2009 12:35:16 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Marriage predates recorded history?


Sorry, forgot the "reliable" part. The bible is not the oldest book describing marriage. Ancient Romans and Greeks had marriage and it was NOTHING like it is now or in the Bible. They also had, *GASP*, gay marriages (the church outlawed it in the mid 4th century). People forget that history predates all the religions that dominate our day and age.


RE: Please also note...
By Dreifort on 1/9/2009 9:50:06 AM , Rating: 2
what history predates the Bible?

where is there RECORDED history older than 2000 BC?
the comic 300 was 1998. not quite as old as the Bible.


RE: Please also note...
By Gzus666 on 1/9/2009 10:41:43 AM , Rating: 2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome
http://www.scborromeo.org/truth/b2.htm

Ancient Rome was 753 BC. Ancient Greeks are around 1100 BC. Only the earliest books are considered to be possibly older. Also, the Bible isn't accurate history. They have yet to find any evidence of anything in the Bible unless it was reported by some other text. Ark, no evidence. Jesus, no evidence. Flood, no evidence. Hell, Sumerians started keeping written history around 3500 BC, before the bible even says there WAS history.

Even the supposed symbol of their faith, the cross, is incorrectly portrayed. It has been shown crosses of the Roman torture were shaped as an upper case T. They separated at the T joint and the vertical plank was left in the ground as it required some time to bury properly for support. So if we go by a text that matches some actual history, we would have to use the new testament, which was dated to around 400AD.

You cannot call the Bible history as it is clearly inaccurate, it talks about unicorns and woman with stork wings, how can you take that seriously? If a history book talked about unicorns being real, I think any sane human would discount the whole text.

So lets use accurate history, shall we?


RE: Please also note...
By Gzus666 on 1/9/2009 4:33:12 PM , Rating: 2
I can't believe I forgot this, but the Ming Dynasty of Ancient China had gay marriage and that was mid 1300BC (predates any book of the bible) at least, could have and most likely was done much earlier considering how long the Chinese have been civilized.


RE: Please also note...
By Symmetriad on 1/8/2009 4:01:23 PM , Rating: 2
Until you or anybody else can provide an explanation of how allowing same-sex marriages will materially damage existing marriages, the "definition" argument doesn't hold up. Definitions are not sacred - any study of linguistics, semiotics and etymology will bear this out. Definitions change as they are needed. This includes law, where the definition of "marriage" in the United States once stipulated that interracial marriages were illegal; this changed, and the institution of marriage was not destroyed. The definition of marriage throughout history - both within and between different cultures, states, religions and philosophies - has always been fluid, and it seems obtuse to protect a definition that doesn't really need to be protected. Definitions serve man, not the other way around.

Also, this is not an "attack" by any means. Homosexuals are being denied rights by not being granted the same rights of marriage, which is unconstitutional. Was it an "attack" on the values of the United States when enslaved blacks were granted equal rights?


RE: Please also note...
By Symmetriad on 1/8/2009 3:52:01 PM , Rating: 2
Except, in most states, civil unions do not include many of the civil rights granted by the term marriage, such as hospital visitation, property rights, and so forth. The reason homosexuals want the term "marriage" used is to ensure absolute parity in the civil rights granted by the term. To not grant equal rights is unconstitutional.

The other solution is to erase the term "marriage" from the law books entirely and replace every instance of it with "civil union," but unfortunately I don't see that happening any time soon.


By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 1/9/2009 3:36:29 PM , Rating: 2
But that is not the reason given for homosexual marriage - that "anyone should be able to marry whomever they want." The reason has to do with rights of entirety and survivorship, and other tax and health care benefits for homosexual partners, not simply because anyone should be allowed to etc. THAT is a libertarian argument for no government intervention in personal affairs. The entireties is a legal fiction, like incorporation, that must be granted by the state, in order for these benefits to inure to the parties to the fiction.

Slippery slope arguments CAN be valid, but are not valid just because they are slippery slope arguments. This one that calls for extreme criminal action in order to counteract some state of affairs that has not yet obtained, strikes me as fallacious. Why not discuss the merits of the case, first?


RE: Please also note...
By TomCorelis (blog) on 1/7/2009 12:55:38 PM , Rating: 2
The boiling frog/slippery slope image is useful in a lot of situations where you're trying to point out that the growth of something that's in its early stages. Its a tired argument -- and I noted it as such -- but that doesn't mean its any less valid.


RE: Please also note...
By Myg on 1/7/2009 4:24:49 PM , Rating: 2
Tom, please don't be so apologetic about it! Its a fact of the human state, continually proven everyday by myself, yourself and everyone around.

"I will do this later..."

"I won't bother with that now..."

"Maybe just one more..."

"Just 5 more minutes..."

Slippery slope is just a reference to a weakness which is continually present in all of us!

It is never "tired", its just people are "tired" of hearing the truth over and over because it gets in the way of what they want. "Wahh, but what about my feelings?" Sort of thing.


Breaking Point
By JediJeb on 1/7/2009 11:02:42 AM , Rating: 2
The unfortunate thing about the American people, is that we remain inactive until pushed too far. If we all took an active role in our government as we should, and that is how it was originally set up to work, then these things would not be problems. As usual though we sit around hoping someone else will take care of the problems. Then once it gets bad enough, the whole lot of us join up and make an attack on the problem all at once.

The American Revolution started this way. Noone really listened to the few outspoken people who were warning of what was to come, then when one incident finally happened to infuriate a large enough number, that fury spills over to the vast majority of the people and something happens. What will be the final straw that sparks the next American Revolution, or if wide spread enough maybe a World Revolution? Could there be some event that would awaken the citizens of the world to revolt against their respective governments all at once?

These are the thoughts that make this type of news very concerning to me, and should be to everyone.




RE: Breaking Point
By rudolphna on 1/7/2009 11:14:01 AM , Rating: 3
yes, the problem is that some people just dont give a damn about anything except their little personal bubble. They present the aforementioned, "i have nothing to hide" and "let someone else deal with it" along with the "what the heck can I do about it" stances. I know far too many people like this. Just think about this, maybe in 10 years this blog would be labelled "as a government conspiracy" and you will go to jail for reading it. Who wants that kind of control over the internet to happen?


RE: Breaking Point
By Motoman on 1/7/2009 11:24:40 AM , Rating: 5
...I think you give people too much credit. From where I'm standing, as a rule people are just freaking ignorant and stupid...and apathetic.

Don't get your panties in a bundle, DTers...people who read sites like this are the 1%ers. I'm talking about the unwashed masses, cataleptically plodding through life without actually *thinking* about much of anything. Morons vastly outnumber critical thinkers to the point of absurdity.

When our nanny state formally becomes a prison state, we will have ourselves to blame. Governments should fear the people...not the other way around.


RE: Breaking Point
By tdktank59 on 1/7/2009 11:37:02 AM , Rating: 2
well said,

However I think its less than 1% (or so it seems...)

I happen to just sit around but I notice things. I choose to sit because I'm not a people person and for me to get that following to overthrow something would take me a long time... to the point its not worth it any more...

I'm not saying I can't lead... Just saying I can't recruit... Once I find a recruiter I'll start the battle...

Until then i sit and keep my mouth shut until the day comes along where I can make my stand.

The reason I choose this is because I'm the critical thinker type. I view all sides and assess the problem to the root or at least close to the root and try and solve it. While the mass people (the people we need to follow our stands) only see the overlaying problem. *in this case censorship* When the real problem lies at the government level and the fact that we all fear the government instead of the government fearing us. And they don't want to belive that its truly the bottom cause that is causing it hoping by fixing the current issue will solve all their problems when all it does is make the government stronger. Because they look for another route to do the same thing but with more policies so we cannot over throw them.

Hope that actually makes some sense lol I think it shows the point of that 1%.


RE: Breaking Point
By Target Practice on 1/7/2009 11:41:57 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think it's just the people who run the government...it's who stand behind them and egg them on. All the people who think that government regulation is what needs to happen in a country based off of just the opposite. I mean, who here thinks a gas tax is a good thing right now? I'm enjoying my < $1.50/gallon and I know for a fact that any sort of gas tax would just ruin the economy even more.

For example, look at the years going up to the Great Depression: two politicians named Smoot and Hawley passed a tariff act in lieu of over 1,000 economists disagreeing with them. What happened next, you ask? Well, even though the stock market crash was before the act went through, the litigation leading up to the act passing were partially to blame. Also, the unemployment rate skyrocketed afterwards.

Obviously there were other factors at play, but this is just one example of politicians doing something in a field they don't truly understand...and people following them down that sinkhole.


RE: Breaking Point
By CSMR on 1/7/2009 12:35:03 PM , Rating: 1
There are well over 1000 economists who want a gas tax (often along with tax cuts in other areas), it's the right economic policy.
There is also general acceptance that some things, particularly financial markets, need more regulation.


RE: Breaking Point
By trisct on 1/7/2009 2:43:47 PM , Rating: 2
Governments only fear the thinking minority, and in a democracy like this where media saturation can bury the 1% under some fear-induced knee-jerk response from the masses, it is easily silenced.

The counter to that is grass-roots political organization and PACs. Surveillance and privacy erosion combined with security issues can be twisted to make simple politics look like a threat. Even now profiling and harassment are used to stifle the rights of some groups, and this will only get worse. Someday they'll come for you, too.


RE: Breaking Point
By MightyAA on 1/8/2009 8:00:55 PM , Rating: 2
Meh... The 1% you speak of is also the paranoid or extremist. In my mind, it really only comes down to one concept. Do you trust your government to act in your best interest?

If you don't, then you'll probably believe these things lead to a police state. Just because it could happen, doesn't mean it will happen.


RE: Breaking Point
By clovell on 1/7/2009 2:12:43 PM , Rating: 2
Okay, but seriously, if the populace reacted to every headline in the news, we'd all die of sheer exhaustion. The apathy is a result of all the shock and awe in current media - the disinformation overload of the internet. Many people choose only to react if they absolutely are forced to because there are only 24 hours in a day.

Until people can develop better BS-meters, I think we're stuck here.


RE: Breaking Point
By codeThug on 1/7/2009 11:37:23 AM , Rating: 2
As long as the majority of American people have food, beer and readily available entertainment nothing will happen.

When people get kicked out of their homes and the food stops being delivered, only then will the sch1dt hit the fan.

This country revels in it's ignorance.


RE: Breaking Point
By Dreifort on 1/7/2009 11:44:48 AM , Rating: 2
No, they just easily forget the process that got them to where they are today.

I believe many Americans have no problem working hard to put food on the table. But when the media tries to make you believe that it's a God given (or Mother Nature given) right to have the finer things in life without working hard - then ppl forget about the process of work hard 1st, paid 2nd, reap benefits 3rd.

Thanks to half our politicians and reinforced by the media...ppl now assume it’s reap 1st, paid 2nd, and then work hard last.


Confused article conflates too many things
By CSMR on 1/7/2009 11:31:27 AM , Rating: 3
Firstly this article is not about thought-crime but speech-crime. The distinction between thought and speech is an important one and well known to anyone who thinks before he speaks.

I am very against thought-crime laws. Examples include sentencing based on thoughts (murder vs manslaughter) rather than situations and actions, constitutional restrictions based on thoughts (supreme court inquiry into intentions behind laws, not just what the laws are, establishment clause one example).

Free speech is a different question and there are several aspects touched on. First what speech is legal. That isn't really in question at the moment but free expression (call it speech if you are disturbed) is limited in the case of child pornography and incitement to violence. That is perfectly reasonable IMO.

Then there is privacy. That is a different question from free speech. If the government puts a large number of e-mails though a computer system to flag up potential terrorist threats that has restricted privacy but not free speech, because even if your e-mail is flagged you are not a criminal unless you are convicted for being part of a terrorist network (note: not for writing an e-mail).

Then there is free access to information. That's an area where governments are being foolish, perhaps for populist reasons. King Canute was right when he sat in the tide to show the limits of his power. Western governments just don't have the power to stand against information flow on the internet. (This doesn't apply to China, they actually do have the power to do this.)




RE: Confused article conflates too many things
By Steele on 1/7/2009 12:00:38 PM , Rating: 2
The right to privacy is fundamentally important. Emails are like snail mail. The expectation of privacy in my email system is equivalent to (in fact greater, since it's a secure email) letters sent via the USPS. When that expectation is violated, my rights have been infringed.

The line between thought-crime and speech-crime is VERY fine, and attempting to make a distinction between the two as you have will always result Big Brother-esque invasions of the citizens' privacy.

BTW, King Canute sat in the tide in an attempt to stop the tide, trying to demonstrate his UN-limited power. He wasn't being humble, he was being vainglorious.


RE: Confused article conflates too many things
By CSMR on 1/7/2009 12:17:35 PM , Rating: 2
I am not saying that thought-laws, speech-laws, and privacy-laws are unrelated but you shouldn't conflate them. E.g. scanning e-mails for terrorist threats isn't designed to target thoughts but to help detect terrorist threats. If you think it is making some thoughts into crimes you should say what those thoughts are.

The version of the Canute story I gave is the standard one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canute_the_Great#Rule...
http://www.bosham.org/bosham-magazine/history/King...


By Director on 1/7/2009 5:08:21 PM , Rating: 1
But then what definition of 'terrorist' are you going to apply? Is it people who are planning to purposely inflict harm on others to further their ideology (like America invading the middle east for e.g.) or it is ,merely anyone who dares to criticise the government (whoever that might be)?

Seems to me that as a LOT of things seem to be happening globally these days and not merely in one country or another that the idea of a 'shadow government' is gaining huge credibility.

(p.s. ALL Americans need to watch the "money masters" doco)


agreed
By HollyDOL on 1/7/2009 11:18:45 AM , Rating: 2
It seems dark age of internet is slowly coming.

Kind of reminds me Deus ex Machina.




RE: agreed
By Myg on 1/7/2009 4:29:17 PM , Rating: 2
Yea, that happens when you create something without thinking about it properly. You end up not knowing how to handle it when it grows too big for your ability.

A bit like bad parenting I suppose...


The demanded reading
By Josh7289 on 1/7/2009 4:58:58 PM , Rating: 2
I only read the introduction and conclusion, which didn't really explain the main arguments in the paper, so can anyone summarize them? Just get to the main point, you know?




RE: The demanded reading
By Director on 1/7/2009 6:10:03 PM , Rating: 2
Totalitarian governments restricting the free flow of information (as all despots do) because when enough sheeple figure out that the wool's been pulled over their eyes for years it upsets whoever's in power at the time.


Business opportunity
By chmilz on 1/7/2009 11:08:21 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Could you comfortably stand naked before the eyes of your government?


Sure, but that'll cost them. I don't strip for free.




Alarmist
By omegastudio on 1/7/2009 12:10:53 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think that it would be and alarmist viewpoint to be concerned about the government stretching their limits with respect to controlling internet content. Is this in some way a guarantee of a big brother situation really happening? Maybe, maybe not. But why is it alarmist to be concerned about it, or to speak out about it? Maybe if enough people voice their opinions regarding concerns about a government's desire for increasing control of internet content it can be lessened in scope.

Most people that use the internet are not criminals and should not be treated as though they have already done a crime. Where does it end? Total transparency of our daily lives? I thought it was the government that was supposed to have transparency. I guess not.




Creeping in of fascisme
By Ictor on 1/7/2009 12:25:35 PM , Rating: 2

Says everything:

"Fascism need not arrive in jackboots and tanks; it can creep upon a society slowly, crushing its liberties one by one in exchange for a promised security. If such seems impossible in a democracy, study the "war on drugs" and "war on terrorism" and how willingly a society has surrendered its liberties in exchange for the "security" of a drug- and terrorist-free society."




Oxymoron?
By gtrinku on 1/7/2009 4:31:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Open censorship isn’t an attack on free speech, he writes, because the government doesn’t acknowledge it as such

What a relief, I got worried for a moment there.




Simply Genius!
By Verran on 1/7/2009 8:05:06 PM , Rating: 2
It's rare these days for me to log in and post a comment, but I had to. As sweeping a statement as this may be, I really think this could be the best article I've read yet at DT. A hearty congratulation is due to the author! Very well done!




By Cerin218 on 1/8/2009 2:29:32 PM , Rating: 2
I can't believe some of the crap people write here. I have a father who is ultra right wing conservative. He even goes so far as to believe that gays, blacks, and Muslims should be put to death thus solving all of our problems. One of the things that has always put me in awe of the Constitution is the fact that the people that originally wrote it had the brilliance to understand that it is not just our right, but our responsibility to question our government, and they also had the wisdom to realize that times and people change. They wrote a document that provided the framework by which to run a society that is almost perfect in it recognition that it is imperfect and changeable. People write laws to enforce a morality that they believe is just. We have laws because as humans we are bankrupt of common sense. Do I need a law to tell me that it is wrong to kill? Or steal? Or speed through a school zone? I don't because I have enough common sense to realize the effects of my actions. Problem is that there are a lot of people that don't have that common sense so you have to tell them what they can and can't do then create some kind of consequence as words alone will not stop them from doing as they wish. Even the consequences don't stop them today or our jails wouldn't be over crowded and there wouldn't be repeat offenders. But there are. Humans are imperfect. There is a saying in pagan religions "And it harms no other, do as you will". Most people aren't disciplined enough to live in that concept. What saddens me is that there are people like my father that have ideas of things like gays are somehow less human then the rest of us so they should be treated with different rights. Why should two people who love each other be treated differently because they are the same sex? Or a different color? Marriage is not the concept of two people getting together to procreate. It is about pledging the desire to spend the rest of your life with one person. That's not a gender specific concept. Religion is the one saying that marriage is man and woman. If man and women don't marry and procreate, and teach the religion to the child, you won't be able to perpetuate the religion. Why do you think it's a sin in Catholicism to "spill your seed"? If you masturbate, you are not procreating thus no perpetuation. Gay has been around a hell of a lot longer then Christianity. If I remember right, Christ's teachings were to love and accept everyone! All you religious hypocrites really need to understand what the original teachings were all about, not what they have become by years of people bending the message to their view of the world. There are religions in this very country where women can't be priests. Did God make that rule? Didn't he make women? So somehow women aren't qualified to commune with him? Religion was made by people, for people, and interpreted by people. The bible wasn't even written while Jesus was alive yet its a true story?
I agree that laws need to exist, if only because humans are flawed, but we also need to take care to understand WHY we are making the laws and what those laws will ultimately accomplish and what will be their effect.

The one thing I will give the whole discussion of this topic is the very point that the author is trying to make, we discuss. We question each other, disagree with each other. We explore ideas and feelings. The Constitution has given us the right to write. The right to disagree, the right to question. As long as we continue to do that, we hold the system accountable. I may not agree with what you have to say, and I definitely don't agree with someo of the people in this topic, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. That's what this country is all about.




Nothing to hide
By snowoutside on 1/9/2009 5:44:55 AM , Rating: 2
"Nothing to hide" was the slogan for the latest Chaos Communication Congress conference in Berlin, December 2008.

Most conferences can be watched on-line, missing recordings will probably be uploaded soon. Some of them are very technical (for hackers only), but others are interesting for a larger audience, including subjects like privacy and surveillance. The recordings can be downloaded here:
http://events.ccc.de/congress/2008/wiki/Conference...
Some suggestions: 2665, 2991, 2873, 2979, 2899, 3032.
Here is the schedule: http://events.ccc.de/congress/2008/Fahrplan/




UK e-mail law 'attack on rights'
By Ictor on 1/10/2009 2:08:37 AM , Rating: 2
Honestly...
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 1/7/2009 10:59:19 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
The reasons why these developments are a genuinely Bad Thing™ should be both multitude and obvious.


Should be:

The reasons these developments are genuinely a bad thing are legion, and should be obvious.

They should not be "multitude" so remove the parallel structure. Reasons why is redundant.




By drunkenmastermind on 1/8/2009 6:47:07 PM , Rating: 1
When the government doesn't even police themselves? Governments are corrupt and opaque, yet they demand transparency of our lives? They work in a covert manner and serve themselves and one another. Fuck all the world government who abuse their power and wield it against the inhabitants by lying, cheating, stealing, raping, killing and profiting. Fuck you ALL!




is this...
By Dreifort on 1/7/09, Rating: -1
is this...
By Dreifort on 1/7/09, Rating: -1
"Intel is investing heavily (think gazillions of dollars and bazillions of engineering man hours) in resources to create an Intel host controllers spec in order to speed time to market of the USB 3.0 technology." -- Intel blogger Nick Knupffer














botimage
Copyright 2009 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki