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UC Davis's plug-in Prius  (Source: Chronicle, Deanne Fitzmaurice)
UC Davis dares to go where Toyota won't with the Prius

Yesterday, DailyTech brought you news of Fisker's exciting new Hybrid Premium Sports Sedan (HPSS). The sexy four-door promises an all-electric range of up to 50 miles and combined range of 620 miles when the electric motors are working in conjunction with a diesel or gasoline engine.

Today, however, DailyTech is bringing the hybrid news back to more realistic levels with the more plebian plug-in hybrid Toyota Prius. One hundred members of the Northern California AAA will be given eight-week loans of a modified Toyota Prius with lithium-ion battery packs and plug-in capabilities.

UC Davis Institute of Transportation Studies' Plug-In Hybrid Center is sponsoring the program which will begin in spring 2008.

"This is the first large consumer study of plug-in hybrids. We're the advance guard of putting a lot of these [cars] in households," said center director Tom Turrentine.
Over the course of the entire program, one hundred families will share ten Priuses -- each of which costs $15,000 USD to convert to lithium-ion/plug-in form. The conversions are performed at Pat's Garage in San Francisco.

When equipped with lithium-ion batteries that have been fully topped off via overnight charging, the modified Priuses are said to achieve 100 MPG -- a figure that is routinely inflated thanks to the plug-in nature of the vehicle.

Households that are selected to receive a plug-in Prius are required to have a daily commute of 20 to 120 miles and access to a 110-volt outlet for overnight charging.

Also, AAA members who wish to be selected for the program should be prepared to show a heightened level of enthusiasm for hybrids or at least watch "Smug Alert!" before the interview process starts.

"We're going to be interviewing households every week," continued Turrentine. "We want to know how people respond to the car. Are they excited because it is cheaper [to operate]? Are they excited because they are saving the world?"

Independent companies and research labs have been at the forefront of outfitting Toyota's Prius with plug-in technology. Lithium Technology Corporation (LTC) showed off a Prius that was retrofitted with plug-in capabilities and 63 of its LiFePO4 cells. LTC proclaimed that the battery pack was good enough to give the Prius an estimated EPA rating of 125 MPG.

Toyota, obviously aware of the benefits provided with such tech, has seen fit to start its own factory-backed trial run of plug-in Priuses.

Toyota still, however, has not embraced lithium-ion batteries. The company has expressed safety concerns with the batteries and will not use them for its next generation Prius.

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What happens in the winter?
By fleshconsumed on 11/1/2007 9:30:52 AM , Rating: 2
OK, this is CA, it never gets cold there. However, what about other states that see sub 32 degree temperatures and the car won't run because Li-Ion battery is too cold to provide proper voltage? Or is this not a problem for current Li-Ion plug ins?




RE: What happens in the winter?
By SunAngel on 11/1/2007 9:44:11 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
OK, this is CA, it never gets cold there .


hehe, lol!

some people can never be helped, for everyone else there's MasterCard.


RE: What happens in the winter?
By omnicronx on 11/1/2007 9:52:41 AM , Rating: 5
Nobody called the grammar police..


RE: What happens in the winter?
By crimson117 on 11/1/2007 10:31:42 AM , Rating: 5
That's not even a grammatical error.

"OK, this is CA, it never gets cold there."

He didn't say "OK, [I am here in CA], it never gets cold there."

He said, "OK, [keep in mind] this is CA [that we're talking about], it never gets cold there."


RE: What happens in the winter?
By SunAngel on 11/1/2007 10:53:32 AM , Rating: 2
thanks. it doesn't seem so funny now that you taken over his/her thoughts.


RE: What happens in the winter?
By fifolo on 11/1/2007 6:52:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:

thanks. it doesn't seem so funny now that you have taken over his/her thoughts.


There, fixed it for you. That was nice, wasn't it? Now get back to the hall; I think I saw a kid run into the bathroom without a pass.


By hannibal the mechanical bull on 11/6/2007 9:39:07 AM , Rating: 2
"thanks. it doesn't seem so funny now that you taken over his/her thoughts."

LOL !


RE: What happens in the winter?
By omnicronx on 11/1/2007 9:47:53 AM , Rating: 2
Nobody ever said the car is to use the li-ion batteries to start the car. It will still use the combustion engine in someway, whether it be the old way of spark plug fires and ignites the fuel, or the way of say the GM-Volt, where the fuel is compressed within a chamber and is able to ignite by pressure.

Regardless, I am sure engineers are very aware of the shortcomings of li-ion batteries in the cold.


RE: What happens in the winter?
By masher2 (blog) on 11/1/2007 10:25:43 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, the previous poster was referring to the fact that cold batteries hold less charge. It's a range issue, not one with starting.

However LiIon batteries do better here than NiMH, so I'm not sure how much of an issue it will be.


RE: What happens in the winter?
By clovell on 11/1/2007 10:46:35 AM , Rating: 1
It wasn't explicitly stated in the article, but I have to ask - is this modified Prius still a serial hybrid after this conversion?


RE: What happens in the winter?
By masher2 (blog) on 11/1/2007 11:04:07 AM , Rating: 2
I think you mean still a parallel hybrid. And I would think the answer is yes...they simply changed the battery pack. Changing it to a serial hybrid would require large changes in many other areas.


RE: What happens in the winter?
By clovell on 11/1/2007 3:07:20 PM , Rating: 1
Oh, snap - yeah, sorry for the misspeak - I was thinking the same thing - they'd have to tear out the entire Synergy Drive and rebuild the drivetrain for a series conversion.

Personally, I'm looking forward to serial hybrids much more - Serials should be easier to work on.


RE: What happens in the winter?
By Samus on 11/1/2007 6:29:19 PM , Rating: 2
The petrolium industry probably wont let manufactures produce serial hybrids because they benifit the consumer too much by giving them choices over how their car functions./sarcasm

But really, it's pretty complicated to be able to turn off one of the two power plants and still have them work together efficiently when they are in parallel...but a lot of plug-in conversions have pulled it off, just not this one because they need reliability and low cost. They did make 10 of them, which cost them at least .5 million to purchase the cars, engineer, develope, and implement upgraded batts.


RE: What happens in the winter?
By omnicronx on 11/1/2007 11:05:07 AM , Rating: 2
I really doubt it will be that much of an issue, of course the range of the car will be lower in lower temperatures, but the same can be said of any combustion engine. I live in Canada and I notice a difference of up to 1/4 the gas millage in the winter, on just about any car I drive. Also as you said, NiMh batteries are no worse than LiIon, and current hybrid users only complain about the gas engine being on for a little longer than usual after startup.


By mendocinosummit on 11/1/2007 10:35:55 AM , Rating: 2
Li-Ion goes to 0 and Alkaline goes to 32. I rarely gets to 0 in majority of California. I just wouldn't take them to the Sierra's. Also, you still have a gas engine to heat the battery if needed.


RE: What happens in the winter?
By Cygni on 11/1/2007 11:44:10 AM , Rating: 5
So nobody else is going to point out that this is NORTHERN California, where the daily low is routinely 30 degrees F or lower during the winter... and thats to say nothing of the foothills or Sierras that top out well below freezing daily for months.

Seriously, why are people still so ignorant about California? The state is huge, it doesnt all have the climate of San Diego.

For you east coasters, do Savannah, Georgia and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania have the same climate? Because thats roughly the same amount of geographical separation we are talking about, to say nothing of the much more wildly varied topography of California.


RE: What happens in the winter?
By jskirwin on 11/1/2007 12:32:29 PM , Rating: 1
Chill dude.
Many of us East Coasters have lived in or visited California and are quite familiar with the geography of your state.


RE: What happens in the winter?
By omnicronx on 11/1/2007 1:07:42 PM , Rating: 2
Speak for yourself, until the OP opened my eyes, I thought Cali was located somewhere between Antarctica and South America. Thanks for the clarification, I will be forever in your debt.<\sarcasm>

Best part is the OP specifically said places where the temperatures are below freezing normally, and last time i checked sometimes having lows up to 32F is not normally below freezing. (his words not mine) Cali is generally warmer than other more northern states like Minnesota or Michigan.. you don't know cold until its -40 outside and what little sweat your body is creating results in your pants sticking to your body.


RE: What happens in the winter?
By andrinoaa on 11/1/2007 6:56:26 PM , Rating: 1
Revenge is a dish best served cold!
Where the F*** is CA?
PS who is GW?
LOL


By murphyslabrat on 11/1/2007 2:54:34 PM , Rating: 2
That's the problem: no one sees how chilled he can get.


RE: What happens in the winter?
By Anonymous Freak on 11/1/2007 11:39:30 PM , Rating: 2
Well, in the existing Prius, it has a fan to make sure the battery pack doesn't get [i]too hot[/i]. So I imagine the only time it would REALLY matter is if you left it parked on the curb for a few days, in which case, you would just not have as high energy capacity from the batteries until they had warmed up.

The fact that the entire concept of this is that you plug it in at night means that it will have a power source at night, therefore it would be trivial to add a small heater to make sure the batteries stay at 'optimal temperature' at night. Heck, they could add a Catalytic Converter heater, too, which would help with emissions while the car is operating on gas. That's one of the other design goals of the Prius, low emissions. As such, it tries to keep the Cat hot at all times, meaning in cold climates, it will often turn the engine on solely to keep the exhaust system warm, even if you didn't actually need gas power. It's also why the Prius always enters 'warm-up' mode the first time you turn it on. If it had an electric heat going, maybe it could do away with this 'warm up' each morning.

I know that on particularly cold days, my Prius' engine runs continuously for the first five minutes of my drive, whereas on a warm summer day, it would only run for about one minute. Because of the terrain around my house, I can go for five or more minutes before needing to use the gas engine for POWER, so the only reason it's on before that is the "warm up" process.


By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 11/2/2007 12:01:16 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, Toyota hybrids use cabin air to regulate the temperature of the batteries. The package shelf on my Camry hybrid has a huge hood scoop to take in the cabin air. This keeps them cool in the Summer and warm in the Winter. So the charging heater would be the only needed addition here.


Is that all?
By FITCamaro on 11/1/2007 10:28:27 AM , Rating: 2
Only $15,000 dollars to convert to lithium ion and plugin huh?




RE: Is that all?
By theapparition on 11/1/2007 12:05:32 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed,
And how long to recoup that 15,000 investment?
Even if you save 1,000 a year in gas costs, that's 15 years to break even. Add to that the increase in electricity costs to charge the batteries, in a state that is already critically underpowered. Sorry, very dumb investment.

I'm all for conserving energy and our environment, when it makes sense. Problem is, most conservation efforts don't. There's usually a hidden agenda, and the "fix" often is more harmful in the long run that the original "problem".

Funny how most people here rally against big American engines, state that they're inefficient, and would have them banned. Yet the same people would cry bloody murder if you tried to take away their 8800Ultra SLI rig, running 24/7.
Hypocrites.....


RE: Is that all?
By FITCamaro on 11/1/2007 12:20:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yet the same people would cry bloody murder if you tried to take away their 8800Ultra SLI rig, running 24/7.


You realize even a top of the line rig adds up to just a few bucks on your power bill right? If that. Turning my ceiling fans off affects my power bill more than my PC.


RE: Is that all?
By jskirwin on 11/1/2007 12:39:01 PM , Rating: 2
FIT
Dunno about that. He'd need at least a 750w PSU; plus he could probably use it as a space heater in winter from all the heat generated by it, leading to higher cooling costs in summer.


RE: Is that all?
By FITCamaro on 11/1/2007 3:34:14 PM , Rating: 2
I have a 750W PSU with an E6600 @ 3GHz, 2GB RAM, 5 hard drives, 2 DVD burners, an X1950XTX, water cooling system, and Audigy sound card. My power bill isn't affected by my system being on at all.

Oh any my other system which is on almost 24/7/365 is an X2 3800+, 1GB RAM, 5 hard drives, 7600GT, and an Audigy.

I built a friend of mines system with a Q6600, 4GB RAM, 4 hard drives, 2 DVD burners, 2 x 8800GTS 640MB running Vista Ultimate x64. He had a 900W or so battery backup and with the system on, it wasn't at half load.


RE: Is that all?
By FITCamaro on 11/1/2007 3:37:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
My power bill isn't affected by my system being on at all.


I should say my power bill isn't noticeably affected.


RE: Is that all?
By jskirwin on 11/1/2007 12:44:57 PM , Rating: 2
Figure just the PSU is sucking up 750w per hour=.75kw/hr = 18kwhrs/day.

Electricity is running about $.11/kwhr in my area, so that's roughly $2/day.

That excludes cooling costs generated by all the heat produced by the unit, but also assumes his rig is running at the max power draw at all times.


RE: Is that all?
By Screwballl on 11/1/2007 1:07:00 PM , Rating: 4
agreed... if you want to test this yourself, go get a "Kill-a-watt" device.

Heres some numbers:

E6600, GA-965P-DS3, 2GB DDR2-667, X1950GT video, 1x 320GB hd, 3x 12cm case fans, HX520W Corsair PSU:
120V, 0.36A, 27W , 44 VA, 0.61-0.62 PF
So thats 27Watts being used, almost the same as a 25watt lightbulb.

but as computers get older they lose their efficiency:

XP3000+, A7N8X, 1GB PC3200, 9600XT video, 1x 160GB hd, 5x 80cm case fans, 350W Antec Smart Blue psu:
119.5-120V, 1.73A, 137W , 206 VA, 0.66-0.67 PF

XP-M 2600+, Biostar M7VIGPro400, 1GB PC3200, older Quadro video, 1x 40GB hd, 1 case fan, cheap mATX 125W PSU:
119.5V, 1.42-1.44A, 109-112W , 166-172VA, 0.65 PF

Dell 8200 P4 1.8GHz, 512MB RDRAM PC800, MX420 video, 1x 60GB hd, 1x 90cm case fan, 200W Dell psu:
120V, 1.26-1.29A, 119W , 153VA, 0.78 PF

Each of these computers have been run almost 24/7 since they were built, each of them around 3 years now except the E6600 system. Thats 4 systems for under 400W total. Also these numbers are with each system at full load (including that 27W which really surprised me).

Typical wattages for various ceiling fan sizes are:

* 36" = 55 watts
* 48" = 75 watts
* 52" = 90 watts
* 56" = 100 watts

So if your house has 5 rooms with a 52" fan in each, thats 450Watts, more than the computers. Add in all the lightbulbs in each of these fans and you likely have 600+ Watts if all turned on at the same time.

So given a single room, the ceiling fan itself is about even with a normal home computer, turn on the lights (with 4-5 bulbs) and it takes about as much power as a higher end gaming computer.
Its not until you hit the SLI or Crossfire (with X2000 series) that you see 300+ Watts from a computer during gaming. During idle time though it is still about the same as ceiling fan with lights on.


RE: Is that all?
By omnicronx on 11/1/2007 1:20:39 PM , Rating: 1
Are you really implying your psu runs at only 27W at load?
Which would include your e6600, your x1950GT video card, and other power draining hardware? the TDP rating of just the processor is higher than 27w, I find this very unlikely.


RE: Is that all?
By masher2 (blog) on 11/1/2007 1:23:02 PM , Rating: 4
I'm sorry, but if you're measuring an E6600 with X1950GT and 2GB of RAM at 27 watts power consumption under load, there's a serious problem with your meter. The RAM alone is going to consume close to 20 watts, probably more at the outlet level, when PSU losses are factored in.

A * real * value for an E600 system under load (as verified by hundreds of sites which have tested it) is more on the range of 140-160 watts. A high-end gaming rig can easily pull double that.

quote:
So given a single room, the ceiling fan itself is about even with a normal home computer
I see that you got your values from http://www.progress-energy.com/custservice/carres/... (first hit in Google). But you have to realize your average consumer doesn't run a 56" ceiling fan on high-power. Your average fan is about 42" and on low power, its going to pull less than 20 watts.


RE: Is that all?
By Screwballl on 11/3/2007 8:35:35 AM , Rating: 2
I have tested it with 2 different multimeters and a different Kill-a-watt and each say the same thing.
I wish I could say that I had a faulty meter but when all tests point to the same thing, there must be some other load reducing component in that PSU...
Wish I knew but those are the numbers.


RE: Is that all?
By FITCamaro on 11/1/2007 3:39:35 PM , Rating: 2
They're probably 36" fans and I live in a 1 bedroom apartment. 2 fans.


RE: Is that all?
By RubberJohnny on 11/1/2007 10:57:40 PM , Rating: 2
So is that 1 fan for you, and 1 to cool those 10 hardrives you got ?!?!


RE: Is that all?
By FITCamaro on 11/2/2007 7:04:35 AM , Rating: 2
2 250GB drives, 3 160GB drives, 2 500GB drives, a 120GB drive, 2 74GB Raptors.....

Everyone doesn't have that many? :)

Oh and an external 250GB backup drive and a 120GB drive in my Xbox (not the one in my 360 Elite, my original Xbox).


RE: Is that all?
By theapparition on 11/2/2007 12:24:35 AM , Rating: 2
Let's not get off topic. My point wasn't to do a complete calculation, but if you really want one:

Assuming that high end rig runs 400W more than is "necessary" for an average computer, than that's 400W x 24hrs x 30.5days = 292.8KWhrs @ $.11/KWhr = $32.21/month.
Over a year, you've just spent close to $400 extra. Just a little more than your "few bucks".

That's assuming that the system is running full bore 24/7, which admittedly is unrealistic. That was never my point though. My point was that someone with that sort of rig was wasting power, and as some would have you belive, any wasted power is a sin.

Who decides what you should choose to buy? If the government comes in and prohibits choice of cars based on efficiency, then why stop there. Why not have to prove to the government that you really need a high end PC (sorry kid, but recreational gaming is not an approved use on form 18774-12 schedule B. You'll have to fill out exception form 1382 and wait for the background check.....). How about limiting the number of computers in your home, or giving quotas of electricity and when you go over, your home goes dark. Sounds stupid, but all of these have already been proposed as viable options by "enviromentalists".

Once again, my original point was that I think spending an additional 15K on a car that will be impossible to return the investment is not a good decision. And for all of those here that think switching to plug-ins will be the solution are just plain too short-sighted to see the long term reprocussions. And many of those that advocate these changes also have high powered gaming systems and large TV's with 1000W surround systems (I remember some screen names and what they've posted previously). I call them hypocites, because that's exactly what they are. If your going to advocate energy consumption, than practice it fully, or shut the hell up.

Not trying to go on a rant here FIT, and I know your not one of the eco-freaks, but we have to draw the line on what were willing to regulate. I belive that you should be able to buy anything legal you want, and the price for operating it will be power. If I want to buy a Ferrari that gets 6mpg, than it's my choice. I also have to pay for that gas, pay the gas guzzler tax (which I support), and pay outrageous insurance prices. That's my choice to pay it, or not to. That's what America is all about. It very well may be excess, but that's also why the American worker works far more hours than corresponding European counterparts. This is still a land of opportunity, and if your willing to work for it, the sky is the limit.

As a side note, a local dealer actually has a Ferrari F40. Drove it last week and am seriously considering it!


RE: Is that all?
By FITCamaro on 11/2/2007 7:08:20 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
As a side note, a local dealer actually has a Ferrari F40. Drove it last week and am seriously considering it!


Wanna just pay off my car and buy a Z06 instead?


RE: Is that all?
By theapparition on 11/2/2007 9:24:29 AM , Rating: 2
I already have a 2007 Z06, with an ECS Paxton Novi 2000 supercharger, with Vette Dr's tune, running over 800rwhp. This is my daily good weather car. For bad weather, or for a change, take the 2001 TransAm with TFS heads and 236/232 114 LSA cam.
Also have 08 JSB Convertible (stock, wife's car), and a C5 with 427 LSx supercharged forged block, coil over susupension, and all the extra goddies putting down over 1000rwhp for drag racing and yes, daily driving. The wife's daily kid mobile is a Trailblazer SS.

So, I'm not normal, by any stretch. I love cars, particuarly Corvettes and Camaro/TransAm. I'd love to buy an old 60's camaro and do a complete restore, but that's not in my time budget anytime soon. I can barely find time to drive in some HPDE's as it is.

I've been very fortunate that my company has done so well, and each year I've been signifigantly growing the business. The last 2/3 years have taken off. I grew up in love with the F40, still one of my favorite body designs ever. It's one of the purest sports cars ever made, but at 20 years old and a "measly" ~400rwhp, it feels slow compared my other cars. I'm sitting on the fence, the price isn't that bad (for a F40, I've seen some prices in Hemmings that were outrageous). It's really an aweful car on anything but a track, but even so, I want it. We'll see.


RE: Is that all?
By Lord 666 on 11/3/2007 11:18:03 PM , Rating: 2
Not interested in the 959 instead?

I had the chance to drive one on local streets many years ago and is one of my fondest memories growing up. One day I will hope to own one.


RE: Is that all?
By theapparition on 11/5/2007 11:09:00 AM , Rating: 2
You mean try and purchase one of the less than 30 cars that exist in the US and are not emissions legal/road legal? Overall, under 300 were made, and very few were imported due to higher US safety and emmissions standards. The car is still illegal to drive in the US, unless you are going to a car show (display and show exemption). The 959 is pretty exclusive. There are also ways to convert them to being emmissions legal, but they still have never been safety tested, and for many states, not allowed on the road.

While the F40 is not quite as exclusive, it is road legal. I don't show cars, so I don't care about that. Also (just my personal preference), I like the looks of the F40 better. Truthfully, I can get much better performance out of my Z06, but it's the car I fell in love with growing up. Also, it can be an investment.

There are plenty of "fake" 959's with body kits. If you can find a real 959, and have the chance, grab it! I know what you mean about having fond memories of a certain car.


RE: Is that all?
By Lord 666 on 11/6/2007 3:58:11 AM , Rating: 2
Here is one, not too far from my house either:

http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/po...

Around my town, there are three Carrera GTs, but not have made friends with the owners yet.


RE: Is that all?
By omnicronx on 11/1/2007 1:13:07 PM , Rating: 2
They are talking about converting existing NiMH hybrids into li-ion/plug in. If li-ion were implemented in the first place, I really doubt it would cost anywhere close to 15k more. Theres no reason to believe that a production model of this car would cost any significant amount more than its predecessor.(not that its going to happen anytime soon)

I bet converting a Blender into a microwave would cost 15K too ;)


RE: Is that all?
By theapparition on 11/2/2007 12:30:06 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
They are talking about converting existing NiMH hybrids into li-ion/plug in. If li-ion were implemented in the first place, I really doubt it would cost anywhere close to 15k more.

A battery swap in a hybrid is about as simple as it can get. You swap batteries, and replace the charging system with one that is compatible with Li-ion. I'm sure there are R&D costs, and the actual retrofit is adding additional expense, but I'd be willing to wager that a minimum of 50% of that cost, is the batteries alone. So it would take a minimum 7K premium over the existing models to come like this from the factory.


Prius hidden cost
By twnorow on 11/1/2007 11:43:36 AM , Rating: 3
I used to work with a liberal who bought a used Prius. I guess he thought he was doing his part to save the planet. After two years and several major problems, he tried to sell it - but had no takers. I could have told him (but I didn't because of all the diatribe I had to endure from his spawn-of-satan mentors at MoveOn.org) that the battery pack was nearing the end of it's useful life and according to the dealership parts department that a replacement would cost about $5,400! Here's an example of being burned because of blind stupidity. Further, I could have told him that the manufacturing process of these types of batteries produces even more toxic waste than regular batteries. Again, I didn't because of his shallow, closed and easily manipulated mind. Interestingly, the article made no mention of Prius paying the folks in California to do their testing for them.

The way I see it, you should avoid buying a Prius because after three or four years, you'll have a very low trade in value because the dealers will have to replace that pesky FIVE THOUSAND DOLLAR battery.

And finally, a friendly note to the dailytech thought police: imposing political correctness (whatever that is) standards on speech is the liberal and cowardly way of trying to engage in covert CENSORSHIP.




RE: Prius hidden cost
By Phynaz on 11/1/2007 12:26:37 PM , Rating: 1
The battery pack of a Prius has an eight year warranty. Nobody has to spend $5,000 after three or four years.

Used Priuses around here go for almost the price of a new one.


RE: Prius hidden cost
By FITCamaro on 11/1/2007 12:29:05 PM , Rating: 1
I'm willing to bet theres conditions on that warranty.


RE: Prius hidden cost
By FITCamaro on 11/1/2007 12:26:58 PM , Rating: 2
Damn. I knew those batteries were expensive. Figured around $4000 though. My first two cars combined didn't cost $5400.

quote:
And finally, a friendly note to the dailytech thought police: imposing political correctness (whatever that is) standards on speech is the liberal and cowardly way of trying to engage in covert CENSORSHIP.


See thats why I consider myself more of a conservative. We're not covert about it. If we want you to shut up, we kill you.


RE: Prius hidden cost
By jskirwin on 11/1/2007 12:35:55 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
See thats why I consider myself more of a conservative. We're not covert about it. If we want you to shut up, we kill you.


Yep. Why do you think we all support the 2nd Amendment?


RE: Prius hidden cost
By saechaka on 11/1/2007 2:48:41 PM , Rating: 2
well after 2 yrs of ownership on my 05 w/112,000 miles. so far i've had to do standard oil changes at 5,000 mile interval. i've since changed to 10,000 mile change intervals after my warranty expired. i've had my brake actuator replaced under warranty. i'm due to have my radiator fluid and invertor fluid changed. other than pretty much standard maintenance, no hidden costs yet. i'm still waiting to replace these darn original brake pads. seems they'll never wear out. i guess i'm a lucky prius owner


RE: Prius hidden cost
By clovell on 11/1/2007 3:15:22 PM , Rating: 1
112k on original pads? Shens.


RE: Prius hidden cost
By saechaka on 11/1/2007 6:28:38 PM , Rating: 2
shens? are you calling me a liar? this car uses regenerative braking hence less use of brake pads. hitting 112,000 miles on original brake pads is nothing new w/the 2nd gen prius. i've heard of people going higher. hell, i may hit 150,000 miles before i need a change.


RE: Prius hidden cost
By Alexstarfire on 11/1/2007 6:57:17 PM , Rating: 3
I'm the same story as saechaka, cept I own an '02 model. Bought it used for $15.5k /w 38k miles and I think it's a steal. I've been averaging nearly 59MPG since I started recording it about the start of this year. I say that's fairly good for my model considering it's new EPA estimate is 41MPG combined.

Anyways, I've done a 5k mile oil change, the first one, and 2 10k mile oil changes. The two biggest things I've done on this car is get new tires, 3 of them because of nails/screws/road debris and the last 1 just so I'd have a whole new set, and an alignment because I bought the car used. That's it. That's all I've had spent on the car.

I think you're one of those people that read the CNW Marketing Research article/paper "Dust to dust" and believes every word he read. Probably didn't even notice that the Hummer had an expected life of over 3x times more than the Prius, about 100K miles for the Prius to 300k for the Hummer. Forget the fact that very few people have actually had to replace their batteries just because they died out/got old. It's true that making the batteries isn't the cleanest thing and I'm sure you'll mention the factory that makes it. Don't forget though that the factory was their long before Toyota started using them, and that Toyota isn't the only one using the factory. Hell, the majority of the stuff the factory makes doesn't even go to Toyota. Ohh, and the batteries don't cost $5.4k, they are closer to $3k. They did use to be over $10k though, but that was in 2001.

I'm sure we could all go around and find some unlucky person who had to get a brand new car, or at least a lot of hassle, because something went wrong with their car. It could happen in all makes and models. You have to look at it on a whole though. And on whole, the Prius battery packs are pretty solid.

The one thing that I can say that I dislike about the Prius is the fact that it's MPG varies between winter and summer due to the temperature differences. The colder it gets, the more the engine has to run to keep the catalytic converter warm. It happens to all cars, but since most cars don't turn their engines off it's usually quite unnoticeable.


RE: Prius hidden cost
By Felofasofa on 11/1/2007 8:18:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
liberal and cowardly way of trying to engage in covert CENSORSHIP.

How come "liberal" is such a dirty word in America? Our main right wing political party (currently in Govt.) are called "The Liberal" Party of Aust. It seems to have far more association with the left in the States.


One minor concern
By killerroach on 11/1/2007 8:26:25 AM , Rating: 4
This is a great program idea for a field test, just I'm not sure on the effectiveness of having a plug-in hybrid tested in Northern California (or anywhere in California, for that matter), where high electricity costs are the norm, muting any possible economic benefit.

That being said, California does have a relatively clean power generation mix (almost no coal and about 50% from natural gas), so the environmental benefits could be touted relatively easily in lieu of any cost advantage (as opposed to a state like Michigan, which has cheaper electricity, but the majority of it coming from coal).

I'll keep an eye on this study, as the economist side of me wonders what the desirability (and, by extension, the market willingness to pay) will be for these technologies.




RE: One minor concern
By Spivonious on 11/1/2007 9:09:56 AM , Rating: 2
Even with high electric costs, I'm sure it's cheaper than gasoline.


RE: One minor concern
By Omega215D on 11/1/2007 9:23:02 AM , Rating: 2
620 makes its appearance again. First it was Fisker's car now the Prius. Of course the Prius seems to be more plausible.

I wonder if the EPA will actually start getting realistic with their ratings system.


RE: One minor concern
By FITCamaro on 11/1/2007 10:32:40 AM , Rating: 2
What does a cars range on a tank of fuel have to do with the EPA? Thats all that 620 number is.

Now the 100 mpg figure, that's grossly overstated. With a plug in hybrid, if you solely used the batteries you could achieve infinite mpg potentially. The Chevy Volt has this possibility since the gas motor isn't used to drive the car. Only recharge the batteries when power is low. So you plug it in nightly and provided you don't drive past the range of its batteries, it won't use any gas.

I see an issue there though since its bad for gas to sit in your tank for a few months. Sludge starts to build up.


RE: One minor concern
By killerroach on 11/1/2007 4:01:25 PM , Rating: 2
Although a poor measure due to differences in efficiency of the engines, on a BTU-for-BTU basis, the national average electrical cost equals out to being about the equivalent of $3.60 a gallon gasoline. Considering electrical costs in California, depending on the part of the state, make that closer to $4.50-$7.00 a gallon. Not sure on the exact conversions due to efficiency, but I would probably cut the actual costs down by 25-35%, which would make it relatively close, but still not quite to parity with gasoline.

Mark my words, though: if the trend for gas prices continues, we'll be seeing a lot more plug-in hybrids, and not just as part of experimental tests and niche markets.


RE: One minor concern
By masher2 (blog) on 11/1/2007 4:35:04 PM , Rating: 2
> "on a BTU-for-BTU basis, the national average electrical cost equals out to being about the equivalent of $3.60 a gallon gasoline"

A very poor metric, as an electric motor can be upwards of 95% efficient, whereas your average car's ICE is lucky to hit 25%.

If one ignores the greater cost of the cars themselves, operating a plug-in hybrid is substantially cheaper, per mile, than a gas-powered auto.


Give me a break
By Ammohunt on 11/1/2007 3:17:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Are they excited because they are saving the world?


Puuleeez! I drive my Prius becasue i have a 175 mile round trip commute and gas is $3 a gallon. I could give a rats ass about carbon emissions.




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